Libby jury has 2 more questions - for Monday

[dancingme]

NOTE #1: As count 1 statement 3 (pages 63 & 64) do not contain quotes, are we supposed to evaluate the Libbry transcripts (testimony) or would the court direct us to specific pages/lines.

NOTE #2: We would like clarification of the term “reasonable doubt”. Specifically, is it necessary for the government to present evidence that it is not humanly possible for someone not to recall an event in order to find guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

[alstephenson]

1. Uh oh....

I don't like question #2 at all.

[dancingme]

3. why are they asking about reasonable doubt now

after all these days of deliberation?

[speedoo]

6. It could be that one or more jurors is holding out...

and if such holdouts have expressed that view of reasonable doubt, the judge will certainly straighten them out on Monday!

[underpants]

2. #2 sounds like they are leaning away from there being reasonable doubt

but I am an accountant not a lawyer

[malaise]

4. My take as well

Come on jury - Monday please. Guilty, guilty, guilty!

[speedoo]

5. Whoah. I LOVE the reasonable doubt question.

I mean, if that's the definition of reasonable doubt they want to get off the table, it certainly looks good.

[Demobrat]

7. I'm with you!

I'm not a lawyer but I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

[speedoo]

8. Same here. I'm no lawyer, but we do know that..

"resonable doubt" does NOT mean the Gov't has to prove anything to a scientific certainty.

[H2O Man]

24. This is a good thing.

It's easy to forget that the average adult who functions quite well in the greater society, often has no more than a prime-time television grasp of the legal system. I can think of no individual who is more capable to explaining to the jury exactly what reasonable doubt is -- and is not.

[dancingme]

9. OK maybe some holdout wants to be sure

that reasonable doubt doesn't mean beyond all doubt.

[speedoo]

10. That's my read.

Maybe Monday will be the day!

[Fresh_Start]

23. I love the reasonable doubt question

they're not hairsplitting between 41% likely v 58% likely.... they're trying to decide between 'not humanly possible' versus other.

[Spazito]

11. Here are the pdfs of the actual notes...

http://blog.courttv.com/inside/files/notes.pdf

It seems they have narrowed down their focus and these two are the major outstanding questions remaining given the differences between the two; the first being very specific to count1, statement 3, the second being much more general as to the jury instructions.

Pure speculation on my part but I think they are very close, relatively speaking, to concluding their deliberations.

[blogslut]

12. Question #2

Sounds like the jury is pretty sure Libby didn't forget a damned thing but that in the grand scope of human experience, there's a remote possibility that he might have forgotten - if he is indeed, human. :)

[Beetwasher]

18. Right, There's A Remote Possibility, But It's Not A Reasonable Possibility

And not one that a reasonable person would consider possible.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

13. Sounds like there's a lot of debate going on behind closed doors

Could be one or two of the jury who have taken a stand. In particular, it looks like at least one jury member is interpreting "beyond a reasonable doubt" to mean "beyond human possibility" to not recall something. That would be a bad interpretation of the law. The standard is not whether it is humanly possible for Libby to have forgotten. That would require the government's case to eliminate any doubt, not just a reasonable doubt. It looks like the rest of the jury is confronting one or two very stubborn jurors.

[Demobrat]

15. Legal definition of reasonable doubt

REASONABLE DOUBT - The level of certainty a juror must have to find a defendant guilty of a crime. A real doubt, based upon reason and common sense after careful and impartial consideration of all the evidence, or lack of evidence, in a case.

Proof beyond a reasonable doubt, therefore, is proof of such a convincing character that you would be willing to rely and act upon it without hesitation in the most important of your own affairs. However, it does not mean an absolute certainty.

[rodeodance]

14. drats. oh oh oh oh............

[radfringe]

16. reasonable doubt -- they are defining the term

where's the threshold for reasonable doubt in the issue of memory?

I was going to bring in a sweater for a co-worker today - but I forgot it in the hubbub of getting ready to get my butt out the door -- BUT I remembered I forgot it when I was 3/4 of the way to work

a forgotten sweater is not a big deal nor a crucial/important thing - so it's reasonable that since bringing in sweaters for co-workers is not part of my usual routine, that I may have forgotten it

Now as to Plame - Libby and Cheney met on this, information was passed between them. The Wilson article was of great interest and importance to Libby and Cheney - the meetings were not discussions of what to order for lunch and by the way Wilson's wife works at the CIA.

The meetings were more like Wilson's wife works at the CIA, spin it so it looks like Wilson's wife sent him on the trip without our knowledge.

Forgetting something like that - seems a bit far fetched and well outside the realm of "reasonable doubt"

I also agree that since this question is being asked that there may be 1 or 2 hold outs that are interpreting reasonable doubt as absolutely no doubt

[Czolgosz]

17. How did the judge respond to note #2?

[dancingme]

20. He will address the notes on Monday

jury left at 2pm today because some of them had to attend patent-teacher conferences.

[Czolgosz]

21. Thanks. The legal definition of reasonable doubt is so much less stringent than the goofy "not

humanly possible" standard that this should shift a few jurors off center.

[Beetwasher]

22. Right

It may be "humanly possible" that he forgot, but it's certainly not REASONABLE to believe he forgot. No normal, reasonable person would believe he forgot.

[DemReadingDU]

25. I like this, maybe you could talk to the jury!

:)

[Annces]

19. Aye yi yi

I hope they aren't overthinking this whole thing.