They scrawled the words "Fuck yeah" on the pages of the Holy Koran & then they shot it full of holes

[kpete]

By Michael Ware
CNN

In our Behind the Scenes series, CNN correspondents share their experiences in covering news and analyze the stories behind the events. CNN's Michael Ware covers the Iraq war.


CNN's Michael Ware says the Quran incident could have become a crisis.

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- What the Iraqi fighter found threatened America's vital alliance with Sunni militia.

A week ago in a police station shooting range on Baghdad's western outskirts, the American-allied Iraqi militiaman found what one or more GIs had been using for target practice -- a copy of the Quran, Islam's holy book.

Riddled with bullets, the rounds piercing deep into the thick volume, the pages were shredded. Turning the holy book in his hands, the man found two handwritten English words, scrawled in pen. "F*** yeah."

The discovery was incendiary. It was an affront to Islam and a serious challenge to the religious credentials of the U.S-allied militias, or Awakening Councils, who turned on al-Qaeda and are now on the U.S. government payroll.

more at:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/17/btsc.ware/index.html

[hobbit709]

1. Winning their hearts and minds every way we can.

and the sheeple can't understand why the rest of the world hates our guts.

[msongs]

2. it is not an affront to islam. islam is not a person, it cannot be affronted. it was stupid however

murdering people in the name of a religion is an affront, but that seems to be ok according to the religious texts.

Msongs

[hobbit709]

3. How do you think the average Xian would react

if this was done to a Bible.

[Duke Newcombe]

5. Can't speak for any other Christian but me...

...but I'd think it was stupid and silly...but nothing to kill anyone over. It's just a book--the real importance is in the teachings, not the leather and paper.

Duke

[hobbit709]

8. But the fundies pointy little heads would explode.

[BigDaddy44]

88. Doubt it

I can't remember ever seeing a story about christians getting upset over desecration of a bible. I could be proven wrong, but have you ever seen them marching in the streets over something similar?

[countryjake]

89. Somewhat similar, definitely a reaction to insulting Christianity...

[Duke Newcombe]

90. True. But can you come up with something a little more recent?

Duke

[countryjake]

91. Why? Lennon's statement, merely perceived as "an insult"...

when, in fact, it was not, was met with immediate nation-wide outrage, fast and furious-like. Just because you cannot recall those bonfires doesn't mean that they aren't comparable to actions associated with affronts upon anyone's religion in this world.

[Duke Newcombe]

96. So, you're comparing those to this...

or this...nice sword on the poster, BTW...



Wonderful how we combine Nazism in with the protest...



Yah, you're right...compares equitably with Christians protesting lyrics in a song. Funny...even then, let alone since, I have not heard of them protesting and praising Hitler, or chanting for death.

Duke

[roguevalley]

98. desecrating any holy book is stupid and evil and considering the potential

for some kids to be beheaded over this, inexcusable. I don't care if no one on this thread feels its any big deal. it was. and the consequences for some innocent kid to pay with their life is probably happening right now.

[BigDaddy44]

108. Wow, I had forgotten about that

Yeah, they actually burned some records *gasp* Over 40 years ago. Remind me how many people's heads they cut off again?

[stillcool]

14. Ah..but how would you feel...

if this country were attacked and occupied, and the occupiers shot your bibles up, and pissed on them? Well...stupid and silly..but not worth killing any one over. There are far worthier causes to kill people over, like oil.

[Duke Newcombe]

44. You move goal posts better than Hillary, my friend.

Sorry, I'm not biting.

Duke

[MisterP]

80. yeah: it's as though, say, Indonesia invaded Italy, raped and tortured many of its people

caused a million deaths and plunged the rest into Nigeria-style poverty, detonated St. Mark's, stole its antiquities, shot the heads off of great artists' statues, taunted the inhabitants by shooting up the Bible, etc., etc.

[KamaAina]

92. Perhaps not, but it was an affront to Muslims

all billion or so of them worldwide.

Smooth move, Ex-Lax. :grr:

[roguevalley]

97. people view the Koran as holy, as God. to do that was the fucking

stupidest blasphemy possible. SOme american kid is going to get beheaded for this, the stupid bastards.

