Pentagon Cover Up *****15,000 OR MORE US DEATHS IN THE IRAQ WAR?

[seemslikeadream]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3291263

maddezmom (1000+ posts) Wed Apr-30-08 07:26 PM
Original message
US vets' attorney asks judge to help stem suicides
Source: Reuters

SAN FRANCISCO, April 30 (Reuters) - Saying 18 U.S. veterans commit suicide every day, a lawyer representing veterans' groups asked a federal judge on Wednesday to order the government to provide better mental health care.

"The system, your honor, has crashed, it has been overwhelmed," Arturo Gonzalez told Judge Samuel Conti. "More of these veterans are dying in the United States than out in combat. That is wrong."

Gonzalez cited studies that found veterans committed suicide between three and 7.5 times more often than the national average. That has meant 1,467 deaths between October last year and March 31 for veterans whose medical claims were under appeal.

"Without your help, it's going to get a lot worse," the attorney said, saying some veterans waited years to have the claims reviews processed. "There is only one person on Earth who can help these veterans."

Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N30525645.htm






I got into a bit of trouble here


Pentagon Cover Up *****15,000 OR MORE US DEATHS IN THE IRAQ WAR?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2303879


http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney11172007.html

Pentagon Cover Up
15,000 or More US Deaths in Iraq War?


....

The Pentagon was covering up the real magnitude of the "suicide epidemic". Following an exhaustive investigation of veterans' suicide data collected from 45 states; CBS discovered that in 2005 alone "there were at least 6,256 among those who served in the armed forces. That's 120 each and every week in just one year."

That is not a typo. Active and retired military personnel, mostly young veterans between the ages of 20 to 24, are returning from combat and killing themselves in record numbers. We can assume that "multiple-tours of duty" in a war-zone have precipitated a mental health crisis of which the public is entirely unaware and which the Pentagon is in total denial.

If we add the 6,256 suicide victims from 2005 to the "official" 3,865 reported combat casualties; we get a sum of 10,121. Even a low-ball estimate of similar 2004 and 2006 suicide figures, would mean that the total number of US casualties from the Iraq war now exceed 15,000.

That's right; 15,000 dead US servicemen and women in a war that--as yet--has no legal or moral justification.

CBS interviewed Dr. Ira Katz, the head of mental health at the Department of Veteran Affairs. Katz attempted to minimize the surge in veteran suicides saying, "There is no epidemic of suicide in the VA, but suicide is a major problem."

[peacebird]

1. very very sad, but K & R

[Uncle Joe]

2. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, seemslikeadream.

[seemslikeadream]

3. Have you seen this?

GULF WAR ILLNESS - CONSPIRACY TEST
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhvdkdMFVJQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uErdz5NYmI4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD_hR__sHzk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBZ-ZpCExi8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwFQJj8Zbdg

[Uncle Joe]

5. Not yet but thanks for the links. n/t

[druidity33]

7. Thank you!

excellent stuff.

K&R

[malaise]

4. You've been exposing this for a long time

K & R

[indepat]

6. Just wondering at what threshold suicides become epidemic

:shrug:

[lovuian]

12. I think we are there but nobody wants to admit it

The Destruction of our Military is quite criminal

[me b zola]

15. It seems as though national media coverage is the threshold

The numbers as they are documented are enough for me, as a civilian, to realize that it is an epidemic. When it becomes widely known to be an epidemic is a matter of the national press giving this subject 1/4, hell, 1/32, the time that they spend on Rev Wright.

[indepat]

35. The national press is going to give the amount of time necessary to push their RW agenda,

showing it in the best possible light: to hell with the dynamite and bombs bursting all around, to hell with all the water the ship of state and economy is taking on. :D

[seemslikeadream]

8. Three Democratic senators called for Katz's dismissal this week.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2008/04/27/veterans_affairs_official_denies_cover_up_of_suicide_rates/?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed6

On Monday, the first day of trial, an e-mail message written in December by Dr. Ira Katz, the agency's mental health director, was given as evidence. It alerted Kussman and others that 12,000 veterans under VA care were attempting suicide a year.

"Is this something we should (carefully) address ourselves in some sort of release before someone stumbles on it?" the e-mail asks.

Katz also reported that of the average of 18 military veterans who kill themselves each day, four to five of them are under VA care when it happens.

Three Democratic senators, including Sen. Daniel Akaka of Hawaii, chairman of the Veterans Affairs Committee, called for Katz's dismissal this week.

[leftchick]

47. good lord!

talk about complicity! MFers! :argh:

[seemslikeadream]

9. before someone stumbles on it?”

http://rinf.com/alt-news/contributions/general/emails-suggest-cover-up-of-vets-suicide-rate/3190/

Katz sent the message to the agency’s media relations chief February 13: “Shh! Our suicide prevention coordinators are identifying about 1,000 suicide attempts per month among the veterans we see in our medical facilities. Is this something we should (carefully) address ourselves in some sort of release before someone stumbles on it?”




