States weigh lowering drinking age - What do you think? Please explain your answer.

[Breeze54]

States weigh lowering drinking age

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-03-20-drinkingage_N.htm

By Judy Keen, USA TODAY

Debate over lowering the drinking age is heating up in several states, fueled in part by legislators who contend that men and women who are old enough to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan are responsible enough to buy alcohol legally.

Legislation introduced in Kentucky, Wisconsin and South Carolina would lower the drinking age for military personnel only. A planned ballot initiative in Missouri would apply to everyone 18 and older. An initiative in the works in South Dakota would allow all 19- and 20-year-olds to buy low-alcohol beer.

Vermont's legislature is considering a task force to study the issue. A Minnesota bill would allow anyone 18 and older to buy alcohol in bars or restaurants, but not in liquor stores until they're 21.

MORE: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-02-29-drinking-age_N.htm">Vermont mulls lower drinking age

LOWERING THE BAR

Seven states are considering lowering the legal drinking age, including:

• Kentucky

• Missouri

• Minnesota

• South Carolina

• South Dakota

• Wisconsin

• Vermont

"There's a public interest in reopening this debate … and the idea is picking up steam" says John McCardell,
a former president of Vermont's Middlebury College who founded Choose Responsibility. The non-profit group
supports allowing 18- to 20-year-olds to drink legally after they complete an alcohol education program.

Proponents face opposition from Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD) and a potentially costly obstacle: Congress voted in 1984 to penalize states that set the drinking age below 21 with forfeiture of 10% of their federal highway funds. That threat "may prove to be a deal-breaker" for his bill, says Minnesota state Rep. Chris DeLaForest.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says laws setting the drinking age at 21 have cut traffic fatalities involving drivers ages 18-20 by 13%. "We welcome the attention to the drinking age," says MADD CEO Chuck Hurley. "The data is in fact overwhelming."

Those laws haven't ended underage drinking, says state Sen. Hinda Miller, who wants a task force to study the issue and report to Vermont's legislature next year. "I want to start talking about it," she says.

A 2007 Gallup Poll found that 77% of Americans oppose lowering the drinking age to 18, but state Rep. Fletcher Smith, sponsor of a bill that would allow military personnel 18 and older to buy alcohol in South Carolina, disagrees. "If you can take a shot on the battlefield," he says, "you ought to be able to take a shot of beer legally."

State Rep. David Floyd, whose bill would apply to Kentucky troops 18 and older, says it's "common sense to recognize as full adults the young men and women who serve in the military."

At a U.S. Senate hearing last fall on the issue, deputy transportation secretary Thomas Barrett, a retired Coast Guard vice admiral, said, "I hear this bandied about that if you are old enough to fight for your country, you are old enough to have a beer. … I don't think it's the same type of maturity."

more....

Professional Papers: Persuasion Essay on The Drinking Age
http://www.lotsofessays.com/viewpaper/1712345.html

Why the Drinking Age should be lowered
http://www.exampleessays.com/viewpaper/3144.html

Drinking Age Should Stay 21
http://www.exampleessays.com/viewpaper/19678.html

:toast:

I was allowed to drink at the age of 18, after I got the right to vote at 18 years of age and then voted to lower the drinking age to 18. ;) But I and my friends were able to get alcohol when we were under the age of 18. That didn't stop us and I doubt stops kids today. Wouldn't it be better to take the emphasis off of it, by allowing it? And if it was regulated to only in bars or restaurants, there would be more control over cutting them off. Restaurants and bars would be held liable for over serving, as they are now. Just some thoughts on the subject.

What do you think? :shrug:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. Europe has fewer binge drinkers, because

they teach self-control and mild consumption at an early age. Cutting wine with water for teens is common, and not abused.

[Breeze54]

11. That was the argument for lowering it back in 1972, besides the Vietnam War....

It does make sense that they wouldn't think it was such a big deal, if they grow up with it.

[JDPriestly]

21. Have you actually lived in Europe?

Europeans spend a much higher percentage of their lives under the influence of alcohol than do Americans. Austria is a wine drinking country -- lots of alcoholics. Germany is a beer drinking country -- lots of alcoholics. And don't even think about the Scandinavian countries. France -- liver ailments here we come. Alcoholism is extremely common in Europe. People just don't get as worried about it. It is just more an accepted aspect of life.

Heavy drinking a threat to public health in Europe –
alcohol-related liver damage a widespread disease in Europe

(Paris, 29 October 2007) Many Europeans suffer from severe liver diseases caused by excessive consumption of alcohol. Studies show that particularly harmful drinking habits are spreading from the north to all parts of Europe. This is an alarming development because alcohol-related liver damage often causes death, as experts at the United European Gastroenterology Week (UEGW) in Paris explained. The UEGW is the largest congress of its kind in Europe.