[Duke Newcombe]

4. If true, stupid, dangerous for everyone, and not good...

...if not true, more "they urinated on the Koran" hyperbole to further ignite tensions and justify violence agains the Coalition and civilians.

Six of one, half dozen of another.

Duke

[jwirr]

9. I think there was an actual apology from one of the generals. I doubt

it is false.

[frankly_fedup2]

62. Nope, the general apologized, kiss the quaran, held it to his forehead,

and then handed it to the tribal leader. They then accepted the apology. Wonder what they have done to the Christian Bible or the Jewish Torah. Probably burned the infidels religious books.

[jwirr]

94. I am a confessing Christian and I will not get into a fight over a book

mine or theirs - I am more interested in respect for all people and a free choice of religions.

[billdemo]

6. Well I support flag burning so I also support Koran shooting

Well I support flag burning so I also support Koran shooting. After all, they're both free speech.
Forget about these "geniuses", we need to worry about the soldiers who rape and kill innocent Iraqis.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. You ain't fooling anyone, pal. -nt

[Squatch]

21. He has a good point.

People here go apeshit over the right to burn our flag, a symbol that many people people fold as sacred. But, shoot up a Koran...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. This is the same poster who said that Obama wants to "appease" Iran. -nt

[billdemo]

29. Dude. I said that Bush called the foreign policy experts that back Obama "appeasers".

Dude. I said Bush said the experts that back Obama are "appeasers".

Full disclosure: I support Hillary Clinton. (Hence BillDemo = Bill Clinton Democrat).

[Squatch]

30. OK...how does that change the point currently under discussion?

[billdemo]

32. We can't ask our troops not to draw cartoons of Muhammad. At some point ...

What I mean is that incidenct like these are going to happen. At some point we have to stop and say "Why are we giving in to crazy demands?" Imagine the muslim religion forbade listening to western music. Would all US troops have to stop listening to music?

[magellan]

101. Crazy demands?

Are you shitting me? "Please don't desecrate our holy book" is a crazy demand??

I'm an atheist and I wouldn't consider doing something like that to ANYONE'S holy book. Yes, things like this are going to happen. That doesn't make it right or mean we should LET it happen without consequence to the offender.

[frankly_fedup2]

59. I feel we should also worry more about the innocent ppl they

kidnap, brutalize, then behead for shock value to get their terrorists' groups name out there. They don't care if they are American or not.

[krispos42]

84. That still does not make doing it a good idea

The sergeant should have had better sense for the simple fact that it is his fellow soldiers that will have to face blowback.

If they find a beheaded American soldier in the next couple of weeks, tortured with a power drill and with a shot-up Bible jammed in the stump of his neck, we'll know why, won't we?

[Warpy]

7. Remember the uproar over "Piss Christ?

Multiply that by 100 to get a sense of the outrage over the desecration of the Koran.

Even the unbelievers recognize the Koran as the foundation of their culture.

They'd better get those psychopaths out of that country fast.

In fact, they need to get all of us out of that country.

[Duke Newcombe]

10. "Psychopaths".

To whom are you referring?

Duke

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. Ooooo, I see this is your EXACT shoe size, sir!

[Duke Newcombe]

45. Um...okay...sure.

You can "see" whatever you like. However, I can tell you that there are many fine pharmaceutical interventions that can help you with these visions.

Duke

[liberal N proud]

11. And they say support our troops

I say not these troops.
The military must respect the culture regardless if they disagree fundamentaly.

[Duke Newcombe]

12. Understanding, tolerance, and accounting for the culture is crucial.

Duke

[Meiko]

13. How do we know

that it wasn't a set up from an anti-American group?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

36. Unless such "anti-American group" possesses mind control devices... how could it? -nt

[Duke Newcombe]

43. That very well may be the case...

...and I pointed that possibility out earlier in the thread. Still, that does not relieve us of the necessity of understanding HowThingsWork in their culture.

Duke

[liberal N proud]

64. Huh?

[siligut]

87. You miss the point; why am I not surprised?

The relating of these incidents true or not only seek to point out the illegal and unjust occupation of Iraq.