The disparity between the content of internal correspondence and public statements of VA officials suggests a cover-up. Indeed, in one email reviewed by the court, dated March 10, communications officer Chasen commented, “I don’t want to give CBS any more numbers on veterans suicides or attempts than they already have—it will only lead to more questions.”

[lovuian]

10. Stop Loss Movie addressed this but I believe that US programming

is causing this... Its a breakdown of the whole mind

These soldiers are self destructing... to not to want to live

and would choose to kill themselves shows the feeling of desperation despair

It shows me that the human being will self destruct rather than continue killing and making war.

The Congress and Bush have wrought such a evil

[rudy23]

11. This should also be considered in the wake of Katrina, and similar events.

Not to compare it to war, or anything else, but it's something to think about.

[Rex]

13. JFC!

How much more??????

[seemslikeadream]

14. SF: ATTORNEYS PRESENT FINAL ARGUMENTS IN VETERANS TREATMENT FEDERAL CASE

http://cbs5.com/localwire/22.0.html?type=bcn&item=VETERANS-CASE

[1]

16. be cautious in how you use these numbers....

the facts of veteran suicide are appalling. the iraq war is atrocious and all of our troops should have been on a boat home a year ago (or should never have been deployed.) none of this is anywhere near acceptable and i am not an apologist.

but the statistics here are "apples and oranges" calculations.

"Saying 18 U.S. veterans commit suicide every day, a lawyer representing veterans' groups asked a federal judge on Wednesday to order the government to provide better mental health care."

very true in every aspect. but these numbers include every living person (wwii on) that has ever served in the military. not just current iraq war personnel.


so the statement "If we add the 6,256 suicide victims from 2005 to the "official" 3,865 reported combat casualties; we get a sum of 10,121. Even a low-ball estimate of similar 2004 and 2006 suicide figures, would mean that the total number of US casualties from the Iraq war now exceed 15,000."

is just wrong. again, these numbers include every living person (wwii on) that has ever served in the military that committed suicide.


approximately 88 people commit suicide in the us every day. i know, every day. approximately 18 of those at some point served in the military. all of this is appalling. this should be the focus of our disgust. why 32,000 every year would feel the need to do that.

but adding every single "veteran" suicide to the current iraq war body count is disingenuous and will come back to haunt us in the end.

its not true. don't act as if it was.

[seemslikeadream]

17. I've already gone over this before months ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2303879





before someone stumbles on it?”


http://rinf.com/alt-news/contributions/general/emails-suggest-cover-up-of-vets-suicide-rate/3190 /

Katz sent the message to the agency’s media relations chief February 13: “Shh! Our suicide prevention coordinators are identifying about 1,000 suicide attempts per month among the veterans we see in our medical facilities. Is this something we should (carefully) address ourselves in some sort of release before someone stumbles on it?”




The disparity between the content of internal correspondence and public statements of VA officials suggests a cover-up. Indeed, in one email reviewed by the court, dated March 10, communications officer Chasen commented, “I don’t want to give CBS any more numbers on veterans suicides or attempts than they already have—it will only lead to more questions.”

[1]

18. ok...

so what is your point?

your own posts point to vet suicides. yes. every vet suicide. they do exist. every day. and that is wrong. and that is sad.


so when the true patriot from wwii, that charged omaha beach, decides mistakenly to end his life for reasons we will never understand (God bless him.)

you want to include his death into this iraq clusterfuck death toll.


go over it again, seemslikeadream. i'm missing something about how you count.

[seemslikeadream]

20. Do you know how many WWII veterans are still living?

[seemslikeadream]

44. “I don’t want to give CBS any more numbers on veterans suicides

I don’t want to give CBS any more numbers on veterans suicides or attempts than they already have—it will only lead to more questions.



Pray tell what does this mean to you? You never answer my questions :shrug:

[The Magistrate]

21. And Nothing Has Changed In The Figures Since Then, Ma'am

15.000 Iraq war veterans have not committed suicide, and the gentleman writing for 'counterpunch' either knows that and disregards it in his resolve to entertain and titillate, or is a dullard in regard to arithmetic on a scale that would make people who take out pay-day loans seem savvy financiers by comparison.

[seemslikeadream]

22. Something has changed

before someone stumbles on it?”


http://rinf.com/alt-news/contributions/general/emails-suggest-cover-up-of-vets-suicide-rate/3190 /

Katz sent the message to the agency’s media relations chief February 13: “Shh! Our suicide prevention coordinators are identifying about 1,000 suicide attempts per month among the veterans we see in our medical facilities. Is this something we should (carefully) address ourselves in some sort of release before someone stumbles on it?”