Heavy alcohol consumption considerably increases the risk of contracting liver cirrhosis or liver cancer. The results of a study conducted recently in 14 European countries demonstrate that the risk of such a disease increases in men who drink between 200 and 360 g pure ethanol a week over a longer period of time. The effect of alcohol on the liver is more marked in women due to their different metabolism. That is why their threshold is as low as 100 to 180 g a week. A litre of wine contains approx. 80 g ethanol, a litre of beer approx. 40 g.

Binge drinking increases risk
“Apart from the mere amount of alcohol, the way it is drunk also appears to play a role,“ according to Prof. Massimo Pinzani, who represents the European Association for the Study of the Liver within the Scientific Committee of the UEGW. The gastroenterologist at the University of Florence sees signs that long-term consumption of spirits very often leads to critical liver cirrhosis. Drinking habits are also important. Binge drinking for example, which indicates the rapid consumption of large amounts of alcohol at the weekend, can also lead to acute liver damage, even if weekly alcohol consumption does not exceed the risk threshold. This is because the liver’s metabolic system is thrown too much off balance because it cannot adjust to such a massive intake of alcohol in such a short time, as Prof. Massimo Pinzani explains. Up until recently, such alcohol excesses were limited mainly to northern and central European countries. However, these drinking habits are spreading to young people from all parts of Europe. The UEGW experts stress that this is a worrying development.

www.uegf.org/press/press_docs/pr_20071029_01.doc

The above article is a PDF download from that website. I'm not sure the link will work. Sorry.


Nearly a million copies of the booklet, "A Parent's Guide For the Prevention of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Other Drug Use," have been distributed at schools around the country, and the demand is still growing despite almost no publicity. It puts heavy emphasis on a National Institutes of Health study that indicates 40 percent of people who are drinking before age 15 become alcoholics at some point in their lives. It contradicts the many parents who think letting 14-year-olds drink in their basement, where they can keep an eye on them, is a responsible way to prepare them for a world soaked in alcohol. The booklet says: "'Learning how to drink' during adolescence is not a 'rite of passage' or a 'part of growing up'. When teens are allowed to drink at home, they are more likely to use alcohol and other drugs outside the home AND are at risk to develop serious behavioral and health problems related to substance use."
. . .

He said we don't have the answer to the question, but among the most relevant recent research is a study showing that the human brain is still developing as people age into their twenties, and that the last parts to be fully wired are the frontal lobes, which provide good judgment and inhibit inappropriate behavior. Other research suggests that adolescents can drink more than adults can before falling asleep, thus raising the chances of misbehavior and alcohol poisoning in the young. And there is a small study with rats that suggests alcohol during adolescence locks in that capacity to drink to excess.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36558-2005Mar15.htmlTeens who begin drinking before age 15 are five times more likely to develop alcohol dependence than those who begin drinking at age 21.


An early age of drinking onset is also associated with alcohol-related violence not only among persons under age 21 but among adults as well.

It has been estimated that over three million teenagers are out-and-out alcoholics. Several million more have a serious drinking problem that they cannot manage on their own.

Annually, more than 5,000 deaths of people under age 21 are linked to underage drinking.

http://www.focusas.com/Alcohol.html

In law school, I learned that the percentage of homicides associated with alcohol use is very high:


* There is a strong association between alcohol use and violence.

* New findings confirm a strong relationship between alcohol consumption and homicide rates, particularly among males who consume beer and spirits.

* Conversely, as Alcoholics Anonymous membership increased, homicide levels decreased.

Studies consistently show a strong link between alcohol use and violence, such as homicide. New research that looks at the relationship among drinking, Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) membership, and homicide mortality has found that AA can have a beneficial effect on alcohol-related homicide mortality rates, particularly among males who consume beer and spirits.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/52661.php

The best policy is to never drink. It is not necessary to drink alcohol. The benefits of alcohol use simply do not justify the risks -- alcoholism, an accident, damage to one's health -- even homicide.

If the drinking age is lowered to 18, 18-year-olds will do the buying and their 15-year-old buddies will join in the drinking. No, it is not worth the risk. Keep the age at 18. The higher age limit certainly doesn't cause any harm. The lower age limit might. Why take the chance. A 21-year old still has a whole life time in which to drink to his heart's content.

And by the way, the health "benefits" of drinking wine can be obtained by drinking grape juice. Alcohol is not worth it. I've known too many miserable alcoholics and seen the misery they inflict on their families to want any person to start drinking earlier.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

24. I have lived in three euro countries

from 6 weeks, to 6 months. Attended a semester of law school there. Learned to love warm beer.

[JDPriestly]

28. Please see my reply #1 for the debunking of the myth

that Europeans do not suffer from alcoholism. It is epidemic there.

[YOY]

27. I have. About 4 years of my life on and off.

and when folks started partying the the many countries I have lived in, it was about the food and company and not how much you can chug at once.

There are alchoholics everywhere and they always make parties suck.

