Will Bush Junta WAR CRIMES Lead to Impeachment, Imprisonment?

[L. Coyote]

And who will be tried? Watch these videos first, if you have not yet:

Philippe Sands: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules "war crimes were committed"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x130304

Sands Interview on Bill Moyers Journal = May 9, 2008 = http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/05092008/profile3.htm

Marjorie Cohn: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x133624

David Luban: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x133625

Rep. John Conyers: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x131239

Rep. Jerry Nadler: Torture, Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x133622

Rep. Steve Cohen: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x131229

Rep. Mike Pence: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x131266

Rep. Scott: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x133631

Rep. Artur Davis: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x133635

Rep. Watt: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x133628

Rep. King: Guantanamo Bay and Interrogation Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x133632

Rep. Issa & Rep. Ellison: Guantanamo Bay Interrogation Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x133637

MORE VIDEOS linked here:
C-SPAN 3 replaying Philippe Sands testimony to House Comm.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3275649

Beyond the Torture Debate = Philippe Sands lecture = Run time: 91:42
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x130428

=================
Please compile, in this thread, other useful links to more videos and discussion.

[Dr.Phool]

1. ?!!!!!

:rofl:

In our dreams.

War Crimes? Maybe after steroids in baseball.

Spygate? You mean Bill Belichuck, right?

[L. Coyote]

14. If DUers are any example, you are right!

That Barry Bonds thread ran up a 1,000 hits, and these videos are just now over 30 views each on DU.

If you can trust the stats on DU, that is!
Are DU readers and participants susceptible to Psychological Operations?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1025175

[sharesunited]

2. Nah. That's what elections are for.

Even a majority of Bushco detractors won't stand for prosecutorial vengeance.

Pelosi and Reid, for all their chronic anemia, are realists.

Focus on November and on changing the course of the ship of state.

[L. Coyote]

4. Impeachment can happen after November.

The moment will come when we need to show the world the Nation has truly changed course.
I see that as inevitable, if we want to avoid another 9/11 and end the cycle of Bush's madness
creating ever more enemies.

[sharesunited]

5. Well, that's what Al Franken promises if elected.

To push for a "quickie" impeachment!

[L. Coyote]

8. Interesting. Thanks for that.

[Senator]

30. Franken Is Rationalizing His Own Inaction - Same As Pelosi/Conyers/etc

His "PR problem" was that he called for impeachment before becoming a candidate. Then the "DC Strategerists" stepped in to "advise." This "plan" is just a fig leaf for his hypocritical flip-flop. He knows it is even less likely than a new president before November.

Sadly, the projection of weak, fecklesness may well lose that Senate seat to the neofascist election thieves.

But worse yet, these types of "really pro-impeachment, trust us" folks have duped Olbermann into thinking they're being honest.

--

[L. Coyote]

32. And who does your accusation of dishonesty serve? Coleman, of course!

[Truth2Tell]

39. Does this mean you are on the record

as supporting Impeachment after November as well LC? Or a thorough criminal investigation of all Bush crimes next spring? And you won't come to the defense of Dem leaders who will inevitably hawk the "healing" and "look forward not back" memes?

[L. Coyote]

41. Put me on the record for ASAP on all of the above.

[Truth2Tell]

42. mui bueno

:thumbsup: :)

[Senator]

45. I would say the opposite is true.

Not letting our "leaders" off the hook for this kind of manipulative rubbish makes them better candidates, not worse.

In fact, it may well be that our blind acceptance of such drivel is the real reason so many D's can be counted among the DC/Euphemedia Analstocracy -- which is the only sphere where this kind of nonsense has any currency anyway.

Not to single you out personally, as this attitude is rampant (e.g., Hillabamania), but it's this myopic, zero-sum, fear-driven, poll-of-the-day, elections-only, over-strategerized beltway thinking that has been failing us for decades and continues to do so.

But even to playing out that silly game for a moment, do you really think Coleman is "poised to exploit" Franken's position on impeachment, whatever it may be? Or rather that he has teams of professionals working overtime to distance himself as far as possible from this historically-disapproved-of regime?

Bottom line is that the averge, moderately-interested voter hears Franken's "inventive" impeachment notion and immediately thinks "well, that's just crap." And they're absolutely correct. And Franken becomes just one more baloney merchant to them. Same as the rest of the Dems.

