Decline in Southern Baptists? "threatened because they have a very rule-bound God."

[madfloridian]

There is a good column by a local religion editor today about the decline in the membership of Southern Baptists. This is of great concern in Central Florida because of the number of those churches here.

I was raised Southern Baptist, and hubby and I left the church when they supported the Iraq War. There was a takeover by those with extreme views. This article points out a lot of things going on of which I had not been aware.

It also makes what I posted yesterday about our Democrats caving in on funding such things as abstinence only training....even more important and relevant.

Cary McMullen's article presents several pertinent issues going on. I found his quote from Christine Wicker in her new book most revealing.

Southern Baptists Worry About Decline

At least one critic is referring to the decline as a crisis inside the church and said the much-vaunted cultural and political dominance of evangelicals is a mirage.

"We've been led to believe evangelicals represent 25 percent of the country, that a majority of Christians are in this movement. Their voices have drowned out everyone else's, and I think that's a shame," said Christine Wicker, author of the just-released book, "The Fall of the Evangelical Nation" (HarperOne, 221 pages). "We've been duped to believe they're much larger and more powerful than they are."

This statement by Wicker really caught my attention because I have seen this "rule bound" theory of God in action here.

"They're not dropping out of the faith, they're constructing their own. Traditional faiths are not helping them, so they're coming up with their own ideas," Wicker said. "Evangelicals are tremendously threatened because they have a very rule-bound God."

A pastor admits church rolls are inflated.

But the total membership - 16.26 million in 2007 - which has been the foundation of the claim to be the nation's largest Protestant denomination, is almost universally agreed to be inflated. Friends and relatives are kept on church rolls for sentimental reasons, even if they no longer live in the city where the church sits.

The Rev. Tom Ascol, pastor of Grace Baptist Church in Cape Coral, will introduce a resolution at this week's convention challenging the practice.

"The rolls of most of our churches have been bloated for at least a generation, and it's just gotten worse. If one-third to 40 percent of our members show up with regularity, that's considered to be healthy," he said by phone recently. "It's hypocritical."

And yet these are vocal voices to the extent that our Democrats approved Bush's Supreme Court judges who suited this group more than they did the majority of Americans.

They have been making inroads into women's rights...even getting pharmacists to deny birth control or emergency contraception. Getting late term abortions usually done to save the life of the mother termed into a criminal act for which a doctor could be jailed.

That group was so vocal it got our Democrats who took over congress in 2006 to greatly increase funding for a program that just doesn't work.

Back in November of 2006, after the Democrats won control of the House, what kind of odds do you think you would have gotten on the following scenario: With the Democrats in control, the appropriations cycle begins and the first big policy step the Democrats take on domestic reproductive health is to push through a 30 percent increase in abstinence-only-until-marriage programs that prohibit information about condoms and birth control. Oh, and by the way, that increase (to $140 million) is larger than any put forward in the last three years of the Republican-led Congress.

“Huh?” you might ask.
Abstinence only forces pushing again

Wicker, in her book mentioned above, states that "committed evangelicals, who attend church regularly and fully subscribe to evangelical beliefs, are only about 7 percent of the population, less than a third of what has been claimed."

Rather pathetic numbers considering the power they hold over Congress.

[featherman]

1. "committed evangelicals.... are only about 7 percent of the population"

Food for thought

[ChairmanAgnostic]

17. the first thought. TIS A MAJOR MISTAKE for the Democrats to

get on their knees and beg for these deluded, irrational, assholes to come join us.

Purity balls? Mental indoctrination of youth amounting to brain washing?
Intelligent Design?
anti-science? anti-rational thinking?

the 7 percent solution is wrong, and democrats would be idiots to seek them out. screw them.

[madfloridian]

20. Amen.

They are extremists and in the minority.

[MJJP21]

32. I'll second that

I'll second that but what is important is how many of those 7% are actively involved in govt. It must be overwhelming since so much of their mindset has prevailed over the past several years. Courting these people is tantamount to inviting the Trojan Horse in for dinner.

[defendandprotect]

55. Actually, I think you're right in that . . . Prof. Mark Crispin Miller mentions that . . .

in one of his books ---
he kind of pointed to the Evangelicals for helping with election steals ---
That's my impression of what he wrote ---

[roguevalley]

30. younger folks are leaving, they are embarrassed by the agendas

these folks shove.