[JDPriestly]

29. Please see my post #1. It is time to debunk the myth that

Europeans do not become alcoholics because they learn to drink young. It just is not true at all.

[YOY]

34. Yes, but they don't BINGE drink as an acceptable way to relax at any age

You cannot escape alchoholism. It's genetic as far as I'm concerned. Some people get hooked on the sauce becaue it's in their blood to do so.

The only binging I saw was in Russia...they were gross about it.

[JDPriestly]

52. My Irish ancestors stopped drinking after a terrible tragedy

in the family. We haven't had any alcoholism since. I personally don't like alcohol. It tastes about as good as vinegar or soap suds to me.

[YOY]

61. I know plenty of Irish folks who cannot/won't do that

n/t

[Breeze54]

66. I know plenty of people of all nationalities that won't do that,

including American. And I'm sure many don't drink at all, in all nationalities. ;)

[JDPriestly]

I lived in Europe many years and saw lots of binge drinking.

We lived in a wine growing area of Austria. I knew families in which the father was on a permanent binge. I taught the son of such a man piano -- or tried to teach him piano. He could not learn the simplest concepts. Alcohol is a scourge in Europe. They cover up their binge drinking. In some cases, the binge lasts nearly the the entire life. They don't consider a person an alcoholic until the person is diagnosed with a rotten liver.

[YOY]

60. If it is the "scourge of Europe" then you obviously have lived in a different continent

Because I saw no binge drinking (covered up or in the open) where I was...save Russia but they have that problem culturally ingrained to them.

Now Mongolia? Russia? Alcholism is a scourge there.

[JDPriestly]

87. Come to think of it. There is not as much drunk driving in Europe

in part thanks to their excellent system of public transportation.

[Eurobabe]

69. Question, have YOU lived in Europe?

I live here now. There are alkies everywhere, please don't generalize. I bet there are probably more undiagnosed alcoholics in the US because of the substandard health care system. Maybe European countries just catch it earlier?

I see less drunk people over here making asses of themselves than I ever saw in the US of A. :hi:

[JDPriestly]

84. I lived in Europe for many years

And during a good number of them I lived in a wine producing area of Austria. Alcoholism either in the form of excessive binge drinking or in the form of habitual drinking were the norm. The drunk is a typical character in Austrian humor and drinking songs are standard fare. Drunks used to be more common in American humor. They have been displaced in comic routines by sex, other prurient topics and race and ethnicity.

[Eurobabe]

167. Then let us just agree...

there are alkies on every square meter of the planet no doubt.

I can think of one alky in particular that should be shot to the moon.

[YOY]

25. I've always made fun of the bingers but in college they seemed to be the "everyone crowd"

Shining college moment: A drunk jaggoff who wandered in to a party that my friends and I were having started one of those annoying binge drinking "WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" screams after chugging a beer in a place where everyone else was concentrating on conversation or music.

Mid "WOOOO-" I catch him in the face with the contents of my drink and bum rush the guy out to the porch where I make him sail headfirst into the bushes. The crowd's response was fantastic.

The party continued into the small hours and we all had fun. Girlfriend at the time was very "impressed" with my machismo display as I recall...

[IronLionZion]

46. Ever been to a 21 pub crawl? The Europeans I know drink like fish. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

2. Personally, I think we should legalize and tax marijuana, first.

I haven't seen too many stoners get into nasty brawls or vomit in alleys.

[leftofcool]

4. or go home and beat their wives

[Taverner]

5. Kids should learn to drink before they learn to drive. Period.

[Warren DeMontague]

16. I'm not sure I want the legal drinking age lowered to, say, 14.

Cultural traditions in Europe notwithstanding, we have good reasons that we draw a bright line between adulthood and minors; now, whether the drinking age should be 18 instead of 21... that's a legitimate question. Certainly when I was 19 I abso-fucking-lutely thought it was ridiculous and unfair.

Later on I addressed my own issues with alcohol and witnessed what it did to other peoples' lives, including a friend killed by a drunk driver. I don't know what the answer is. I do agree that our cultural schizophrenia around things like sex or substance abuse; they are often presented as "forbidden" so kids from especially controlling backgrounds tend to go nuts once the barn door opens, that sort of thing... but I'm not sure the answer is a wholesale change to our laws, at least beyond an 18 yr. old drinking age.

Also, the fact of the matter is, unless things have changed ridiculously since my day, 18 year olds are getting drunk, drinking age or no.

[JDPriestly]

31. I hope you are joking. Please see my post #1.

It is time to debunk the myth that Europeans who learn to drink young do not become alcoholics. It just is not true.

[Taverner]

33. Alcoholism schmalcoholism - I just want people to know when its unsafe to drive

And if you drive to a party, don't know your limits, bad things can happen

[fight4my3sons]

6. Right here with you.

[Breeze54]

13. A lot of "kids" and adults got "wrecked"...

They drank and smoked pot. Maybe they still do?

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Point being?

