Experience v. Change - 1992 Debate - Bill Clinton v. George Bush Transcript

[Median Democrat]

I was reading through the transcript of the 1992 debate between George Bush, Sr., Bill Clinton and Ross Perot. It is earily similar to the ongoing debate between McCain and Obama with McCain criticizing change for the same of change and arguing in favor of experience while Bill Clinton hitting back on judgment, and pointing out that Bush's experience is in implementing failed economic policies. The key for Obama is to point out that notwithstanding his "experience" , McCain continues to want to extend Bush's economic policies:

Bill Clinton:
"That's because we believe in investing in education and in jobs. And we have to change in this country. You know, my wife, Hillary, gave me a book about a year ago in which the author defined insanity as just doing the same old thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We have got to have the courage to change. Experience is important, yes. I've gotten a lot of good experience in dealing with ordinary people over the last year and month. I've touched more people's lives and seen more heartbreak and hope, more pain and more promise, than anybody else who's run for president this year. I think the American people deserve better than they're getting."

Ironically, I think Obama can perhaps pulls this off better than Hillary, since Hillary touted "experience" as the most important factor.

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/showdebate.php?debateid=15

LEHRER: President Bush, one minute response, sir.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Well, I think one thing that distinguishes is experience. I think we've dramatically changed the world. I'll talk about that a little bit later, but the changes are mind-boggling for world peace. Kids go to bed at night without the same fear of nuclear war. And change for change sake isn't enough. We saw that message in the late 70s when heard a lot about change, and what happened, that misery index went right through the roof. But my economic program is the kind of change we want. And the way we're going to get it done is we're going to have a brand new Congress. A lot of them are thrown out because of all the scandals. I'll sit down with them, Democrats and Republicans alike, and work for my agenda for American renewal, which represents real change. But I'd say, if you had to separate out, I think it's experience at this level.

LEHRER: Governor Clinton, how do you respond to the President on the -- you have two minutes -- on the question of experience? He says that is what distinguishes him from the other two of you.

CLINTON: I believe experience counts, but it's not everything. Values, judgment, and the record that I have amassed in my state also should count for something. I've worked hard to create good jobs and to educate people. My state now ranks first in the country in job growth this year, fourth in income growth, fourth in reduction of poverty, third in overall economic performance, according to a major news magazine. That's because we believe in investing in education and in jobs. And we have to change in this country. You know, my wife, Hillary, gave me a book about a year ago in which the author defined insanity as just doing the same old thing over and over again and expecting a different result. We have got to have the courage to change. Experience is important, yes. I've gotten a lot of good experience in dealing with ordinary people over the last year and month. I've touched more people's lives and seen more heartbreak and hope, more pain and more promise, than anybody else who's run for president this year. I think the American people deserve better than they're getting. We have gone from first to thirteenth in the world in the last twelve years, since Mr. Bush and Mr. Reagan have been in. Personal income has dropped while people have worked harder. In the last four years, there have been twice as many bankruptcies as new jobs created. We need a new approach. The same old experience is not relevant. We're living in a new world after the Cold War, and what works in this new world is not trickle down, not government for the benefit of the privileged few, not tax and spend, but a commitment to invest in American jobs and American education, controlling American health care costs, and bringing the American people together. That is what works. And you can have the right kind of experience and the wrong kind of experience. Mine is rooted in the real lives of real people, and it will bring real results if we have the courage to change.

LEHRER: President Bush, one minute to respond.

BUSH: I just thought of another -- another big difference here between me. I don't believe Mr. Perot feels this way, but I know Governor Clinton did because I want to accurately quote him. He thinks, I think he said, that the country is coming apart at the seams. Now, I know that the only way he can win is to make everybody believe the economy's worse than it is. But this country is not coming apart at the seams, for heaven's sakes. We're the United States of America. In spite of the economic problems, we're the most respected economy around the world. Many would trade for it. We've been caught up in a global slowdown. We can do much, much better, but we ought not try to convince the American people that America is a country that's coming apart at the seams. I would hate to be running for president and think that the only way I could win would be to convince everybody how horrible things are. Yes, there are big problems, and yes, people are hurting. But I believe that this Agenda for American renewal I have is the answer to do it, and I believe we can get it done now, whereas we didn't in the past, because you're going to have a whole brand new bunch of people in the Congress that are going to have to listen to the same American people I'm listening to.

