Q on Yahoo Answers: ''What rate of return for a capitalist is not considered greedy?'' & my answer

[yurbud]

This is a question we need a good answer to if we want to win over business types to the progressive side of the force.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080524111914AA8e925&r=w&pa=FZptHWf.BGRX3OFPgDVTVYTmLDESwlPZhqUjYJxBPhOZ..RsKA--&paid=answered#TIVvGkC7N3NrrNX89lFM

I would not begrudge someone any rate of return so long as they didn't screw their workers, the environment, people in other countries, or bribe politicians to rig the system to give them monopoly power to do so as oil companies and media companies have done.

In the case of media companies, we give them public airwaves essentially for free instead of charging market value, and allow them to combine to the point that they can choke out opinions they don't like.

We give an even bigger gift to oil companies: we use our diplomatic, intelligence, and military to give them control of Middle Eastern and other oil reserves, and overthrow any governments that threaten that control. In exchange, they don't try to increase production or cut us a break on the price, or even offer to repay the trillion dollar plus cost of the war even though they will reap tens of trillions in profit from it.

In some cases, like pharmaceuticals, we give the companies taxpayer money for research, and they thank us by charging us MORE than anyone else in the world, and fighting to keep those drugs whose development we funded from going generic.

Very often these same companies that we do so many favors for with our taxpayer dollars bend over backwards to get out of paying taxes themselves, so that they end up paying a lower percentage of their income in taxes than you and I.

Even if they got no direct support from the government, they used our roads, our police and fire departments, workers educated in our public schools, and other infrastructure to accumulate their wealth, so they should be grateful to only have to pay a percentage of their PROFITS instead of their INCOME like the rest of us do.

If somebody has a new product or idea that people want, I wish them all the profit in the world.

A better question to ask is what return should Americans be getting on our tax dollars? Should we get public schools with classes small enough for students to actually learn? Should we get meat inspectors who are more concerned about our safety than incurring the wrath of his boss who came from and plans to go back to the meat industry? Should we get a foreign policy designed to make us safer instead of more enemies for America and more profits for a handful of corporations?

If America was a business, and you were a stockholder or customer, what would you expect to get out of it?

[scarletwoman]

1. Rec'd! That is an excellent piece! Very well done -- good for you!

:applause:

sw

[yurbud]

3. your praise inspired me to post this to my blog LINK:

http://professorsmartass.blogspot.com/2008/05/how-little-profit-for-capitalist-to-not.html

And the newsranking sites:

http://buzzflash.net/story.php?id=53020

http://digg.com/political_opinion/How_little_profit_for_a_capitalist_to_not_be_greedy

http://reddit.com/info/6knoz/comments/

http://politics.propeller.com/story/2008/05/24/how-little-profit-for-a-capitalist-to-not-be-greedy-and-a-progressive-answer/#comments

[scarletwoman]

4. Good! People badly need to start thinking about their relationship to government & capital

in new and more creative ways. We need to wake people up out the trance of "There is no other way".

I found your thinking original and very useful, we need more of its like.

sw

[greenvpi]

2. As a stockholder...

I expect dividends. Why are we not being paid when so many companies in this country are making so much money?

[conspirator]

5. Because the stock exchange is just like gambling. "THE HOUSE" keeps most of the money n/t

[yurbud]

6. isn't it because one companies board is another's execs?

It's all so incestuous that what should be an accountability mechanism essentially rubber stamps legalized embezzlement for CEOs and top execs who rake in millions even when the company is tanking and shareholders aren't getting dividends.

[Selatius]

8. Because you are a nobody compared to the BIG shareholders.

Unless you own a significant portion of shares in a company, you are considered nothing to the people who do own major portions of these Fortune 500 giants. If you owned enough shares to get yourself a seat on the Board of Directors, every time a dividend is declared, you go home rich.

It's a country club, and you're not in it. To them, you're just a peasant trying to be an owner, but at the end of the day, you're just a peasant in their eyes.

[warren pease]

12. As a stockholder...

... you should be used to your quarterly screwing. The only obligation a for-profit, publicly held corporation has under US case law and SEC regulations is increasing shareholder equity. That's it.

Nothing about paying dividends. As long as the CEO and CFO can't be shown to have acted in the worst interests of shareholders -- which of course they do all the time, but the SEC has better things to worry about than actually enforcing its own regulations -- they're home free.