I'm one of the 10% or so of the population that can't handle alcohol. My answer is, I don't drink it. (I don't do anything stronger than caffeine anymore, but if anything in the years I've been clean & sober I've become more convinced than ever that the drug war is a MONUMENTAL FUCKING WASTE OF MONEY, LIVES AND RESOURCES)

But, despite the fact that *I* can't drink alcohol, does that mean it shouldn't be legal? No. Prohibition was a total failure. And most people can drink responsibly, just like millions of people (like the late Carl Sagan) smoke pot and still manage to be productive members of society.

[Breeze54]

23. Point being they do it at the same time a lot or at least they did

when I was a teen. And now there are a lot of drugs kids use, that I never heard of!

I agree with Barney Frank's bill on the legalizing small amounts of hooch and lowering the drinking age.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. As I said upthread, certainly when I was 19 I thought the 21 yr. old drinking age was unfair.

I also had a friend killed by a drunk driver so I am acutely sensitive to arguments that lowering it could increase incidence of drunk driving. I also remember living in Illinois when we had the "blood border" with Wisconisn, whose drinking age was 18.

Being a parent and someone who has genetic alcohol issues in his family, I'm nervous around alcohol as a subject. But I also know 18 year olds drink no matter what the law is.

Probably I'd be in favor of lowering the drinking age but I just want to make extra sure the drunks -of all ages- stay off the road.

[Breeze54]

38. I've had over 12 friends killed in alcohol related accidents...

but not all in the car were intoxicated. Just the idiot drivers.

I think an alcohol education program might be the ticket before one
even gets a license or renews it, if they haven't attended one before.

I just don't think having a prohibitive age law stops them.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. You may be right about that. Certainly we found ways to get around the drinking age.

From a consistency standpoint, it might make sense to say, okay, if you're an adult when you're 18, you're an adult when you're 18.

I haven't given the matter a whole lot of thought, but I'm not point blank opposed to it.

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

91. Seriously. The dumbest thing I ever did stoned

was getting so into an article I was reading, and then try to figure out where I put my cigarette when it was in my hand. . . My friend had a laugh over that.

[leftofcool]

3. We send our 18 year olds off to die in a war

but we don't want them to have beer?

[Breeze54]

7. I know...they can take a bullet but not a drink? It's absurd!

IMO.

[JDPriestly]

35. We should not be killing them either way.

Kids should not drink. See my post #1. The myth that Europeans do not have a high rate of alcoholism is simply false. They have a very high rate of alcoholism. It's just that their societies are more tolerant of excessive, unhealthy drinking.

[Breeze54]

39. An 18 year old is an adult !!

They vote, fight in wars, pay taxes, sign contracts, get married, take out loans, have babies, etc.

[JDPriestly]

56. I'm 64. An 18-year-old is still a child.

[Breeze54]

59. Not all are and they are legal to do whatever, except drink, at that age.

It's silly, imho.

[apocalypsehow]

109. That is one of the dumbest statements I've ever run across on the internet.

n/t.

[conscious evolution]

113. Age has nothing to do with alcoholism

Either you are one or you are not one.
If you have the genes for it it does not matter what age you start drinking at.

[nels25]

62. That was the same argument used in the early 70's

and for the most part it carried.

Beer etc was legal for servicemen 18 and over when I entered the USN (heck there was even one topless Enlisted mens club in Orlando in 74, but I digress).

Here is when I started to see the bad part of this equation.

A. A very popular and competent communications officer was nailed by a drunk sailor and had his leg so damaged that he was forced out of the service.

B. When I was stationed at Great Lakes the law in Illinois was 21 and in Wisconsin 18 (this is around the years 79 - 83) the border area was known as blood border. Numerous service people were killed either because they went into SE Wisconsin to imbibe and got in to fatal wrecks, or were sober but killed by others who were loaded.

This continued until the law was arranged under the Reagan administration force states to go 21 or lose highway funding, big fight in Wisconsin over it (the tavern leagues went nuts against it) but the Democrat Governor a the time (Tony Earl) got it passed.

Any way that is my experience with underage or young drinking.

As for myself, did not like the taste and don't enjoy the company of drunks.

Give me a Pepsi every time.

Cheers:hi:

[Mojorabbit]

8. It was 18

when I grew up. I am not sure why they raised it to 21.

[Breeze54]

9. Me neither. I think it was in 1972, the age was lowered.

Wasn't it in the 80's they reversed that? :shrug:

[Gormy Cuss]

17. MADD and the Reagan administration.

MADD raised public awareness of drunk driving and one of the "solutions" was to raise the drinking age back to 21 to prevent young people from drinking and driving. The Feds threatened to hold highway funds hostage from any state that didn't raise the age. Of course, no one was will to raise the driving age or exempt non-driving teens from it.

I also grew up when the age was 18 and quite frankly I remember that it had the same effect that 21 does now --underage drinking was more prone to excess and majority age drinkers were more inclined to drink socially (most, not all.)

