Amazing isn't it, that bush started a war with big fat lies yet there are no riots in the streets?

[Philosoraptor]

We Americans really are great sports aren't we?

Four thousand plus dead soldiers, 30,000 plus wounded soldiers, a million dead Iraqis, lies upon lies discovered and uncovered, trillions stolen right under our stunned eyes, did nine eleven scar our souls so badly that we just don't give a flying fuck anymore?

You'd think that after all these recent revelations about all the dead people and the lies and all the piracy and tyranny, SOMEBODY would get a little bit mad about it and raise holy righteous hell, but, we are apparently just a very, very forgiving society.

Apparently, we'll put up with and accept ANY FUCKING ATROCITY with a cheery smile and have a nice day attitude, so whatever they eventually do to us, we've got it coming.

[That Is Quite Enough]

1. People are so sedated and apathetic it's scary.

[Occulus]

45. You're FIRED. You missed a whole day because of some stupid protest.

And I've got ten people who want your job, and ten more for each of those, so good luck finding another job, keeping a roof over your head, paying off your credit card, paying your bills... why, one single protest, no matter how important, could end your career and put you on the street- especially if/when you get arrested. Then we have cause- not that we need cause in the first place.

Stupid liberals.

:sarcasm:, but not really, because that's actually how it is for a huge number of workers.

People aren't apathetic and sedated- they're scared out of their minds that they might misstep just once and lose it all.

[raccoon]

49. Excellent post. nt

[That Is Quite Enough]

61. That probably is one reason for a lot of people...

But I -along with at least some other DUers here, I'm guessing- know a lot people who generally respond to any mention of politics or news with "Who cares?" or something akin to that.

Not saying I disagree with you, but I figure that there's probably a whole collective of reasons for people to not be protesting or the ilk. That kind of contradicts my first post in this topic, but after reading yours it made me realize I came off sounding pretty narrow-minded on the issue.

[The_Casual_Observer]

2. Everybody is waiting for what Keith Olbermann is going to do next.

He'll fix it, otherwise it would mean another rally full of Mumia & Hemp people & ladies with long grey hair.

[amerikat]

3. No draft, no riots

It was the draft that made protests for the war in Vietnam.

[zonmoy]

4. Draft was the only reason that the people got courageous to do anything other

than to cower under their beds whenever leaders told them too.

[bdamomma]

46. big ole dick did his homework

they knew once the draft was introduced people were out in the streets. What will it take? We should be protesting the corporate media first, they are equally to blame.

[Rex]

5. Well I don't know if riots in the streets would accomplish anything.

Maybe damage local stores and property, not really making a statement there just vandalism that the press will run with. I don't think people know what to do anymore, no one stopped Bush from stealing the 2000 election and no one stopped him in 2004 from stealing the election in Ohio. The question is WHO will stop the BFEE? Doubtful it will ever happen.

[mrdmk]

6. There were major protest, they just were not televised! n/t

:tv:

What will be interesting is when Bush Jr. is out of office, if there will be any follow-up on the crimes he committed.

People do learn from history, especially from Bush Sr. Bush Sr. pardon people who were not charge with a crime. Lets just watch to see if Bush Jr. tries the same thing!

[Gabi Hayes]

73. uhhhh, he's already started

[LordJFT]

Many of us did march in the streets, back when this war started

[Rex]

10. Yes and the mainstream media did everything in its power to shutdown

war protests, even changed the meaning of the protesters from PRO-PEACE to ANTI-WAR. Anything to make a buck.

[Philosoraptor]

17. cheney laughed at the protesters, he laughs at us all, cause we're chumps.

[LordJFT]

7. Many of us did march in the streets, back when this war started

[Skittles]

8. people care more about garbage like American Idol

than what is happening in their own country

[Philosoraptor]

11. The last 10 years has been like the Twilight Zone

And I'm stuck in some hell dimension on an endless loop.

[StarryNite]

31. That's exactly how I have been feeling.

It's never ending.

