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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:30 AM
Original message
It is not the oil companies
Ours is a Capitalistic system where the only responsibility of top management is to maximize the return for shareholders - while following the laws of anti trust, or anti pollution, etc.

And this is what they are doing.

We, on the other hand, should not give them any tax incentives, we don't have to drive the biggest behemoths on the road. Our country consumes a lot more oil per person than any other country in the road. So each family of four has five vehicles, two, at least, are monstrosity of SUV. We live farther and farther away from jobs, or places of entertainment and shopping. We "zone" for market and for housing so that even getting a bottle of milk we have to jump into the car and drive. And, of course, all the quick drives into Starbucks in the weekend morning..

And we chauffer our kids to many activities...

And then there are the monstrosity of 4,000 and 5,000 sq. ft houses that require all that energy for heating and cooling.

Hey, if we are so wasteful in our consuming habits, perhaps $6.00 a gallon is what we need.

And isn't it ironic that our outsourcing of all the jobs helped expand the middle class in India and in China so that their consumption of oil, as well as building material, is partially the reason for the price increase?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. Can't it be both? Our whole system is built on individuality and consumption.
Edited on Fri May-23-08 01:39 AM by Selatius
One of the biggest reasons why so many people live in suburban sub-divisions is precisely because they were spoonfed the notion that you could live far away from work and own your own yard and your own car. Well, that kind of urban planning leads to this:



A monument to the car and to oil. An absolute nightmare.

However, if you own a major portion of companies like Exxon-Mobil or auto companies, you're making a killing off the dividends, at the expense of quality of life for everybody else.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. You really cannot blame the shareholders
(of which I am not). They provide consumers what they want, like tobacco, and liquor, and even Pet Rock.

They are not the one ruining the quality of life for everyone else. I think that all the ones driving Hummers around are quite happy with their quality of life.

But when local governments get into play, this is a different game altogether. The story of how the cars and oil companies got Los Angeles of the late 40s or early 50s to tear down the lines of public transportation are legendary. And they could not have done it on their own. Some government officials had to be "convinced" that this would be good for the city.

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. I generally blame the bigger shareholders, typically on the board of directors.
Edited on Fri May-23-08 03:38 AM by Selatius
They benefit most from the status quo. Millions of Americans own stock in companies that damage the public good, yet an exclusive few could ever claim they own more than 1 percent of any major Fortune 500 corporation. It's that exclusive few who ultimately wield the most power, the ones who call the shots. Joe Sixpack who owns a few dozen shares of Exxon-Mobil--let's face it--is still a nobody in terms of who calls the shots at Exxon.

You bring up the proverbial chicken or egg paradox. In this case, mass transit existed prior to the 1950s/1960s in the US. Referencing old archive photographs of familiar towns you have lived in, at least the bigger ones, and you may find transit buses or trolleys and trams, with railroad lines embedded in the pavement. The city I live in used to have such systems, until they were ripped out. Many of these trolley companies were bought out by companies like GM, specifically so that they could be destroyed.

Through the use of propaganda--they like to call it advertising--they convinced Americans to buy more cars and live further away from work. Well, that's led to gridlock and a whole host of other problems.
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Locrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. wtf?
Holy f*ck!! Were is THAT? What a nightmare....




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khashka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. True.
But other things play into it too. The weak value of the dollar, dwindling oil reserves combined with increased consumption, etc. My dad works for an oil company and it's becoming a loser's game - they're working on promoting and getting into alternate energy sources.

Khash.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. Our 'Top Managenent' (gov't) has NOT maximized our shares.....
We are in the top 2%...

We expect that our 'shares' will make our roads better, update our energy systems, educate our future leaders, keep the most unfortunate among us clothed, fed, educated and on the road to productivity. We also expect that our water and air are kept clean, our wildlife is safe from harm, and our natural resources are kept viable for future generations.

INSTEAD, over 50% of OUR tax $$$$ go to DEFENSE.

How tiny and scared are we to allow this?

My family has been here since the Revolutionary War.... I an ashamed to say I am ashamed of what we have become.....Damn.



PS - Your straw-man works w/ many networks and radio shows.
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Except that we want it all, but are unwilling to pay for it
Roads, and eduction, and public transportation have to be supported by our taxes. And in most cases, people vote down a ballot measure, or their elected officials who vote for tax increase.

In many places, adding more lanes to expressways gets priority over adding to public transportation.

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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. The 'top management' $$$ (ie - PR campaigns)
Tell us what we 'want'. We are told through sitcoms, and amazingly varied ads what WE WANT, What we NEED..... what we cannot be successful without.


We are living in the Matrix..... which pill do YOU want to take?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. What makes you believe antitrust laws are being adhered to
and that price fixing is not occurring on a grand scale? :shrug:
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I don't know. But at least this is something that we can look into
A "simple" profit, even what we call a "windfall" profit is part of our system.
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. I just predicted your answer.... straw-man
Ignore the real question..................
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alittlelark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. That question will likely not be answered.....
But if it attempts an answer a straw-man will sit in the center.
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
12. Hey you know what
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 03:50 AM
Response to Original message
13. I must reply, I can't help myself. That old republican,
and Oxycotin Rush, talking point flying around in neocon land demands to be shot out of the sky like all lies buzzing in the empty heads of the wealthy elite.

