AK-47s are turning up more in US

[Union Label]

Alright can the gun nuts tell me again how these weapons of war are not used in crimes? :eyes:


KENNER, La. - The cake had been served and the children were jumping up and down in a big, inflatable castle when the birthday party turned to bedlam.

Clarence McGraw's jaw dropped as he saw the visitors coming, guns drawn. The screaming began.

Children ran everywhere in the courtyard of the low-income apartment complex; adults fell to the ground. Bullets flew. The killers wounded three youngsters, but for reasons police can't explain, it was 19-year-old McGraw they were after.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080326/ap_on_re_us/ak47s;_ylt=ArGAj4S3_vB6.dGs0Os9bopH2ocA

[varkam]

1. It's for those really aggressive deer!

:D

[benEzra]

13. Actually, they'd only be suitable for small deer

at relatively close range (100 yards or less), since a civilian AK is much less powerful than a typical deer rifle. It's even less powerful than a late-1800's vintage .30-30 Winchester, never mind a .270 or .30-06, and is not powerful enough to humanely kill a deer beyond 125 yards or so.

FWIW, here's a non-automatic civilian AK in legal hunting configuration, with a 4x scope and 5-round hunting magazine:



Hunting is mostly irrelevant, though, because 4 out of 5 gun owners are nonhunters (including me). FWIW, that rifle is a 2002 model; the 1994 Feinstein law didn't ban any guns.

[depakid]

2. All you have to do is run a google news search on AK-47

And see what comes up:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=wn&ned=us&q=AK-47&btnG=Search+News

[Thepricebreaker]

3. Semi Automatic - its just like the AR-15 - they both have been around for years...

[slackmaster]

4. TERRA! TERRA! TERRA!

Maybe if they kept the violent criminals who shoot up kids' birthday parties in jail this kind of thing wouldn't happen as often.

The writing in the cited article is terrible.

Semiautomatic AK variants WERE NOT BANNED by the expired federal "assault weapons" ban; models that were configured in ways that complied with the ban were sold every day the ban was in effect.

[Aristus]

5. It's Louisiana.

In Louisiana, shooting someone up with an AK-47 is just their way of saying "howdy". And it makes for moving graveside scenes:

"Ah'm sorry Ah kilt ya, t'other day. But, man! You should see the sumbitch Ah shot ya with! It's a beaut!"

:banghead:

[SteveM]

12. Sounds like you think Louisiana is the problem, not guns. Don't agree, either way.

[Redneck Socialist]

6. OMG! Machine guns everywhere!

Oh wait, not really.

But it's a lot more fun to pretend they are. Not to mention easier than writing an article that actually explains the NFA and AWB and what they did/do.

[Xithras]

7. According to your article, most of the increase happened while they were illegal.

Since 1993, the year before the ban took affect, ATF has recorded a more than sevenfold increase in 7.62x39mm guns — which includes the original Russian-made AK-47 and a variety of copycats from around the world. The number of AK-type guns rose from 1,140 in 1993 to 8,547 last year

So the number of AK's has risen 749% in 15 years. They were illegal for 11 of those 15.

Since 2005, the first full year after the ban's expiration, ATF has recorded an 11 percent increase in such tracings.

And with this bit, we learn that 11% of that increase has occurred since the ban was repealed. This means that 738% of the increase occurred while the guns were illegal to import into this country, and simply reinforces the argument of those who wanted it repealed...that the assault gun ban was a feel-good measure that did nothing to actually stop gun crime or limit criminal access to these firearms, but simply penalized and restricted law-abiding gun owners. It did nothing to prevent criminals from obtaining them.

[benEzra]

11. Civilian AK's have NEVER been illegal in the United States.

The 1994 Feinstein law didn't ban any civilian AK's; it only required minor cosmetic changes. Here's my 2002 model civilian AK, my primary target/competition rifle:


2002 model civilian AK (non-automatic), purchased in 2003



Deer hunting configuration, with 4x scope and 5-round hunting magazine:





Target competition (USPSA) and defensive configuration, with 1x collimator sight and 20-round magazine:

[Xithras]

14. Lol, jump on a technicality why don't you! You're still supporting my point.

The vast majority of the increase occurred while "AK-47's" were "illegal" under the AWB. Anti-RKBA activists want to use these numbers as a way to gain support for the reinstatement of the AWB, but the numbers show that the law was ineffective. Which is what many of us said all along. I'm fully aware that variants were on the market, which simply showed its ineffectiveness.

The OP's post is essentially saying "The numbers show that our ineffective gun ban allowed these weapons to increase by over 730%, but we need to reinstate it to get these weapons off the street!"

It's a silly argument.