[Skittles]

36. aw f***ing TELL ME about it

I see my country disappearing before my eyes

[formercia]

54. Like the movie Groundhog Day

except the Groundhog in our reality is a war mongering psychopath who has expanded the concept of the frat house prank to a global scale.

[jhrobbins]

44. Boy are your values misplaced-can't you see the weighty import of

David vs David over the tiresome talk about the war, the economy, the shredding of the Constitution, etc, etc, etc. You need to reevaluate what's important here.

:sarcasm:

[Captain Angry]

9. It has not affected them personally yet.

The blame has been well shifted.

It's not our policies. It's Iraq, Al-Qaeda, bad apples at Enron, etc.

We're spread so far apart in this country, who would you protest to about the war, or food, or fuel? The White House won't listen, and you can't even afford to go there.

Protest in your town? Who would notice? Who would care? What would possibly change?

[Philosoraptor]

14. Did ya hear? bush started an unnecessary war, what's on t.v. tonight?

[gateley]

12. No but people sure rallied to get a gay marriage ban on the ballot in

California. Damn it, we Americans know what's REALLY important! :grr:

[sandnsea]

13. Well, "everybody makes mistakes when they are president"

"You know, everybody makes mistakes when they are president," Clinton said. "I mean, you can't make as many calls as you have to make without messing up once in awhile. The thing we ought to be focused on is what is the right thing to do now. That's what I think."

And that is why nothing will ever be done about Iraq.

Link for the quote, not the web site.
http://conspiracycorner.yuku.com/topic/483/t/Clinton-Defends-Bush-Some-Have-a-Theory.html

[Fox Mulder]

15. I marched when the war started.

[Philosoraptor]

16. There's marching, and there's riots.

I've seen a few riots, riots happen when people just don't give a damn anymore.

[gateley]

20. I think riots happen when we feel totally powerless and frustrated. Impotent.

It's a step toward feeling as though we're taking control.

[bdamomma]

50. we should take note from those countries when the people

have nothing left to loose, such as Haiti, Ukraine, and the list goes on and on, they are out on the streets.

[pitohui]

76. i haven't noticed where haiti, ukraine, etc. are such wonderful places to live

you would need to offer evidence that rioting improves someone's life, offering up haiti as an example merely convinces me that you forget your sarcasm tag

going out on the street and rioting just makes things worse for the people down on the ground and it puts the leaders in the right, because they are the ones being mature and in control, while you are acting like a violent baby kicking out at whatever is around you

[cherokeeprogressive]

27. Hell Yeah! Let's go! You burn my house, I'll burn yours, and we'll BOTH burn the 7-11!

Torch all the SUV's! Blow up all the police stations! Loot the Targets and Wal-Marts! Fuck the MAN!

That'll show 'em!

[petgoat]

34. I once drove through a wide-spot-in-the-road hamlet in the Carolinas,

maybe 30 houses and a mom and pop store, and saw three houses
freshly burned. Wondered if there was just a lot of accident-prone
people or if there might be a story behind that.

[givemebackmycountry]

18. Well I'm pretty freaking upset...

I got into a cab last week and the clown cab driver had RUSH on his radio - before I even told him where I was going I said to him, "turn that FAT oxycontin eating NAZI off...please" and I got a look. My response was simply "you want a tip from a liberal or you want to be alone with a lying scumbag on your radio dial?"

That worked.

I am mad.
I ready to start dragging people with Bush Cheney bumper-stickers out of their cars at red lights and beating the shit out of them.
That's how mad I am.
However, strangely enough, there are not many of those people left, even down here in Florida, my new home.

Here's why your post makes sense.

Stop 20 people in any mall in the "greatest country in the world" and 15 of them couldn't find Iowa on a map much less Iraq and 8 of them wouldn't even know that we have troops in Afghanistan and that "new democracy" Iraq.

It's not that we accept ANY FUCKING ATROCITY...it's that we are one EXTRA stupid country and we're clueless as to what is going on around us.
Darfur?
What's that?

Get my drift?

And that saddens me.

We are one extra stupid country.