[madfloridian]

31. Good point. I imagine you are right.

The agendas are from another time.

[Dr.Phool]

57. The important thing is, How do we blame this on Howard Dean?

:rofl:

[PDJane]

2. That's a very rich and very noisy 7%.....eom

[ChairmanAgnostic]

4. squeaky wheels, and all that.

[truedelphi]

3. You might be interested in this tidbit - one of the talking heads at the "700 Club"

Was reviewing the recent spate of books on atheism. He actually let it slip that one reason people are finding atheism attractive is because at least atheism doesn't advocate for wars.

Maybe some of the Baptists who are truly concerned with spiritual matters (like you and your husband) will be able to have an impact on those that have twisted the Holy Bible into being a manual on hating gays, abortion and Muslims.

[murielm99]

8. Jimmy Carter has tried very hard to get his church

back on track, and away from the politicizing and moralizing.

I read his book "Our Endangered Values." The book is on this subject. It is a little book, and written simply enough that it does not take a theologian to understand it. See if you can find it at the library.

[truedelphi]

10. I'll try and order it through Alibris and get it used.

Thanks for the tip.

[madfloridian]

16. He cut ties to the SBC.

http://edition.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/10/20/carter.baptists.ap/

"ATLANTA (AP) -- The Southern Baptists, already suffering from defections because of the denomination's conservative positions, have lost one of their best-known members: Jimmy Carter.

The former president, whose evangelical Christian faith figured prominently in his 1976 White House campaign, said in a letter mailed to fellow Baptists that he is cutting ties to the Southern Baptist Convention after struggling with the "increasingly rigid" creed of the nation's largest Protestant denomination.

Some of the group's positions, including recent decisions barring women pastors and declaring that wives should "submit graciously" to their husbands, "violate the basic premises of my Christian faith," Carter wrote.

"I've made this decision with a great deal of pain and reluctance," the 76-year-old Carter told The Associated Press on Friday."

Carter will remain a deacon at Maranatha Baptist Church in Plains, where he has served as a Sunday school teacher since he was 18. Last month, at Carter's urging, Maranatha voted to divert half its mission contributions from the SBC to a less conservative group of congregations.

Carter said in his letter that he and his wife, Rosalynn, will associate with Baptist groups "who share such beliefs as separation of church and state ... a free religious press, and equality of women."

[murielm99]

19. I think I read this a while ago.

My husband got the Carter book for me for Christmas two years ago. I enjoyed it.

[Wizard777]

5. Texas CPS tried to get the Baptists a couple hundred new members from the FLDS.

Thus forms the motive for the A) 6 Genocide.

[murielm99]

9. You need to stopping harping about that warped FLDS

cult. We are talking about the church and politics in this thread, specifically a MAINSTREAM church.

[Wizard777]

12. Who decides what makes a church "MAINSTREAM?"

With their declining membership. How much longer before the baptists are a "cult?"

[murielm99]

13. There are specific traits and doctrines to look for when

determining whether a belief system is a religion or a cult. I have posted about the definition in the past. Religious denominations, like Lutheran or Baptist are not cults. Nor are Sunni or Shia Muslims.

Go do your own research. I am convinced that it would be good for you to take some time out from shilling for the FLDS.

[Wizard777]

24. Cult is a pejorative used to justify persecution. In Rome Christianity was a Cult.

A very dangerous cult at that. They worshiped a criminal that Rome had executed and shuned Roman Authority. Any of this sound familiar?

[alarimer]

15. I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Genocide refers to attempting to wipe out an ethnic group by killing them. Armenians, Jews, Tutsis those are all, in some sense, ethnic groups. Religions per se are not ethnic groups. And besides no one is killing the FLDS.

[Wizard777]

29. No that's A) 1 Genocide. This was A) 6 Genocide. It does apply to religious groups.

It's also punishable under US Law.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00001091----000-.html"> This is US Code on Genocide.

It should bring you up to speed on what is genocide by US law.

(a) Basic Offense.— Whoever, whether in time of peace or in time of war, in a circumstance described in subsection (d) and with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group as such—

(6) transfers by force children of the group to another group;

Like transferring by force the Children of the FLDS to the Baptists. Open and shut A)6 genocide. Genocide is almost always done as a matter of law. Even the most famous of all genocides against the Jews. Hitler was merely enforcing German law that made it illegal to be a jew. But it's irrelevant. The compelling nature of law constitutes force. I know all about Genocide and what happened in Texas was indeed genocide.