"Ours is a Capitalistic system where the only responsibility of top management is to maximize the return for shareholders - while following the laws of anti trust, or anti pollution, etc."

There is capitalism and then there is capitalism, the one we got is welfare for the uber wealthy and tax the hell out of the middle class and poor. It involves stealing from the poor and middle class and giving to the rich. It gives our public assets to the idle rich in the form of sell offs of public property at bargain basement prices and no-bid contracts and allows the monolithic monopolies to make billions off the infrastructure built by our tax dollars. It involves giving tax breaks to oil corporations that are making record profits by manipulating the supply of oil much like ENRON did. While I pay a good 23% in taxes, the uber wealth pay 13% and this is capitalism? How?

The bushes (along with idiots like Raygun and Nixon) have decided to ignore the anti-trust laws and common sense regulations on the books and the Dancing Supremes say monopolies are people too in all their 18th century Catholic decisions.

You complain about the SUVs but don't mention that the bushes gave all those gas guzzling drivers tax breaks for driving giant cars. You stand back and complain about conspicuous consumption when our pResident told us all to go shopping in support of our country in a time of war.

Our country is what it is because rich, fat, old men decided greed is good but only for the uber wealthy. The rich elite used all the manipulative tools of advertisement and media control to convince We the People to allow the wealthy to rule us. Eventually the huge middle class built in the 40s, 50s, 60s would run out of money and leave the bare bones behind.

What you are witnessing is hyperinflation and stagflation caused by a bubble in oil and the slow collapse of the American middle class.

Welcome to the neocon world where money makes right and We the People are simply a tool of regional monopolies.
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JANdad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Bravo!
Thank you
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 04:28 AM
Response to Original message
15. No!
Ours is a Capitalistic system where the only responsibility of top management is to maximize the return for shareholders - while following the laws of anti trust, or anti pollution, etc.
No, that's not what they're doing!

The oil corporations are pulling an Enron on the entire country.

They've ignored the CFTC and ICE.

Stop enabling unregulated corrupt corporatism!
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:42 AM
Response to Original message
16. hmmm...
The July contract for light, sweet crude on the New York Mercantile Exchange rose to a record $135.09 a barrel in electronic trade on Thursday, but then fell back sharply to settle at $130.81 in the later floor session as the dollar strengthened and gave some investors reason to sell oil futures to lock in profits.

from today's SMW.
dp
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JCMach1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 06:48 AM
Response to Original message
17. Companies constantly play games to manipulate supply and price
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
18. "Ours is a Capitalistic system...". Who dictated that? Our is a DEMOCRATIC system
based on the SOVEREIGNTY OF THE PEOPLE, who have sole sovereign control over who does business here and how--in theory anyway. But you have bought into the corporate propaganda that THEY rule, not us.

WE grant charters to corporations, through the states. Without those charters, they cannot do business. They cannot even exist, and they have no RIGHT to exist. WE give our PERMISSION for them to exist, and to conduct business, in the public interest. We regulate them. We tax them. But we could just as well nationalize our resources, and create national businesses, directly run by OUR government--as, for instance, the Norwegians do with their oil business (run by a national company, Statoil). We could have a largely socialist economy, with severe limitations on wealth, as in Sweden. There is nothing about "rule of, by and for the people" that requires capitalism or capitalist domination of the economy. There is nothing sacred about capitalism. But corporations--all of them (resource exploiters, banks, investment groups, outsourcers of jobs and manufacturing, etc.)--would like you to believe that "ours in a capitalistic system," not a democracy; that ours is a system of rule by the rich elite who have "capital"; that their "capital" is sacred, and that they have a "right" to do whatever they like with it.

The "sovereignty of the people" derives from an ancient concept of the king as the owner of all the land, but, more than this, of having a sacred relationship with the land that makes the land fertile and produces prosperity for the people who live there. The king thereby exercised the right to regulate the production of goods and services and all economic transactions--for the benefit of the people (in theory). Democracy SPECIFICALLY adapted that concept but replaced the king with the PEOPLE. The People are the king. We collectively own the land and and all of its resources, and hold the right to regulate all economic transactions--for the benefit of the people. We exercise our SOVEREIGNTY through voting, and the political activity related to voting. And how we organize our economic activity is entirely up to us--to we, the People--in our collective wisdom.

It is very important to get this concept straight, in discussions of capitalism. Capitalism is a CHOICE that we have made--or a series of choices over time--regarding how to organize our economic activity. And if capitalism becomes detrimental, becomes bad and harmful for most people, and a threat to our sovereignty, we can chuck it out. Not easily, to be sure. In some countries--in the past--it has taken bloody revolutions to overturn capitalism-gone-whacko. No one wants a repetition of those upheavals (nor of our own bloody revolution, which was as much a revolt against British East India Company CAPITALISM, as is it was a revolt against King George owning all the land). Today we are seeing many models of PEACEFUL, DEMOCRATIC rejection if not of capitalism in its entirety, certainly of some of the basic tenets of capitalism, throughout South America. For instance, Venezuela--which long ago nationalized its oil--recently asserted its SOVEREIGN right to set the terms of oil contracts with multinationals for the greater benefit of the people of Venezuela. Prior governments required that only 10% of the profits go to the people of Venezuela. The current government has required a 60/40 split in favor of the people. And, in a correctly ordered democracy--which Venezuela certainly is--the multinationals MUST agree. They have NO RIGHT to operate in Venezuela, period, and no right to do so on THEIR terms. They must have the consent of the people, as expressed by their democratically elected government.