[Philosoraptor]

19. You're right, only a tiny percent are even aware of what's going on.

We're mutants in among the vast herds of stupid roaming the prairies and plains.

[gateley]

22. Some of the foreign blogs I read -- or comments

to articles in foreign newspapers -- makes it clear that people in the rest of the world are more aware of what's going on in our country than most Americans. Not to mention what's going on around the world.

I LOVE what you said to the cab driver - good for you!!

[raccoon]

52. Good for you!

"I got into a cab last week and the clown cab driver had RUSH on his radio - before I even told him where I was going I said to him, "turn that FAT oxycontin eating NAZI off...please" and I got a look. My response was simply "you want a tip from a liberal or you want to be alone with a lying scumbag on your radio dial?" "

:toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug: :toast: :hug:

[LibDemAlways]

71. Completely agree. The US is, by and large, a

nation of dumbshits. Those who bothered to vote in 2000 and 2004 made it close enough for a moron puppet of the neocon fringe to steal, twice. Why? Because they voted in 2000 based on the completely fraudulant notion that Bush is a folksy guy from Texas they would enjoy having a beer with. They didn't know in 2000 what he stood for, and they weren't paying enough attention to know in 2004 what he stood for. All they knew the second time around was they were scared shitless of terrorists and Bush was the guy they thought was protecting them.

The average asshole on the street could tell you with certainty who won American Idol or how the hometown team is faring in league standings. That same person could not tell you who the Vice President is and more than likely couldn't name a single Supreme Court Justice. I'd be willing to bet most couldn't even name the governor of their own state. It's just pathetic.

A few years ago when Tom Daschle was still majority leader, CSPAN cameras followed him around one August on a driving tour of South Dakota. He'd just pull up at a diner or post office and chat it up with whoever happened to be around. He walked into one restaurant and only a few people recognized him. He introduced himself to the diners and was mostly met with blank stares. With one notable exception. A family from France had stopped in the restaurant on their way to Mt. Rushmore. The husband recognized Daschle immediately, called him over, and proudly introduced him to his family. "This is Tom Daschle. He's Majority Leader in the United States Senate." Daschle shook hands all around and posed with the foreign visitors. It was a very revealing moment.

[tom_paine]

21. Not amazing at all. Study history and the behavior of subject populaces.

Imperial Amerikans are no different from the other species of the enslaved. Oh sure, the most modern techniques of propaganda and Inverted Totalitarianism have been used against us, and due to cheap energy and the 224 years of freedom that came before the Old Republic ended in 2000, we have the nicest, cleanest cages of any slaves in all of human history.

And the entertainments, available 24/7 and tailor-made to each of us! The envy of any ancient subject of the Caesars!

Not only are you correct on all counts, but I strongly suggest we have not even seen one-tenth of the depths ofthe atrocities our Good Germans will countenance. Not even close.

I maintain that Inverted Totalitarianism is something of a hothouse flower. It can only exist during an age of incredible creature comforts, massive entertainment, media saturation that makes False Reality that comes through the TV one-thousand times more powerful than any actual reality.

Oh, and the massive quantities of cheap energy that makes all of it possible. And even after seven years of Bushie looting, we are still incomparably wealthy in food, medicine, and technology compared to any nation that has come before.

Inverted Totalitarianism cannot exist, I believe, without these things, and when the socio-economic belt begins to REALLY tighten (not these pale foreshadowings of what is to come), the more familiar forms of Classic Totalitarianism will begin to reassert themselves, and pretty quickly, given the menatlity of we Imperial Subjects of Amerika, which was the subject of your OP.

What can I say to that OP but bravo and so true. I wish it wasn't, but the evidence is as overwheming as the evidence of Multiple Bushie Inner Circle Felonies.

[Philosoraptor]

23. if they weren't so clever at hiding their crimes they'd have been pilloried at least.

[Philosoraptor]

24. A lion in a zoo isn't really a lion.

And we naked apes are real happy with our cushy digs, you can't even see the iron bars.

