Why I am so upset about the FISA cave in. Goes back to 2003 and even earlier.

[madfloridian]

Why we should all be upset...it goes to the heart of who we are as a party.

The Democratic party has a mindset that no one can change. They think they must go right, and that they must abandon their base in order to win a general election. This has been pounded into their heads for decades, it is just simply what they do.

I have been upset about the FISA cave in, and I have made no secret about it. I feel betrayed, like my party has an agenda that is done in secret and by people who don't respect us enough to admit that a new deal is in the works.

One last point: in the days before he unveiled the FISA bill to the public, both Hoyer and his office were vehemently denying reports that he had negotiated and approved a deal to provide retroactive immunity to telecoms. They were even claiming that "there's been an incredible amount of misinformation out on the internet" -- don't let those reckless bloggers "on the internet" claim that Hoyer is negotiating a deal with retroactive immunity. It's not true!

Then within hours an article appeared in NYT verifying it...and Steny Hoyer went to The Politico to brag about how he rammed the FISA deal through.

Yet now, here he is boasting to The Politico about how he "was clearly the driving force in the months of arduous discussions over the FISA rewrite" and how he "shepherded a set of FISA amendments through the House last week." They not only do all of this in total secrecy -- so that the public has no opportunity to know about or comment upon the bills they're writing -- but they overtly lie about what they're doing as they're doing it.

I think John Dean may have been right on Countdown the other night. They were speaking of the FISA bill.

JOHN DEAN: Well, I think, you‘ve got to give one for the terrorists on our Fourth Amendment. They really did some damage today in this so-called compromise, contrary to what the speaker said that really does hurt the Constitution. So, it‘s very troubling and it‘s not a good day for civil liberties, particularly.

Olbermann suggests someone played the fear card.

Countdown transcript

DEAN: Well, it wouldn‘t surprise me if it had happened. You know, they have used fear very effectively. This is somewhat sudden in finally reaching a conclusion on what to do with a very troublesome problem that they have been resisting on.

It would not surprise me also if it really is what I‘ve been told, is that the conservative elements of the Democratic Party lean on the leadership and said, “Listen, we‘ve got some really tough opponents from Republicans in close districts. We need this. We don‘t want to have this hanging over our head. Let‘s get it solved now before it‘s too late.”

There you go. The old tactic of turning right to win. The powers that be say we can't win by being ourselves, so we need to take the talking points from the right.

I remember in 2003 how my husband and I became so involved in the Dean Campaign. We lived here in this stunningly fundamentalist area of Florida....and Dean's words of truth in early 2003 were like a breath of fresh air.

That is when we became aware of the hijacking of our party, and we learned the hard way how much power they had.

The think tank which took us over controlled the agenda of the party from 1988 till now, setting the policy and putting forth the platform. They intend to keep doing it.

"freed... from positions making it difficult for us to win."...Simon Rosenberg.

They are getting corporate money and money from sources that will enable them to win without the base. Here's what a founder of the DLC said about their reason for being.

"Simon Rosenberg, the former field director for the DLC who directs the New Democrat Network, a spin-off political action committee, says, "We're trying to raise money to help them lessen their reliance on traditional interest groups in the Democratic Party. In that way," he adds, "they are ideologically freed, frankly, from taking positions that make it difficult for Democrats to win."

If you don't have to please your base, you can stand for anything...as long as you get that money from corporations.

And from July 2003:An admonition to the supporters of Howard Dean and to Dean himself about who was who in the party. A real slap down.

Every weekend, yet another special-interest group hosts a candidate forum to pressure the presidential candidates into praising its agenda. Some of the candidates seem intent on running applause-meter campaigns, measuring success by how many times they tell the party faithful what they want to hear.

There's one big problem with this strategy: Most of those party activists the candidates are trying so hard to please are wildly out of touch not only with middle America but with the Democratic rank and file. The great myth of the campaign is the misguided notion that the hopes and dreams of party activists and single-issue groups represent the heart and soul of the Democratic Party. They don't.

Actually, yes they do. Our hopes and dreams as activists and single issue groups are very much in line with the hopes and dreams of our party as a whole. But Mr. Al From has managed to convince the party leaders and those in Congress otherwise...until they just vote against their own constituents easily.

AND the icing on the cake from May 2003, which was even mocked by Howard Fineman on Hardball. Can't access this in the Dean campaign archives, but I saved the statement.

"FINEMAN ON THE DLC MEMO
I went and read the memo. It's hysterical. I don't mean funny. I mean, it's hysterical. He calls them everything but a plagiarist, an elitist, an activist. It's like, it's a compliment to Howard Dean. They're reacting like Howard Dean has already won the nomination. Howard Fineman, on the DLC memo attacking Howard Dean, on Hardball, 5/15/03
Posted by Mathew Gross (on the Dean blog) at 10:25 AM

This memo putting the activists in their place was mocked by the Liberal Oasis blog which changed the name to Kneecapping Howard Dean.

The DLC memo is titled "The Real Soul of the Democratic Party."

But it should be "Kneecapping Howard Dean."

However, it is so ludicrously ham-handed, Dean trumpeted it himself on his campaign web site. (A smart rapid response that bodes well for the future.)

If the memo was a principled argument over what the party should stand for, that would be fine.

You can have honorable disagreements within one's party.

But the memo is nothing but a string of half-truths and contradictions designed to ward off insiders from backing Dean, while at the same time undermine Dean's support from the Left.

Liberal Oasis

Here is the memo that was really like a warning to anyone who planned on crossing the agenda of this "think tank wing" of the party. We should not forget it or let it slip from our memory. It is very long. Excerpts do not do it justice at all.

Read all of it.

The Real Soul of the Democratic Party

But the great myth of the current cycle is the misguided notion that the hopes and dreams of activists represent the heart and soul of the Democratic Party. Real Democrats are real people, not activist elites. The mission of the Democratic Party, as Bill Clinton pledged in 1992, is to provide "real answers to the real problems of real people." Real Democrats who champion the mainstream values, national pride, and economic aspirations of middle-class and working people are the real soul of the Democratic Party, not activists and interest groups with narrow agendas.

See what I mean? Read it all.

Just a few more snips.

What activists like Dean call the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party is an aberration: the McGovern-Mondale wing, defined principally by weakness abroad and elitist, interest-group liberalism at home. That's the wing that lost 49 states in two elections, and transformed Democrats from a strong national party into a much weaker regional one.

A reminder to Mr. From. YOU were controlling the message when we lost Congress in 2000 and 2002, and you guys were meddling in Kerry's campaign in 2004. YOU, not us. It was a terror-based message, a fear-based message. We lost because the other party did it better. They are far better fear mongerers than we are.

The Dean campaign stood up against these attacks in 2003:

In 2003 Howard Dean stood for activists when the DLC called us "fringe". Dean Statement in Response to DLC's Charge that Public Servants are
"Fringe Activists"

“Once again, the DLC has chosen to put their own political agenda
ahead of the progress needed to unite the Democratic Party. This election has barely begun, and the DLC has repeatedly dismissed people who attend caucuses, who get out the vote, and now the 1.3 million members of AFSCME as ‘fringe activists’ who do not reflect ‘the mainstream values, national pride and the economic aspirations of middle-class and working people.’

“The DLC staff can say what they want about me, but they owe an
apology to the 1.3 million members of AFSCME. Our teachers, our health care workers, and our state and local public servants don't need a lesson from Washington insiders about the needs and concerns of middle- and working-class families. What they need is a Democratic Party that will stand up for them.”

Posted by Mathew Gross at 04:27 PM
Dean defends public servants and unions against being called fringe activists.

This was done to a candidate who had governed as a centrist for many years in his state. Many in our group were Republicans, and we had Greens and independents, as well as Democrats who appreciated that he stood for making our party strong again.