[Breeze54]

19. It figures it was Raygun (3 Strikes your Out!) - "Ketchup is a vegetable!"

:crazy:

I haven't looked at statistics but it seems to me from the news
that a lot of people WAY over 21 are busted all the time for DUI.

[JDPriestly]

42. If you don't drink, you will never get a DUI, never have drinking

related illnesses, never kill someone in a state confused by alcohol, never be an alcoholic. So why drink at all. Just how much does alcohol really enhance or improve life. --- Compared to the risks not at all. The only people who have an interest in lowering the drinking age are the companies that produce the poison that kills many Americans each year.



Alcohol-Attributable Deaths and Years of Potential Life Lost --- United States, 2001

Excessive alcohol consumption is the third leading preventable cause of death in the United States (1) and is associated with multiple adverse health consequences, including liver cirrhosis, various cancers, unintentional injuries, and violence. To analyze alcohol-related health impacts, CDC estimated the number of alcohol-attributable deaths (AADs) and years of potential life lost (YPLLs) in the United States during 2001. This report summarizes the results of that analysis, which indicated that approximately 75,766 AADs and 2.3 million YPLLs, or approximately 30 years of life lost on average per AAD, were attributable to excessive alcohol use in 2001. These results emphasize the importance of adopting effective strategies* to reduce excessive drinking, including increasing alcohol excise taxes and screening for alcohol misuse in clinical settings.

http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5337a2.htm

Alcohol kills far more Americans than the terrorists could dream of doing. Don't even think about lowering the drinking age. It should be raised -- to 95. Once a person is 95, he or she should be able to kill him or herself with anything they wish.

[Breeze54]

44. They tried prohibition once before and it didn't work.

It won't work again.

[JDPriestly]

79. I realize that. I am not suggesting prohibition.

I am suggesting two things: 1) don't lower the drinking; 2) demand that the companies that sell alcohol to us spend equal money and equal time and print and computer space on educating us about the risks we are taking when we drink. I realize that a lot of alcohol ads suggest drinking moderately. The companies that sell the alcohol need to inform people about why they should drink moderately. The information is not out there. People should not just make "choices," they should be given enough information that they can make informed choices. I would bet that a lot of people who have read my posts about alcoholism in Europe and deaths in the U.S. that are related to alcohol had never seen that information before.

Many people drink moderately and have no problem with it, but an 18-year-old who drinks is playing genetic roulette. Many people have a genetic make-up that cannot handle alcohol.

My husband drinks -- moderately and enjoys it. I have never seen him drunk in the many years we have been married. But that is due to his genetic heritage and his personal wisdom. He is actually quite lucky. But most 18-year-olds are still at an age at which they will drink to be a part of their peer group -- even if they know full well that their parents drink too much or their grandfather died of alcoholism. Actually, in my experience, most teenagers, even in their late teens have no sense of mortality or physical risk. Most people don't get a sense of those things and don't calculate them into decisions about bucking peer pressure until they are much older. So 18 is adult for some things but not for others. Maturity is an individual matter, but the vast majority of 18-year-olds will go along with their peers. They do not yet have a sense of themselves that is strong enough to make life altering, irreversible decisions like deciding to drink.

[Breeze54]

83. But kids younger than 18 are already drinking.

Education is a great idea and I think it should be mandatory.
They used to have programs (DARE) in the schools until LNCB
was enacted and then the funding for those programs dried up,
to save Math and Science classes and teachers jobs. :eyes:

[JDPriestly]

85. Note that the big liquor companies generally support the Republican Party.

That aloone is enough to turn me off to alcohol.

[Breeze54]

88. Then why would you want THEM educating people about alcohol consumption?

:shrug:

That would be like the fox guarding the hen house, wouldn't it?

I mean look at Lindsey Lohan. Some vodka company was going to throw
her a 21st birthday party the day after she got out of rehab!! :crazy:

[JDPriestly]

89. You are probably right. But it isn't fair for the taxpayers to have

to foot the bill.

[Breeze54]

95. There should be an equal contribution, maybe?

I'm not sure but plenty of alcohol companies advertise to college age and younger all the time.

Just look at some beer company ads and hard liquor. I mean, they have it in "fruit flavors" with cartoon characters! :eyes:

[JDPriestly]

103. Thank you. You make a good point.

It is just like the cigarette ads.

[Breeze54]

108. But either way, under 18 will still be drinking illegally. 18 yr olds are legal adults.

And I'm pretty sure that there are advertising laws against cigarette and alcohol marketing/targeting to children.
But cigarette's are also legal for 18 year olds and kids of all ages see all the advertisements all the time.

[JDPriestly]

99. It is very interesting. I have posted a lot of solid statistical

medical and sociological information about alcohol abuse on this thread. Many people have responded to my posts, but only a couple have responded or acknowledged the content of the information I posted. Most of the posts are emotional reactions, mostly defensive about the use of alcohol or the rights of 18-year olds.