[frankly_fedup2]

65. So you will be celebrating African Liberation Day tomorrow and its

main agenda regarding reperations along with Obama.

[Duke Newcombe]

67. Conflating "tolerance" with "agreement" is a common mistake, Frankly...

An an easy one to make. Please consider the difference, and get back to me.

Earl

[frankly_fedup2]

69. If you do not agree with the action you should not tolerate it. It seems to me

A game of symantics.

[frankly_fedup2]

58. So when are they going to apologize for using our troops for

target practice? They didn't ask to be sent to this Hellhole.

[Duke Newcombe]

68. probaby never. n/t

Duke

[timtom]

16. Isn't that what a lot of people at DU want to do to the Bible?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

19. No. -nt

[Squatch]

20. Absolutely.

A lot of people here are chomping at the bit to deface the Bible at their earliest opportunity.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

22. Links please. -nt

[Squatch]

24. I'm sure you're bright enough to do a DU search.

Have at it.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

28. YOU made the accusation, YOU do the search. If you won't, I will declare your post a whine. -nt

[Squatch]

31. Too funny. You can "declare" all you want

but it's a well-established fact that a sizable contingent of DUers would not and *have not* hesitated to shit on any sacred religious text (especially the Christian Bible) as "myth", "fairy tales", etc. In my book, that is absolutely no different from taking those same texts to the rifle range and plugging them full of holes.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

37. "well-established fact" = "some people say" -nt

[Squatch]

40. Are you dense?

Just look through *THIS THREAD* for those "some people" (Sorry, El Pinko...gotta use you as the sacrificial lamb, here)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

42. You obviously see things that aren't there. -nt

[Balbus]

50. Probably not "want" but most people here could care less if it happened to a bible...

me being one of them.

[timtom]

56. So, the Q'uran thing

is a non-issue.

[RedCappedBandit]

61. Strawman?

[timtom]

78. Your post makes no sense.

The OP is about serious abuse and mutilation of a sacred text of a particular religion.

I interpreted this to be the theme of the OP:

"They scrawled the words 'Fuck yeah' on the pages of the Holy Koran & then they shot it full of holes"

I'm comparing two like items, i.e. sacred texts from two different religions.

When I suggested that there might be an noticable attitude on DU concerning the Bible, Balbus replied, "Probably not 'want' but most people here could care less if it happened to a bible...
me being one of them." I then wondered through implication: why should the desecration be an issue to him?

Or something like that. He could reply that he likes the Q'uran but hates the Bible. But his response indicated that both were equal in his eyes.

Help me with the strawman thing.

[RedCappedBandit]

82. Desecration doesn't have to be an issue to ME..

or any one person specifically. And in this case, I really could not care less about a few silly books.
However, that doesn't mean I am incapable of respecting the fact that other people do not feel the same way.
See where I'm coming from?

[timtom]

83. Yeah, but you dropped the term "strawman"

Admittedly you added a question mark. And the issue of the OP is NOT whether or not desecration is an issue to you or Balbus. That doesn't enter into the matter at all. The United States troops made a stupid blunder. They eyes of the world are still upon us and an act like that is one of enormity.

It's more like, "Omigod! Someone just killed the Pope."
An appropriate response is NOT "Religion is bullshit."

We have a dead world leader on our hands and whodunnit and will this plunge the world further into war.

[RedCappedBandit]

85. It seemed, to me, a strawman because..

you inferred that since the person you were replying to specifically didn't find much issue in the desecration of a book, he disregarded the entire affair as a non-issue.
I disagree with such an inference.

[timtom]

105. You still make no sense.

The desecration of a book IS the entire affair.

[Balbus]

71. It is to me - I don't give a fuck about a quran, koran, or whatever they want to call it. nt

[Duke Newcombe]

72. So, asking you if I could interest you in a Book of Mormon would be waste of time? n/t

Duke

[RedCappedBandit]

60. We wouldn't waste our time..

Either text is just that.. a bunch of paper with some ink on it.
Neither is important enough to bother defacing.

[Dreamer Tatum]

99. 360 degree double windmill backboard shattering slam dunk

In-ter-es-ting how the Koran is "Holy," yet I have never, ever, ever seen "Holy Bible" on DU, not even ironically.

