Alternative to Impeachment

[Xolodno]

Thus far all I've seen mostly is:

1. IMPEACH!!!! (in big letters)

2. Your not a democrat if your not for impeachment (that seems to have a familiar ring to it...coming from the GOP)

3. We Must defend the Constitution (I didn't know Bush was going over there with a hammer and a torch)

Problem with impeachment is that it opens a whole new can of worms. Nor do I think many are thinking this through. What are the chances Bush/Cheney have been expecting impeachment this whole time? I'd say very likely...and are hoping it will happen. They were very calculating in going to war and I'm wouldn't put it past them having a plan for this...that gets them off clean and clear. We already know there aren't enough votes to kick them out of office...my question is, what do they have planned should proceedings occur?

Sure, you can say this is about principles and the Constitution, but once it hits the media, it will be all about politics and the "principle" part will be lost. Comparisons warranted or unwarranted will be made to Lyndon Johnson and Vietnam and every other time a sitting President has used the Military with and without the approval of Congress. Whats seemed so clear and cut will suddenly look a lot murkier. And then of course, people will tire of it and conclude its about politics...

Impeachment will also rally the demoralized republicans and give then renewed vigor. In an election year, do you really want to give the Neo-Cons a viable chance at the executive office? Or potentially pick up congressional seats? The neo-cons need an issue to rally their troops and bring back those disaffected. Don't give them one. Particularly when their are too many issues domestically that also need attention. The Constitution is there to respect the Country and its people. Impeachment could have unintended consequences that disrespect the people, country and the Constitution.

If McCain takes office, what are the chances he will pardon Bush, Cheney and everyone else in the administration (with the exception of the republican whistle-blowers...hows that for a message) that was involved with this fiasco? I'd say pretty damn good chance he will. But most of all...

...Impeachment even if successful is just a slap on the wrist. Isn't what everyone really wants is a real investigation, with real charges brought up and actual criminal proceedings? Including for the soon to be former President? Yes he may take flight to Saudia Arabia or something, but wouldn't that be a much more clear message and accomplish what needs to be done? Accomplices could be given prison time (which would send a huge message for future administrations). Those involved could be (even if they fled the country) left as disgraced Americans and be put into the category of Benedict Arnold. Granted none of this can happen now while he's in office, but it can happen once he leaves in January. Why mess that up and give them impeachment which is what they probably want in the first place.

Don't think I'm going to change the minds of those who see red and smell blood, and I fully expect to get flamed for posting this, but I just think impeachment was a tool placed for use under the right circumstances and was expected to only be used when it was for certain to be successful. And when you include that there are other alternatives and that they could be made null and mute with an impeachment debacle, you essentially give them a "Get out of Jail" card.

[midnight]

1. Impeachment is the law.....

[TooBigaTent]

2. We know the law does not matter to repukes. Evidently, it does not matter to most Democrats either.

[Fovea]

5. Who says he's a Democrat?

Just sayin.

[Bob Dobbs]

3. Why clean up our own mess?

Let the rest of the world handle the dirty work at The Hague.

Enforcing constitutional law is so inconvenient politically.

[Fovea]

4. Where do I begin?

Perhaps at the end, working forward.

First:
Impeachment was not a tool to be used 'when it was for certain to be successful. Obviously you slept through American History. Impeachment was originally intended to be used when those in government used the office in a criminal, or malfeasant way.

I.E. Frequently.

Second:
Impeachment is not a slap on the wrist. It is a life sentence out of the halls of power. And no, successful flight from prosecution does not send the right message. And all that you say cannot happen while he is in office displays a true lack of understanding of what impeachment is about.

Third:
McSame (or Obama) can't pardon Bush if he's already impeached, and more importantly, Bush cannot then pardon his henchmen.
It is important that you understand how wrong you are on this point.

Fourth:
Impeachment will not rally the Republicans, it will deepen their shame and humiliation as the scope and true consequences of the Cheney years are presented in a clear format. Impeachment for cause does not disrespect the constitution. Go back and study it. Really.

