Grain to produce 1 tank of ethanol could feed 1 person for a year.

[Avalux]

I heard that statistic this morning and it keeps rolling around in my head.

A long time ago, I made the decision to become a vegetarian partly as an act of conservation. The amount of grain needed to feed animals for human consumption could be consumed directly by people and no one would go hungry (see Diet for a Small Planet, Frances Moore Lappe).

Now we have the ethanol dilemma....

With the world heading towards an imminent food shortage, is it wise to put our apples in the ethanol basket? Why create a limited fuel source that puts driving cars in competition with eating? Where is the electric car, the hydrogen fuel cell car?

Does anyone else get pissed by the environmentally-friendly touchy-feely commercials now out by the big oil companies?

These are questions I have, while that ethanol stat keeps rolling around in my head (and I'm supposed to be working). x(

[anonymous171]

1. I've been against the use of ethanol.

Increases food prices and still produces Carbon Dioxide.

[cliffordu]

2. Yep, get ready to starve people to death to drive your car.

this is really going to show us how many we're ready to kill to drive.

I haven't had a car in years.


:patriot:

[AX10]

3. Ethanol is a scam.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

6. Is all ethanol a scam?

I've read there were some possible crops (hemp and switchgrass) which might hold some possibilities.

I can see the foolishness of attempting to use a food crop for a fuel source in this day and age, though.

[Lance_Boyle]

14. ethanol sourced from food is entirely scammy

ethanol sourced from cellulose would be much better, and there is much research into it, but for now the powers that be want us to burn food stock for fuel. It's asinine. Pisses me off equally when I see people haul 10+ "cubes" of virgin cooking oil out of Costco to pour in their diesel tanks. Use food for food, use waste for fuel. Makes perfect sense.

[dmallind]

4. minor point

heard the same thing and pretty sure it was one 25 gallon TANK of gas = enough to feed one person for a year. That said the main issue remains. Ethanol at least in its corn-based form is not a particularly good contributor to alternative energy. It requires lots of water, is not that efficient and competes with too many other uses for corn. Switchgrass may be better but IMO ethanol overall is only a bit player for the future.

[Sal Minella]

11. Yes, it was a tank of gas, but still a terribly wasteful way to power an automobile.

[Avalux]

12. thanks - I edited.

:hi:

[Rhansen]

16. many problems

I agree that corn (or any food crop) for ethanol is a bad idea but this isn't the only problem. A lot of the enrgy consumed in ethanol production comes from the need to dry the ethanol so it can be mixed with gasoline. ATF regs basically say that if the ethanol isn't denatured (unfit to drink) then there is a liquor tax imposed.
An engine will run on 100 proof ethanol but may have problems starting in a cold climate. This is easily overcome with higher spark energy (esp. when using e.f.i.).
I also find it stange that enzymes to convert fibrous biomass (corn stalks, etc...) to ethanol have been available for 5+ years but have seen little press (Novozymes/Iogen).
It makes more sense (to me) to develop a strategy for using hydrous ethanol generated from waste biomass than to do what we are doing now, even if only as a stop-gap measure until better technologies are perfected.

[SoonerPride]

5. Using FOOD to feed cars is CRIMINAL. FUCK THAT.

Electic cars.
Solar panels.
Wind turbines.

More of that and less growing food for fucking transportation.

[AZ Criminal JD]

23. Leader Obama said in Iowa he supports ethanol

Don't get off message.

[DerekJ]

7. Hydrogen is the way to go. Period.

[jmowreader]

19. Oh god, not this again...

A hydrogen car that uses a fuel cell is actually an electric car. It would be far more efficient and economical to stick batteries in the trunk and run your electric car from them.

[NuttyFluffers]

28. true, hydrogen is just an energy storage method.

but then, heck, even a wound up rubber band is an energy storage method.

i'm rather partial to the compressed air form of stored energy. it doesn't have the problems of metals disposal that batteries do, and doesn't create as easy a profit choke point in massive hydrogen production. well, technically hydrogen can be produced cheaper than that, but i definitely fear casual convertors will be harder to obtain than that new compressed air tank. that and there's the potential explosive risk, but i'm not too terribly worried about that. but who knows, they are all possibilities -- definitely far better than what we have going on now.

[IDemo]

8. this topic would perhaps do better in E/E or GD

unless we can attach a "Gate" to it, that is..

[crankychatter]

9. NAFTA is making a corn tortilla too expensive in Mexico

keep giving us hell on this one

Have you seen the Compressed Airmobile from France?

seems way cool

[AZ Criminal JD]

24. NAFTA has nothing to do with it

Ethanol is pushing the price of corn up so the green crown can feel good.