We need the ones now like Dodd and Feingold to stand up for the everyday person in the party when such things come up as the FISA bill....things that will impact our future privacy. Bills that blunt our hopes that the government won't be able to snoop without warrants or probable cause.

The message no longer needs to be terror-based or fear-based. We don't need to cater to a man in the White House who has no more respect. I think part of this was forced on the nominee by the conservatives in the party known as the Blue Dogs.

In my mind I know why Obama is doing what he is doing about FISA. We have our bumper sticker on the car, we will vote for him. But a lot of excitement is gone now because of the message of fear rearing its ugly head again. I felt like we as a country were coming out of a deep dark hole of insecurity. Like we could breathe again.

Now we are going back into the realms of fear and giving into the dark ways of George Bush. My mind knows why FISA is going to pass, but my heart feels betrayed all over again...just like in 2003.

[melody]

1. Will you be more upset about it when McCain wins because of the dissension this could cause?

That's what the GOP is counting on. How happy will you be then?

Yours is not the only vote Obama has to count on. He also needs people who disagree with you. Compromise is
the only way toward high office, even for the most idealistic of candidates.

[madfloridian]

2. Are you putting the blame on me? Please clarify.

Are you saying if I speak out, I will hurt his chances?

Are you saying I should watch what I say?

We have a bumper sticker, we will vote. I did not criticize Obama at all hardly...mostly the party.

Are you trying to use the right wing tactics of silencing dissent?

[thewiseguy]

3. If you are not criticizing Obama then why is this thread in the GE forum?

And I have no problems with dissent, but I think too much energy has been already invested in this.

At some point excess dissent will hurt the nominee.

[madfloridian]

4. Do you want to alert on it? Please do if it bothers you. What is "excess dissent"?

I guess we should all be silent now.

[thewiseguy]

9. Your last 5-8 threads have been exclusively on this issue

Thats what I call overkill. And yes your threads do not belong in the GE presidential forum. This has nothing to do with the presidential race.

[madfloridian]

10. The FISA bill has everything to do with the presidential race. Alert on me.

Why do you think they are rushing it to a vote?

I blame Obama less than anyone, but if he supports gutting the 4th amendment, he is complicit.

[thewiseguy]

14. No it doesnt

You have made other threads about the FISA bill that have had nothing to do with Obama and yet they are on the presidential forum.

[rodeodance]

20. It sure does.

[readmoreoften]

102. If destroying the US doesn't have anything to do with the election then nothing does.

[spanone]

123. i can't dissent enough...the democrats in congress are impotent

[jgraz]

130. Excess dissent is whatever the DLC drones don't like

I think they'd be happier if Obama helped gut the First Amendment, instead of the Fourth.

[melody]

19. YOU HAVE DRAGGED ONE ISSUE INTO THE PRESIDENTIAL FORUM

End of message

[highprincipleswork]

173. The point is that many of us believe this is a losing tactic, not a winning one.

Seems to me that the point of many people would be that this caving in, or bowing to the right, or whatever you want to call it is a losing tactic in the presidential race, not a winning one.

Certainly knocks the energy out of me and the money and the everything.

Because, at a certain point, I'm not voting for the difference I believe in. Where's the change in this? Where's the change in what the House and the Senate have done about the war and the economy and the illegalities and the forfeiture of checks and balances? Where does it all end?

I believe that standing for principle is what people are hungry for and why they are and have been supporting Obama. I believe that is why I and others chose him over some other candidates. Going against that now does not seem like a very good strategy.

I oppose appeasement, triangulation and the like. I believe the American public is way more progressive than the Democratic Party is acting right now.

How about that? What do you believe?

[CrispyQ]

177. You state:

"I believe the American public is way more progressive than the Democratic Party is acting right now."

I completely agree. I also think the American public is way more liberal than the media portrays. And, I think there are millions who are liberal, but have been brainwashed to believe that liberal is a dirty word & so they don't associate themselves with liberals because they don't stop to think what liberals really stand for. All the media has to do is claim someone is liberal & the public runs as far from that person as possible, without evaluating what that person stands for & what liberal values really are.

I know an older right wing couple who are republicans, and after voting for boosh twice, they are now completely disgusted with him and the republican party. I sent them that "Joe Conservative" essay & the woman wrote back and said, "Holy crap, I think we are liberals!" ;) The media has done a fantastic job of demonizing liberals without ever discussing exactly what it is that liberals stand for.

In 2004 I googled "why is liberal a dirty word" & this DU article was the first hit. It was how I discovered this community.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/11/23_liberal.html

[dailykoff]

191. Exactly. It's already being spun as a cave-in by the vultures

just like I was afraid it would be. And if he actually votes for it, they'll spin it as a totalitarian power grab a la Robert Mugabe, just wait. His statement last Friday was a major blunder IMHO.

[dflprincess]

5. Destroying the fourth amendment is not compromise it's betrayal.

Compromise does not mean collaborating in the destruction of the country.

[melody]

22. And when McCain pushes us all into full fascism, will you feel silly about this issue?

We're in a WAR, friend. We have to dance with the strongest side with which we agree. We aren't going to
have every issue addressed. This belongs in another forum -- NOT the Presidential one.

[dflprincess]

40. The destruction of the Constitution is not just an issue.

If both candidates are willing to do away with the document they've swore as Senators to "preserve, protect and defend" is there any real difference between them?

I'm just curious, what other part of the Constitution are you willing to drop if it's politically expedient to do so? And how much of it do you think we can do away with before it's Facism?

[melody]

56. So you're trying to suggest that McCain and Obama are the same??

Yeah, we can see how well that worked out for you guys in 2000.

[madfloridian]

67. Who is "you guys"? Weren't you one of us in 2000?

[Jakes Progress]

79. Oops. He let that slip.

He's gonna get a nasty letter from "his guys".

[readmoreoften]

103. I wonder how many of these people are republican switch over know it alls

They think Democrat is the party without the "R" and that progressive means moving into the future without visible holocausts and lots of cool tech gadgets--kind of like the 1990s hip young libertarians.

[jgraz]

131. Who says they ever "switched over"?

[OneGrassRoot]

146. bingo n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

71. A war?

Really? Looks like an occupation to me.

[truedelphi]

109. And beyond that it is stupid - the dirty little secret is that

Thirty two percent of all Americans consider themselves Democrats.

Twenty eight per cent of all Americans consider themselves Republicans

And the rest of America considers themselves to be independents.

So any candidate running for President that assumes it is the Republican vote he needs may be surprised to find that all he is doing is encouraging people to stay home.

NOBODY has won each and every election since like 1968. More people stay home than go and vote. And it looks like with obama already throwing in the towel, NOBODY has it all sewn up once again.

[jonnyblitz]

8. how in fuck is complaining about the FISA thing on a discussion

board going to cause McCain to win? you overwrought Obama worshipping drama queens make no fucking sense and are getting TIRESOME. if we care NOTHING about and remain silent on the issues then this movement becomes NOTHING but a personality cult.

[thewiseguy]

11. Maybe if these threads were posted in their appropriate forum

people would not be as upset? This is the presidential election forum. People who visit this forum are here to discuss the presidential race.

The FISA bill has nothing to do with it. So maybe people are getting upset that you have got so may threads dedicated to an issue unrelated to the presidential race on this specific forum.

[madfloridian]

12. Then alert on me. Maybe the mods will move it.

It is all about the presidential race.

[thewiseguy]

17. No its not.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the presidential race. If you look over in the discussion forum you will see that the FISA related threads are posted there. I have participated in some myself.

[madfloridian]

21. Then alert and let the mods move it. Go ahead.

.

[thewiseguy]

26. I have.

[madfloridian]

28. Why didn't you alert on this post of mine today...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2282

It is in this forum and also about FISA

[thewiseguy]

36. I am not keeping a track of every single thread of yours

And I am not an Alert freak. But since I am seeing this issue come up over and over again which leads to infighting I think now that is the best solution.

Every FISA thread should be moved to the General Discussion forum.