And if that's the case, then why not John "strong and wrong" McCain instead of Hillarak "weak and right (but newly hopeful)" Clintbama? The Dems simply don't have a good enough answer for that. If they did, we'd already be seeing it in the polls. Failure to impeach is losing this election and doing damage to the party.

Sorry, but being "on the record ... ASAP" for pipe dreams at best, more likely false impeachophic memes, or at worst near-war-criminal corruption is part of the problem, not the solution.

Immediate impeachment is our ONLY moral, patriotic option.

--

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I guess realism no longer includes

to protect the constitution...

I love this thinking...

Tell me exactly how are we different from 1930s Germans?

:puke:

[sharesunited]

18. Less goose-stepping?

[L. Coyote]

21. U: "Tell me exactly how are we different from 1930s Germans?"

Look at the number of views on these videos.
We are just like Good Germans, it seems.
Everyone is busy reading about sports.
Noone cares that we are War Criminals.

There is an axiom.
Inaction is a deliberate act, a decision just as is acting.

Deciding to do nothing when action can make a change,
is a decision to not change. If we do not act, we are
all a Nation of War Crimminals, nothing better, just criminals!

[Prophet 451]

28. There are differences

They are mainly differences of degree but they are there. The American economy is healthier than Germany's was when Hitler rose to power, racism is neither so prevelent nor so vitriolic. There are other differences but they are all differences of degree and a few bad days could easily reverse all of them.

[Usrename]

36. Racism is neither so prevelent nor so vitriolic?

Really?

Aren't we killing Middle-eastern Muslims with impunity? Don't we want to destroy their entire culture, their civilization?

How much more racist does it get? Just wondering what planet you're on.

[Prophet 451]

38. This one, I assure you

It's debateable whether the intention is to destroy their entire culture and civilisation or whether that's a byproduct but the important difference is that the racism is directed towards an external body rather than an internal one (i.e. a segment of one's own population). When racism is directed towards an external scapegoat, the killing goes on at range and therefore requires less psychological justification. In other words, so long as those being killed are safely out of sight and mind, they can be psychologically justified as something other than racism.

Also, most of the country are against the war and against the effect to wipe out Muslims. While it's questionable how willing they were to go along with the death camps, German society is the early thirties was mostly willing to kill off or, at least, "get rid of" the Jews.

[Zhade]

20. Holding criminals accountable is "prosecutorial vengeance"? Such fucking cowardly BULLSHIT.

NT!

[sharesunited]

22. If you could end the occupation right now, but forego

prosecution of Cheney-Bush, would you take that deal?

Do you think you have a majority of the American People behind any effort to prosecute? At least a quarter of them think Cheney-Bush are heroes and another 26% in the mushy middle think "well at least he's kept us safe."

No, this is a political locomotive, and you should try to harness whatever steam remains in it to elect a Democrat to the presidency.

Because the steam is being bled off right now by the fight in the Democratic party and the smearing of our candidates.

[L. Coyote]

23. We don't make deals with terrorists. That's too Reaganesque!!

We may have to wait until after Nov., but their criminal conduct must be dealt with eventually.

[sharesunited]

25. Sure would feel good to see justice. But best way to destroy a mandate IMO.

[L. Coyote]

26. A Vote for Change is a Mandate to Restore Justice!!

I'm no Bush apologist. I'm not seeking rationales to repeat past errors,
like failure to bring justice to the Iran-Contra murderers. Enforce the Mandate!!!

[Truth2Tell]

40. It's about more than "feeling good."

If Bill Clinton and the Dem leadership in 1993 hadn't used the same exact rationales you are peddling here we may not have suffered through the last 7 years of criminal destruction of our Republic.

The Democrats chose to "move on" rather than prosecute Iran-Contra to it's logical conclusions, and the neo-con cabal was left intact to rise again from the ashes like Jason in Halloween.

We need to put a stake through the hearts of these bastards or they will be back.

[sharesunited]

46. But who is the "we" you are talking about? You need popular support for it.

And I am quite certain such support is not there.

[ladjf]

3. Until they do, we can know for sure that our Government is not

yet honest.

[L. Coyote]

6. INDEED. We are now paying for the failures of accountabilty after Iran-Contra.

The same bunch of criminals in the Iran-Contra "Enterprise" are now working in the Bush Junta.

[ladjf]

7. Quite true.

[tom_paine]

10. Exactly. But it goes back further than that.

Back to 1974, when we let Nixon go for his crimes, without fully investigating and exposing them (how much you want to bet Bush and Cheney were Watergate "middle management" and thus not on the tapes with the "upper management"?)

