Is there proof that Americans are losing jobs to illegal immigrants?

[cynatnite]

Or is this a RW talking point?

I've never seen evidence any evidence of this at all. I've heard the RW froth at the mouth over it, but no proof and no stats have ever been offered.

Maybe I'm missing something.

[Donnachaidh]

1. what constitutes *proof* for you?

Serious question. Do you really think employers are going to stand up and say Yes Siree, we DO hire people with fake paperwork, and pay them half the wages we paid the guys who did the job previously!

[cynatnite]

3. So, you can't provide a source, then? n/t

[harun]

35. You can't define the "proof" you want?

[whistle]

2. RW talking point? I doubt many RWers think that issue is worth talking about

....they love the idea of cheap imported workers who that can underpay and exploit

[cynatnite]

4. I've heard it being said mostly from the right...

have yet to see anyone back it up.

[whistle]

13. Which right? BushCo and his corporate cronies love the idea

...and have been pushing for a legitimization of "Guest Workers" and even giving so called illegal workers a fast-track path to proper documentation so they can continue to be exploited.

What RWers are you listening to and can you provide actual quotes of their opposition to undocumented workers?

Numbers I hear regarding undocumented illegals run anywhere from a few million people to some 20 million plus. My feeling is that the numbers of workers among these figures may be no more than 50% of the high number while the lowest numbers are actually pundit estimates of those illegals actually doing work.

However, with the housing bubble crash and new home construction being way down, many of these undocumented illegals have little or no unskilled paid work available. If they apply for skilled labor jobs then they must provide proof of documentation which most do not have. So they are stuck because they can not make even a minimum for survival and really have no way of returning to their countries of origin without being identified. They can't collect unemployment benefits nor can these people apply for welfare assistance without being exposed as illegals. So they hide and go underground.

[canetoad]

38. It must be terrible

when they can't decide between greed and xenophobia.

[OmahaBlueDog]

5. I don't endorse any of these: I just provide them based on your question

"However, after a careful examination of recent employment data, I have become increasingly concerned that immigration may also be reducing employment as well as wages for American workers. A study by the Center for immigration Studies published last year shows that between March 2000 and March 2004 the number of unemployed adult natives increased by 2.3 million, but at the same time the number of employed immigrants increased by 2.3 million.2 By adults I mean persons 18 and older. About half the growth in immigrant employment was from illegal immigration. And overall the level of new immigration, legal and illegal, does not seem to have slowed appreciably since 2000. By remaining so high at a time when the economy was not creating as many new jobs, immigration almost certainly has reduced job opportunities for natives and immigrants already here. "

http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/sactestimony050405.html

"Common sense, economic theory, and a fair reading of the research on this question indicate that allowing in so many immigrants (legal and illegal) with relatively little education reduces the wages and job prospects for Americans with little education. These are the Americans who are already the poorest workers. Between 2000 and 2005, the number of jobless natives (age 18 to 64) with no education beyond a high school degree increased by over two million, to 23 million, according to the Current Population Survey. During the same period, the number of less-educated immigrants (legal and illegal) holding a job grew 1.5 million.

Of greater concern, the percentage of employed native-born without a high school degree fell from 53 to 48 percent in the last five years. African Americans have particularly been affected. A September 2006 National Bureau of Economic Research paper found that immigration accounted for about a third of the decline in the employment rate of the least-educated African American men over the last few decades."

http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/amerworkers.html

"According to a study in 1996 of the costs of illegal immigration by Rice Univ. economist, Dr. Donald Huddle, illegal aliens were displacing roughly 730,000 American workers every year, at a cost of about $4.3 billion a year, and the supply of cheap labor depresses the wages and working conditions of the working poor. The approximate doubling of the illegal alien population since the time of that estimate means that the number of jobs lost to American workers and the costs of displacement would also likely have more than doubled. "

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters7443

[cynatnite]

6. Thanks...I'll look these over in more detail when I get home n/t

[OmahaBlueDog]

8. FYI, at least one of those is righty site..

...and I'm distrustful of some of the numbers.

That said, I got those by Googling "job loss americans illegal aliens"

[Adsos Letter]

14. I can say form experience, yes...

but I have to qualify it. First, i can only speak to what I personally witnessed in the construction trades in one area of the North Bay, and that was only in non-union shops (the unions weren't very successful at organizing up there).

When I took my apprenticeship,and through about the first 2/3 of my career, the wage scale was much higher than now. The demographic was also primarily white, with citizenship (I only say this to provide you with an idea of the demographics; one of the journeyman who taught me the most about the trade was an American born and raised Hispanic guy that I went to high school with).