[madfloridian]

43. Then tell the mods your conclusion and let them handle it.

I posted a thoughtful thread, and did not attack Obama.

I simply said the enthusiasm was gone with fear tactics coming back.

So you tell the mods how to fix it.

[thewiseguy]

48. I did

How many times should I tell you that I did? Yet you come out again and tell me please tell the Mods. Well I did. :crazy:

[madfloridian]

52. Because you should tell them and quit getting so angry with me.

There is nothing wrong with my post at all.

[thewiseguy]

55. I am not angry with you.

I think you are the one who is being too defensive.

[madfloridian]

61. I am not defensive....just warding off the attacks from you guys the best I can.

You really are angry. The vote will come next week. Do you expect us all to be silent?

[ooglymoogly]

179. Why does anyone pay any attention to thewiseguy

he is a fool in fools clothing and just here to disrupt

[madfloridian]

180. He got my post moved from GDP....and it was removed

from my journal and front page. That's pretty much power.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

115. I am so sorry this

thread was moved - MadFloridian, you are correct about this being a matter of utmost importance. I can not believe how many DUers are willing to sell the Constitution down the river when all along that has been the job of the Grand Old Phucks. I have been lectured at by people here who once had some idea of what is really important. Now it is the Nancy Pelosi syndrome - IT IS OFF THE TABLE. STFU! It is really pathetic. I suspect that I will be told I too am undermining "the cause" - BULLSHIT. I am voicing a serious concern.

I had an argument on my front lawn yesterday with my rabid republican neighbor and he (in his racist nasty way said) Your BOY Obama sold your party down the river for a few votes when he went along with the FISA bill - How many votes will he lose in the end? I had to tell him that his anti black tone was noted & obvious and then tell him I agreed with feeling that I did feel "sold down the river by the man I voted for in the primary and will vote for again in November." Never have I said I would leave the party and vote for a third party or the insane McBush. But, yes. I am pissed off about the FISA bill.

Alerting on you for placing this thread in DU GE means that a lot of people here do not understand the gravity of selling the progressive voices and is another attempt to silence you and those of us who share your concern for the Constitution - it is in essence a way of shutting us down.

As I said before to you - ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DIED DEFENDING THE CONSTITUTION HAVE BEEN BACK HANDED BY THIS - THEY ARE ROLLING IN THEIR GRAVES.

[PassingFair]

165. I hope you reminded him that ALL of his "boys" are not only selling

us down the river, his team is not floating with
the current, they are PADDLING like hell downstream.

[ooglymoogly]

182. self delete wrong place

[melody]

16. Thank you, exactly n/t

[melody]

13. I'm not an Obama worshipping anything --- I'm a 48 yr old who is sick of adolescent minds

You people sit in a corner and pout because you don't get your way. You're not idealists --- you're our biggest impediment. Am I mad about the FISA vote? Hell, yes, I am. But I'm angrier by far at the GOP and put my energy into THAT direction. And no, I don't think you can do both and help the Democratic ticket four months prior to the GE.

[madfloridian]

18. Adolescent minds? Are you judging those who dissent?

[melody]

24. When he/she was judging mine.

Read notes in context.

[Missy Vixen]

176. I'll be 48 next month

Why don't you let me know when it's appropriate to dissent?

:sarcasm:

In the meantime, if you're fine with Obama's appeasing those who choose to gut the Fourth Amendment, I'm a bit worried about you.

Julie

[readmoreoften]

104. Wow must be a lot of paid Obama campaigners in here because my Ignores are on fire.

I haven't seen but one or two of these people in ANY THREAD pertaining to ANYTHING and then they concertedly pile-on to this thread. Very interesting.

[NorthCarolina]

122. Agreed, it kind of defeats the purpose of a "discussion board"

if meaningful "discussion" cannot ensue because some simply refuse to think "outside of the box".

[robinlynne]

92. bullshit. just bullshit. this is not a compromise. As Kit Bond said: We got more

than we ever could have imagined, and more than we asked for.".

[highprincipleswork]

172. The point is that many of us believe this is a losing tactic, not a winning one.

Seems to me that the point of many people would be that this caving in, or bowing to the right, or whatever you want to call it is a losing tactic in the presidential race, not a winning one.

Certainly knocks the energy out of me and the money and the everything.

Because, at a certain point, I'm not voting for the difference I believe in. Where's the change in this? Where's the change in what the House and the Senate have done about the war and the economy and the illegalities and the forfeiture of checks and balances? Where does it all end?

I believe that standing for principle is what people are hungry for and why they are and have been supporting Obama. I believe that is why I and others chose him over some other candidates. Going against that now does not seem like a very good strategy.

I oppose appeasement, triangulation and the like. I believe the American public is way more progressive than the Democratic Party is acting right now.

How about that? What do you believe?

[ooglymoogly]

178. compromising on the gun issue and even the death penalty issue

I can understand; Compromising on shredding one of the most important amendments in the constitution is quite another matter. I don't think he will lose many votes over this issue, I do think he has lost our enthusiasm.

[Ken Burch]

188. Are there any actual VOTERS who wanted Bush to get his way on FISA?

If so, who?

Can't we assume that anybody who wants corporations to be protected from lawsuits for allowing their customers to be wiretapped would be a straight-ticket Republican type?

The child-rape and gun ban things I can see as voting issues, but who would we have lost by saying no to Bush on this?

[dailykoff]

6. There are a lot of reasons to push back on FISA,

If Obama is ready to cave and give Bushco a free pass on domestic spying, what the hell won't he cave on? Waterboarding? Gitmo? Iran? It's really disturbing when you thing about it.

[truedelphi]

185. The Constitution should not be dumped just for convenience sake

And if Obama was a Constitutional scholar, he would know that.

Wait a minute, last time I looked, he was a Constitutional scholar!! So what gives?

[madfloridian]

7. Shhh...we must be careful what we say...

as the 4th amendment is gutted.

Is that what we have become? That they can give Bush more spying powers on purpose, take power from the courts, and we must be silent?

[melody]

15. And you'll be happy when McCain is elected? n/t

[dailykoff]

23. If Obama runs as a kinder, gentler McCain

he's going to lose to the real thing, and it won't be because his base didn't raise objections.

[melody]

27. He's NOT running as a kinder, gentler McCain

He has taken stands on issues that ASTOUND me. But if the far-right triggers an attack against us and they can use the terrorism issue to pound Obama into the ground, would you rather have a meaner, nastier McCain?

[dailykoff]

30. If there's a terra attack it means domestic spying doesn't prevent terra.

How hard is that to understand? You're allowing your perceptions to be managed by professional spinners.

[melody]

37. Maybe you're allowing your perceptions to be managed by the far left

I, on the other hand, understand the way primates think. If we do not stick together, the other side will win
-- because they ALWAYS stick together. We'll nitpick each other into another damned defeat.

[dailykoff]

39. What on earth are you talking about?

This is an election, not biology homework.

[melody]

42. EVERYTHING is motivated by our psychology -- elections more than anything else

Or are you so ill-informed you don't realize that?

[dailykoff]

44. Oh brother. You really need to turn off the TV.

If you think Obama needs to surrender the Constitution to Cheney because of something you heard in biology class you're really hopeless.

[melody]

46. And you're incapable of holding a constructive discussion

You have to turn it into an insult because you couldn't understand my point.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[dailykoff]

57. Your "point" is a bullshit talking point

and I've been exposing it for a week. If you think that's an insult go back to TV land where you have full control. :hi:

[Hannah Bell]

163. insult? gee, you're the person who called him "ill-informed".

you sure put a lot of people on your ignore list.

[dflprincess]

51. Only the far left defends the Consitution?

n/t

[melody]

54. They aren't defending the Constitution -- they're trying to defeat Obama

I am defending the Constitution by trying to put a Democrat in office.

Heaven knows you'll have no reason to live if we actually get a liberal in office. Some of the left live to bellyache.