Sadly, it goes back even further than that, to our greatest of Democratic Presidents and what was undoubtedly his greatest mistke, letting Prescott Bush and his band of Nazi traitors go, when we had them dead to rights for HIGH TREASON in 1935.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml

[L. Coyote]

11. Indeed. We can still investigate Nixon's crimes, IMO we should.

[spanone]

9. someone has to pursue such things....don't see it happening. the crimes are staggering.

:shrug:

[L. Coyote]

12. I hope it goes in the Dem platform. Complete investigations on every front of

corruption, war crimes, politicization of justice and spending, fraud and abuse of military spending, more, more, more .... required to restore democracy.

[Fireweed247]

13. If we are to save what is left of our Democracy

and what little respect we have left in the world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Given that BCCI and other crimes were pushed under the rug

in 1992... I don't hold much hope

We no longer live in the country I thought I came to

[MiniMe]

17. Impeachment? Not unless he attacks Iran

Will he be tried? Perhaps by the international court, but the US will never hand over a past President to the international courts, and I doubt that * will leave the US again unless its to go to Paraguay.

[L. Coyote]

19. Paraguay has extradition treaties like other democracies, including with the USA.

[pberq]

24. Kick & Nominated

[Prophet 451]

27. No

Barring an attempt to actually enact that coup that he and Cheney have been dreaming of, Bush will leave office in January. Any attempt to investigate his crimes thereafter will be shouted down as "ancient history", critics will be told to "move on", he'll give a few speaking tours to rabid dittoheads who would cheer if he read out the LA phone directory, release his memoirs (dull if ghostwritten, bizarrely fascinating if personally written) and die, old, fat and mostly happy, always believing himself to have been a great president. A few pawns may be sacrificed but no-one of any consequence will be held to account, either because those with the power to hold them are afraid to reveal their own complicity or simply because no-one will care very much (apart from political junkies and history buffs).

And gradually, the evidence will disappear, the witnesses will get old and/or die off, the historical revisionism will begin (as has already been largely completed with Reagan) and twenty or thirty years from now, another scion of the Bush/Walker family will emerge and continue the family quest.

[jgraz]

29. Our best hope is exile to Paraguay.

[L. Coyote]

31. That may be the Junta's best hope, but it is not how Democracies restore Justice.

That would be a sell-out of the law and the Constitution, exactly what they are guilty of.

The wheels of justice may sometimes be slow, however that is no excuse
for greater obstruction of justice. That is a crime too, you know!!

What do you say to the victims? "We sent them on a vacation in South America" ??

[madokie]

33. No doubt in my mind that they will be brought up on charges

if not by us then by the other country signers of the ICC. If bushco walks then we don't have a democracy anymore and I am not going to even think that at this point. With a democracy they hang, theres just no two ways about that. Tts either we do still have democracy or we don't and personally I believe we still do

[L. Coyote]

34. The 80,000 people gathered in Portland yesterday believe in Democracy

and they are the new majority. It is time for the Rs to get used to it,
get on board, and get with restoring justice, wherever that may lead.

At the end of the day, we will see that the average citizen, R or Dem,
believes in Justice, and favors doing what it takes to maintain Democracy.

The problem is not the average R, many of whom will be voting for Obama,
the problem is the corrupt Junta in control of their party and the Executive.

[madokie]

35. As I've said on many occasions before

I believe we as a whole are much bigger and stronger than a band of crooked warmonger traitorous bastards. I realize they about brought us to our knees but the masses are waking up, ever so slow but waking nevertheless and what the newly awaken are seeing isn't being liked. bushco is going down, that I would bet on if I was a betting man that is.

[pleah]

37. I don't think they ever intent to impeach.

They know that Godless Warmongering Bastard and Co. have committed war crimes, among other things,
and they have done nothing.

I still hold just a little hope that they will after November. But, I am not placing bets on it.

Thank you L. Coyote, for all your hard work on keeping this out there for all to see.

K&R

[opihimoimoi]

43. Its a wish to see them IMPRISONED as warning to others on the way up the Pol ladder

[spanone]

44. did ken lay go to prison?

[AgadorSparticus]

47. no. pelosi didn't even want it.

it's just not going to happen. no one at the top EVER gets held accountable. That is the country we are living in and it disgusts me.

[L. Coyote]

48. We need change we can believe in. That mean real action, no more excuses.

If we have not learned our lesson yet ..... we are doomed.