[LanternWaste]

36. Any peer reviewed articles, books, monographs, etc.?

And you have absolute, specific, and relevant knowledge/evidence of the state's attempt to destroy this religion from....?

Any peer reviewed articles, books, monographs, etc. which support your claim?

Or (and I find this more likely), it's mere supposition on your part?

[Occulus]

49. If what you say is true, the FLDS in that case is actually the guilty party in the first place n/t

[Warpy]

6. Rules initially look appealing because you always

know exactly where you stand in life. As long as you play by the rules, all will be well and you can expect things to be reasonably predictable.

Following those rules is no longer the guarantee it once was, though.

What is really happening is probably economic, that people just can't afford the tithing expected of good church members. Prosperity theology isn't working any more and they can't afford to throw good money after bad. Their names will remain on church rolls until long after they're dead and buried.

[Fovea]

7. Rules without fair, honest enforcement

are not rules, but dictates.

I think your point about prosperity theology is entirely to the point.

Predestination doesn't look so hot if you realize you are not one of the elect.

Then, when you see that the elect are comprised of blood diamond merchants, war pigs, and wide-stance homophobes, one's uncritical faith is shown as gullibility.

That is why Thomas is the most important of the disciples-- because he doubts, and still can believe once shown proof.

[sendero]

25. "Prosperity theology isn't working any more "...

.... EXACTLY.

The Money Christians are going broke. What a shock it must be to them to find that the "abundant life" spoken of in the bible has nothing to do with money.

The economic disaster looming has more effects in store than just turning middle class people into working poor people and turning poor people into homeless people, it is going to rock the foundations of our political and religious systems.

And the changes in those systems will be for the good, although coming at a high cost.

[GreenPartyVoter]

50. Yep. Some people crave that kind of structure. For me, it chafes.

[lovuian]

11. more and more are going to drop out too

its just they are too literal

[The Backlash Cometh]

14. Imagine how much control they can take once they co-op an already

existing crony network.

[madfloridian]

18. Very powerful sig line.

You are right.

I despair for my state.

[The Backlash Cometh]

35. Your eyes are now fully open.

[madfloridian]

46. Yep.

They are.

[SpiralHawk]

21. "Pluto is going back into Sagitarius this month." - Ronald Reagan's Dead Republicon Astrologer

"And it will nuke around in Sag through the Olympics and the US election, not getting back into Capricorn until late November. You know what that means. If not, check with you local republicon occultist. Smirk."

- Ronald Reagan's Dead Republicon Astrologer*


* Courageously channeled by Ye Olde Spirale Hawke from the vast netherworld of Republicon occultism.

[mitchum]

22. Good! Are they holding them under longer?

about time

[Manifestor_of_Light]

23. Dragged kicking and screaming into the 19th Century.

I mean that literally. They were in favor of slavery since it was in the Bible. The National Baptist Association (the black Baptists) refused to join the Southern Baptists over this.

It's about time. Good riddance to their guilt and shame-inducing crapola.

That crap about women being submissive is just not acceptable to most of us these days. Paul was a woman hater anyway.

Yet another rule-obsessed psychologically damaging denomination.

[madfloridian]

27. That reminds me of a letter about the evolution controversy here....

When our school board was much against teaching evolution. Someone sent this letter to the local paper.

Polk County, Florida: "Shaping children's minds to meet the demands of the 19th century."

Now that in a majority sampling of the Polk County School Board has indicated that a biblical explanation or creation should be taught along with evolution in science classes, I would like to humbly suggest a few other minor changes in the county. First, let's change all the road signs coming into the county to read, 'Welcome to Polk County — turn your clocks back 100 years.' Second, let's have the school motto changed to say: 'Shaping children's minds to meet the demands of the 19th century.'

One has to wonder what has happened to the constitutional provision for the separation of church and state. I suppose the School Board will have to edit that out of civics classes just to be on the safe side.

Good point...and they keep trying to drag us backwards.