[dailykoff]

60. We must destroy the Constitution to save it.

That must be biology logic.

[RufusTFirefly]

84. Exactly. This is insane!

I can't believe there are people here who sincerely believe that we can gamble away the Constitution as part of some bizarre long-term political strategy. It's sickening.

Eight years ago if I suggested that the Bill of Rights, habeas corpus, and humane treatment of prisoners were all expendable, you would've laughed in my face and accused me of being an alarmist. Today you just shrug and move on.

[dflprincess]

69. So, again, just how much of it are you willing to throw under the bus?

And trust me, I'll be happy when we get an actual liberal elected. But I will not be happy with candidate who breaks his word before he has even been officially nominated. I imagine we'll all have to spend his first term listening to how the the right wing must be continually appeased or he won't be reelected. If he does manage to get a second term, I wonder what the excuse will be then?

[Runcible Spoon]

70. what a load of shit. broken record goes round and round...

same stupid message, words rearranged. Sigh.

[Hannah Bell]

166. "the far left"? who are you, melody?

it's the limbergers use that phraseology in the way you do.

[madfloridian]

31. You are too afraid of the right wing to take a stand. That is my point.

I love the Obamas, but I think this stance is wrong. I think the party forced him into it....but it is still wrong.

Stop being afraid of them.

[melody]

34. Bullshit

I'm not AFRAID of anything. I'm an anthropologist. We are at war with primates. YOU should stop underestimating them
and understand something about species psychology.

[Runcible Spoon]

72. oh fuck, I'm an anthropologist too and I disagree with you fundamentally.

I suggest more Foucault, Bourdieu, and Gramsci, cut down on the Kay and other old-school ethnopsychologists.

Comparing human society to a chimp colony is just about as stupid as comparing chimps to bonobos. Primate species are vastly different in their social needs and behavior.

Also, humanity has not remained politically static across history and culture...there is no innate psychological blueprint to map out the framework of understanding what's happening NOW...we need context, a look at interactionalism, everything.

[QC]

148. "I'm not AFRAID of anything. I'm an anthropologist."

That's the funniest thing I have seen posted on DU in months.

How do I nominate this for a DUzy?

[bean fidhleir]

167. "Anthropologist"?? Are you sure you don't mean "ethologist"? Or something else?

Because it's ethologists who deal with non-human primates, not anthros. I think most actual anthros know that.

[Runcible Spoon]

73. voters won't swallow terror again, stop spouting that lie

we are back to being annoyed at 3 oz bottles of liquid going through security. The terror train has run out of steam. Now, if you wanted to say that the Bush administration would stage another terror event just to boost McCain, well, I might buy that. However, as it stands now, the terror issue has been played to death. Katrina showed us that no matter how well protected we think we are, disaster can come from anywhere and teh best protection is getting better leadership. Americans are so thirsty for change, let's not paint Obama as the Same Old Shit with this FISA disaster.

[Jakes Progress]

85. If Democrats saying what is on their mind

will topple the Obama movement, then the movement isn't from the Democratic party.

Nobody has fought harder than the OP for getting Obama elected. I know because I argued with him a lot.

Now Obama is our candidate. I'm ready to back him. I think he has more leadership than most of those posting that we need to shut up. Is he so fragile? Is standing up for the Bill of Rights and explaining why to the people something he cannot do? Is following Steny Hower instead of leading the party your idea of what our candidate should do? I want to see him change his mind and argue for the fourth amendment. I think that people would respect that. I think they would be able to understand that there is no reason why we can't have the Bill of Rights and protect our borders. I think they are tired of the same old Washington politics, and this bill stinks so much that it would be the perfect example of what Obama wants to change.

Get on board with the rhetoric that he used in the primary, the speeches that inspired millions of new voters. No one is going to be inspired by a candidate who says how much he agrees with the people he is running against. He got bad advice on this. H should have known better than to take it. It is our responsibility to try to get him back on the track that brought so many to his support.

[Lorien]

106. That's an idiotic acusation. You know damn well that she would not

be happy if McCain won. She's unhappy about Obama's support for BushCo's spying and our loss of privacy. It's a perfectly valid concern that SHOULD be voiced.

[madfloridian]

114. Thank you.

My post was the only one on FISA moved to GD. I did not mind which forum, but the attacks were vicious.

I finally got it back in my journal and on front page again. They should post a rule that FISA can not be talked about in GDP....

Thank you.

[madfloridian]

25. I put up an honest post...I put it in the proper place. Feel free...

to have the mods move it.

These attacks are unwarranted, and they are fearful....not of what I post but what the right wing will think.

That is what I am talking about....fear of the right wing.

[melody]

29. You can attack the moderates but they can't attack you?

You can address those with whom you disagree but they can't disagree with you?

[madfloridian]

33. Whaa..aaat? I have no clue what you are saying. You need to calm down.

[melody]

38. No, madfloridian, you should stop sulking and admit the error n/t

[madfloridian]

50. I am not sulking at all. I will obey the rules if one is made by the mods.

I will be happy to do so.

[Joe Fields]

162. you need to learn the distinct difference between honest disagreement

and unwarranted attacks on people. What you have presented throughout this post is not reasoned counterpoint in a discussion, but rather a vicious, unwarranted attack.

[thewiseguy]

32. The question simply is whether threads related to FISA bill belong in the GE forum

Now you have made a scene that we are fearful that the RW will attack us or something.

If the FISA related threads are posted in the General Discussion forum, nobody is going to attack you and you will go on with your discussion and we can proceed to make our case against McCain on the presidential forum.

[madfloridian]

35. I have been posting them here every day. Please alert.

Let the mods decide. Obama has taken a stand as our nominee...that makes it about presidential stuff.

[thewiseguy]

41. I made a thread about Obama's speech to AIPAC and it was moved to the Palestine forum

I expect the mods to do the same with the FISA threads.

[madfloridian]

47. That is fine with me. Maybe they should make a rule. The vote comes up next week.

So keep alerting, ok?

Fine with me if they move it.

[thewiseguy]

53. You seem to be too sensitive to this alerting issue

Nothing against you but its better if FISA threads were posted in the General Discussion forum. I am tired of the infighting.

[madfloridian]

62. If the mods want to move this post, it is their decision. I hardly mentioned Obama.

I hardly mentioned Obama at all. My post was about the party caving in all the time.

[thewiseguy]

66. and that is why your thread should be moved to the GD

:)

[madfloridian]

64. This thread is not about AIPAC....this is about our constitution.

[Guaranteed]

49. You're still living in 2003. Obama isn't "afraid of what the rightwing will think."

He just doesn't want to get distracted. He has this in the bag, and he doesn't want "the issues" throwing him off-course.

Just let him win. Jesus.

[dflprincess]

59. If it isn't about "the issues" - then what's it about?

n/t

[JI7]

74. he can only do something about the issues if he wins

[madfloridian]

77. Are you okay with gutting the 4th amendment without speaking up?

We can't stop them from doing it, but what is wrong with questioning.

[Guaranteed]

45. I tried to tell you this before. You're still back in a different climate.

The party HAS changed- significantly. We have taken large steps to the left and toward regaining our integrity. Dean put us in this direction and Obama is following the path.

That is a damned sight from everything being perfect, though, and you're exaggerating ONE issue- corporate immunity. It's not everything. On top of that, you're not putting yourself in Obama's shoes. He has a campaign to run. He has what we would call a GAMEPLAN- a strategy already worked out. He doesn't want to get distracted by things or have unplanned events start driving the campaign. That would screw everything up.

It's the difference between creating a party platform and running a Presidential campaign.

[madfloridian]

58. Shhh...we must be careful what we say...

Just like we did in 2000, 2002, and 2004....don't make waves. Don't upset the right wing or the media. They might harm us.

They are doing it anyway. The Media is so pathetic already I can't turn it on.

[merh]

63. If FISA does pass

I want a democratic president and NOT MCCAIN.