The disparity between the content of internal correspondence and public statements of VA officials suggests a cover-up. Indeed, in one email reviewed by the court, dated March 10, communications officer Chasen commented, “I don’t want to give CBS any more numbers on veterans suicides or attempts than they already have—it will only lead to more questions.”

[The Magistrate]

24. That Changes Nothing, Ma'am

It does not alter the figures of reported deaths, nor alter that they are global figures including all veterans of whatever age or period of service. To take the high end of the figures for young veterans in the article you cite, roughly thirty per hundred thousand yearly, you cannot arrive at a death toll above 300 per year, or fifteen hundred for the course of the fighting, among the age group that provides the bulk of combatants, even loosely defined. Doubtless some portion of these do commit suicide as a result of mental trauma suffered in service. In no previous war, however, have suicides among service members, outside the combat zones, our after return to civilian status, ever been reckoned as war casualties. You can be sure casualties from WWII, Korea, and Viet Nam would be padded considerably were this done. Doubtless the V.A. does try to cover-up and otherwise minimize its shoddy performance regarding the mental health of veterans, but it does not control that statistics on suicides, or the report of their demographics compiled by civil authorities and health professionals. However much it might want to, it lacks the capability to do what you are alleging.

[nashville_brook]

52. there's too much social cost that the military "doesn't count" --

"In no previous war, however, have suicides among service members, outside the combat zones, our after return to civilian status, ever been reckoned as war casualties."

maybe they should.

we'd do well to examine ALL the ways in which social costs are shifted from the military back into civilian society at large. this is one important measure of how war impacts our social fabric -- one, that, if counted, could lead to more opposition to war.

suicides are just one facet. people returning with mental/emotional trauma aren't going to blend back into society and are likely going to require intervention/social services. many simply won't fit back in and will become homeless. some will end up hurting other people.

i suppose these are numbers looking for definition. these discussions move us in that direction.

[seemslikeadream]

23. Could you point to where he said that?

I don't see where he says that 15,000 committed suicide

[The Magistrate]

25. A Misreading Of the Figures On My Part, Ma'am: He Alleges Roughly 12,000, Not 15.000

Hopefully you will accept my plea of the lateness of the hour for the glazing of my eyes. As the figures are of similar orders of magnitude, it makes no material difference. He is basing the calculation on figures of 6.000 plus suicides among all veterans in a single year, and does so by lumping them all as 'casualties' of the Iraq war, which is egregiously wrong, and then imputing that at least that many many such 'casualties' of the Iraq war must have occured in other years.

[ladywnch]

53. he didn't say 15000 Iraq vets committed sucide. He said if you

add the number of suicides of vets to the number of acknowledged dead soliders in Iraq the number moves from 4000+ to 15000.

[New Dawn]

19. Very interesting, I had not read that Counterpunch article before.

[1]

26. uggg...

i will try one more time to explain myself. small words. very simple sentences.

these veteran organizations are concerned about the numbers of veterans that are committing suicide. rightfully so.

4,xxx us soldiers have died in iraq (the current war, as we know it.) some have committed suicide.

you cannot count every single veteran that ever served in the military that has committed suicide in the iraq war body count.

15,xxx is bullshit. its is a wrong figure and it will come back to bite us in the ass if you try to defend it.

that is as simple as i can get. do you understand my concern now?




why are 88 people every day committing suicide? yes. some are vets. most are not. the 88 should be our concern. yes, war = bad. but everyday more people right here in the us kill ourselves than in iraq.

[seemslikeadream]

27. You are wrong

4063 Combat deaths, NONE of these are suicides

[1]

28. ummm... ok...

it was your post that started this discussion about these 15,000 deaths... including all of the suicides...

what does this latest post of yours mean? i'm not trying to be cute or smart.

i just have no idea what you are talking about anymore.

can you explain yourself?

do it like i did. small words. simple sentences...

[seemslikeadream]

43. Rathbun didn't count people who were too old to be Gulf war vets.

“We asked the acting head of epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of Georgia, Steve Rathbun, to calculate the rate of suicide for 2004 to 2005. Rathbun adjusted the rates of suicide for age, gender and any potential error in the gathering of the raw data by the states.”


Rathbun did NOT count ALL veterans



The Pentagon has been concealing the true number of American casualties in the Iraq War.
The real number exceeds 15,000 and CBS News can prove it.



3873 Iraq War casualties

CBS News’ investigative team submits a FOIA request to the DoD asking for the numbers of suicides among all service members for the past 12 years.

DoD sends CBS News a document showing that beween 1995 and 2007, there were almost 2,200 suicides. That’s 188 last year alone. But these numbers included only “active duty” soldiers.