[magellan]

102. Define "a lot"

I've been here for nearly four years and haven't seen "a lot" of people saying they want to deface the bible. I can't even recall one incident like that, not that that means it hasn't happened.

[Squatch]

18. The horror!

Jeeze, people. Get a fucking grip.

[El Pinko]

27. B-b-but they shot holes in a superstition book!

The zealots will be mad! Just like if someone shot at bibles in Massabama, OUR zealots would be mad.

[Schema Thing]

38. Aren't you military?

You're making light of an action which will almost certainly result in the death of other soldiers (likely already has), and could lead directly to acts of terrorism against the United States?


You sir, should get a grip.

[Squatch]

41. I am.

But, I do not expect weapons of war to be all that well-versed in the nuances of diplomacy.

[Schema Thing]

53. Sodiers aren't tools

...but yeah, I know your point; I put even more blame on the failures of the chain of command, who could easily have instilled a brain in this young man, but didn't.

Still, he can't put his moral failings off on anyone but himself.

[Duke Newcombe]

46. No need for "reasons" or pretexts...

I guess they'll be "double-dog" killing Coalition troops and civilians, now.

Duke

[Schema Thing]

49. yeah yeah, I know

there is nothing a pure, wholesome, freedom-lovin' American can do that should ever inspire anything but flowers-in-gun-barrels from anyone, anywhere, in any circumstance.

I GET it, fellow American.

[Duke Newcombe]

52. You're absolutely right. Glad we cleared that up.

Since hyperbole seems to be your stock in trade. :shrug:

Duke

[uppityperson]

73. Insulting a culture, how progressive of you.

[El Pinko]

23. It's not Holy. It is apparently holey - now.

It's just a bunch of papers bound together, just like a bible or a talmud or a sutra. Just because various superstitious people call a stack of papers "holy" doesn't make it so.

I wonder how long supposedly objective journalists will continue to humor the superstitious by referring to their various talismans and texts as "holy" without at least quotation marks or saying "the book held to be holy by followers of Islam".

It's not holy to me - there is no such thing as a holy book.

[Squatch]

25. ...

:thumbsup:

[FloridaJudy]

66. I'd be pretty damned pissed

If an invading army tried to destroy the US Constitution.





Oh wait...Bush has already tried that. And I am pretty damned pissed.

[El Pinko]

104. It's just a piece of paper.

Only the rights and ideas enshrined in the Constitution are of real significance.

I'd burn an original paper draft of the Constitution if it would enshrine and protect the liberties it lays out.

That being said, the original Constitution is of significant historical value, and destroying it would be a direct attack on national pride.

But the document is not "holy", it's just symbolic and historically important.

I think a Gideons bible would be a better comparison than this.

I used to write little smart-ass messages in the front of the bibles in hotel rooms like "Disclaimer: this is a work of fiction, not intended to be taken seriously. All people and events contained herein are fictional and cannot be construed to represent the actions or beliefs of actual historical persons".

I suppose that would make some people mad. Personally, I find it extremely presumptuous of hotel owners to leave religious materials in the rooms. I paid my money - spare me the sermon.

[uppityperson]

74. Thank you for being so tolerant of other cultures than your own

[El Pinko]

93. My complaint is more about "journalists" than it is about religious zealots.

I'm not any less tolerant of muslim religion zealots than I am of the ones in "my" culture.

Having "holy" in quotes is a minor distiction, I know - It's probably not something that would occur to a religious person.

Just me being picayune and bitchy.

[uppityperson]

95. Ah. It's not just zealots though that consider the Kuran holy.

"It's just a bunch of papers bound together, just like a bible or a talmud or a sutra. Just because various superstitious people call a stack of papers "holy" doesn't make it so."

I agree that "journalists" deserve to be in quotes. Just me being uppity.

[El Pinko]

103. That's a matter of perspective.

As an atheist, the idea of holding anything to be "holy" is zealotry to me.

Merely considering the possibility that higher power might exist is the moderate position.

Maybe elephants consider their communal graveyards to be 'holy', but it's just a pile of bones to me.