About 7 years ago the demographic of employees shifted rapidly to Hispanic workers, primarily from Michoacan, and mostly here illegally. This I know for a fact because, having been in the trades for over 20 years, I was on very familiar terms with many of the employers in the various trades with which we worked.

Wages did drop, and some of the employers had the specific attitude of "hey, we just use these guys as a source of cheap labor", I am not using the exact words, but that was the exact attitude. Some employers were not so expoitative, but they were a definite minority.

Also, training programs often ceased to be as thorough; in many cases (not all) emphasis seemed to be on just training enough to get jobs done, not on creating well-rounded journeymen.

And again, only from what I have personal knowledge of, those wage savings were not passed on to consumers, but generally served to enrich the lifestyle of employers and a few key employees (often older, non-hispanic supervisors).

Yes, business costs DID go up during this period, but so did employer lifestyles, or so it seemed to me.

I was old enough, and well-experienced enough that these issues did not effect me personally. My skills and experience were valued, and I was always well compensated.

But anyone coming into the non-union workforce, no matter what ethnocultural background, were facing a career path of diminished earning potential.

This is all based solely on my own experience in one small sector of the economy. How representative it is I can only speculate.

[Gormy Cuss]

7. There are several legit studies which concluded that there is a negative impact

for low skilled workers (high school dropouts in particular) in the form of driving down wages. I don't recall if there is consensus on whether there is clear evidence of displacement. How much it has affected these wages is varies widely from study to study, which means at a minimum that economists have had a hard time measuring it.

There are also massive anecdotes within the tech sector of legal immigrants on VISAs depressing wages too, but I don't know of a formal, nonpartisan study on that segment.


Here's one article with a lot of cites on immigration and potential economic impacts-- if you google the citations you should be able to find better answers.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401686.html

[EFerrari]

41. That's pretty much what I remember from a woman who did a study

at Princeton and presented it on BookTv. In a few niches, there is an impact but not on the general workforce, iirc.

[izquierdista]

9. Anecdotal evidence

There are some construction specialties (like drywall) where contractors bidding with union labor cannot compete with those who go and pick up their staff at day labor sites early in the morning. In Las Vegas, most residential construction uses drywallers that are day labor, and the drywall union has had to fall back on commercial and government jobs, where employee status is better monitored.

It's not just a "RW talking point". The U.S. has the worst enforcement of labor laws for foreign workers of any place that I have traveled. Everywhere else, it is a complete non-starter if you can't show the proper stamp on your visa to be working.

The fact that there is not a lot of scientifically gathered data to document it works to the advantage of employers who want low wage workers, with no benefits, paid under the table.

[Adsos Letter]

16. I had much the same experience in the Painting trade...

before I finally retired after 32 years. It doesn't seem like any of those "cost savings" were passed on to customers, either, from what I knew.

[izquierdista]

26. Amazing how that happens

That workers who get paid 1/3 the union rate mean that the customer saves only 10% on the job. :think:

[L. Coyote]

10. Do'h! Three decades of stagnant construction wages.

[Subdivisions]

11. Come to Texas and look over any construction site...

The immigrants doing the work there...? That work used to be done by Americans. Immigrants have completely taken over the concrete installation industry here in Texas. But 20 years ago Americans did that work. American Carpenters/Framers sit at home or find other work because immigrants are building the houses now.

I don't have a problem with immigrants working here but it's a shame American laborers suffer for it.

This is just the type of discussion that devolves into a flame-fest. So, this will be my only comment in this thread.

[Adsos Letter]

15. it was the same in the Painting trade before i retired n/t

[madokie]

12. You are kidding, right

a couple weeks ago a local school that was under construction was raided by the sheriffs department and they arrested 11 undocumented workers while one got away. The job is being completed by locals now. I have a right to be very concerned with the employment opportunities as I have much family in the work force who are having to compete against a low wage earner such as illegal immigrants who have no choice but to take the job for low wages due to their illegal status. I can't believe you are actually asking this question you have. Since house bill 1804 passed and came into being law here in OK our local folks are seeing a hiring increase. How do I know this, because I live here with these folks some of which are friends and family. It is not on the backs of illegal immigrants I put the onus, it is upon the employers who hire them. Ok is getting tough and its making a difference around here. :grr:

[otherlander]

17. Why are we allowing the media to frame the debate this way?

Why are we allowing them to play us against each other? Your average people everywhere in North America realize that these free trade deals suck. In America, we've got the Teamsters trying to stop this shit, and in Mexico there are the Zapitistas, but how many Teamsters even know that the Zapatistas exist? U.S. workers think they have to fight the trade deals to stop Mexicans from stealing their jobs, meanwhile, the fact that people in Mexico hate these trade deals just as much as Americans do has been completely obscured. Because if it wasn't obscured, then U.S. labor leaders might actually start working with the people who are trying to make Mexico not a place that has to be run away from, and the elites can't have that! How much longer are we going to play into this frame?