[Squatch]

16. The only thing the AWB was good at was raising the prices of "pre-ban" firearms

and accessories.

[benEzra]

18. Oh, I agree the "assault weapon" bait-and-switch is silly...

it just annoys me that so many people think "civilian AK's were illegal in the '90s and were legalized in '04," when that is a fiction. They have never been illegal.

[Smith_3]

8. If you outlaw Ak47s, only outlaws will have them

So the solution of course, is to give everybody an AK47 :silly:

That will work until the next phase of the armsrace, when the outlaws will come equipped with mortars to own those little pissi AK47s

:eyes:

[SteveM]

15. Your avatar matches your reasoning...

You seem to forget that outlaws have little use for many weapons, including mortars. In fact, given the low incidence of AK/AR semi-auto use in homicides (-3%), most crims don't choose this weapon, favoring instead the hoary .38/.357 mag revolver family. I think it is because handguns are more easily concealed. What do you think?

[benEzra]

19. Even less than that, actually...

the low incidence of AK/AR semi-auto use in homicides (-3%)

Actually, it's even less than that. The 2.91% figure is for all rifles combined (including .22 rimfires, the most commonly misused caliber), bolt rifles, lever-actions, single shots, hunting style semiautos, AND all "black rifles" put together (AR's, AK's, FAL's, Kel-Tecs, Hi-Points, etc. etc.).

The AK/AR slice of that pie would be considerably smaller than 2.9%.

[benEzra]

9. I guess telling the truth would be too mundane...

Civilian AK's are neither powerful by rifle standards, nor faster firing than an ordinary-looking rifles or civilian pistols, nor "high velocity" as the author claims (they are LOW velocity rifles, muzzle velocity is only 2350 ft/sec compared to 2700+ ft/sec for typical hunting rifles).

Civilian AK's were just as legal to manufacture, import, sell, and possess 1994-2004 as they are now (I own a 2002 model); the 1994 Feinstein law didn't ban any guns.

And you'd never know it from the article, but statistically rifles are not a crime problem in this country and never have been:

2005 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,860.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,543......50.76%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....1,954......13.15%
Edged weapons.............................1,914......12.88%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,598......10.75%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................892.......6.00%
Shotguns....................................517.......3.48%
Rifles......................................442.......2.97%

2006 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%

This particular author has been peddling this line for months (Google "sedensky ak-47"). It's an attempt to shore up the MSM's pet bait-and-switch using the same bogus arguments that were discredited years ago. More people own so-called "assault weapons" than hunt (they are the most popular target rifles and defensive carbines in America), but the MSM keeps jousting at the windmill...

[iamthebandfanman]

10. somebody in my family owns one

so id hafta say thats a fair assesment ;)

[NightWatcher]

17. Laura Bush's car has killed more people than my guns

[apocalypsehow]

20. It's incredible the amount of mayhem a relatively small number of (largely) white males are

willing to impose on the rest of us with their rancid fetish for guns because of their neurotic insecurity about the size of their genitalia, and their racist longings to "push back" against the advances of women and people of color the last forty years.

[Squatch]

21. You've got everything in that post but the kitchen sink

:rofl:

[benEzra]

31. Considering that rifles account for fewer murders than shoes do...

I'd have to say this qualifies as the "thread-unrelated bash of the day".

BTW, that ringing you hear in the background is the Bulwer-Lytton people calling; they want their writing back.

[sergeiAK]

35. Think you could have included one more gross generalization? -nt

[The Straight Story]

22. Easy solution - make a law against killing others or harming them

and people will simply obey that law. Problem solved.

[NNN0LHI]

23. AK-47s Are Turning Up More in US

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iofRjmy0-AYAwghvA5oQpVki9OMwD8VL9U800

By MATT SEDENSKY – 3 hours ago

KENNER, La. (AP) — The cake had been served and the children were jumping up and down in a big, inflatable castle when the birthday party turned to bedlam.

Clarence McGraw's jaw dropped as he saw the visitors coming, guns drawn. The screaming began.

Children ran everywhere in the courtyard of the low-income apartment complex; adults fell to the ground. Bullets flew. The killers wounded three youngsters, but for reasons police can't explain, it was 19-year-old McGraw they were after.

As McGraw lay in the center of the green square, the gunmen stood over him and fired again. He was shot 15 to 20 times in all.

The Sept. 15 killing was remarkable in that it took place in the most innocent of settings — the fifth birthday of twin boys. But it was unremarkable in that one of the guns brandished was an AK-47-type rifle — a powerful, rapid-fire weapon that has long been used in Third World conflicts but is increasingly being used in American street fights.

Figures from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, obtained by The Associated Press through public records requests, show a marked increase in the number of AK-type weapons traced and entered into the agency's computer database because they had been seized or connected to a crime.

