HEY, fill up your tank with FOOD!!!! GOD are we stupid or what?

[Tyler Durden]

The next time I hear some asshole BRAG about his "Flex Fuel 85" vehicle, or I hear some other asshole talk about ETHANOL and how it's going to save us all, Clancy is going to lower the boom.

As staple prices shoot through the roof:


Any idiot can clearly see this due at least to a good margin to ETHANOL production:


Which of course BESIDES causing World Hunger causes economies to TANK:


But HEY, we all want to "SEE THE USA, IN OUR CHEVROLET," right? so:


Did anybody really think that the US commodity producers and traders didn't see this gold mine a mile off?
Does anyone really think that the US Ethanol industry was going to "take one for the team" and ferment sawgrass?

We don't HAVE to wait for Iran or any other boogieman to wipe us out: the world depression that's coming, thanks to us and China (to a lesser extent) will do it for them.

[Electric Flag]

1. I'd recommend this if I could. Very poignant.

Ethanol is NOT the solution.

[annabanana]

2. Welcome to DU. I agree, and have recommended.

It is way way past time for Americans to look beyond the borders and acknowledge our responsibility for how the rest of the world lives..

[liberal N proud]

6. When it first was introduced as an additive to gas

I thought great idea.
Once I looked at the economics of it, and that was before inflation took it's grip, I realized we can't do this.

There are many other alternatives including using the cornstalk vs. the actual grain. But even that is not economical.

We need an entirely new fuel which will require new infrastructure and drastic changes in the vehicles we drive.


Oh, and welcome to DU

[Historic NY]

8. Got you covered your right ethanol is killing us.........

you cannot grown your way out of an energy crisis, we tried and failed in the 70's and it will fail again. The failed policies of this administration represent the giant fleecing of America.

http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/aug01/corn-basedethanol.hrs.html

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/july05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/story?id=34440

http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/papers/Biofuels/NRRethanol.2005.pdf

http://media.www.trumanindex.com/media/storage/paper607/news/2008/05/01/News/Cost-Concerns.Drive.Ethanol.Debate-3360160.shtml

http://zfacts.com/p/60.html

http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/cooke/2007/0202.html

[Tyler Durden]

13. and guys like the one down thread:

[femrap]

25. Could hemp be used as corn/sugar beets

are to make fuel? It's a weed and no one eats it. I hope so...that could solve a big problem. Of course hemp could be used for so many things...it's such a strong fiber and could be used instead of plastic.

[sam sarrha]

3. Bu$hitCo deregulated Food Commodities for speculation, his crony's are like a bunch of

F'n monkeys at a salad bar..

[Tyler Durden]

4. And this is exactly what some of us predicted for years....

AND what we got royally flamed for.

I do not like saying "I told you so." I would rather people just did the right god damned thing.

[ColbertWatcher]

5. Yup.

Now maybe we won't hear any more of this crap about ethanol being behind the "food crisis".

[Tyler Durden]

7. You're missing the point here.

Industry WILL NOT do anything other than ferment FOOD until someone FORCES THEM.

Do you see anyone doing that?

Then the solution is NOT ethanol, and thanks to the powers that be, ethanol IS behind a large percentage of the food crisis.

[ColbertWatcher]

9. The point?

Ethanol is not behind the food crisis not matter how many times the oil corporations want it to be.

This "debate" has been on this forum for the last few weeks and every single time the thread peters out due to the facts being presented proving ethanol is not behind the food crisis.

Don't worry if your thread dies; someone will repeat this talking point again in a few days and the so-called "debate" will repeat itself.

[Tyler Durden]

10. Tell you what:

After you check where the oil and food grains are going and what percentage are going to Ethanol, when we don't really need it, give me a buzz.

I've done my homework. The Oil companies are part of the commodities scam: they are BUYING parts of people like Archer Daniels Midland. They LIKE ethanol; it's another product to SELL, and one they don't have to import from ARABIA.

And if Ethanol use 10% of the food grains (which is low) then it would STILL be an affront to a hungry world. Electric is the way to power vehicles.

[ColbertWatcher]

11. My last post on this thread...

...commodities speculations are behind the so-called "food crisis". Just as it is in Africa, Haiti and everywhere else people are starving.

Ethanol has nothing to do with it.

[Tyler Durden]

12. AND Cornell University disagrees with you:

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/story?id=34440

But hey, everyone's entitled to their own opinion, said the first mate to the Captain of the TITANIC.

[Ikonoklast]

14. That article is about the energy return benefit of ethanol derived from corn

It says nothing about using cereal grains for ethanol as far as it relates to food shortages.

You realize that speculation has everything to do with commodity prices, and the absolute driving force behind them? You realize starvation and food shortages around the world are mostly political and logistical in nature, and have nothing to do with food inventory worldwide?

Contrary to poular belief and media sensationalism, there is no shortage of food in the world. There is a shortage of money in the poorer nations to pay for it. Hell, India is one of the worlds largest wheat exporters, but I'm sure you can find some poor hungry people there.

Ethanol derived from cereal grains may have a decidedly small energy benefit versus input, but Big Oil is funding any and all study and researcher to get on their bandwagon against it. Just like studies funded by Big Tobacco having doctors tell us smoking is good for you.