Almost no one has acknowledged the overwhelming and irrefutable evidence about the dangers of alcohol use/abuse (you never know whether an 18-year-old will just use or abuse alcohol). If I had posted solid information, scientific studies on environmental issues or issues having to do with other health matters or something political, people would have responded to the information in my posts. They would not have responded with empty emotional chatter.

We need to raise the level of discussion about alcohol to one that is more fact-oriented, more focused on the reality of the effects of alcohol and the problem of alcohol abuse in our society. The desire to lower the drinking age does not arise from any wish to improve the lives of 18-years-olds. It arises from the desire of the manufacturers of alcoholic beverages to broaden their markets and to add to the numbers of us who are addicted to their product.

Maybe DUers seem to believe that people who begin to use addictive products in their teens while their bodies are still growing are no more susceptible to serious addiction than people who begin using the addictive products later, but I can assure you that the liquor companies have done lots of research on this issue. They know full well that alcohol is a highly addictive drug for a good portion of the population -- especially for those who are insecure and prone to succumb to peer pressure. They know that by lowering the drinking age, they can entrap even more young people into the misery of alcoholism. In so doing, they will enrich themselves so who cares about the wasted, useless lives of those who become addicted?

[apocalypsehow]

112. No, what you have done is post dubious piffle from interested parties and pretended it's Holy Writ

handed down from on high.

But let's take your "statistical information" at face value and accept it as factual.

So what? There are literally thousands of things we could outlaw to keep people from ruining their own lives, from T-bone steaks to Britney Spears CD's. But in a society that is (A) relatively free and (B) has a cultural tradition of alcohol consumption inherited from thousands of years of its inhabitant's ancestors and (C) where a majority of that same population enjoys alcohol consumption in more or less amounts, all this babbling about "statistical information" is simply silly.

Besides which, your self-righteous tone is quite grating on progressive ears: you really should go play Carry Nation someplace else.

[JDPriestly]

173. i have not suggested keeping people over 18 from making

their own decisions about drinking. All I'm saying is that we don't need to lower the drinking age. Leave it as it is. It's fine now. Thus far, the higher drinking age has not been preventing kids who want to drink from drinking.

[New Dawn]

123. Prohibition currently exists for adults under the age of 21.

It does not stop the ones who actually want to drink from drinking. It was the same way with the original form of prohibition as well.

[Breeze54]

124. Good point and well stated.

Why didn't I say that like that? :P

[Hippo_Tron]

148. Abstinence would be great if it worked

No matter how much we educate about the potential hazards, people under 21 and even people under 18 are still going to drink. So shouldn't we also educate them about how to stay relatively safe if they do decide to give into temptation?

[TooBigaTent]

47. The vehemence of your responses could make one think that one has personal issues

with the issue. What works for some/one may not be the best for most.

Alcohol is a much smaller threat to our health than many other food-related issues. Some can handle it and some cannot. And while there is probably some connection between onset-age and problems, they would be offset if the US had a sane policy.

As everything, it comes down to how the individual handles the situation.

[JDPriestly]

70. Yes, I have had two alcoholic bosses -- they made me miserable.

On top of that, I mentioned that there was a terrible tragedy in my family -- in the early 1800s. I do not want to describe it here. It was really awful. My family has sworn off the stuff ever since. Tragedies of the kind that occurred to my ancestors are not unusual. The family history and objective evidence shows that it was alcohol related. Such events cause repercussions for generations. I respect each person's right to choose in this area. But from the perspective of 64-years-old, I believe that 18-year-olds are not yet ready to make decisions about drinking alcohol for themselves. The results of drinking can be so tragic.

[Breeze54]

73. They already are making those decisions.

:eyes:

[JDPriestly]

93. Another thing that might influence me is the fact that

I was once hit by a drunk driver. I had my two small children in the back seat of the car. The only thing that saved us from yet another alcohol related tragedy in our family was that I was driving very slowly. It happened in Austria The drunk driver was swerving all over the road. I was able to veer quickly to my right and get out of the way. I nearly went into a ditch. The drunk kept on going. How did I know he was drunk? No one else would drive like that.

[Breeze54]

97. I was almost killed by a drunk driver and he was 48 yrs. old!!!

And my oldest son, 4 yrs. old at the time, was sitting in the back seat. The van pushed
the engine in my VW under his car seat and nearly put me through the windshield!! I was
laid up for months and couldn't work or take care of my kids without help and I was in a
neck brace for a very long time with whiplash injuries which plague me to this day but
I still drink. Many times, it's a cheaper muscle relaxer a than a pill and a Dr's visit.

[JDPriestly]

102. If you read my posts, you will see that there is some evidence

that the earlier a person who is prone genetically toward alcoholism begins to drink, the more likely that person will become an alcoholic. I heard this first during a talk by a probation officer when I was taking paralegal courses many years ago. This is one of those facts that is well known among experts on the topic, but not generally discussed among the rest of us.