The repugs want to cause division, to not allow a clean sweep so their attempts at stealing yet another election (which they will try and that is why they are so comfy with FISA passing) are more successful.

[madfloridian]

65. DId you see that I am voting for Obama. Do you want me to scan my bumper sticker.

I can you know.

This is not your ordinary cave in.

[merh]

129. I didn't say you weren't voting for Obama, I believe you are

I also believe you are overreacting prematurely - not much can be done by the dems (as has been proven time and time again) with the slim majority and GWB's veto and signing statements.

Get control of congress and the presidency and then hold their feet to the fire. And use the courts the way they were meant to be used, to challenged their unconstitutional laws.

[madfloridian]

136. You think I am acting prematurely? Our DEMS are bringing it to a vote.

They are in control of what comes to the floor.

They are signing all those rights away. Have you been following this issue?

That is a new criticism...being premature.. one I had not heard before. Congrats on coming up with something new.

[merh]

138. What is it that bothers you.

Explain it to me like I am a six year old, without attacks, without insults.

I am a new dem that doesn't understand - tell me why I should be concerned.

[madfloridian]

139. ......

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2276

Quite frankly, you don't have to believe a word I have said. You are grown up. It is your responsiblity to learn what the party is doing.

You guys are really fearful that Obama can't win unless he caves, aren't you.

That kind of fear is not healthy.

I would recommend reading up at Fire Dog Lake, Glenn Greenwald at Salon, and there are many others.

Shame on you for trying to insinuate I am attacking you. I would have thought behavior like that was beneath you.

[merh]

141. Get the chip off of your shoulder, I never claimed you attacked

I asked you to discuss this without attacks or insults (like don't you read, don't you know indignant comments). What about this concerns you. Use reason, don't go off on tangents, tell me what about FISA bothers you and what about this proposed law makes you think the world and the party is coming to an end.

[madfloridian]

142. That is pathetic. I never insulted you. I have been bullied in this thread

and I am speaking up.

Our party stands for the constitution, for our individual rights...or it doesn't.

I did not expect it from you of all people.

Do not insult me by telling me I need to explain it.

I JUST WROTE A WHOLE POST EXPLAINING IT.

[merh]

143. And your journal article is all about the DLC and folks not being

nice to Dean and all of that, but it is weak on FISA discussion.

What is it about FISA that bothers you?

I'm not the one attacking you, I am actually trying to have a rational and reasonable discussion.

[madfloridian]

145. I gave you a link. I gave you recommends to read.

I am so sad to see that you don't care about our gutting that amendment.

No, you are so wrong about what it is about. And no you are not trying to have a good discussion.

I have been posting about this issue for days. If you really care click the red button in my post and read my journal.

You usually make more sense than this.

[merh]

149. Let me explain something to you.

I know full well how THIS ADMINISTRATION has circumvented the law and used information illegally obtained through bogus search warrants and stealth investigations to destroy innocent folks.

I support Dodd and Feingold and in that same breath, I cannot blame Obama for letting others fight this battle while he tries to maintain the balance necessary to win the office that is crucial to restoring our rights and our nation.

I've made plenty of sense, it is you that has allowed your emotions to get the best of you. We can do both, we can oppose this new FISA law and support Obama - nothing he can do as an individual can change the FISA fight.

[madfloridian]

151. My post when moved left a dead link to my journal...and was taken off front page.

So yes, it upset me.

I have written 3 mods and can't get a response. I did get the post back in my journal.

You are so angry with me, and I don't know why.

I was bullied badly last night. Go to GDP and read all the FISA posts and wonder why mine was the only one moved.

:shrug: :shrug:

[merh]

153. I am not angry with you.

I am asking you why this upsets you so - it is you that is angry and emotional and you have decided to take it out on me. I've asked for discussion and you have not even tried.

Your OP does belong in General Discussion as it is up to us to get ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL of the dems to recognize the importance of the FISA legislation and the mistake it is. We can't hang all our hopes on one man and to do so is just childish.

[madfloridian]

154. Your attacks on me have saddened me.

I thought you were different.

Here's part of your discussion, I have more.

Since all of you have decided that GD is the only place for FISA posts why not tell me before this?

I thought I knew some people here better than that.


Amendment 4 being gutted

And what Hoyer said was the reason he pushed it.

Hoyer: FISA bill passed to keep the Blue Dogs from demanding a stronger bill. Absurdity.

And this:

Tomorrow's FISA vote means government can keep spying even if court says no.

And this:

Why did 58 Democrats flip on FISA from no to YES since last year?

Here are more at this link:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian

[merh]

157. I have not attacked you.

I have asked you to discuss the issues.

I do not believe that the FISA amendment proposed is an attack on the 4th amendment.

The 4th amendment provides:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The FISA legislation actually reestablishes that principle, protects the 4th amendment, it provides that a Court will require the probable cause and limit the search according to the evidence presented. It won't be open ended any more.

Don't confuse FISA with NSA - I'm not sure the FISA immunity could be extended to those corporations that conducted the illegal search and seizure under this administrations NSA executive order. (I'm pretty sure it can't, the president did not have the authority to authorize such illegal seizures.)

[madfloridian]

158. You need to explain that stuff to the ACLU...that's my source.

.

[merh]

168. The ACLU has objected to it SINCE 1978

http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/2001/04/042301.html

Tell me where the FISA proposed law violates the 4th, I posted it for you, it is pretty easy to follow - where does it screw it up?

The FISA laws and NSA that this admin has used have done away with the "for good cause shown" and the objective review by a court of law.

LEO gets secret search warrants all the time. There is no due process right to be there when the court considers the "probable cause" necessary to issue a search warrant.

As I understand the proposed law, it will restore the necessary safeguards, to protect the 4th amendment rights.

[madfloridian]

169. Well then....if the ACLU objects...

whatever. I am done.

Sad, but done.

[merh]

171. I'm sorry, I don't always agree with the ACLU

Tell me, how would you prefer that our nation conduct it's spying/intelligence missions - by the law or without laws? FISA is FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE - it is about non US spying, intelligence gathering and surveillance.

(b) Limitations- An acquisition authorized under subsection (a)--

‘(1) may not intentionally target any person known at the time of acquisition to be located in the United States;

‘(2) may not intentionally target a person reasonably believed to be located outside the United States if the purpose of such acquisition is to target a particular, known person reasonably believed to be in the United States;

‘(3) may not intentionally target a United States person reasonably believed to be located outside the United States;

‘(4) may not intentionally acquire any communication as to which the sender and all intended recipients are known at the time of the acquisition to be located in the United States; and

‘(5) shall be conducted in a manner consistent with the fourth amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

It looks to me that this amendment further protects the US CITIZENS rights, but heck, better to run around without guidelines to follow, that way when they do things they can claim they didn't know.

[madfloridian]

160. Here's a link from the ACLU...one I put in the posts you were given.

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/nsaspying/35731res20080619.html

H.R. 6304, THE FISA AMENDMENTS ACT OF 2008 (6/19/2008)

The ACLU recommends a no vote on H.R. 6304, which grants sweeping wiretapping authority to the government with little court oversight and ensures the dismissal of all pending cases against the telecommunication companies. Most importantly:

• H.R. 6304 permits the government to conduct mass, untargeted surveillance of all communications coming into and out of the United States, without any individualized review, and without any finding of wrongdoing.

• H.R. 6304 permits only minimal court oversight. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA Court) only reviews general procedures for targeting and minimizing the use of information that is collected. The court may not know who, what or where will actually be tapped.

• H.R. 6304 contains a general ban on reverse targeting. However, it lacks stronger language that was contained in prior House bills that included clear statutory directives about when the government should return to the FISA court and obtain an individualized order if it wants to continue listening to a US person’s communications.