[Hannah Bell]

10. Of course it's not "wise" - for ordinary people, that is.

The folks running the government must all be really stupid, eh?

[NNN0LHI]

13. The amount of water needed to make that tank of ethanol is horrendous too

[Subdivisions]

15. Why do we need to convert food into fuel?

Why are we (or NPR, or anyone else) even having this conversation? Why are we having to take food crops and divert them to the production of fuel?

Why?

[csziggy]

17. Using food crops to feed cars is obscene

Especially when there is technology to use algae to make ethanol:

GreenFuel Technologies, of Cambridge, Massachusetts, is at the head of the pack. Founded by MIT chemist Isaac Berzin, the company has developed a process that uses algae in plastic bags to siphon carbon dioxide from the smoke-stack emissions of power plants. Algae not only reduce a plant's global warming gases, but also devour other pollutants. Some algae make starch, which can be processed into ethanol; others produce tiny droplets of oil that can be brewed into biodiesel or even jet fuel. Best of all, algae in the right conditions can double in mass within hours. While each acre of corn produces around 300 gallons (1,135 liters) of ethanol a year and an acre of soybeans around 60 gallons (227 liters) of biodiesel, each acre of algae theoretically can churn out more than 5,000 gallons (19,000 liters) of biofuel each year.
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2007/10/biofuels/biofuels-text/6

And you can grow algae on damn near anything, including sewage.

http://wireeagle.auburn.edu/news/6

http://www.ecosherpa.com/green-energy/algae-biofuel-from-sewage/

http://www.smartplanet.com/news/tech/10000078/electricity-powered-by-human-sewage.htm

[Fox Mulder]

18. I've always been against the use of ethanol for use as fuel.

I think we should be looking at solar power for our cars.

[Stinky The Clown]

20. "Does anyone else get pissed by the environmentally-friendly touchy-feely commercials now out by th"

I get insane at the sight of them.

[JCMach1]

21. switch grass

I hope will eventually come online

[Two Americas]

22. suburbanization

Suburbanization is the root cause of so many environmental and social problems, yet ironically it is suburbanites that demand that others, such as farmers, make changes so that the suburban fantasy can lurch forward.

There may never have been a time in history when so many people were so far removed from their food source as modern Americans are, and their is an abysmal ignorance about farming and food production. Most of the population is now 3-4 generations removed from the farm, and public ignorance is driving a collapse of agricultural traditions and public infrastructure.

One of the main reasons we need fuel is to transport food to the population. Suburbanization and development drive land costs up and this pushes farming farther and farther away from the population centers.

Burning crops to support the suburban lifestyle is backward and suicidal. We need fuel to get food to people, and burning the crops so that a lifestyle and development pattern that makes it difficult to get food to people can be sustained and expanded is idiocy. Rather than burning crops to support suburbia, we should burn suburbs and turn them back into farm land so food does not need to be transported so far and so that farmers are not competing with speculators and developers for arable land.

Burning crops - any sort of crops - will only make the problems worse. Only by taking agriculture out of the picture - and only an ignorant and spoiled population would ever consider doping that - does ethanol make sense. It requires seeing suburbia - a very modern, wasteful, unsustainable and destructive living pattern - as the norm around which all else must be forced to revolve.

[dger11]

26. Ignorant and spoiled population we are.

The suburban lifestyle ideal is going to be a hard one to kill, even though it won't be a realistic option for much longer.

[Nutmegger]

25. This disgusting scam is starting to catch up with us.

Corn is now how much???

This joke of "ethanol" has got to be dropped, and our public servants need to implement more practical ideas.

R&K!

[NuttyFluffers]

27. we should go to electric cars, period. far better strategy.

then the infrastructure can easily switch from better and better localized energy producers.

technically, with an electrical baseline, we can even switch to a decentralized collective of energy production as well if we all went to electric cars.

furthermore, air cars could be an interesting energy storage mechanism instead of batteries as well, thus eliminating unnecessary metals waste in our landfills.

this really isn't a hard problem in terms of tech or logic, just a problem of will and profit.

naturally ethanol means starvation for some, gas profits for others, and wars for the conflict of resources for everyone else. that's your reason why it's being pushed. the misery it can potentially create is remarkable in its profit potential.

[Two Americas]

29. public transportation

Public transportation - so rarely even mentioned in these discussions. That should be the policy of the Demicratic party in response to the energy and the pollution issues.