[arendt]

55. I, and Jacques Ellul, are with you on this being a hothouse, and soon to be just an old-fashioned...

police state:

For propaganda to succeed, a society must first have two complementary qualities: it must be both an individualist and a mass society...The individual is placed in a minority position and burdened at the same time with a total, crushing responsibility. Such conditions make an individualist society fertile ground for modern propaganda...The individual left to himself is defenseless...as a member of a small group he had been failry well protected from collective influences...

Objective Conditions of Total Propaganda

The Need of an Average Standard of Living

Just as there are socieities not susceptible to propaganda, there are individuals not susceptible to it...for example, it takes an individual to read the newspaper and buy a radio or TV set-and individual with a certain standard of living. Modern integration propaganda cannot affect individuals who live on the fringes of our civilization or who have too low a living stangdard. In capitalist countries, the very poor, who have no radio or TV and rarely go to the movies, cannot be reached by propaganda. Communist countries meet this problem with communioty receicveers and free movies. Thus even the poorest can be reached by propaganda.

But other obstacles intervene. The really poor cannot be subjected to integration propaganda because the immediate concerns of daily life abosrb all their capaciites and efforts...More advanced propaganda can influence only a man who is not completely haunted by povery, amman who can view things from a certain distnace and be reasonably uncomcerned about his daily bread.

-Jacques Ellul, "Propaganda" (1965)

Of course, forty years later, TV and radio are so cheap that we have arrived at Communist-style "free movies".

----------

The constant underestimation by liberals of the actual power of propaganda is how we have been enslaved. I personally think that "Mumia and the Hemp People" are part of a false flag operation to discredit and distract honest folk from the liberal cause. I mean, please, Mumia has been a cause for thirty years - this is the cheapest way to waste a huge amount of political energy that I have ever seen.

arendt

[magellan]

25. Instead, THIS is the kind of garbage that gets people into a lather

...to the extent it becomes Snopes-worthy:

U.S Government to Release New Dollar Coins

You guessed it
'IN GOD WE TRUST'
IS GONE!!!
If ever there was a reason to boycott something, THIS IS IT!!!!

DO NOT ACCEPT THE NEW DOLLAR COINS AS CHANGE

Together we can force them out of circulation.

Please send to all on your mail list !!!

I received this tonight. The woman who sent it to me realized her mistake after and apologized to everyone on the mailing list for sending out false alarms. I'm considering my reply. It will include the words 'shallow' and 'out of touch with reality'.

[trusty elf]

30. The guvmint done been tooked over by them there sekyalur humonists.

:crazy:




edited for spelling and grammar

[ben_meyers]

26. Amazing isn't it, that JFK/LBJ started a war with big fat lies, and there were riots in the streets.

Because my generation had the specter of involuntary servitude hanging over our heads. The current generation has nothing invested, nothing to get hung about.

[aquart]

28. Volunteer army. It's someone else butt getting blown up.

Which is why I'm against a volunteer army and always have been.

[petgoat]

35. The Nat'l Guardsmen volunteered for flood duty, not invasion. nt

[hack89]

41. I don't think so.

the National Guard has been a component of the US Army for a long time. It has a long history of fighting in America's war so it should not have been a big surprise. Certainly not for anyone who has joined since 911.

[Thothmes]

43. 29th Infantry division (VA National Guard)

Went ashore on D-Day at Omaha Beach with the 1st Infantry Division. 87th Infantry Division (ND National Guard) relieved the first Marine Division on Guadalcanal. A lot of guardsman from the 87th volunteered for duty in Burma with Merrill. Individual Guard units (less than Division size) served in Korea, Viet Nam and Gulf One.

[lonestarnot]

29. hmmmmmf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rQmXAs5lN0

[EFerrari]

32. In all those Congressional hearings about torture, I've never heard anyone ask

if Bush knew Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11, what the fuck was he doing torturing Iraqi civilians?

That was BEFORE Fallujah. That was BEFORE the four mercs were killed. (Those mercs were killed A YEAR after Iraqi families knew their people were being tortured at Abu Graib.)