[Mr. Blonde]

39. Living in Oklahoma and being in my 20s

I get the opportunity to go to a lot of Baptist weddings. The instruction given to the bride amazes me. It sounds to me like they think women should turn their brains in on getting married and not so much as take a piss without hubby's permission. I don't know why anyone would want to sign up for that. I also think it would take a pretty insecure man to want a stepford wife. Just my thought on that part of things.

[Ilsa]

26. I've read snippets of "The Fall of the Evangelical Nation" on Amazon.

Southern Baptists aren't the only ones with inflated membership roles. The Roman Catholic Church and LDS have inflated roles as well.

In one section of the book, there was a discussion on how little is actually collected for missions by the SBC. The per person amount of the Collective Offering ("Anne Armstrong", etc) was just a few bucks per person. The administration of the SBC and individual churches sucks up a huge part of the churches' budget, I bet. I keep wondering when I'm going to meet a SBC minister that isn't overfed.

[madfloridian]

28. Do you think it is worth buying?

I buy too many books, I'm afraid.

[Midwest_Doc]

37. Yes - Get the Book

I'm reading the adobe e-book version right now. Interesting and well-reasoned without being judgmental.

[Ilsa]

38. I buy too many books also. The pile is high. Have you checked

with your library? Maybe they could get it on loan.

[madfloridian]

44. I think that is what I will do.

I get carried away buying books I get enthusiastic about...and then I don't get around to reading them. I usually get summaries online.

[tsuki]

33. This is a site that you might like.

www.talk2action.org

Their series Shadow War, The Battle for Mainstream Faith (the covert campaign against liberal Churches and the social justice tradition) is very interesting. It covers the take-over of the Southern Baptists by the right-wing fundamentalists, and the attack on the UCC, UMC and others.

Frederick Clarkson: http://www.talk2action.org/story/2006/2/11/13559/0530

"Once upon a time, the member denominations of the National Council of Churches maintained a vigorous social witness. That's what such mainline Protestants as the Presbyterians, United Church of Christ, the Methodists, and the Episcopals called their stands for social justice including such things as civil rights for African Americans, equality for women -- including ordination, and opposition to the excesses of American foreign policy from Vietnam to El Salvador. While there was some conservative opposition to these advances over the course of the 20th century, including some schisms, the direction of mainline protestantism was clear.

Then, the strategic funders of the Right, such as Richard Mellon Scaife and several others, helped create an agency that would help to network, organize and inform internal opposition groups. That agency is still around and is called the Institute on Religion and Democracy

....Many in the mainline churches are waking up to the simple fact that they have been under attack for more than two decades by rightist interests set on neutralizing their effectiveness -- and that the IRD and its allies have had considerable success.

....IRD remains a well-funded and influential agency to this day. It's minions in the mainline churches are treated as credible spokespersons for conservative dissent by mainstream religion reporters."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. Yup, they're the ones stirring up the anti-gay sentiments in the Episcopal church

In my experience, most Episcopalians are very live and let live, but precisely because we don't enforce a specific set of behavioral rules we're vulnerable to anyone who wants to veer in a more straitlaced direction.

But the church as a whole spoke out against the Iraq invasion, not that anyone in the mainstream press noticed, busy as they were interviewing the right-wing nutcases.

[madfloridian]

47. I like the talk2action site a lot.

I like to read what Frederick Carlson posts.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/6/4/134917/8697/Front_Page/Short_Takes

[SirDaddybear]

34. Last days

tis just a sign of the latter days...when people's hearts shall wax cold and there is a turning away from the good...in lieu of evil...I believe Bush ushered in the end times:)

[Kansas Wyatt]

41. But this alleged "third" of the country are what handed Bush the Presidency.

Pundits everywhere parroting about how Rove turned out the Evangelical vote to give Bush his TWO alleged wins.

[madfloridian]

51. Well, think about how the Patriot Pastors organized in Ohio?

They caught us off guard. I was watching So Goes the Nation...it alarmed me how they did it.

[Bake]

42. Membership rolls have been inflated forever

The Baptist church in which I grew up had over 3,000 on the rolls, but if we had 1,000 present on a given Sunday (other than Easter Sunday, of course!) the place was packed.

Bake

[Vickers]

48. Somehow my name ended up on some kind of mailing list for my

mom's church. :eyes:

I'm sure they count me (and my wife....and kids?) as a members, even though I've only been in there twice (dad's funeral, niece's wedding).