Of course the issue of whether or not the elephants'. or the muslims', irrational beliefs should be deferred to and respected to is separate altogether.

I don't condone deliberately antagonizing religious zealots by massing with their symbols.

I just think journalists should remember that the notion that a book can be "holy" is not universally held.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## DON'T DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our second quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Whatever you do, do not click the link below!

[jus_the_facts]

34. Yet JIHAD and Holy WARS are a-okay.....priorities and perspectives....sigh.

:eyes:

[Schema Thing]

35. From Wikipedia:

In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of disloyalty to one's sovereign or nation. .... A person who commits treason is known as a traitor.

Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "......citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the ." In many nations, it is also often considered treason to attempt or conspire to overthrow the government, even if no foreign country is aided or involved by such an endeavour.

Outside legal spheres, the word "traitor" may also be used a person who betrays (or is accused of betraying) their own ... nation, family, friends, or other group to which they may belong.

[leftofthedial]

39. you say that like it's a bad thing

maybe the bible is next

[Evoman]

47. God, I fucking hate religion.

Starting wars over a stupid fucking fictional book. Both sides in this conflict are dumb, as is larger humanity.

[Duke Newcombe]

48. I call post title Irony first!

:)

Duke

[Evoman]

54. hehe.

[CJCRANE]

55. The war was started over fictional WMD

not a fictional book!

[Evoman]

57. EVEN DUMBER.

I was just talking about this new conflict.

Sometimes I feel like I was born on the wrong planet.

[RedCappedBandit]

63. Conditions in the middle east are because of religion

[Duke Newcombe]

70. Only partly right...

Tribalism, artificially drawn borders, and that oily, expensive stuff in the ground all have to do with the issues as well.

Duke

[RedCappedBandit]

75. no disagreement here

[CJCRANE]

51. Iraq is no longer a secular country

that was a very inappropriate action.

The same way that if you are in India you wouldn't desecrate a Hindu icon (unless you want to get into trouble).

[defendandprotect]

76. Physical TORTURE is the issue ---

Granted there is severe psychological TORTURE, as well --
like, for instance, being forced to watch your child being raped.

This is nonsense --- like flagworship while ignoring the Constitution and Bill of Rights!!

[Beregond2]

77. The training of soldiers

does not include a course titled: "How To Be A Symbol of Western Values To The World." They are taught how to be obedient killing drones. What do you expect?

[timtom]

79. Astonishing lack of insight and understanding

by a lot of dimbulb posters who have the intellectual acuity of a gnat. They dismiss the OP event just so they can restate their puny opinion of how they feel about religion.

We KNOW how you f***ing feel about religion. You've told us over and over and over with the same hateful and strident rhetoric.

The issue, as stated by one of the more perspicacious contributors, is one of diplomacy and acts of stupidity carried out by our military. How does THAT make you feel?

[Dreamer Tatum]

100. That was NEVER the issue

Everyone knows that offending a culture you are allegedly trying to assist is an idiotic move. That's not the issue.

The issue is that Christianity and its holy book are held in derision by many here on DU, but that same level of antipathy
is more or less absent concerning Islam and the Koran.

Granted, it's not a controlled experiment: it is not clear that those who hold the Bible in contempt are suddenly offended by
the desecration of a Koran.

[timtom]

106. I believe you need to review the OP and rethink your assessment

of the issue.

I was the one who raised "The issue is that Christianity and its holy book are held in derision by many here on DU, but that same level of antipathy
is more or less absent concerning Islam and the Koran. "

Actually, someone raised it before me, but I got into an ongoing dialog with several here. See post #16.

My point in that post was, in fact, "that Christianity and its holy book are held in derision by many here on DU, but that same level of antipathy
is more or less absent concerning Islam and the Koran." But that was not the original issue. The original post reported an event.

[spoony]

107. Spot on

This thread is like some weird hybrid of the worst elements of the military and the worst elements of DU.

[ileus]

81. If it were the Bible would anyone whine?

it's a book, they're both books. Who gives a flip?

[Disturbed]

86. "Who gives a flip?"

Millions of Muslims?