The number of such tracings rose even while the federal assault weapons ban was in effect and has continued to climb since its expiration.

[BlueCollar]

24. You need to edit your subject line

The article clearly states AK-Type...There's a significant difference between an AK-47 and an AK-Type weapon.

[benEzra]

25. This particular author has been peddling this line for months...

Google "sedensky ak-47" to see what I mean.

It's BS. Civilian AK's are neither powerful by rifle standards, nor faster firing than an ordinary-looking rifle or civilian pistol, nor "high velocity" as he claims (they are LOW velocity rifles, muzzle velocity is only 2350 ft/sec compared to 2700+ ft/sec for typical hunting rifles).

Civilian AK's were just as legal to manufacture, import, sell, and possess 1994-2004 as they are now (I own a 2002 model).

Finally, rifles are not a crime problem in this country and never have been:

2005 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,860.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,543......50.76%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....1,954......13.15%
Edged weapons.............................1,914......12.88%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,598......10.75%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................892.......6.00%
Shotguns....................................517.......3.48%
Rifles......................................442.......2.97%

2006 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%

It's an attempt to shore up the MSM's pet bait-and-switch using the same bogus arguments that were discredited years ago. More people own so-called "assault weapons" than hunt (they are the most popular target rifles and defensive carbines in America), but the MSM keeps jousting at the windmill...

[Mountainman]

28. They can fire automatic. Tell Vietnam vets they aren't dangerous.

I'm talking about military weapons not civilian. I didn't know there was a difference. Do you think the shooters in this story had civilian AK47's?

[benEzra]

29. Possession of a military (automatic) AK-47 is a 10-year Federal felony

without Federal authorization, and has been ever since they were invented.

The Title 2/Class III provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934 make it a 10-year Federal felony to possess ANY automatic or burst-mode weapon outside of police/military/government service, unless you first obtain Federal authorization (BATFE Form 4), and the number in private hands was frozen in 1986 by the McClure-Volkmer Act. If you do jump through all the red tape required to obtain a Form 4, an actual civilian-transferable pre-'86 AK-47 will cost you between $15,000 and $20,000, must be purchased from a specially licensed Class III dealer, and may not be taken out of your home state without Federal authorization--and the BATFE gets to inspect your paperwork once a year.

No, I'm sure the criminals in the story had non-automatic civilian AK lookalikes. Rifles are rarely used in violent crimes (they are damn hard to conceal on the person), but when they are, the MSM typically talks about it for months. Only ~2.9% of murders involve any type of rifle, but that's enough for the MSM to dig up plenty of scary anecdotes.

FWIW, I own a non-automatic civilian AK lookalike; it's my primary target and competition (IPSC/USPSA) rifle:



It's functionally identical to a Ruger Mini Thirty short-range deer rifle (same caliber, same rate of fire, same range of magazine capacities, same everything), but looks way cooler. :)

[SteveM]

26. AK-47 "type" gun is far less powerful than a standard deer rifle...

Further, rifles of ALL sorts are used in less than 3 percent of all homicides in the U.S. (note that AK or AR platformed rifles are only one family of weapon within the over all rifle category).

The AK/AR platformed rifle is semi-automatic. Full-autos are what troops and fighters use in Iraq, among other places. As far as the "marked increase," this family of rifle is now the LARGEST selling center-fire rifle type in the U.S. and is owned by many millions of Americans; the so-called "assault-weapons ban" banned nothing but cosmetic features; hence, the law had no discernible effect on the increased in the number of these arms.

Please be aware that the term "assault weapon" is a term of art popularized by anti-gun activists and is not widely-used by gun enthusiasts, writers and armorers. In fact, the military refers to "assault rifles," which are capable of FULL-AUTO.

BTW, I have a semi-auto rifle in my safe. It was made in 1905. I don't use it to hunt, preferring a .270 bolt-action rifle with far more power than the average chambering in an AK/AR rifle.

[Mountainman]

27. Proof that gun bans don't stop criminals from getting guns.

Do you think the shooters give a f..k about assault weapons bans?

[cnk_clark]

30. Exactly

If laws were respected then we would be the safest nation on the Earth.

These animals don't respect laws. After all murder is against the law and that didn't seem to stop them.

[benEzra]

32. .

[benEzra]

33. Check out this photo of an "AK-47"...

it's commentary on the quality of "research" that went into this article. It is a screen capture from the photos accompanying the hit piece:



"We don't actually have any AK-47's that we supposedly confiscated from criminals, so we'll ask an officer to pose with a civilian AR-15 instead and just call it an AK-47." And that may well be a department-issue carbine...

[leftofthedial]

34. and we're gonna need them too