Fraud, much? "Run your car on water:"

[Redstone]

http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/

Yeah, sure.

I cannot believe that Yahoo has an ad link to this crap on their home page.

Redstone

[graywarrior]

1. Ha! It's Yahoo. They suck.

They keep wanting to get on my menu bar. bastards.

[sharp_stick]

2. How can someone get away with this?

If I was to go over to my neighbor and con him out of $150 by convincing him that the sugar I'm selling him could grow sugar tree's I'm sure I'd wind up in jail. Here these assholes con people right out in the open and sites like Yahoo are allowing them to do it.

[Speck Tater]

3. People are getting desperate.

Desperate people grasp at straws, and wherever there are people grasping at straws there are con men ready to sucker them into to some fraudulent scheme.

I'm sure there will be even more schemes like this, as well as schemes on how to make extra income, start your own business, win the lottery, etc., etc. Economic predators are without morals or honor.

[NNN0LHI]

4. Demand for bird flu herbal cures must be down?

:crazy:

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

5. The process doesn't really run a car with water

I don't know if it works, but there are hundreds of guys on line in blogs who swear that they've seen improved gas mileage. They are even conducting races with cars outfitted with these devices, with the most fuel-efficient car winning.

The way it works is that water is broken down into hydroxy gas through electrolysis. That hydroxy gas is run through the air intake in the car and mixed with the air-fuel mixture and ignites at a much higher temperature than normal gasoline and provides an extra boost. That requires electricity, however, to create the hydroxy and so some people question whether it requires more energy (i.e. burns more gas) than you get out of it in the end. However, those literally hundreds of people who say this stuff works contend that it isn't really the hydroxy gas that is providing the extra boost. It's the unburnt gasoline that is actually causing increased gas mileage. While using electrolysis to create hydroxy gas actually does probably consume more energy than it gives back, it's the fact that that hydroxy gas burns more gasoline than would normally be escaping through the car's exhaust that gives the boost and improved fuel efficiency. So the car is really running on gas (it's own extra unburnt gas), not water, and it's actually the gas that would otherwise not be burned that gives the extra mileage.

I don't know if this actually works. There are websites that have tried to debunk this, but those websites themselves has suffered problems with credibility. I'd like to see scientific studies on this. There have in fact been several peer-reviewed scientific papers published by noted scientists on the subject of adding a hydroxy boost to a car's engine, funded by NASA. But those studies ended several years ago.

[DerekJ]

27. Good explination.. thanks for that,

[wildbilln864]

41. the electrolysis can be energized from the vehicle's alternator/generator.

I don't see how this would require anymore energy that normal engine running?
ETA: Thanks for the explanation of the process BTW.

[lumberjack_jeff]

43. it takes fuel to turn the alternator. n/t

[wildbilln864]

51. but it's using the same amount of fuel...

with or without doing the electrolysis.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. No, it's not.

Electrolysis is a power hungry process. Most of the converters I'm familiar with take up to 20 amps (about 250 watts) continuous to generate less than 2 liters per minute of hydroxy.

[wildbilln864]

60. anytime you pass any current through water you produce electrolysis.

I did it in grade school science class with a battery and some saltwater.
More current of course produces more rapid release of the gases.
"Most of the converters I'm familiar with take up to 20 amps (about 250 watts) continuous to generate less than 2 liters per minute of hydroxy."
My Chevy truck has a 105 amp alternator. More than enough.

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. Your 105a alternator is not producing 105a continuously.

As you switch on accessories, more of your engine's horsepower is diverted to producing electricity.

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. The electricity required to electrolicize water is more than the energy in the hydrogen it yields

However, there is ample evidence that many if not most cars can obtain better economy by injecting hydroxy (browns) gas into the air/fuel mixture. Anecdotally, 20% improvement seems to be frequently obtained.

That said, there is a guy named Bob Boyce who claims to have developed a pulsed DC electrolicizer which yields dramatically more gas.
http://www.bobboyce.org/

Additionally, water droplets (which often accompany the hydroxy gas) tend to improve combustion.

[wildbilln864]

52. water is made from the combustion of hydrogen and oxygen. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

54. water present in the exhaust but not the intake does no good. n/t

[wildbilln864]

56. so what?

:shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. Water droplets in the intake charge improve combustion when they vaporize.

Hydrogen and Oxygen (although they have other benefits in the intake) will not serve this purpose - they're not water until combustion has already taken place, and even then they are water vapor which doesn't really help.

[wildbilln864]

61. ah!

Cool. If hydrogen is being introduced into the intake and improving the combustion. What need for the h2o?
This is all very interesting though. It would be interesting to try and build one for my isuzu.

[csziggy]

57. Mythbusters tested this in their "Great Gas Conspiracy" episode

Along with a number of other devices to increase gas mileage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBusters_(season_4)#The_Great_Gas_Conspiracy

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. LOL

"Our easy conversion guide will show you how to use electricity from your car's battery to separate water into a gas called HHO (2 Hydrogen + 1 Oxygen). HHO, also called Brown's Gas or Hydroxy, burns smoothly and provides significant energy - while the end product is just H2O! HHO provides the atomic power of Hydrogen, while maintaining the stability of water."

[ProfessorGAC]

19. Wouldn't That Be The Molecular Power Of Hydrogen?

Since combustion is a molecular chemical phenomenon, it's not atomic? So, this is not only fraud, it's fraud by people who can't even make up a convincing lie!
The Professor

[pokerfan]

50. Awesome! It makes its own fuel!

Why, this car would be capable of running continually, indefinitely, endlessly, even perpetually! <cough>

[jmowreader]

7. You know what's even funnier?

The devices that claim to improve fuel economy by "swirling" the air-fuel mixture in your combustion chamber before it is burned.

I'll give them this: after you install this unit on your car, the air-fuel mixture in your combustion chamber will swirl. It was swirling before you installed it too...because cylinder heads are designed to make the air-fuel mixture swirl.

[dubyaD40web]

8. I am doing this and it works.

I have a 2001 Chevy Silverado (4.8L V8).

I'm using a different type of converter though. There are plenty of designs on the internet for free with research. Anyway, I was getting 19mpg without, now I'm getting between 28-35mpg based on my distilled water/baking soda mixture. It's a testing process until you get it right.

Anway, this is legit. You can believe me or not, doesn't matter. I'm seeing better mpg's.

[dubyaD40web]

10. Link to investigative report:

http://www.wptv.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=74b15465-2ebb-49e0-acb1-939c4bb13a28

w/video

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

11. Hydrogen fuel injection in a gas-powered car is a proven technology

But most of the previous scientific studies have involved a means to capture the hydrogen directly from the hydrocarbon-rich gasoline itself and re-feed it through the intake manifold with the air-fuel mixture. The idea is that it burns more of the gas in the car and creates better gas mileage. J. Houseman of the Caltech Jet Propulsion Laboratory made studies of this under NASA funding in the 1970s, publishing peer-reviewed papers such as "Lean Combustion of Hydrogen Gasoline Mixtures" (abstracts of papers of the American Chemical Society (169): 6-6 1975) and a paper along with colleague D.J. Cerini published for the Society of Automotive Engineers titled "On-Board Hydrogen Generator for a Partial Hydrogen Injection Internal Combustion Engine". There was also a paper of F.W. Hoehn and M.W. Dowy, also of the Jet Propulsion Lab, prepared for the 9th Intersociety Energy Conversion Engineering Conference, titled "Feasibility Demonstration of a Road Vehicle Fueled with Hydrogen Enriched Gasoline."

However, I don't think these older studies tried getting the hydrogen from water through electrolysis, and instead developed devices to extract it from the gasoline and re-feed it into the engine. But the concept of hydrogen injection into gasoline is the same: the hydrogen gas burns a lot hotter and, when burned in the engine along with the air and gasoline will burn the fuel more completely, resulting in more efficient gas mileage. I'd like to see scientific studies about the effectiveness of using water and electrolysis to obtain the small amounts of hydrogen this system requires. I don't know if it's a scam but I try to keep an open mind, especially considering how important it is that we develop more efficient systems for the use of energy. I think we need to study everything.

[BlueJazz]

9. I think it's Great...after all it's just Hydrogen and Oxygen.

Damn...why don't I ever think of those cool things....