• H.R.6304 contains an “exigent” circumstance loophole that thwarts the prior judicial review requirement. The bill permits the government to start a spying program and wait to go to court for up to 7 days every time “intelligence important to the national security of the US may be lost or not timely acquired.” By definition, court applications take time and will delay the collection of information. It is highly unlikely there is a situation where this exception doesn’t swallow the rule.

• H.R. 6304 further trivializes court review by explicitly permitting the government to continue surveillance programs even if the application is denied by the court. The government has the authority to wiretap through the entire appeals process, and then keep and use whatever it gathered in the meantime.

• H.R. 6304 ensures the dismissal of all cases pending against the telecommunication companies that facilitated the warrantless wiretapping programs over the last 7 years. The test in the bill is not whether the government certifications were actually legal – only whether they were issued. Because it is public knowledge that they were, all the cases seeking to find out what these companies and the government did with our communications will be killed.

• Members of Congress not on Judiciary or Intelligence Committees are NOT guaranteed access to reports from the Attorney General, Director of National Intelligence, and Inspector General."


They used to have 72 hours to spy without going to court..now we are giving them 7 days and even if the court says no they can keep spying.

You know what?

If I am wrong I will admit it.

[merh]

170. Thank god, you are actually discussing the FISA issues

I share some of the concerns, I honestly don't believe that this legislation could withstand legal scrutiny (especially the immunity portion). This legislation does something that its opponents neglect to discuss, it provides for congressional review of all previous actions authorized under its predecessor. I like that part of the proposed amendment.

[thewiseguy]

68. Check your Inbox Mad

:)

[cbc5g]

75. I'm sorry you're not excited anymore...?

What do you want us to do, not feel excited either? After 8 years of Bush?

[madfloridian]

76. Did you read what I said? Did you get any of it?

Silly question, we have been down this road before, haven't we.

[cbc5g]

78. You didn't answer my question

[dflprincess]

80. Maybe you'll answer my question - I've asked it several times

and received no response.

How much of the Constitution are you willing to sacrifice for political expediency?

[cbc5g]

81. How much more of it are we willing to sacrifice over bickering and defeatist attitudes?

Again, what do you want us to do? Feel less excited? Not care about Obama anymore? What do you want?

[dflprincess]

86. Answering a question with a question is not answer

And, you never aksed me before what I wanted.

But, what do I want? I want a candidate that I can trust to keep his word. I want a candidate that acutally stands for something besides his (or her) own ambiton and I want a candidate who will respect the Constitution and the rule of law. And, I want to vote for a Democrat, not someone who is just Republican Lite.

Now, one more time, how much of the Constitution are you willing to lose?

[cbc5g]

89. We have a candidate, so that nullifies your response.

But what exactly is your griping accomplishing? What do you want us to do that we aren't already doing?

[madfloridian]

82. You have done this too often.

updating list.

[cbc5g]

83. Figured as much, you couldn't answer it.

[thewiseguy]

87. Thank you mods for moving this thread

:patriot:

The less infighting the better.

[madfloridian]

91. You won. Congratulations. They even took it off front page.

Now I am silenced,

[mmonk]

88. The DLC is trying to make Ralph Nader a truth teller.

[alarimer]

He is, compared to them at least.

The DLC is absolute poison as far as I am concerned.

[madfloridian]

90. I don't mind this being moved...but it was taken out of My Journal??

And off front page?

Is FISA not to be discussed here anymore?

Why off front page?

[thewiseguy]

94. Front page articles come from the GDP

Your journal, I am not sure about.

If you look over the GD forum you will see many other FISA related threads.

[madfloridian]

95. No, they do not. You need to correct that.

I added it again to my journal. we shall see what happens.

You have silenced me.

[madfloridian]

100. Bye now.

[madfloridian]

93. Perhaps FISA is off topic for front page. I have emailed to find out.

I think we need to know as the vote comes up next week.

[madfloridian]

96. I added it to my journal again. We shall see what happens.

It comes up for a vote next week. What is good for the goose and all that.

We need to determine it before then.

This is about our constitution.

[madfloridian]

97. New Rule...FISA posts can't be posted in GDP

I just hope all my others that were in my journal are not moved from there. It will mess everything up in my journal.

[RufusTFirefly]

98. K & R. Thank you, madfloridian! n/t

[madfloridian]

101. You are welcome.

There are other posts on FISA in GDP...so I guess mine only was moved. :shrug:

[leftofthedial]

99. truth be told, this hasn't been my party since they killed JFK.

[madfloridian]

105. The rules need to be clear about where to post about FISA

I see that my post was the only one moved from GDP. I don't question why, I just believe that there should be a clear rule so people won't be attacked like I have been in this post.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

116. You have been bullied

and attacked. You have always posted reasoned and well thought out OPS. The attacks on you piss me off. It is a terrible and sad day when the Constitution is just a god damned piece of paper here on this forum.

[madfloridian]

117. Thank you.

I feel that way tonight. The bullies won, though.

Mine was the only FISA post moved.

But at least I got it back in my journal and back on front page. I was really upset about that.

:hi:

[QueenOfCalifornia]

118. It's pretty strange

that your OP was moved and there are several on the same topic left over in GDGE - :pals:

Get some sleep and we can be some of the last save the constitution DUers here tomorrow. Some of the other diehard, concerned about the FISA people are being beaten up on their threads too. It's all about being told to be a good little follower and never question authority.

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. it is simpler than that

it is the DLC making sure there is no discussion about no stinking Constitution

As I said bellow, the WAR party, the IMPERIAL party, does not need a Constitution... it gets in the way... and in this point, I don't care what is the letter behind name

DLC is the Democratic Party version of the Imperial Party, and the Neocons are the R side of it... the Neocons are far less subtle about their goals though, I'll give them that

And we have plenty of War Party, supporters here on DU.

I hate to have to be this obvious and use a sledge hammer

[QueenOfCalifornia]

120. Thank you.

No hammers needed. I really do get it and as I have seen, so do you and a few others. I have seen your posts all over the boards tonight and you have maintained what madfloridian and I have said for several days.

Have a good night. I am off to get some sleep now. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. Night, I should go as well

[QC]

147. No, it wasn't the DLC. It was a guy who thinks he's wise enough to run this place

and spends all his time trying to silence those who disagree with him.

A cheap little bully, in other words.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. True, but the DLC is part of the Imperial Party, and it is our bitches

just like the Neocons are the other half of the Imperial, pro corporatist party.

Sorry, reality sucks

[Catherina]

192. No MF. The bullies have not won. They've revealed themselves for what they are

empty-minded propagandists who are willing to sacrifice every single principle for a 2 day victory parade where they can't quite explain what we "won".

You are near and dear to my heart and the primary reason I lurked so faithfully at DU.

We've just had 8-28 years of bullshit depending on how partisan you are. Don't you ever think the bullies have won. Nobody's paying serious attention to them. You, on the other hand, are a gem with a huge following outside of DU and at DU. Dontcha ever get discouraged :hug:

[QC]

144. Unfortunately, some posters here think they have been promoted to admin,

and so spend all of their time trying to silence those who do not behave according to their very own personal sense of how things should be.

[Joe Fields]

159. I second that, Gilligan. I have always respected what madfloridian

brings to the forum. And I agree a hundred percent with this particular post. These attacks on madfloridian are nothing more than thinly veiled attempts to shut the messenger up, because they don't like the message. The same kind of unreasoned attacks that could be expected from republicans. Many people here who call themselves progressive really need to get their heads out of their asses.

[nadinbrzezinski]

107. I have come to realize that we have two or three parties in the US

and they have nothing to do with the Rs and Ds. that's just the distraction... as it were the political theater.... that is brought out every two years to keep the masses amused...

You have the traditional Labor, liberal wing, mostly in the D side of the theater, some in the Liberatarian wing (count them with one hand) and some in the Green Party. By design they are kept weak and non-important.

Then you have the Imperial Party, mostly in both the major parties, (DLC, Neocon)

And finally you have the old traditional isolationist party (mostly in the R and the Libertarians), and just like the labor progressives, they are kept down... and hard.