3,873 + 2,200 = 6073




"asking all 50 states for their suicide data, based on death records, for veterans and non-veterans, dating back to 1995. Forty-five states sent what turned out to be a mountain of information. "

Dr. Steve Rathbun is the acting head of the Epidemiology and Biostatistics Department at the University of Georgia. CBS News asked him to run a detailed analysis of the raw numbers that we obtained from state authorities for 2004 and 2005.


Rathbun didn't count people who were too old to be Gulf war vets.


In 2005, for example, in just those 45 states, there were at least 6,256 suicides among those who served in the armed forces. That’s 120 each and every week, in just one year.


3,873 + 6,256 = 10129

What you have there is the 3,873 official number + THE NUMBER OF VETERAN SUICIDES IN 45 STATES IN ONLY ONE YEAR


...

One age group stood out. Veterans aged 20 through 24, those who have served during the war on terror. They had the highest suicide rate among all veterans,

...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_ ...

[TacticalPeek]

30. You are wrong.The 4063 death figure DOES include suicides, an easily verified fact.

And it is patently ridiculous to include the death by suicide of a veteran who separated from service 63 years ago in some fantasy math about total "dead US servicemen" from the fucking Iraq war.

Surely you understand this simple fact?

[ConsAreLiars]

31. Suicides while on active duty only (or maybe only while in combat?)

Suicides after severance are definitely not included, and should be. Homicides by victims of PTSD should also be added into the death count.

[1]

32. yes, you are right. the numbers are misleading...

i'm sorry my posts were so misunderstood. the vet organizations in the original story are concerned with suicides of all veterans, as they should be, as we all should be. as we should be for every suicide.

its was the logic leap in the second article ("if we add these...") that struck me as dishonest.

i meant no disrespect to anyone posting in this thread. but if we are going to use numbers, let's make those numbers as correct as possible so they can't come back on us saying we are making shit up. that's all...


peace...

[ConsAreLiars]

33. Quite right. If we and our ideas and arguments are not based in reality, then, well,

you know the other alternative is delusion and illusion and servitude. Con men and swindlers and hucksters may lie and spin, but they can only be defeated by knowledge.

(edit trivial typo)

[seemslikeadream]

38. wrong place delete

[seemslikeadream]

40. Then start your own thread about it

[seemslikeadream]

42. Sullivan: “We call it the don’t look, don’t find policy.

2304096, on suicide rates for young vets-plus crooks and liars video
Posted by fed-up on Sat Nov-17-07 03:51 PM

I have seen a few people here ask what the suicide rate among vets from the current wars is and for those that don't have Adobe Flash 9, the video is up on Crooks and Liars

http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/articleid/8808

At least 6,256 US veterans committed suicide in 2005 — an average of 17 a day — the network reported, with veterans overall more than twice as likely to take their own lives as the rest of the general population.

While the suicide rate among the general population was 8.9 per 100,000, the level among veterans was between 18.7 and 20.8 per 100,000.

That figure rose to 22.9 to 31.9 suicides per 100,000 among veterans aged 20 to 24 — almost four times the non-veteran average for the age group.

“Those numbers clearly show an epidemic of mental health problems,” CBS quoted veterans’ rights advocate Paul Sullivan as saying.



http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/11/15/cbs-news-investigates-shocking-rate-of-veteran-suicides

Part I: Courtesy Watchdog.org

Part II: Download (1187) | Play (552) Download (1126) | Play (267) (h/t Heather)

CBS News aired the results of their 5 month investigation into veteran suicides this evening and what they found was devastating. In 2005 alone, 125 veterans committed suicide each week and of the more than 88,000 vets returning from Iraq, more than 28% of them have experienced mental health problems. CBS’ Armen Keteyian talked with Paul Sullivan of Veterans For Common Sense who had this to say about the dismal system the VA has for tracking veteran suicides;

Sullivan: “We call it the don’t look, don’t find policy. If the VA doesn’t collect the data, then they don’t have to do anything about

[seemslikeadream]

39. Then verify it

Those are COMBAT deaths

[seemslikeadream]

45. Rathbun did NOT count ALL veterans

Rathbun adjusted the rates of suicide for age, gender and any potential error
Posted by seemslikeadream on Tue Nov-20-07 04:08 PM

“We asked the acting head of epidemiology and biostatistics at the University of Georgia, Steve Rathbun, to calculate the rate of suicide for 2004 to 2005. Rathbun adjusted the rates of suicide for age, gender and any potential error in the gathering of the raw data by the states.”


Rathbun did NOT count ALL veterans



The Pentagon has been concealing the true number of American casualties in the Iraq War.
The real number exceeds 15,000 and CBS News can prove it.