[ProdigalJunkMail]

58. that is the exact opposite of our huge baptist church

in the suburbs of ATL. We had about 1200 members but on any given sunday you would see three services in the main sanctuary (that sat 1400+the choir loft) filled to overflowing...

sP

[madfloridian]

43. There is a chat with Christine Wicker going on right now. Link.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20080609/NEWS/450564064/1410&title=Chat_at_Noon__The_Fall_of_the_Evangelical_Nation

"Do you wonder whether Southern Baptists and other evangelicals have as much clout as they claim? Log in to chat or see what others say about the issue at noon today: http://forums.theledger.com/eve/chat

Christine Wicker, author of "The Fall of the Evangelical Nation" and a former religion reporter for the Dallas Morning News, will be on hand to discuss the issue with Ledger readers and answer questions."

[Manifestor_of_Light]

45. Then there are Jews for Jesus.

An oxymoron if I ever heard one.

Jews for Jesus is a front group for the Southern Baptists.

www.jewsforjudaism.org

QUOTE FROM THEIR WEBSITE:
DECEPTION
The missionary may tell you that he (or a Christian friend or acquaintance) was once an Orthodox Jew, or that he had a solid Jewish education, a traditional Jewish family life, etc. This is almost always a lie, so don't let him fool you. The hidden message that he is attempting to convey is that he came to believe in Jesus after knowing and overcoming all of the Jewish objections, and therefore, why should you bother to check it out?

He may drop certain Yiddish phrases or talk about the details of his "traditional" Jewish upbringing, in order to lend more credence to his story. In fact, his "memory" is often the result of careful coaching.

Usually, all that is necessary to expose this type of hoax is to ask him about various small details of Jewish life that any observant Jewish child would know, and see how he responds. In almost all cases, he will begin to hedge about the extent of his "background" and "Jewish knowledge". Unfortunately, most Jews are themselves not knowledgeable enough to be able to expose this type of deception.

In the same vein, the missionary might tell you that he knows the Jewish objections to his arguments, and will then proceed to show how such objectives are ill-founded. Don't expect to hear the real Jewish response from such a source.

UNQUOTE

Messianic Jews make me ill. :puke:

[Zambero]

52. Nobody's challenging their right to live by those rules

It's their attempts at ramming the rules down the throats of everyone else that is an issue. Opposition to gay marriage and equal rights for gays and lesbians, opposition to stem cell research, pushing religious education in public schools, challenging accredited science curriculums, abstinence-only sex education, opposition to reproductive rights -- these actions are not acceptable in a free society, beyond the bounds of one's personal religious beliefs.

[madfloridian]

53. Agreed. That is exactly right.

:hi:

[krispos42]

54. "The Moral Majority Is Neither"

Hell, we've been telling them that for year with easy-to-read stickers prominately displayed on our vehicles!

Why the surprise?

[defendandprotect]

56. Keep in mind that the GOP gave "start up" money to the "Moral Majority" . . . .

We have to understand how organized patriarchal religions are the UNDERPINNING for patriarchy, itself . . .

How "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" are licenses for the few to exploit nature,
natural resources, animal-life --- and even other human beings according to various myths of inferiority!!!!

[DBoon]

59. Isn't 7% about the GLBT portion of the population?

interesting coincidence if so.

[TrogL]

60. Somewhere between 5-10% (or 100%) depending whose definition you use

I'm with the 100% crowd. Everybody is bi-sexual to a certain extent. Think you're not? Then you'd better stop watching that wrestling show.

[DBoon]

63. I've heard the 5%-10% figure used to belittle the GLBT population

as though to say that the GLBT folks are a fringe group trying to sway the majority to their view.

Now if fundamentalist evangelicals are really just 7% of the population, who is the true fringe group here? What tiny minority is trying to impose its way of life?

[bmichaelh]

61. I am an ex-Southern Baptist

I am a former Southern Baptist.

I have determined that I will no longer sit in a Southern Baptist Church except for weddings or funerals.

They were one of the first cheerleaders of the Iraq War.

[rosesaylavee]

62. Remember when we NEVER mentioned our

religious beliefs in public unless we were in our places of worship? Lets savor that memory a moment. This was prior to the republicans' so-called Contract with America.

May those times come back to us very very soon.