[Adsos Letter]

19. You raise good points...

I have long believed that the Mexican government, with the complicity of American business interests, utilizes illegal immigration as a way to reduce pressure for change within Mexico.

[otherlander]

40. Yep. If they leave their country they can't vote.

Do you think there's any chance of U.S. labor leaders ever working with people like the Zapatistas? In theory, their goals are pretty similar: Stop bad trade deals, make Mexico livable, and stop making it necessary for Mexicans to move illegally into the U.S.

[pscot]

18. The real issue is wages, not jobs

Undocumented workers are at the mercy of unscrupulous employers. The availability of cheap, undocumented workers with no legal standing, depresses wages across the board. Illegals command lower pay, no benefits, and often avoid social security deductions and income tax witholding. American workers can't compete on that basis, and wages for all workers are depressed.

[Adsos Letter]

21. Yes...

and if illegals are put on payrolls, as is sometimes the case, they are taxed for social security benefits they will never be able to claim.

[VP505]

24. How do you know for sure

that the SS taxes being collected are actually being paid?

[Adsos Letter]

25. I saw the W-2's for some of the guys who worked with us...

but that isn't any proof that the money actually was sent in, although my boss was pretty careful about that stuff.

But you raise a good point... it is another source of potential exploitation.

[sinkingfeeling]

28. The SSA admits to receiving $7.2 billion in payroll taxes paid under invalid SSNs.

http://www.projo.com/news/content/immi05x_08-05-07_M16KN18.366efd1.html


"Every year, U.S. employers file millions of wage reports — 8 million last year alone — with invalid Social Security numbers, many of which are being used by illegal immigrants.

In tax year 2003, for example, $7.2 billion in Social Security payroll taxes flowed into the U.S. Treasury based on wage reports for which the agency found “no match” in its records. That represents about $200 for every person in the country who is 65 or older.

That is equal to roughly 4 percent of the nation’s Gross Domestic Product."

[aponteaponte]

20. Obama says there is no proof

The loss is insignificant.

[Adsos Letter]

22. Well IF Obama said that, then he obviously hasn't had to compete for wages in the trades.

But I would want to see a quote on that...

[sandnsea]

36. He said don't scapegoat people

Problems of low income workers have been here long before the illegal immigrants and will be here if they're gone, that's what he said. We have to fight for workers all over the world.

[Adsos Letter]

39. That sounds more like it..and he's right, too!

[flashl]

23. The Wall Street Journal:An immigration raid aids blacks for a time

STILLMORE, Ga. -- After a wave of raids by federal immigration agents on Labor Day weekend, a local chicken-processing company called Crider Inc. lost 75 percent of its mostly Hispanic 900-member work force. The crackdown threatened to cripple the economic anchor of this fading rural town.

But for local African-Americans, the dramatic appearance of federal agents presented an unexpected opportunity. Crider suddenly raised pay at the plant. An advertisement in the weekly Forest-Blade newspaper blared "Increased Wages" at Crider, starting at $7 to $9 an hour -- more than a dollar above what the company had paid many immigrant workers. The company began offering free transportation from nearby towns and free rooms in a company-owned dormitory near to the plant. For the first time in years, local officials say, Crider aggressively sought workers from the area's state-funded employment office -- a key avenue for low-skilled workers to find jobs. Of 400 candidates sent to Crider -- most of them black -- the plant hired about 200.

...

For the first time since significant numbers of Latinos began arriving in Stillmore in the late 1990s, the plant's processing lines were made up predominantly of African-Americans.

The sudden reversal of economic fortunes in Stillmore underscores some of the most complex aspects of the pitched debate over immigration: Do illegal immigrants take jobs from low-skilled American workers? The answer in Stillmore initially appeared to be yes.

[treestar]

27. There is no proof. It is "logic" to those for whom the economy is

a static, magical thing with x number of jobs created 21 years after x number of babies were born in the U.S., and those babies all magically grow up to fit that exact number of jobs with those exact qualifications. They believe the US is something like the old USSR, with complete planning, and that planning works.

The job market never changes (for example, there were the same number of IT jobs in 1960 as there are today, only adjusted for the number of babies born in the U.S. in 1939 rather than the number born in 1986).

When an American born person graduates from college or high school, there is supposed to always be a job waiting for them in whatever field they chose or whatever job they want. This job should pay a "living wage." (Can afford a mortgage, car, video camera, etc.). If that is not available, or a good choice not available, on that citizen's terms and in the location the citizen wants it to be in, it is obvious that some nasty employer has given that job to a foreigner.