3873 Iraq War casualties

CBS News’ investigative team submits a FOIA request to the DoD asking for the numbers of suicides among all service members for the past 12 years.

DoD sends CBS News a document showing that beween 1995 and 2007, there were almost 2,200 suicides. That’s 188 last year alone. But these numbers included only “active duty” soldiers.

3,873 + 2,200 = 6073




"asking all 50 states for their suicide data, based on death records, for veterans and non-veterans, dating back to 1995. Forty-five states sent what turned out to be a mountain of information. "

Dr. Steve Rathbun is the acting head of the Epidemiology and Biostatistics Department at the University of Georgia. CBS News asked him to run a detailed analysis of the raw numbers that we obtained from state authorities for 2004 and 2005.


Rathbun didn't count people who were too old to be Gulf war vets.


In 2005, for example, in just those 45 states, there were at least 6,256 suicides among those who served in the armed forces. That’s 120 each and every week, in just one year.


3,873 + 6,256 = 10129

What you have there is the 3,873 official number + THE NUMBER OF VETERAN SUICIDES IN 45 STATES IN ONLY ONE YEAR


...

One age group stood out. Veterans aged 20 through 24, those who have served during the war on terror. They had the highest suicide rate among all veterans,

...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_ ...

[ladywnch]

54. Really? because I know that soliders who die in hospitals

outside Irqi as a direct result of injuries incurred in Iraq are NOT counted as Iraq deaths.

[TacticalPeek]

56. You don't know that because it is a preposterous lie, widely spread because of threads like this etc

Why would you assert such an unsubstantiated, blatantly false idea? It dishonors the fallen.

These are the US wounded in-theater in Iraq who later died out of theater from those wounds. The ones you claim do not exist:

Date Name Where Country Srv Branch

04/11/08 German, Merlin Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Marine
03/29/08 Jordan, Jevon K. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. (Abu Jassim) Germany U.S. Army
01/27/08 Miller, Mikeal W. National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda USA U.S. Army
01/25/08 Crookston, Duncan Charles Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
11/22/07 Martin, Jonathon L. Regensburg, Germany Germany U.S. Army
11/14/07 Banks, Derek R. San Antonio, Texas USA U.S. Army National Guard
10/16/07 Brown, Micheal D. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
09/07/07 Heredia, Marisol Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
09/07/07 Jensen, Drew N. Seattle (wounded in Ba'qubah) USA U.S. Army
08/31/07 Gilbertson, Kevin A. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. (Ramadi) Germany U.S. Army
08/05/07 Link, Joey D. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Air Force
06/24/07 Byrd III, Henry G. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
06/24/07 Palmer, Eric C. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
06/18/07 Sandoval, Frank M. Tikrit (died in Palo Alto, CA) USA U.S. Army
06/14/07 Bechert, Michael A. San Antonio, Texas USA U.S. Army
06/01/07 Campos, Juan F. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
05/31/07 Bean, Matthew A. Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD USA U.S. Army
05/24/07 Caguioa, Mark R. C. National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda USA U.S. Army
05/14/07 Wright, Thomas G. enroute to Landstuhl Medical Center Intl airways U.S. Army National Guard
05/06/07 Thompson, Kevin Selly Oak Hospital, Birmingham UK United Kingdom British Army
04/02/07 Spivey, Curtis R. San Diego USA U.S. Army
03/27/07 Forshey, Curtis J. Homburg Germany U.S. Army
03/18/07 Green, Ryan P. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
03/14/07 Boyd, Joshua M. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
03/07/07 Graham, Mark W. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
02/24/07 Barnett, Jeremy D. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
02/24/07 Biggers, Ethan J. Richard L. Roudebush VA Medical Center USA U.S. Army
02/21/07 Ramirez, Angel R. Twentynine Palms, CA USA U.S. Marine
01/06/07 Johnson, Jeremiah Baghdad (south of) Germany U.S. Army
12/28/06 Blum, Aron C. San Diego (Naval Medical Center) USA U.S. Marine
12/25/06 Wilkus, Eric R. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
12/14/06 Spatol, Theodore A. Thermopolis USA U.S. Army National Guard
12/05/06 Hess, Jordan W. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
12/05/06 Miller, Marco L. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
11/13/06 Winston, Peter E. Kaiserslautern Germany U.S. Army Reserve
10/18/06 Barlow, Patrick O. San Antonio, Texas USA U.S. Army
10/13/06 Hewett, Thomas J. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army Reserve
10/11/06 Walsh, Justin T. National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda USA U.S. Marine
09/09/06 Benson, Johnathan Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Marine
09/07/06 Ramsey, David J. Spanaway, Washington USA U.S. Army
09/07/06 Montes, Luis A. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
09/02/06 Alex, Eugene Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
08/28/06 Shannon L. Squires Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
08/27/06 Hansen, Jeffrey J. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army National Guard
08/16/06 Phillips, John P. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Marine
08/05/06 Kubik, Brian J. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
07/21/06 Wallace, Matthew P. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
07/14/06 Turner Jr., Thomas B. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
07/13/06 Floyd, Al'Kaila Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
06/29/06 Clark, Ryan. J. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Arm
06/23/06 Gibbons, Devon J. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
05/27/06 Garcia, J. Adan National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda USA U.S. Army
05/25/06 Lufkin, Caleb A. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army
05/18/06 Fulks, William B. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Marine
05/14/06 Mahaffee, Shane Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army Reserve
05/12/06 Teeters, Brandon L. Ludwigshafen Germany U.S. Army
05/10/06 Carbonaro, Alessandro Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Marine
05/07/06 Frassanito, Enrico Verona Civilian Hospital, Italy Italy Italian Carabinieri
05/06/06 Palmer, Cory L. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Marine
05/06/06 Fenton, Matthew J. National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda USA U.S. Marine
04/27/06 Webber, Matthew A. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army National Guard
04/16/06 Cubert, Clinton W. Lexington, KY USA U.S. Army National Guard
03/06/06 Zanutto, Adam O. Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD USA U.S. Marine
03/01/06 Youmans, Joshua V. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army National Guard
02/21/06 Fitzgerald, Almar L. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Marine
02/12/06 Garcia Villareal, Felipe J. Washington Hospital Center, D.C. USA U.S. Army
02/07/06 Kokesh Jr., Allen D. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army National Guard
01/27/06 Lopez Lopez, Hugo R. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Marine
01/10/06 McMullen, Michael Joseph Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army National Guard
12/15/05 Boyce, Timothy R. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
12/14/05 Presley, Michael B. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Marine
12/08/05 Akers, Spencer C. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army National Guard
11/24/05 Christensen, Ryan D. Medical Univ. of Charleston, SC USA U.S. Army
11/18/05 Gaunky, Anthony Alexander "Alex" Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
11/08/05 Cashe, Alwyn C. "Al" Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
11/04/05 Boatman, Darrell W. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Marine
11/03/05 Howe, Darren D. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
10/31/05 Kading, Matthew R. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army Reserve
10/26/05 Parker, Evan S. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army Reserve
10/25/05 Robertson, Michael T. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
10/22/05 Alexander Jr., George T. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
10/12/05 Hunt Jr., Kenneth E. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Marine
10/10/05 James II, Leon G. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army
10/03/05 Pankey Jr., Larry Wayne Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army Reserve
09/20/05 Raymond, Pierre A. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army Reserve
08/28/05 Kolath, Obediah J. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
08/10/05 Benson, Michael A. Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD USA U.S. Army
08/05/05 Ball Jr., Terry W. Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD USA U.S. Marine
08/04/05 Simon, Chad J. Fitchburg, WI USA U.S. Marine Reserve
07/14/05 Hines Jr., Timothy J. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army
06/21/05 Milev, Marin Milev Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany Bulgarian Army
06/13/05 Mattek Jr., John J. Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD USA U.S. Marine
06/03/05 Mendoza, Antonio Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Marine
05/24/05 Collins, Randy D. Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD USA U.S. Army
05/22/05 Seesan, Aaron N. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
05/11/05 Schmidt III, John T. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Marine
05/10/05 Bordelon, Michael J. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
05/02/05 Little, Tommy S. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army National Guard
04/12/05 Dickens, Tyler J. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
04/09/05 LaWare, Casey M. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
03/04/05 Garceau, Seth K. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army National Guard
01/04/05 Washington, Bennie J. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
12/29/04 Nelson, Craig L. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army National Guard
12/09/04 Renehan, Kyle J. Kaiserslautern Germany U.S. Marine
12/01/04 Pena, Javier Obleas-Prado Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Marine
11/27/04 Smith, Michael A. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army National Guard
11/24/04 Nolte, Nicholas S. Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD USA U.S. Marine
11/23/04 Edinger, Benjamin C. Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD USA U.S. Marine
11/20/04 Heredia, Joseph J. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Marine
11/20/04 Welke, Joseph T. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Marine
11/19/04 Downey, Michael A. Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD USA U.S. Marine
11/07/04 McVey, Otie Joseph Beaver, WV USA U.S. Army Reserve
10/22/04 Gadsden, Jonathan E. Vet's Hospital, Tampa, FL USA U.S. Marine
10/13/04 Baker, Ronald W. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army National Guard
10/04/04 Sparks, Gina R. Fort Polk USA U.S. Army
10/03/04 Pettaway Jr., James L. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army Reserve
09/30/04 Nolan, Allen Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army Reserve
09/28/04 Prewitt, Tyler D. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
09/19/04 Adams, Brandon E. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army
08/09/04 Houghton, Andrew R. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army
08/05/04 McCune, Donald R. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army National Guard
07/21/04 Engel, Mark E. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Marine
07/15/04 Mardis Jr., Paul C. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army
07/02/04 Martin, Stephen G. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army Reserve
06/03/04 Bolding, Todd J. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Marine
05/18/04 Chaney, William D. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army National Guard
05/08/04 Holmes, James J. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army National Guard
04/22/04 Dunham, Jason L. Bethesda Naval Hosp., MD USA U.S. Marine
04/20/04 Fox, Bradley C. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
03/20/04 Vega, Michael W. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army National Guard
03/19/04 Matthews, Clint Richard "Bones" Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
03/18/04 Sutphin, Ernest Harold Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
02/04/04 Perez Garcia, Gonzalo Central Defense Hospital Spain Spanish Guardia Civil
01/29/04 Moreno, Luis A. Lakenheath Treatment Facility United Kingdom U.S. Army
01/05/04 Frist, Luke P. Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army Reserve
12/02/03 Young, Ryan C. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army
11/20/03 Tyrrell, Scott Matthew Brooke Army Med Center, TX USA U.S. Army
11/08/03 Jimenez, Linda C. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army
11/06/03 Fisher, Paul F. Homburg Hospital Germany U.S. Army National Guard
10/01/03 Ramos, Tamarra J. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army
09/16/03 Pinkston, Foster Augusta, GA USA U.S. Army National Guard
09/07/03 Thompson, Jarrett B. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army Reserve
08/17/03 Ivory, Craig S. Homberg Univ. Hospital Germany U.S. Army
08/14/03 Kirchhoff, David M. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army National Guard
08/06/03 Colunga, Zeferino E. Homburg Hospital Germany U.S. Army
07/12/03 Neusche, Joshua M. Homburg Hospital Germany U.S. Army Reserve
07/08/03 McKinley, Robert L. Homburg Hospital Germany U.S. Army
07/04/03 Coons, James Curtis Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army
06/18/03 Latham, William T. Walter Reed Medical Ctr. USA U.S. Army
06/01/03 Lambert, Jonathan W. Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Marine
05/22/03 Harvey, Leonard Hospital United Kingdom Civilian
05/22/03 Maurer, Pavel Prague Czech Republic Czech Army
05/08/03 Pritchard, Duncan Not reported United Kingdom Royal Air Force
04/24/03 Jenkins, Troy David Landstuhl Reg. Med. Ctr. Germany U.S. Army
04/22/03 Tweedie, Alexander Edinburgh Scotland British Army
03/31/03 Jeffries, William Andrew Rota Spain U.S. Army National Guard