And the one in control right now is the Imperial Party, which does not believe in traditional American values, and has to HIDE its true intent while hiding in both national parties

Nader and now Kucinich have it partially right...

But what I am talking about is verbotten... since of course there are differences between them you see, never mind the Imperial party holds similar goals regardless of what letter is behind their names.

Never mind the evidence... many folks don't want to see what is hiding in plain sight

And if we were in a system that allowed for more parties, the Imperial party would be limited to center right parties... which is exactly what we are seeing right now, as the dems move, predictably, to the right. BUT they'd be far more obvious to those who don't pay this much attention to inside baseball

As to the FISA bill, the Imperial party has no use for the Constitution since it places obvious limits on the goals of empire

The Republic is dead... and the rest is purely political theater

So your vote... is either one of conscience, in which case you must vote against Rs and Ds... or economic convenience, in which case the Ds are better for your pocket book

This is purely now a decision of living a moral life in an immoral society, as stated by Niemohler

http://books.google.com/books?id=MDYmYw_22_UC&dq=moral+man+in+an+immoral+society&pg=PP1&ots=030eURLfse&sig=aNZ9HjWmgyUA5JdwccxatqEET-Y&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

This means that in November this election will be between two members of the Corporatist party, and that is the way those in power like it

On the plus side, yes there is one. the Empire cannot last forever and the seeds of its destruction have been laid. If the economy crashes the way some expect... then Obama will have a choice, surrender to Corporatists... or dust off the new deal and bring out the Sherman Antitrust Act and use it, to save capitalism from itself once again.

By temperament, I believe he will be better able to turn left and do what the nation needs

but the republic is dead... and I do not try to even convince myself otherwise.

So yes, I will vote for Obama, but not because he is a D... see about corporatists and Imperial Party... but quite frankly, the Ds are better for my wallet, that is the historical fact. And if I want to live, I do need an income

[truedelphi]

110. Our household just shut off the TV in which an "elite" of young people was given center stage

To discuss what their wisdom was telling them would be the way that the candidates would handle this election.

The young people from Hillary's campaign held the chairs in the center of the position. It made me realize that Hillary is re-gaining everything she lost - Obama with his not showing for the FISA bill has really disappointed me. This is getting all so old - every election, the minute the nomination is in the hands of the new nominee they swing over to the right.

But the populace is not over at the right any more. 32 percent of Americans identify with the Dems, 28 percent with the Repugs and the rest of the American populace is very independent of either party - yet those people are ignored.

[nadinbrzezinski]

111. I know, but the only way the Imperial party will get it

is to loose... but the game is fixed... and they know it

That is why they have members in both parties

What gives me hope is history

FDR also ran to the center right, but didn't run the country from the center right. rather the progressive left

[truedelphi]

112. FDR hated imperialism - watching the Churchill biography lately

I keep realizing that if he were to come back from the grave right now and see our mess in Iraq and Afghanistan (and Columbia too) he would be stinking mad.

It would be great if Obama ends up taking several dozen pages out of FDR's play book.

[nadinbrzezinski]

113. I know, and time will tell

but I have become such a bad cynic... that I don't believe in any politician any more

[Catherina]

193. ! APPLAUSE!

If you're not married, I'd like to marry you right now. Even if it has to be in California.

The empire is DEAD. It boggles my mind that people aren't getting this. I'd rather have Obama at the helm of the ship but all we're quibbling about at this point is how long we're going to drown out the agonizing death.

It's been coming for 28 years. No magical candidate can change this, the best I'm hoping for is giving people a few years to cushion the fall by building lifeboats and getting a few safety nets in place for the weaker members of our society.

[madfloridian]

108. The FISA bill weakens the courts and give Bush more powers.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/2276

"It’s Christmas morning at the White House thanks to this vote. The House just wrapped up some expensive gifts for the administration and their buddies at the phone companies. Watching the House fall to scare tactics and political maneuvering is especially infuriating given the way it stood up to pressure from the president on this same issue just months ago. In March we thought the House leadership had finally grown a backbone by rejecting the Senate’s FISA bill. Now we know they will not stand up for the Constitution.

"No matter how often the opposition calls this bill a ‘compromise,’ it is not a meaningful compromise, except of our constitutional rights. The bill allows for mass, untargeted and unwarranted surveillance of all communications coming in to and out of the United States. The courts’ role is superficial at best, as the government can continue spying on our communications even after the FISA court has objected. Democratic leaders turned what should have been an easy FISA fix into the wholesale giveaway of our Fourth Amendment rights.

"More than two years after the president’s domestic spying was revealed in the pages of the New York Times, Congress’ fury and shock has dissipated to an obedient whimper. After scrambling for years to cover their tracks, the phone companies and the administration are almost there. This immunity provision will effectively destroy Americans’ chance to have their deserved day in court and will kill any possibility of learning the extent of the administration’s lawless actions. The House should be ashamed of itself. The fate of the Fourth Amendment is now in the Senate’s hands. We can only hope senators will show more courage than their colleagues in the House."

For more information, go to:
www.aclu.org/fisa

[NoFederales]

124. I 'fear' that Obama has been coopted by the DLC/Corporate wing

in greater degree. He was never the progressive that some made him out to be, but his Primary messages of hope and change had that ring that many activists wanted to hear a prospective leader make. So, I cannot be surprised that Obama has taken this stand with FISA, but it is a terrible blow to those who had hoped "for something genuinely different" this time. Betrayal of constituentcies is apparently the only game in town for our corporate politicians for it surely has nothing to do with the sensibilities of the people.

It may be a misperception on my part, but Obama has not seemed "on message" since becoming the presumptive nominee. Sure, he's tired, but his face doesn't have that intensity, his voice does't seem to ring with the sincerety that it did, which leads me to think of his being further coopted by the corporate conservatives of the Party--how much will he yield to succor the Clinton/DLC portion of the Party? Is this weighing on him?

And, apparently, the Constitution is merely shit tissue, particularly so if it is unmentionable as a GE tissue issue. I would have thought that where a Candidate stood on constitutional isssues to be of paramount importance. The spew about dissent interfering with winning the GE is nonsense: the StateRun CorpoMedia will keep the election close for stealing, but regular Americans will be persuaded/duped to choose as they are wont. Only the activists and fringe ranters will shred each other on forums like this.

Dean's 50 State strategy is still the best thing around for working progressives. I believe the more those efforts continue the less the corporate pols can get away with. And I believe that Obama is aware of such importance. He isn't perfect, and he isn't assured from having this election undermined and stolen by the political aristocracy. Obama needs progressive support despite what appears to be his putting some distance from those issues--how hard is that going to be?

Thanks for the OP.

NoFederales

[Echo In Light]

128. "Co-opted?" Any candidate who is "electable" is already a long established player in The Game

Hence no Dennis Kucinich, or anyone along those lines.

[dailykoff]

164. Yeah the attention he's giving the Clintons seems to be having a bad effect.

Before he seemed lined up with the Kennedy-Kerry wing, if you could call it that, like the 15 Senators who voted against cloture, but now that Kennedy is sick it's like he's lost his way.

[Time for change]

125. Very well said -- I feel much the same way

Those who complain that "standing up for us", as you say, will lose votes in November, could be right. But I suspect that the opposite is more likely true.

It's hard for me to see how Dean can be so criticized by the DLC types. He's taken a party that was running about 50-50 with the opposition party and made it into our country's majority party by far.

[DeeDeeNY]

126. What you said

"They think they must go right, and that they must abandon their base in order to win a general election."
That truly goes to the heart of the matter, and is very frustrating.