LEHRER: Mr. Perot, a minute response, sir.

PEROT: Well, they've got a point. I don't have any experience in running up a $4 trillion debt. (Laughter.) I don't have any experience in gridlock government where nobody takes responsibility for anything and everybody blames everybody else. I don't have any experience in creating the worst public school system in the industrialized world, but I do have a lot of experience in getting things done. So, if we're at a point in history where we want to stop talking about it and do it, I've got a lot of experience in figuring out how to solve problems, making the solutions work, and then moving on to the next one. I've got a lot of experience in not taking 10 years to solve a 10-minute problem. So, if it's time for action, I think I have experience that counts. If there's more time for gridlock and talk and finger pointing, I'm the wrong man.

LEHRER: President Bush, the question goes to you. you have two minutes. And the question is this: Are there important issues of character separating you from these other two men?

BUSH: I think the American people should be the judge of that. I think character is a very important question. I said something the other day where I was accused of being like Joe McCarthy because I questioned -- I put it this way; I think it's wrong to demonstrate against your own country or organize demonstrations against your own country in foreign soil. I just think it's wrong. I -- well, maybe they say, "Well, it was a youthful indiscretion." I was 19 or 20 flying off an aircraft carrier and that shaped me to be Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces and I'm sorry, but demonstrating -- it's not a question of patriotism. It's a question of character and judgment. They get on me -- Bill's gotten on me about, "read my lips." When I make a mistake I'll admit it. But he has made -- not admitted a mistake and I just find it impossible to understand how an American can demonstrate against his own country in a foreign land -- organizing demonstrations against it when young men are held prisoner in Hanoi or kids out of the ghetto were drafted. Some say, "well, you're a little old fashioned." Maybe I am, but I just don't think that's right. Now, whether it's character or judgment -- whatever it is -- I have a big difference here on this issue and so we'll just have to see how it plays out. But I -- I couldn't do that. And I don't think most Americans could do that. And they all say, "Well, it was a long time ago." Well, let's admit it then. Say, "I made a terrible mistake." How could you be Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces and have some kid say -- when you have to make a tough decision, as I did in Panama or Kuwait and then have some kid jump up and say, "Well, I'm not going to go. The Commander-in-Chief was organizing demonstrations halfway around the world during another era. So there are differences but that's about the main area where I think we have a difference. I don't know about -- we'll talk about that a little with Ross here in a bit.

LEHRER: Mr. Perot, you have one minute.

PEROT: I think the American people will make their own decisions on character and at a time when we have work to do and we need action I think they need to clearly understand the backgrounds of each person. I think the press can play a huge roll in making sure that the backgrounds are clearly presented in an objective way. Then, make a decision. Certainly anyone in the White House should have the character to be there. But, I think it's very important to measure when and where things occurred. Did they occur when you were a young person, in your formative years? Or did they occur while you were a senior official in the federal government? If you make it as a young man, time passes. So I would say just, you know, look at all three of us. Decide who you think will do the job. Pick that person in November because believe me, as I've said before, "The party's over and it's time for the clean-up crew." And we do have to have change and people who never take responsibility for anything when it happens on their watch and people who are in charge --

LEHRER: Your time is up.

PEROT: The time is up. (Laughter).

LEHRER: The time is up.

PEROT: More later.

LEHRER: Governor Clinton, you have one minute.

CLINTON: Ross gave a good answer but I've got to respond directly to Mr. Bush. You have questioned my patriotism.

BUSH: (Inaudible).