[Breeze54]

106. Yes but you keep avoiding the FACT that under 18 are already drinking.

Maybe they are already predisposed to drinking anyway?

I don't know but I did read your posts.

Why else would I be responding? :shrug:

Read the post at the bottom 'Camp Harachuca" (SP?)

[JDPriestly]

172. Making it legal to drink at 18 won't stop under-18s from drinking.

It will just make it easier for the kid who is barely 18 to buy alcohol for his or her buddies under 18. They are already doing it, why encourage more of it by lowering the drinking age.

[Gormy Cuss]

50. I suppose raising the age to 95 wouldn't exactly be the same as Prohibition, but we tried the latter

and it failed. It may have reduced the number of people drinking although I've never read any such analysis so that's just a guess. It did effect a change in the way people procured alcohol and fueled the underground economy, but it didn't stop consumption nor did it eliminate the problem of excessive consumption.

[Breeze54]

55. But it did increase bootlegging and speak easy's and many

got rich that way, including the Kennedy's.

[JDPriestly]

64. I was joking a bit. As you can see, I really don't see the point

in alcohol. But then, as I said, it tastes awful to me, so I realize that my perspective is uncommon. Still, I do not think the drinking age should be lowered. I do not want to elaborate, but the tragedy in my family occurred in the early 1800s. It was so horrible that it is still indelibly seared onto the brains of the descendants of the individuals involved.

Not drinking has to be an individual choice, of course, but when I have the opportunity, I encourage people to choose not to drink at all. It really is not worth it. We do not need to lower the drinking age. It will result in tragedies we do not need.

[Gormy Cuss]

78. I assumed that you were joking about age 95.

I'd be happy to see our culture evolve away from thinking drunkenness is an acceptable state or that drinking for the sake of getting drunk is ever a good thing. I don't think that flat out bans are helpful however unless we allow substitutes because there seems to be ample evidence of even ancient cultures incorporating mood altering substances as part of their daily lives.

[Warpy]

10. I would like to see the lowest drinking age for beer and wine

abolished. I would like to see the driving age raised to 18.

I know from personal experience that getting drunk and riding a bicycle don't mix. It's impossible to kid yourself that you drive better drunk when you're covered with road rash from falling off a bike.

I discovered drunkenness at 13. I have never driven drunk.

[Breeze54]

14. But a lot of kids have jobs they need to get to....

Maybe an alcohol education program would be better before they get a license?

There are already restrictions on under 21 yr. old driver's, not to mention the higher insurance they pay.

[nels25]

68. Raising the driving age

can not talk for everyone.

But both of my children did not get their license to drive until 19-20 (by their choice).

I am not sure but to my way of looking at things, I believe it has worked out better for both of them that way.

They are very careful and responsible drivers.

Just my observations.:hi:

[Firespirit]

72. I went to college at 16

Lived several hours from my parents' home. Supported myself; I can say honestly that I paid for everything in my college education, including tuition, books, and living expenses. I went to college in the Southeast and public transit was not poor, it was NONEXISTENT. My car made it possible for me to live independently.

Why would you have denied me this opportunity?

[pnwmom]

12. There is some evidence that binge drinking has increased as a result of the

higher age requirement -- at least among college students.

Knowing that alcohol will not be served at on-campus social functions, many students drink to get loaded BEFORE they go to a party. Then they might go to an off-campus party and drink even more.

When I was in college, the drinking age was 18, which meant that the faculty could have wine and cheese parties and other similar events with the students, and model appropriate drinking behavior. Now students just watch each other binge.

[Breeze54]

15. Yup! And they hold on campus parties and get shitfaced...although some

do have designated drivers. My son has served as one at one such party not long ago.

[TooBigaTent]

41. It also happens at most high school functions. With the chaperones watchful

at the dance/game/concert, the kids get loaded before so that they can "have a good time."

[pnwmom]

119. At my teens' schools, they don't allow kids inside for social events

if they appear to have been drinking or smell of alcohol.

Obviously, that's an imperfect system, but it might be better than nothing.

[Breeze54]

125. That's why a lot of kids don't go to dances anymore...

I think they've almost eliminated dances in my area schools due to low attendance.

[pnwmom]

128. That's a shame. We don't seem to have that problem here. n/t

[Breeze54]

130. It may also be budget cuts but I remember "back in the day"

when I was still in HS, before breathalysers, we'd go to the dances as a group but have a 'few' before the dance and nobody really checked. But now, I'm guessing kids are still doing the same thing but avoiding the dances so as not to be detected. They have house parties instead which isn't good either.

[pnwmom]

133. Parents having houseparties for high school kids --

I don't understand them.

It's a dumb way to try to buy your kids' popularity.

[Breeze54]

137. Some do, I suppose, but not all. Parents do go on vacation or

out of town, at times and then you know what can happen.