We know it was a policy, not an accident. So, what the fuck was Bush doing torturing civilians who had nothing to do with 9/11 and before the insurgency took off?

[Raster]

33. Practicing. Just tryin' to get it right.

[petgoat]

37. If you're trying to make a 20-year war, you got to stir up the hornets a bit. nt

[ngant17]

38. the Iraq war is Vietnam in slow-motion

the daily body counts are about 1/5th the rate that was occuring in SE Asia, i.e. 55,000 KIAs in Vietnam over an 11-year period, that's averaging 5 KIAs/day. The killing is just not happening fast enough to shock us out of our involvement in Iraq. Plus the fact that there is only a voluntary army, and only the poor youth are forced by the souring economy to join the US military.

Vietnam was started over a fabrication, a lie (Gulf of Tonkin incident). But that fact didn't really come out until later. And the protests were not about this lie as much as it was about the fact that the war was so horrible and unnessary and so pointless.

Over time, the Iraq war can not be sustainable even at the low rate of deaths it is generating. It is a money hole, an infinite drain on our economy.

The Iraqi resistance which are fighting against enormous odds, it is largely a waiting game for them. We can not occupy Iraq indefinitely. As soon as we leave, there will be a fairly large vaccuum that will be filled by our adversaries.

I don't see the price of oil getting any cheaper soon. A lot of us are just worried about how we will be able to get to work and pay for a tank of gasoline each week.

[lala_rawraw]

39. i keep thinking...

is there some sedative in the water to explain this lethargy and apathy? no clue why we are a nation asleep.

[tom_paine]

60. "Fluoridation, Madrake, is the most mostrously conceived Communist Plot of all time.

"It saps and impurifies our precious bodily fluids."

=======================================================

I almost never get a chance to respond to you directly, so I would like to thank you from the botom of my heart for all you do. You are a true American Patriot! :patriot:

Thank you.

:hug:

[lala_rawraw]

70. and you mr. paine, are my hero:)

[Gabi Hayes]

74. I'm among the fortunate few.....

got to talk to her on the radio once

and that's my favorite soliloquy in all media, along with one of the best stills/photos

'women sense my power, mandrake. they seek my essence'
something like that

George C. Scott was furious with Kubrick for using the takes that he thought looked like scenery chewing. I think it was because he saw what Sterling Hayden did with his role

that picture you post NEEDS to be photoshopped with this guy:

[Kitty Herder]

40. We've seen what atrocities our government is capable of.

In Iraq, in Vietnam, in Nicaragua, etc, etc. And we've seen what they can do at home, like at Kent state.

We've seen the viciousness of modern crowd control with rubber bullets aimed at the head, and tazers that can and do kill. We've seen the impunity with which cops can injure and kill people.

We know that our government locks people away without charging them and tortures them. Even American citizens like Jose Padilla whose mind was destroyed and was in the end convicted on trumped up charges. We know there are prison camps, supposedly for illegal immigrants, but they could easily hold unruly citizens in a pinch.

So we are afraid, very afraid. We will have to reach a point where we are so outraged that the anger trumps our fear. We will have to want freedom and justice so badly that we are willing to die for it before any meaningful mass protests of the kind that those in power can't ignore will ever take place.

As progressives, I think most of us are willing to engage in peaceful, lawful protests, but few are willing to actually engage in non-violent civil disobedience. The fear is too great. However, there will come a tipping point, if things don't change, and mass numbers of people will put their freedom or even their lives on the line

[JI7]

42. people are more angry about the cost of gas

[Blue_Tires]

78. +1

that always seems to be the one issue that gets americans of all political stripes pissed off...

[AngryOldDem]

47. It's the "I got mine..."

..."fuck everyone else" attitude.

It's disgusting how self-centered and downright selfish we have become as a society.

[raccoon]

48. Most people, as long as it's not their loved ones in Iraq, or themselves,

don't get worked up about it.

Until it bites them in the ass, most people just go on about their merry way.

By the time it does bite them in the ass, it could be too late, the way it was for the citizens in Nazi Germany.