[Tyler Durden]

15. And soybeans, and switch grass...

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/july05/ethanol.toocostly.ssl.html

What happens to cereal grain production when the fields are turned to corn or soy?
Exactly.

[hankthecrank]

17. Not all farms can switch crops

Some farms can only grow what they get enough water to support

These same farms can't irrigate enough to switch crops

Grain uses less water and out west it works.

All land use in your words should be food.

I guess we need to look at your back yard and tell you what you are going to plant to feed us.

Here in the US we piss away more good crop land than you can shake a stick at.

We build homes on it and then haul the topsoil away.

[Tyler Durden]

26. I'm buying cheap land and greenhouses.

that way someone else can have my share

[hankthecrank]

28. All land needs to grow food nothing else

No flowers No plants for just for looks

No ground to grow sod for houses

no ground for cotton as thats not food

no ground for trees unless they are fruit trees

no ground for christmas trees

no ground for parking lots

no parks tear it all up and plant food

no soccer fields,golf courses, baseball fields,

We as the people get to pick what you grow on your cheap land and in your green houses is that what you are saying.

So getting your share of something is not good enough

[Tyler Durden]

33. That's not the argument I'm making.

But all ARABLE land should be farmed. Hydroponics should flank the walls of big buildings.

As to my share of food, I'm in startup to grow enough for the family and a stock for refugees. I figure we'll need it.

[Ikonoklast]

18. Do you know anything about farming, crop or land management?

You just cannot 'switch' from one type of crop to another, primarily based on soil types and local climate. Crop rotation is one thing, but many parts of this country are far better suited for one type over another.

If a farmer is able to switch crops for a higher net dollar yield per acre versus input costs, he will do so.

There is a reason, for example, winter wheat isn't a huge crop in Ohio, yet corn and soybeans are. Spring is cooler and wetter in Ohio, and winter wheat needs early warmth and less moisture before harvest. Same reason dryland farmers with no irrigation resource grow cereal grains and not corn.


There has been an extended cool and wet spring over much of the upper midwest, and many farmers are turning fields previously planted with corn, as it almost too late now to plant, to soybeans.

Result: Less corn, more soybeans. Price goes up on one, down on the other.

That is one reason speculators are driving up the price of corn. They keep a close eye on USDA planting reports, and the weather.

One disclaimer: I speculate on soybean futures.

[hankthecrank]

20. Yes I do and I travel the whole 48 states

So you agree that not all crop land can grow all crops
gee I said that.

Most people think that the US is the same as what they see right where they are.

Where most of the grains I see grown are dry land can't switch

They also get get there rain for the season at the same time as winter wheat needs it and when it gets dry there the crop is ready to harvest

So where does a trader come down on land use?

So do you support protecting farm land?

[Ikonoklast]

22. Sorry, Hank, replied to the wrong post

No, I agree with you, and as far as land use goes, I wince every time I see viable cropland get turned into a subdivision, or the elderly farmer sells out to land speculators as his kids don't want anything to do with farming, and the cropland gets pulled out of production.

One day soon that will end as the human population increases we will need every square inch of viable cropland to be productive. There is still fallow groud, some marginal, some viable that could be put back into production.

The greatest wealth any nation can have is the ability to feed its population.

Hungry people have revolutions.


I got interested in trading futures as a price hedge along with my boss (who farms soybeans) and as a prudent farmer, used futures contracts as a hedge against market price swings from planting to harvest. But now, for me, it's just speculation.




Meant to reply to Tyler Durden.

:hi:

[hankthecrank]

24. No harm your words sum up what I meant to say but didn't

General Mills and others make a lot bigger profit from the food than the small amount the farmer gets.

I looked at speculation but it was beyond what I could come to grips with!


:hi:

[Tyler Durden]

27. then you're part of the problem

not a condemnation, just a fact.

If any of us pay a tax of any kind, we fund the war.

And Yes, I know about farming, and my wife is a certified master gardener

[Ikonoklast]

19. God forbid that you would mention that distillers' grains left over

From the process of ethanol production, or soycake left over from pressing, is a high protein value resource for both animal feed and human consumption, and that with the recent increase in both corn and soyean production worldwide, there is more of it.

WAAAAY more.

[Ikonoklast]

29. Not true.

You could buy futures contracts on soybeans at the CBOT since 1956.

Other cereal grain commodities have been contracted there since 1849.

[no limit]

16. Signing on to corn based ethenol was the dumbest thing this country could have done

it needs to change and it needs to change quickly. Not only is driving the price of gas up, not only is producing ethenol a waste, but it is destroying the food supply in this world.

[rdenney]

21. Ethanol gets worse MPG then gasoline too. What a waste ! nt

[lonestarnot]

23. We're fucked dudie and no one's doing a goddamn thing about it.

Watching it all go by. Waiting and watching.

[TNOE]

30. GROW HEMP

I NEVER hear this solution - cars USED to run on it.

[guitar man]

31. no shit

You ought to try riding an air-cooled motorcycle with a carburetor. E10 seriously screws with it, especially in the hot weather, and it's getting damn hard to find gasoline that isn't E10 around here. :grr:

[Edweird]

32. No matter what the truth is about ethanol, diverting food or resources devoted to food to energy

in any way is incredibly stupid.