Venezuela has not rejected capitalism altogether (in fact, private enterprise is thriving there). It has just PUT THINGS RIGHT as to the sovereignty and consent of the people, and benefit to the people.

And, of course, one of the capitalist monsters that we have spawned--Exxon Mobil--reacted viciously, by trying to freeze $12 billion in Venezuela's assets. Exxon Mobil lost that legal fight to punish the people of Venezuela for their audacious assertion of their sovereignty--in a London court, recently. But the outline of the forces in dispute is clear: Exxon Mobil, a multinational corporation, which last year raked in absolutely unprecedented profits--$40 BILLION--a corporation chartered here in the U.S., vs. the sovereign people of Venezuela (whose DEMOCRATIC government Exxon Mobil and their puppets in our White House have been trying to violently overturn for eight years now--with coup attempts, assassination plots, an oil professionals' strike, and other destabilization efforts, and including the $5.5 billion (U.S. taxpayer) arming of the fascists in Colombia to stir up a war with Venezuela). Democracy vs. Capitalism.

Read that again: Democracy VS. Capitalism. They are NOT one and the same. Democracy comes first. It is the very ground of our freedom. It is SELF-RULE of, by and for the people. We may pick and choose among various economic ideas (or, in some cases, fight the capitalists to the death over them--as with Social Security), and put together a country that is weighted toward capitalism, with lots of socialist mitigations, or a country that is socialist, with severe restrictions on capitalism and wealth, but it is OUR CHOICE. Our "system" is DEMOCRATIC. It not necessarily capitalist--and when capitalists become monstrous, as with Exxon Mobil, we have the INHERENT RIGHT to DO something about it--to pull their corporate charter, to dismantle them and seize their assets for the common good.

Indeed, we have let the capitalists get so out of control, that they have become INTERNATIONAL monsters, trying to topple and control other peoples' governments, in addition to destroying OUR democracy with a corporate resource war in the Middle East, and stolen elections here. It may be too late. I hope and pray that it is not. There are signs of life in our democracy--among our citizenry. And the South Americans have created an astonishing renaissance of democracy in the southern hemisphere. (You wouldn't know this from our lying-ass corporate 'news' monopolies, but it's true.) There is reason to hope--but we need to fully realize that capitalism, which may have been a positive force at one time, has become more like a huge cancerous growth on our backs, in recent times. And capitalism is NOT the only form of business and trade, and is NOT the only path to prosperity. These monster corporations would like you to think that. It is one of their more successful propaganda items.

In any case, we have not had REAL capitalism for some time. Competition. Lots of small to medium sized businesses selling their wares in a true "free market." What we have are a few monster MONOPOLIES--dictating government and corporate policy for the enrichment of the few--fixing prices, writing the laws, owning our politicians, and rigging the whole system AGAINST the people, and AGAINST small business, and the creativity, industriousness and progressive politics that characterize small business people. Did you know that small business is the BIGGEST employer in the U.S.? We can do without Exxon Mobil. We cannot do without the corner grocery store, or the local hardware store, or the non-corporate book store, or the family-run restaurant, or the millions of other small businesses that employ MOST of our people, and tend to treat their employees well, and contribute to their communities.

I'm a believer in trade. I think it is one of the most progressive forces in human history. And it is in our very genes--we love variety and adventure. Monster corporations like Exxon Mobil KILL true "free trade." They don't want "free trade." They want our sons and daughters to DIE for their MONOPOLY.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Thank You Peace Patriot !
i can read many many even hundreds of threads here and there on DU daily, and yet come away with more understanding, inspiration and energy from just one honest response from you.

I wish you would post your reply here on a stand alone thread.

:thumbsup: to you!
dp
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-24-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Of course we can do all that
but we don't. One reason why this country will never have a revolution is that most people do not hate the rich; they want to be rich.

Most people don't want the "government" in their affairs - until things go wrong and then they want help from the government.

Most people do not look beyond their selfish needs, of themselves, families, and close friends and relatives... until they need the help of strangers.

Most people do not want national health care.. until they realize that their insurance will not pay for their outrageous medical costs.

So before we jump on the oil companies, let's decide how we want to regulate corporations - or not. Whether we are going to have a different set of rules for some of them - like energy - but not for others - like service providers.

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taught_me_patience Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
19. It's not just the U.S.
We do not live in a vacuum in this world. For every drop of oil we save in the U.S., China sucks it up with their growing economy.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
20. Our Capitalistic system has changed to PREDATORY CAPITALISM over
the past seven years!
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