CLINTON: You even brought some right-wing congressman into the White House to plot how to attack me for going to Russia in 1969-70, when over 50,000 other Americans did. Now, I honor your service in World War II, I honor Mr. Perot's service in uniform and the service of every man and woman who ever served, including Admiral Crowe, who was your Chairman of the joint Chiefs and who's supporting me. But when Joe McCarthy went around this country attacking people's patriotism he was wrong. He was wrong. And a senator from Connecticut stood up to him named Prescott Bush. Your father was right to stand up to Joe McCarthy, you were wrong to attack my patriotism. I was opposed to the war but I loved my country and we need a president who will bring this country together, not divide it. We've had enough division. I want to lead a unified country.

(APPLAUSE)

LEHRER: We move now to the subject of taxes and spending. The question goes to Governor Clinton for a two minutes answer. It will be asked by Ann Compton. ANN

COMPTON: Governor Clinton, can you lock in a level here tonight on where middle-income families can be guaranteed a tax cut or, at the very least, at what income level they can be guaranteed no tax increase?

CLINTON: The tax increase I have proposed triggers in at family incomes of $200,000 and above. Those are the people who in the 1980s had their incomes go up while their taxes went down. Middle-class people, defined as people with incomes of $52,000 and down, had their incomes go down while their taxes went up in the Reagan-Bush years because of 6 increases in the payroll taxes. So that is where my income limit would trigger.

COMPTON: There will be no tax increases--

CLINTON: Right. My plan -

COMPTON: --below 200,000--

CLINTON: --notwithstanding my opponent's ad, my plan triggers in at gross incomes, family incomes of $200,000 and above. Then we want to give modest middle-class tax relief to restore some fairness, especially to middle- class people with families with incomes of under $60,000. In addition to that, the money that I raise from upper-income people and from asking foreign corporations just to pay the same income on their income earned in America that American corporations do will be used to give incentives back to upper-income people. I want to give people permanent incentives on investment tax credit, like President Kennedy and the Congress inaugurated in the early '60s to get industry moving again; a research and development tax credit; a low-income housing tax credit; a long-term capital gains proposal for new business and business expansions. We've got to have no more trickle down. We don't need across-the-board tax cuts for the wealthy for nothing. We need to say here's your tax incentive: if you create American jobs, the old-fashioned way. I'd like to create more millionaires than were created under Mr. Bush and Mr. Reagan, but I don't want to have 4 years where we have no growth in the private sector, and that's what's happened in the last 4 years. We're down 35,000 jobs in the private sector. We need to invest and grow, and that's what I want to do.

LEHRER: President Bush, one minute, sir.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Well, let me--I have to correct one thing. I didn't question the man's patriotism. I questioned his judgment and his character. What he did in Moscow, that's fine. Let him explain it. He did. I accept that. What I don't accept is demonstrating and organizing demonstrations in a foreign country when your country's at war. I'm sorry. I cannot accept it. In terms of this one on taxes spells out the biggest different between us. I do not believe we need to go back to the Mondale proposals or the Dukakis proposals of tax and spend. Governor Clinton says $200,000 but he also says he wants to raise $150 billion. Taxing people over $200,000 will not get you $150 billion. And then when you add in his other spending proposals, regrettably you end up socking it to the working man. That old adage they use--we're going to soak the rich- -we're going to soak the rich--it always ends up being the poor cab driver or the working man that ends up paying the bill. And so I just have a different approach. I believe the way to get the deficit down is to control the growth of mandatory spending programs, and not raise taxes on the American people. We've got a big difference there.

LEHRER: Mr. Perot, one minute.

(APPLAUSE)

PEROT: We've got to have a growing, expanding job base to give us a growing, expanding tax base. Right now we have a flat to deteriorating job base and where it appears to be growing, it's minimum-wage jobs. So we've got to really rebuild our job base. That's going to take money for infrastructure and investment to do that. Our foreign competitors are doing it; we're not. We cannot pay off the $4 trillion debt, balance the budget and have the industries of the future and the high- paying jobs in this country without having the revenue. We're going to go through a period of shared sacrifice. There's one challenge. It's got to be fair. We've created a mess, don't have much to show for it and we have got to fix it. And that's about all I can say in a minute.