This list of Fatalities who have died in hospitals in Germany and The United States. Some have claimed that The Department of Defense does not report these deaths, they are obviously mistaken.
Note: these deaths are included in our overall totals.



Support iCasualties
http://icasualties.org/oif/Default.aspx

They died out of theater from wounds received in theater. The source is iCasualties.org who have been more accurate than DoD.

This shit is real. Live with the facts, not the fantasies.

[ladywnch]

60. how does it dishonor the fallen to say that this government hasn't

met the lie they won't tell to serve their needs? the administration who regularly dishonors the fallen and the vets who survive.......who cuts their benefits if they have the temerity to get injured before completing their tours.........who denies their injuries in cases of traumatic head injuries or PSTD........ I did NOT say that they don't exist, I said they weren't in the total counts being reported.....I made my post to point out the games this administration is playing with the troops, NOT to deny their sacrifices.. I may have been wrong about the count but you are WAY to quick to attack people's character. A simple, 'not true, here's the link' would have been sufficient. This board was created to share info, not attack each other......save that for rethugs.

Thanks for the link.

[seemslikeadream]

55. Please help me understand and POST A LINK!

[ConsAreLiars]

29. Veterans who commit suicide are not all from this war on Iraq.

There are 24.5 million vets ( http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/resourcesforveterans/a/vets2005.htm ) and only 1.7 million of them were ordered to participate in the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan ( http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-stress18apr18,1,876442.story ). The assumption that only those who were thrown into those two murderous enterprises have killed themselves is ludicrous.

The point that suicides should be counted as casualties is valid, but throwing all vets' suicides into the Iraq count is worse than silly.

[mistertrickster]

37. True. But then how do you explain the sharp rise after the war started? nt

[dbt]

34. K & R

1. "There's something happening here. What it is ain't exactly clear."

2. "Oh, they wouldn't do that. It's just too crazy."

3. Lather, rinse, repeat.

:evilgrin:

[mistertrickster]

36. Maybe being asked to harass and at times even kill innocent women and children

has a bad effect on one's mental health?

Ya think?