[Rosco T.]

12. Try checking into things before you shoot off and look foolish will'ya?

they are splitting the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen and using the Hydrogen for fuel.


"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin

[Redstone]

13. Feh. If it really worked, wouldn't you think the car manufacturers would be offering

cars with that "system?" Especially given how much money they're spending to develop hybrid technology?

Gimme a break, here. There really IS no free lunch.

Redstone

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

14. I think a reason could be that it's supposedly dangerous

If the creation of hydroxy gas doesn't get shut off when the engine shuts off, it could create an explosion under the hood. You need a separate switch to shut it off if you're getting the electricity directly from the battery and it can't malfunction. And I wonder if the extra heat in the engine from the burning of the hydrogen has a negative effect on the valves and other internal engine parts.

[Redstone]

15. Hey, thanks for the info. Those WOULD be big liability concerns for

the manufacturers, wouldn't they?

Redstone

[dubyaD40web]

16. aint_no_life_nowhere

You are correct. A big explosion will occur if hydrogen is being made while the engine is not running. On my setup, this is fixed by running the power to my ignition switch. Hydrogen is only being created while my engine is running.

[madokie]

17. let me pick your brain a little bit

what terminal are you connecting the power wire to on the switch? Is it feeding the apparatus with the power it needs directly or is there something else in the circuit to do that? How much did it cost you to buy or did you use some extra parts you had lying around to make it with? What kind of electrodes are you using to make the hydrogen and oxygen with? And are they separated with only the hydrogen being used in the engine? I'm pretty handy at building things such as this and so I would appreciate any advice you may have.
peace

[dubyaD40web]

18. Here you go:

Actually, my truck has a "fuse center" under the hood. I tapped into a terminal that only powers when I start the engine. For me, this was easier than actually running the wire through the firewall and connecting it to the ignition switch in your stearing column. (Keep in mind, all cars are different.) There are plenty of options to power the HHO converter. Also, the power wire must have an in-line fuse attached. I use 30amps. These are easily available. I found a car amplifier wiring kit at the auto store that already had the in-line fuse built in and ready to go.

You can purchase all parts for around $50 - $100 dollars at your local hardware store. Or there are many people who make the kits and sell them to you. (For example: http://www.usewater4gas-kits.com/) This design is very similar to the one I built.

My electrodes are 316L stainless steel wire, twisted into a coil. The hydrogen exits the electrolizer into a "bubbler", then into the engine. The bubbler is a safety feature that makes sure the hydrogen doesn't backfire, etc and explode.

Good luck if you pursue this. Please please please do a lot of research beforehand.

[madokie]

40. So GM has a terminal that is switch operated that will supply one with several amps

at 12 volts for whatever the future owner may want to connect to it.:eyes: In all my years of working on and studying automobiles I have yet to find one that has a terminal as you are suggesting. Either there is some BS going on or I need you too enlighten me as to where I may locate this terminal.

I say this is bunk, OK

correct me if you will

[lumberjack_jeff]

44. Every car I've ever owned had at least one "ign" terminal on the fuse box.

Those terminals are hot when the ignition is on (or set to acc) to power devices such as radios that you want to shut off with the car.

Failing that, they make a device called a fuse tap with which you can tap into any circuit (switched or unswitched) that you wish.

Those terminals won't carry the kind of power which is required by significant electrolysis. For that you need a relay such as the one which allows your headlights to draw 20 amps.

Exactly how many years of automobile study does this encompass?

[madokie]

46. Yes but not to carry the load that this would require

The reason I asked to start with if there was something else involved is to see if this person is on the level in having done this themselves as they are implying. The ignition switch on any auto will not have a terminal that will switch on and off a load of what this would require, sorry.