As long as they haven't managed to crash the stock -- meaning that it's survived their regularly scheduled embezzlement exercises and still remained flat or even trended slightly upward -- they've satisfied their fiduciary responsibilities and they don't owe you or anybody else a dime.

Internally, nobody get too excited if they skim a few mil from time to time. Everybody's cool as long as the word never gets beyond the boardroom and that there's a little taste of the loot distributed to everybody on mahogany row.

We used to say that when an engineer moved to product marketing, the first thing they had to do was lock their ethics in an impenetrable vault. This wasn't actually a joke; the fact that it now applies to virtually anyone above supervisor in the corporate food chain is disturbing indeed.

But it's the inevitable outcome of unrestrained US-style capitalism, where there's no such thing as excessive and there's never any such thing as enough.


wp

[barbtries]

7. great response - what have you heard back?

[yurbud]

14. on yahoo answers, OP picks best answer but hasn't yet.

[onethatcares]

9. thank you very much for the well thought out post

I don't have the knack to express myself as well. Thanx again.

[nichomachus]

10. Easy answer -- double the rate of inflation

Then, you'll see the capitalists scrambling to get the rate reported correctly instead of the ludicrous 2%.

Or -- double the amount of interest paid on consumer bank savings accounts.

[ljm2002]

11. Your answer is terrific!

Thanks for putting it out there.

[fed_up_mother]

13. Excellent response. Happy to k&r

[FredStembottom]

15. Holy Cow, yurbud! This is first-rate!

I'm sorry I didn't see this right away yesterday.

I think I just may memorize it for talking to Ditto-heads at work.

Excellent and useful summation for us Regulated Capitalists!

:toast:

[yurbud]

16. that is the best praise--second best would be voting this up on Digg, Buzzflash, etc. LINKS:

http://buzzflash.net/story.php?id=53020

http://digg.com/political_opinion/How_little_profit_for_a_capitalist_to_not_be_greedy

http://reddit.com/info/6knoz/comments

http://politics.propeller.com/story/2008/05/24/how-little-profit-for-a-capitalist-to-not-be-greedy-and-a-progressive-answer/#comments

[FredStembottom]

18. Is that like "Recommend" here at DU?

... hey I'm old. I don't know what you kids do with yer hula-hoops and roller skates. :shrug:

[lonestarnot]

17. Most very excellent!

K & R :applause:

[ColbertWatcher]

19. Corporations are using alternative means...

...these days to get their messages out.

They edit their Wikip*dia pages, they lobby for their positions on message boards (such as DU), they Digg favorable stories and now it seems they manipulate Yahoo answers to make themselves look good.

Good on you for countering them and for posting this!

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

20. Monsanto is more than greedy - they want to control the world

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/05/monsanto200805

They are trying to tie up all of agriculture. The G.M. seeds they develop are slowly becoming the only ones available. Farmers aren't allowed to re-use seeds from year to year unless they pay Monsanto because they are patented. And Monsanto is using extreme bullying tactics on farmers all across the United States. Hopefully, farmers will get wise to this and not use any Monsanto seeds in the future, while alternative, non-patented seeds are still available. Monsanto, of course, would eventually like to have only their seeds available to farmers so that they can completely tie up the production of food.

"...Monsanto’s Harvest of Fear

Monsanto already dominates America’s food chain with its genetically modified seeds. Now it has targeted milk production. Just as frightening as the corporation’s tactics–ruthless legal battles against small farmers–is its decades-long history of toxic contamination.

(...)

Scenes like this are playing out in many parts of rural America these days as Monsanto goes after farmers, farmers’ co-ops, seed dealers—anyone it suspects may have infringed its patents of genetically modified seeds. As interviews and reams of court documents reveal, Monsanto relies on a shadowy army of private investigators and agents in the American heartland to strike fear into farm country. They fan out into fields and farm towns, where they secretly videotape and photograph farmers, store owners, and co-ops; infiltrate community meetings; and gather information from informants about farming activities. Farmers say that some Monsanto agents pretend to be surveyors. Others confront farmers on their land and try to pressure them to sign papers giving Monsanto access to their private records. Farmers call them the “seed police” and use words such as “Gestapo” and “Mafia” to describe their tactics. ..."