[defendandprotect]

50. At the very least . . . violence breeds violence . . .

I am thinking what you're thinking, but since these soldiers can no longer actually tell us what
their personal reasons were, I don't want to pass judgment on them ...

They are now the new victims of this war and of the warmongerers and I'm sure that their families have suffered with them while they were serving and now again faced with this added sorrow.

I don't refrain, however, from passing judgment on the criminals in the White House ---
and I don't understand why they have not already been put in jails?

[mistertrickster]

61. Right, I in now way condemn soldiers for doing what they're ordered. nt.

[Echo In Light]

41. K&R

[cascadiance]

46. I've been predicting this revelation since the beginning of this year...

... and earlier. Studying the statistics of suicides from Vietnam, and the wounded/KIA ratios of the last major wars, you could see a pattern that would lead to the suicides being a LOT larger cause of death than the actual KIA in the war. And of course you are going to have governments that will try to hide this too!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3163202&mesg_id=3163233

[seemslikeadream]

48. Thanks so very much for posting calipendence

[defendandprotect]

49. That involves a lot of family members who must be very, very concerned . . .

about what happened to their own family member and trying to ensure that it doesn't happen to others.

Sy Hersh has told us that this is the most brutal military we've ever raised ---

Living thru it and responding to it would seem a nightmare ---

PLUS the untreated injuries and threats of being returned to another tour in Iraq ---

The people allowing this to happen have no conscience ---

they are torturing all of us ---

[defendandprotect]

51. Push -- recommend --

[madeline_con]

57. Has anyone considered it could be guilt based

in a lot of instances?

Maybe they're ordered to do things they can't live with once they get back to the "real world".

:shrug:

[cascadiance]

58. What about increased homicides too... Especially domestic homicides!

The movie "In the Valley of Elah" notes that there are those that come back and not only are more likely to commit suicide, but perhaps also commit homicide against their family and others as a result of PTSD and the mental health illnesses that they have.

It showed a scene at the beginning where a wife of a soldier is coming in very concerned about him brutalizing their pet and I think ultimately killing it. That person is ignored by the press who have bigger fish to fry. Then later that same reporter finds out that this woman has been killed by her husband. That is probably what we need to fear here!

It seems to understand the true toll of this war, we should also be measuring that somehow as well. With the heavy increase of suicide vs. the regular KIA, this statistic seems more and more important, as when soldiers die on the field, though tragic, it usually only affects them there. But when they come back and commit suicide and perhaps other acts of violence against others, it not only affects themselves but others at an increasing rate too.

[flashl]

59. Kick.

Good post.

[ogsbee]

62. Why doesn't Gold Star Families for Peace poll all military families of fallen soldiers?

GSFP (or some other body respected by both sides) could invite all families of fallen Iraq war soldiers to report the loss to them. This polling should include all who died within 3 mos. (or term to be decided later) of active duty, all who died from non-combat casulties, who died on classified missions, who died in overseas hospitals, etc. I believe mercenary contractors should also be included and of course foreign soldiers fighting underneath our flag. Let's get some hard facts here.

[dreamnightwind]

63. this thread is so bogus...

Wow, I'm naturally sympathetic to this issue, but you just have it way wrong.

Clearly there is a suicide problem with veterans, and many mental health problems for vets in general and especially, I imagine, from those who serve in this war.

But if SeemsLikeADream can't do a better job dealing with numbers and their actual meaning, she should let people who have such skills make threads about this issue, or at least ask for help with it so as to get it right.

One of the worst and most misleading threads I've ever seen here on DU. I seldom post, but have read many many threads here for the last 2 years or so, so I'm no newcomer, and I'm used to reading much more accurate threads than this.

It's not like no-one called you on it, you just kept choosing to hear only what you wanted to, instead of what the statistics cited could actually be applied to.

To correctly come up with a number of deaths from the current US - Iraq war, including suicides that happen back home, would be a great thing to do. I hope someone does it. I read the sourced articles and they clearly don't do this.

You'd need to get the number of suicides of veterans of THIS WAR, and subtract from that either the projected number of suicides for that many people over that length of time (I suppose you could use the length of time since an individual first served in Iraq until the date they committed suicide) at the rate of either the general population or at the rate of all veterans, I'm not sure which would be better to use, then you could add that total as deaths caused by this war. This assumes that none of these suicides are already included in the official death count. Probably a poor explanation and not entirely correct, but at least an example of what an honest analysis would look like.

I know the official count has to be too low, that our government lies to us in a million ways, etc. etc., but that doesn't justify an alternative form of inaccurate propaganda, in fact it makes us look like misinformed lunatics. The OP makes a mockery of honest analysis to sensationalize a point she wants to make.

Again, the point is a good one, the numbers and analysis are just wrong, way wrong. We can do better than this kind of post, and we should. Think, people, think.