Fifth:
This isn't just about lying to the American congress about Iraq.
THERE ARE 35 COUNTS in this indictment!!!

Sixth:
I guess it just has to be said again and again.
IMPEACHMENT IS NOT ABOUT WINNING A POLITICAL POO FLINGING CONTEST. IT IS ABOUT SAVING CONSTITUTIONAL GOVERNMENT!

But you clearly know so little about how our government works, and about the constitution itself that you don't understand that we are in a constitutional crisis bigger than any since 1860.

But you are not alone, sadly.

[Jack Rabbit]

6. Contra

Thus far all I've seen mostly is:

1. IMPEACH!!!! (in big letters)

2. Your not a democrat if your not for impeachment (that seems to have a familiar ring to it...coming from the GOP)

3. We Must defend the Constitution (I didn't know Bush was going over there with a hammer and a torch)

While I agree that point 1 is nothing but a battle cry and point two needs elaboration (BTW, as long as democrat is spelled with a small d, a good case could be made that your second point is true), your dismissal of point 3 is not well taken. Bush has used the practical power of the office of the president to gain even more power, far beyond what the Founding Fathers intended. Under Bush, the presidency has become a dictatorship subject to term limits and a quadrennial plebiscite, which is the President's only moment of accountability. Beyond that, in Bush's mind (or whatever it is), the president has the power to issue signing statements modifying acts of Congress to suit his whim; he has lied us into an unnecessary, imperialist war; he has unilaterally abrogated treaties to which the United States is party, including the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions of 1948 and the Convention against Torture; he conspired to blow the cover of a secret agent as a part of a political vendetta, consequently doing great damage to counter-proliferation efforts by the US government; he is currently attempting to establish a long term security arrangement without congressional approval; and he is currently conspiring to start a war against Iran without congressional approval.

The last point makes the impeachment and removal of Messrs. Bush and Cheney not only desirable but urgent. The next president, who is almost certainly Barack Obama, can ignore any security deal Bush makes with al-Maliki without congressional approval, but it would much more difficult to undo American troops being engaged in a war that nobody but the neoconservative war criminals wanted. It would be mischief unprecedented by any other situation in history.

Impeachment will also rally the demoralized republicans and give then renewed vigor. In an election year, do you really want to give the Neo-Cons a viable chance at the executive office? Or potentially pick up congressional seats? The neo-cons need an issue to rally their troops and bring back those disaffected. Don't give them one. Particularly when their are too many issues domestically that also need attention. The Constitution is there to respect the Country and its people. Impeachment could have unintended consequences that disrespect the people, country and the Constitution.

These arguments are mere fear mongering. It is by no means certain that demoralized Republicans will be revitalized by an impeachment effort. Neither is it by any means certain that the public, now ready to punish the GOP for the sins of Bush and Cheney, will rally to the GOP. After all, Bush has failed as president in every respect, not just those for which he can be impeached and removed. In addition to being the most tyrannical and authoritarian president in US history, Bush is the most incompetent and has had congressional Republicans standing behind him every questionable decision from going to war in Iraq to the upper class tax cut to cutting health care for uninsured children. The last two are not impeachable offenses, as unwise as they are, and the first isn't impeachable in and of itself but only for the way it was done.

Impeachment even if successful is just a slap on the wrist.

Yes, removal from office for war crimes is a mere slap on the war criminal's wrist. However, while the Constitution provides that the penalty for an impeachable office shall not extend beyond removal from office and the disqualification from holding office, it also specifically allows one impeached and convicted to be processed by the criminal justice system if that is appropriate. Bush, Cheney and their lieutenants should never be welcomed back into polite society, as Richard Clarke said the other day, but they should be prosecuted and held accountable for their heinous acts of imperialism and war. That is true whether they are successfully impeached and removed or not.

Therefore, I say: IMPEACH!!

[sallyseven]

7. How about arrest and jail time.

Maybe hugh fine like 175,000,000.