[bdamomma]

53. until it bites everyone on the a$$, people will hopefully then act.

but someone did mention to me once that we are gutless, sorry to say I was very reluctant to agree, hopefully we can change that.

[Seabiscuit]

51. Simple. There aren't any Draft Boards any more.

The only threat the administration has against someone who doesn't want to die in an illegal, immoral war is the threat of rendition and torture, and probably over half of the country isn't even aware that any of that goes on.

[Freddie Stubbs]

56. No riots in the UK either

Perhaps the US and UK are more civilized than the rest of the world. We have the patience to wait for elections.

[raccoon]

64. Disagree on both counts. And look how much good waiting for elections did in 2000

and 2004.

[Runcible Spoon]

68. ...................

:rofl: :crazy: :wow: :spray:

do you REALLY believe that crap, or is this just really subtle farce? Inquiring minds...

[bdamomma]

77. elections are not a cure all.

and even listening to our elected officials they still think elections are a cure all, and a new administration is the answer. Poor concept.

[NNN0LHI]

57. Once I seen people just demonstrating in the streets and the National Guard was shooting them dead

After seeing reports of how they have tortured and murdered Iraqi people as per their great leader Bush's orders I don't trust them now.

Shouldn't be that way but it is.

Don

[KG]

58. there aren't many fairey tales americans won't talk themselves into believing

this invasion and occupation and the lies told about it are just the lastest myths americans have taken to heart.

[harun]

59. As far as the media is concerned the only conflict out there is Hillary vs. Obama (n/t)

[Hydra]

62. *Chuckle*

I'm not as forgiving as the people who posted earlier- I think the problem is much deeper than apathy or fear.

Consider the myth that Bushco is "incompetent"- the truth is that their actions are deliberate. It's easier for most of us to accept the lie, though.

In the same way, I do believe most people are accepting a lie about the people in America- that they are apathetic, uncaring or uninformed...I assert that they secretly APPROVE of America being above the laws of the world, torturing and killing the "infidels" who do not believe in our form of (non)democracy.

Good Germans indeed.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. Here's the magic, do you know anybody PERSONALLY who has been

shipped back to the front over and over again?

If you do, you are in a SMALL percentage of the population

The I got mine attitude is very pervasive

They have not enacted the draft to keep that percentage LOW

Never mind that any neutral observer will tell you the US Military NEEDS a draft to keep this OpTempo and chiefly sanity for the troops and families

But a draft would make the war matter to more folks, in a personal, visceral way.

[Hydra]

65. No draft because they would prefer to have Mercs

Mercs don't argue with orders to kill civs- they just say "How many and how much per head?"

[Thothmes]

69. The one benefit of using mercs

is that no one cares if they get killed or wounded. The only reason that the French were able to prosecute the war in Indo China in the late 40s and early fifty's is they used the Foreign Legion and African colonial troops almost exclusively. The folks in France could care less what the Legion or African colonial losses were.

[Hydra]

72. There are lots of benefits

They cost a lot, though.

Why should that bother us, though? The Fed keeps printing money at an astounding rate. Soon enough that $400,000 per year will seem like $400.

[windoe]

66. As long as people are comfortable

not seeing the deaths, hearing the screams
not smelling the blood
not recognizing names

TeeVee has created virtual reality
virtual death, virtual horror, virtual outrage
a blanket of comfort
so voyeurs do not have to participate

one fine morning
illusions will fall away
how much destruction
will have occurred by then?

as long as we are comfortable

[wiggs]

67. Europeans have no problem getting a million people on the streets for issues

far less important. Seems we need someone to rally around...to inspire....to demand participation from us. We haven't had someone like that in a while...they either don't have the inspirational charisma or are too easily swiftboated.

[pitohui]

75. what good does rioting do? it wastes your time and annoys the pig

i haven't ever noticed where burning your own stuff and getting your own ass put in jail and your own head bashed in does anything useful

[spanone]

79. it's pretty astounding what you can get away with....the criminality is mind-boggling