There is no such thing as starting a new business. All companies have already been created and have a limited number of jobs which never expands. It sometimes contracts, due to the meanness of the employer who just wants to lay people off, because an employer always makes more profit when it lays people off. Or because the employer is perverse and would just rather have foreigners in the jobs.

Why the employer does this is unknown, as the employer has to file government documents with filing fees and various items of proof in order to get the visa for the foreigner.

The fact that the immigration laws actually provide that no one can bring in a foreigner to work without proving there are no qualified or willing Americans is to be ignored. That law obviously is not followed ever. The government is so evil that it does not enforce that law, as it wants foreigners to come and work and leave Americans to be unemployed, presumably on welfare. Apparently the H-1Bs and other legal workers pay the taxes to keep the Americans who could have had the job on unemployment and welfare. This is done for no other reason that pure meanness and the desire to make things run worse, since those Americans would have done a better job.


:sarcasm:

[Adsos Letter]

29. It is logic...

to those who have experienced firsthand the depressing results on wages and training standards as employers in their (in this case, trade) shift from documented, legal workers to undocumented, illegal immigrants. There also seems to be a strong element of racism in how that shift is applied; I knew 2 guys from England, and 1 from Australia, who were white, here illegally, yet were able to demand higher wages. That was probably because English was their native tongue, and they also understood the true value of their labor.

"There is no such thing as starting a new business. All companies have already been created and have a limited number of jobs which never expands."

No...but most non-union shops (in the trades, in my area) have already set the bar so low in terms of competitive wages and benefits that successful competition without resorting to the same tactics is practically impossible.

No sarcasm intended...


EDIT: spelling and composition... :dunce:

[lumberjack_jeff]

32. In 2001 the employment-to-population ratio was 73.1% It is now 71.5%

There are more people and the same number of jobs.

The OP asked a question that can only be answered by an anecdote. Since one tree-planter has been replaced by an illegal worker then the answer is yes. Repeat this phenomenon 12 million times, and pretty soon you have data.

[treestar]

42. Perhaps that is the result of putting so many restrictions on the

number of immigrants who come. The economy contracts rather than expands, just because we don't want more than x number of foreigners working here. Some of them would have created jobs by their presence. Their consumption, or their contribution to the company could have made it grow.

I know lots of Americans who are dying to be tree planters but can't find a job. :sarcasm:

[Zorra]

30. I used to pick apples as a kid until so many workers from other countries

came to the orchards of Washington State that it stopped wages from increasing significantly. This also made it much more difficult to get work, particularly in the better orchards that had small trees to work in.

Also, lot of travelers, "fringe dwellers", winos, and plain old people who were out of work from all over the country came to work the apple harvest until the influx of "undocumented" workers made it difficult to impossible to find decent paying work.

So yeah, I can tell you that I have experienced and observed firsthand how American citizens lost jobs to "undocumented" workers.

[lumberjack_jeff]

31. 12 million illegal residents are here. They are working.

If they were not here, someone else would be doing those jobs.

Clearly no proof would be adequate.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[OhioChick]

34. I Know of Many Friends That Have Had to Train

Indians for their jobs. I could give you many links to confirm the information you search for, however the search function isn't available at the moment.

You can start with the Programmer's Guild.

http://www.programmersguild.org/

Are you in the IT field? If not, that would explain why you haven't heard a word. The American media doesn't report on it (surprise, surprise) and I post regarding much job loss here....usually from foreign news sources.

Are you talking about "illegal immigration" or H-1B visas?

On edit to add: I believe that you're strictly talking about illegal immigration.

[bonito]

37. This is how it works here in fl

One guy with legal paper work gets the work but once out at the construction site he has many working without paper work, the builders look the other way because its cheaper, no big secret.

[michreject]

43. Yes.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-05-12-iowa-immigration_N.htm

Hundreds arrested in Iowa immigration raid
Updated 3d 22h ago | Comments63 | Recommend18 E-mail | Save | Print |




Yahoo! Buzz Digg Newsvine Reddit FacebookWhat's this?By Nigel Duara and William Petroski, The Des Moines Register
POSTVILLE, Iowa — A raid by federal immigration officials at the nation's largest kosher meatpacking plant may have resulted in as many as 700 arrests, immigration officials said Monday
Agents from U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement entered the Agriprocessors Inc. complex in northeast Iowa Monday morning to execute a criminal search warrant for evidence relating to aggravated identity theft, fraudulent use of Social Security numbers and other crimes, said Tim Counts, a Midwest ICE spokesman. Cont....

Who do you think would be working there if not for the illegals?