I wait for the OP to reply and enlighten me as to how this is being done and upon being corrected I will do what is right. ;-)

A 60 year old can do man here at this keyboard








what terminal are you connecting the power wire to on the switch? Is it feeding the apparatus with the power it needs directly or is there something else in the circuit to do that? How much did it cost you to buy or did you use some extra parts you had lying around to make it with? What kind of electrodes are you using to make the hydrogen and oxygen with? And are they separated with only the hydrogen being used in the engine? I'm pretty handy at building things such as this and so I would appreciate any advice you may have.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

47. I don't know what system he's using, but here's a link to the most popular form of this booster

This is the one most of the people online have installed in their cars and the ones they are running fuel economy races on. There are quite a few technical details of the system explained, including how to design the electrolyzer and hook it up.

http://www.smacksboosters.110mb.com/

http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf

[madokie]

48. so how is this doing on your own auto

I just hope no one allowed the update to foxit reader that the last link there was wanting me to do.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

53. I'm not using a hydrogen booster - I'm just interested in reading about it

and about what others online are saying. I'm not the poster of whom you asked the question.

I try to keep an open mind and when I read dozens and dozens of posts from people at various websites reporting that this device works, it gives me reason to pause. I'm still a little skeptical and would like to see some actual scientific studies of this, the way scientists have studied other means to extract hydrogen from the gasoline itself and demonstated that it could improve gas mileage (see my other posts).

I'm more of the opinion that I'd like to transform some of my old cars to run on alcohol, with a separate alcohol fuel tank and line that patches into the fuel system ahead of the fuel filter. It would require modifications to the size of the carburetor jets in my old cars with carbs and changing the timing and the carb float. I have a Weber single barrel carb on an old vintage Saab and larger replacement jets are cheap and available. While alcohol supposedly gives you less mileage and it's hard to make it really pure, it can still be made cheaper than gas, probably for as little as $1.50 a gallon making it from sugar or molasses from a home still. And home still permits are available through the ATF if you swear out a statement that you will not use it to make alcohol for internal consumption.

[jmowreader]

49. I see a HUGE problem here

If you get into a wreck that stops the engine from running, but leaves that terminal connected, you'll still be producing hydrogen in perfect stoichiometric ratio--IOW, this is an explosion waiting to happen.

Here's how I'd fix it:

Find your crankshaft position sensor. Pulses come out of this thing when the engine is turning, and nothing comes out when it isn't. You'll tap into this sensor's output wire and attach, through a resistor, the LED side of an optoisolator.

On the phototransistor side of the optoisolator, you need to put a little hysteresis in there somehow--a touch of delay, so the following circuit thinks the output is high continuously instead of just when the crankshaft position sensor is transmitting pulses. I'd just use a fairly good size tantalum capacitor--470 microfarads should be plenty. Use a power transistor--the 2N3055 is a family favorite--to raise the voltage to 12v, which will switch a foglight relay (remember to wire a diode backward across the relay's coil!) that will power the MMO converter.

Here's what you just did: An optoisolator is a protective device. There's a light source and a light-activated switch in it. Turn on the light and the switch will turn on whatever it controls. This is in there to keep the relay that ultimately turns the MMO converter on from eating your engine computer. You're controlling this through a pulsed source, and pulsed power probably isn't good for the MMO converter nor is it good for the relay. Therefore, we need a device that will absorb electrical pulses and release them fairly slowly...capacitors do that, so we'll use a good-size one. And we'll use a tantalum cap because they're fairly heat-resistant. Now we can turn on the relay, but optoisolators aren't robust enough to keep a relay pulled in for any length of time without melting, so we are going to put a transistor--an electrically-operated switch--in the circuit. There's nothing really magical about the 2N3055 power transistor--we could probably get away with using a ten-cent 2N2222 (the most common transistor in the whole wide world) but we're looking for absolute reliability, which means we're looking for a transistor that can just sit under the hood and loaf. Hello, 2N3055! And finally we get to the relay. You wire it with a reversed diode because relays make lots of garbage, and the diode absorbs that. When you turn the car on, it will wait until the engine is turning fast enough to matter before it turns on the HHO generator.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. Another way of doing what you describe...

... is to wire it across the oil pressure sending unit or the fuel pump.

http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf

But I wouldn't get too worried about fire/explosion. It is true that if the water in the jug were to continue to be split into hydrogen and oxygen with the engine off, the air cleaner could act as a reservoir holding a meaningful volume of the gas.

... but probably still not so meaningful as the explosive potential of the fuel tank.