[antigop]

127. Thanks, madfloridian, for your posts. I appreciate them. n/t

[jgraz]

132. Thanks, madflo. Posts like this give me hope that not everyone is asleep at the switch.

:loveya:

[The Backlash Cometh]

133. kick

[madfloridian]

134. I just got online today...read some of the comments again.

Realized I have heard nothing back from my inquiries about the fact of the post being moved out of my journal and off front page....and then realized that since I managed to get it back there I won't bother anyone further.

But I realized again just how powerful two people can be in a thread when they get mad at the poster. They call on others,and soon the mods are overwhelmed with alerts.

I know more about it now, and I should have realized a pattern.

I think there should be a rule. Can we post about FISA in GDP or can we not?

It was a shock to see it happen last night...worse this morning.

They are taking away privacy rights from us in that bill...giving Bush more power, and they are weakening the position of the courts.

And we are supposed to remain silent?

[thewiseguy]

137. Your thread is simply in the GD forum

I dont understand why you are getting all worked up about people trying to silence you. Folks can still read your thread and respond to it.

Nobody was trying to bully you and nobody tried to encourage others to join in. In fact I advocated for FISA related threads to be moved to GD to avoid such infighting.

I did also send you a private message with some nice words but you seemed to have ignored that. So there you go....

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. What is your problem being in GDP? that it MIGHT reflect wrong

on the party?

Geeze... is this that famous you are either with us or against us shit?

[madfloridian]

155. I was upset because when it was moved it killed the link to my journal

and took it off front page. I can't see that poster's words now, but I tried to explain over and over.

The mods should know when they move a post, it makes the journal link dead.

I don't care which forum I post in, but I intend to keep posting about FISA until and after it passes next week.

Our party is selling us out for the sake of expediency....at least in their mind.

I gather from what you are saying that the poster still doesn't get it. I don't care what forum, just don't move it after it is in the journal.

:hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Some folks don't get it

this is about the Journal, but also about the fact that we are up a shit creek without a paddle

And yes, the party is selling us short

[slipslidingaway]

140. Debating the position of our nominee on a particular issue

would seem appropriate for the GDP forum IMHO.

Appreciate your threads on the subject.

:hi:

[PleaseSayItAintSo]

135. Thanks. I appreciate that you post about Dems caving on FISA. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

161. Politics, and politicians, as usual...as usual. K&R

"When politics enter . . . government, nothing resulting there from in the way of crimes and infamies is then incredible." Mark Twain

[G_j]

174. Activists have to live with a certain irony

Activists have to live with a certain irony.

We stand firm on principles, staking a clear and visible flag that should allow others room to move left of the center,
further toward the purity humanitarian and democratic ideals. The irony is that, as stubborn as we are in our fierce dedication to these high ideals,
we learn to understand that we are really working to allow the "average" person room to accept "liberal" viewpoints and not feel "extreme".

Today, most of the Democrats in power, DO NOT reflect this, even though the people do.

They have not moved to swing the pendulum back into balance.
They need the energy we, as activists, generate. The enthusiasm, anger, passions that mobilize people to get involved, and even vote!
They gladly catch that wave, and still feel they owe nothing to those very principles we have bled and struggled for.

The foremost reason all humanitarian and democratic ideals are now allowed to be blurred, and even taken "off the table".
is the War On Terror/ FEAR card.

Personally. I don't trust anyone who plays that game, and doesn't call the bluff of this most insidious, fascistic ploy.

[BlueJac]

175. I liked the post....

what is wrong with people here in DU? A cave in is a cave in, our rights and the constitution matter!


K&R

[MissDeeds]

181. Many seem to agree with your concerns

There are 42 recommendations at this point. It is important that we feel free to express concern when it is warranted. That is, after all, part of the democratic process. If we adopt the meme of "You're either with us or against us," we pander to the ideals of the fetid regime that is now in control. We are better than that. If our candidate does not live up to our expectations, it is incumbent upon us to call him out and let him know that his policies are not our policies.

Madfloridian has expressed a concern that is valid. S/he should not be vilified for that.

[ooglymoogly]

183. KR great post nt

[MJJP21]

184. I trust Barack

I trust Barack knows what he is doing. First off he knows he doesn't have the votes to overide a veto. Second this bill is better than what there was and the bottom line is that Bush can pardon anyone for anything whether proved or unproven the day he leaves office protecting anyone and everyone from any wrongdoing. There is no need to muddy the waters when you don't have to.

[madfloridian]

186. No, the bill did not have to be brought up at all. Why did they do it?

I trust Obama, but I will not hesitate to speak out.

Why did our Dems bring the bill up....it could have waited until after the election.

[readmoreoften]

190. He's a politician. You don't trust what he says. You trust what he does.

He has backtracked on FISA. He already backtracked on NAFTA after he made a big fuss about being against it--a ploy that helped push him over the top in the primary.

They should be opposed on every unconstitutional thing they do. Force Bush to pardon himself and his buddies--that would look hideous to the American people.

[KoKo]

187. So many of us are still carrying on to get "Bush vs. Gore" in '99 Corrected...

We done everything we could to alert about the Corrupted Voting machines and worked in our own State to tighten the laws against these machines and push for Paper Ballot.

Sadly our Dem Congress...both House and Senate have let us down on "Voting Reform" instead they work now about "Voting Fraud" which doesn't exist. Our Congress refuses to do anything about this despite a few attempts by Russ Holt and maybe one or two others...they don't think both elections were stolen...so they don't care if another one is.

When McCain said the "election will be decided in the last 48 hours" what the heck do folks think he meant by that! He was "blurting out...WE WILL STEAL IT AGAIN, SUCKERS!"

They are so ARROGANT they are not TELLING US THEY WILL STEAL IT... and look at the Mainstream Media, if you don't believe what McCain said. They put a "lock down" on any "real news" once Obama got the delegates and they are now doing what they did to Kerry and before him Al Gore in the Trivialization of anothe election.

They aren't afraid! They all know who is going to win...and McCain is now bragging about it.

Sick!

[upi402]

195. Ring of Fire on Air America talked about this today n/t

[bertman]

189. Great work, Mad!! Don't give up.

[kaygore]

194. The irony is that as long as people thought Obama was liberal the $$$ poured in

Once he started heading right, the money and the enthusiasm has dropped.

People want real change. The fringe in this country is NOT the lefty liberals but those who lean right.

The truth of the matter is that the DLC types are using the "McGovern-Mondale wing" story as a cover for the truth: Most Democrats, just like the Republicans, have sold their souls (only the Democratic whores sold theirs for less) to corporate interests at the expense of not only the American people but the Constitution. We need look no farther than the lack of will to end the mess in Iraq, the tax structure, the credit card mess, FISA, etc.

It will take a real, taking-to-the-streets revolution to overthrow these gangsters.

[hardtoport]

196. Thanks, Mad

This issue shouldn't go away. Why? Because there is still time to change the minds of some of our so-called leaders. It's been asked why we are continuing to gripe. Because griping got the bill pushed back for fear of voter backlash. Sure, it's not a victory, but every delay makes it possible for another Senator to pluck up some courage. After the election is too late.

This isn't just about Obama. It is about holding our elected representatives to their promise to represent us. If they don't, they should be held to account. If Obama was on the right side of this issue, he would not be held up to scrutiny like Hoyer, Rockefeller, et al.

What do we all think is going to happen when we have a Democratic Congress and a Democratic President? We may not want to believe this, but it won't be much different than what happened with Republicans running the whole shebang. The only thing that will keep the Democrats in line will be the idea that someone is paying attention and will call them to account come election day. If we all just trust Obama and the Democratic party because of some notion of loyalty, then we get what we deserve.

Oh, and if you think FISA is the only thing he's capitulated on in the name of political expediency, I invite you to watch Jeremy Scahill discuss Obama's position on Blackwater and leaving residual forces in Iraq.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yuQq70QSMi4

The only way we are going to get Obama to deliver on the bill of goods he's sold us is if we show him the receipt and say " Hey, this is what I paid for and THIS is what you're trying to give me. " Complaining after the election is like trying to return something without a receipt.