[jmowreader]

62. Oil pressure sending unit has potential...

but there you'd need an inverter, because most of 'em are normally-closed switches, and you'd have to hook it to a switched outlet instead of the battery.

And as for the fuel tank...umm...so long as the tank's intact, it has no explosive potential. Fuel vapor with oxygen in it in the proper quantity burns, liquid gasoline does not. (This is one of the benefits of racing: so many racers have been killed by breached fuel tanks over the years, the fuel tank companies learned to make very strong tanks. This has been passed down to you.) OTOH, when you run Brown's Gas it's at the proper fuel/air ratio to burn well by default.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. For Any Given Horsepower Output, Wouldn't The Heat ...

. . .Always Be The Same? If one gets 2.5 times as much energy per unit mass by combustion of hydrogen, then one would use 40% of the amount of hydrogen, and the total energy release would be the same. So, the heat would be a wash. Right?

The Professor

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

32. Supposedly the hydrogen is burning more of the gasoline

gasoline that normally goes unburned and gets sent down the exhaust to the catalytic converter. That's why this system supposedly works much better with older carburetted engines where there's more inefficient combustion. Supposedly, it isn't a wash, as more fuel is being consumed with the hydrogen than would be without it. The burst of hydrogen ignition supposedly consumes virtually all of the gasoline with which it's mixed. That's supposedly where the extra fuel efficiency is coming from.

[ProfessorGAC]

33. If The Mileage Is Improving. . .

. . .then it means there is less fuel being burned per unit time. That would mean even less heat. A joule is a joule. If you burn fewer kg to get the same amount of energy, it could never be more joules or more heat. So, if this works, it wouldn't make the engine any hotter. That would only happen if, because of all your efficiency gains, you drove faster.
GAC

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. The burning of straight hydrogen does cause engineering challenges.

i.e. how to keep all of the downstream components from rusting from the oxidized (burned) hydrogen

[Phillycat]

31. I don't know if the OP technology works, but I think that's a crappy argument.

The car companies are in bed with the oil companies.

[Redstone]

38. Uh, what would be the benefit to the car companies of "being in bed with

the oil companies?"

That wouldn't help them sell more cars - which, after all, is what they want to do.

Redstone

[librechik]

37. No. Not til they sell all their old inventory. Quite the opposite.

That guy should be hiring bodyguards.

[Evoman]

35. The question is..why not use the energy source for splitting the water instead of hydrogen?

Why not cut out the middleman and save yourself some energy?

[Swamp Rat]

20. "Run your car on water:....."

"... on pontoons with an outboard motor attached to the rear bumper."

That I could believe. :D

[Vickers]

21. A guy at work did this in order to disprove it, and he says it ended up working.

This is not some dummy, and he isn't selling it or trying to get other people to do it. He was surprised (in a good way).

He is going to retrofit his other vehicles.

[pt22]

23. He has a billion dollar gadget and isn't interested in selling it?

Do pigs fly out of his ass, too?
:eyes:

[Vickers]

24. I haven't noticed any pigs flying out of his ass, no.

Thank you for your interest in his ass.

:eyes:

[L0oniX]

25. No doubt, the same people who think Obama is a Muslim also believe...

they can run their cars on water.

[dubyaD40web]

26. Well, it's working for me.

And I'm not running my vehicle on water. I'm adding hydrogen to it. I still use gas, but not as much.

Oh, and I don't believe Obama is a muslim.

[L0oniX]

28. Good for you that you can afford one of those cars.

[dubyaD40web]

34. I didn't buy a car.

I modified my 2001 Siverado which runs on unleaded/hydrogen mix.

[sudopod]

30. LOL, this.

Ever notice how people who belive one nutty thing have to believe multiple nutty things?

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/06/crank_magnetism_in_action.php

[L0oniX]

39. "conspiracy theories are just like Lays potato chips; cranks can't eat just one" ...LOL

[sudopod]

29. The stupid

it huuuuuuuuurts.

[suffragette]

36. What? You never heard of Mamet's "The Water Engine" ?

:P

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105788/

[SteppingRazor]

64. Er .... that may be a fraud, but the concept isn't looney. In fact, it's been done:

http://in.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idINSP7366720080613