I wouldn't put all the blame on the parents though.

Didn't you ever throw a house party when your parents were out of town?

I did! :P

[pnwmom]

149. I'm only criticizing the parents who do it on purpose.

I know that things happen that parents can't control.

But as for me, I never remember both my parents being out of town at once. But even if they had been, I was too much of a goody-goody -- typical oldest kid.

[Breeze54]

151. I know what you meant and I don't think those parents are very smart at all but

just looking back on my own history, being the youngest of seven. My parents went to NYC one week
for the first trip in a very long time and my sister was "in charge" but not for long! :rofl:
I invited a few friends over and word got around and before I knew what was happening, the whole
house was full of kids from my school and we were dancing and some were drinking and some were
smoking pot and some weren't doing anything like that but I'm just saying that that stuff happens.
I was never a 'goody two shoes' :P but you might be my older sister! But no one got hurt, in an accident or arrested. ;)

[pnwmom]

156. Did your poor sister go nuts?

I would have been like the fish in The Cat in the Hat -- yelling my head off, to no avail.

And did your parents ever find out?

You: :party:


Me: :wow:


And: :scared:


And: :mad:


Then, when our parents came home:


:nuke:

[Breeze54]

161. No but my brother did. We blew a fuse in his stereo.

:P

I don't recall my parents being pissed off. Maybe they didn't tell on me. :shrug:

I just remember my brother being mad about his stereo and telling me I had 30 minutes

to clear everyone out. They were gone in that approx. time frame and I went with them! :P

Hey, we didn't destroy the place and it was fun, although I remember being a little nervous

having so many people there. Hey, it was my second party! I was 16 yrs. old. The first one

I had a band play! I was only 13 and my parents were there! I guess the same kids remembered

that one and the cops did arrive at that one!! :rofl: If you knew my strict parents, you'd

have laughed too and we were all parochial school kids at that first birthday party in 8th grade. ;)

[Quantess]

162. Fine, except, most high school students are younger than 18.

The argument is whether to lower the drinking age from 21.

[onehandle]

20. I'll say it again. Raise the age of active duty service people to 21.

Let them sign up at 18, but keep them out of war zones until they're 21.

Keep the drinking age 21.

[Breeze54]

26. That'll never happen. They can brainwash them more easily, the younger thay are...

If a person can sign a contract at 18 and vote, then they should be allowed full rights as a citizen, imho.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

51. no, to 35.

and make sure that all CEOs are the first to be drafted.

[Breeze54]

57. And all rethugs and those that support their call for war!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Zynx]

138. Exactly. I drank underage a few times. It hurt my grades and that's all it did.

Now that I am over 21, I enjoy a glass of Port once in a while. That's fine by me.

[RB TexLa]

22. Just do like Louisiana with the drinking age and cockfighting law, ignore them

There are thousands of laws on the books that law enforcement ignores, we added the cockfighting one to that list this year.

[TooBigaTent]

32. Mentioned elsewhere, but the puritanical social mores of the US have done nothing

(in this case) but produce a culture of illicit drinking by young people. They do not drink to enjoy it, or gte a little buzz on, or enhance a meal. They drink to get falling-down drunk. And they better drink as much and as fast as possible before they get caught.

Contrast the US with Europe where children and young people are taught that enjoying wine is a PART of social life - not the only objective. They have nowhere near the problem with binge- and problem-drinking that we do.

The voting or military service reason is not legitimate, IMO. The objective truth of the world-wide experience is.

[Zywiec]

36. 1, 2, and 8 n/t

[drmeow]

75. same here. n/t

[guitar man]

37. either lower the drinking age

or raise the enlistment age, either one will do, but it makes no sense to be old enough to take a bullet for your country and not be able to take a drink for yourself.

[morgan2]

40. a lot of the thrill of drinking for kids

is that its something their not supposed to do. I would definitely support lowering the drinking age, but keeping the harsher drinking and driving laws for people below 21.

[ThomWV]

45. Raise the age to 85 or higher; there is no aspect of your life that is improved by alcohol

Period.

[apocalypsehow]

105. We already tried something like that once, genius - and it made Al Capone a rich man. Get real.

:thumbsdown:

[Breeze54]

48. So far, legally being able to vote and fight at 18 are winning the poll.

My, we do have some liberals on DU after all! ;)

[Firespirit]

49. This is fine by me

I also advocate a nationwide driving age of 16. It's ridiculous that a kid can get a license in one state, but lose it if their family moved to a state with a higher driving age. I went to college, away from home, at 16... fortunately owning a car and driving was allowed... but if it hadn't been, it would have been incredibly idiotic.

I'd also support lowering the voting age to 16. There's nothing that would prohibit it. The 26th Amendment doesn't stop a federal law from setting the voting age *under* 18, just over.

[Breeze54]

53. Some states allow 17 year olds to vote.

At least 10 states including Ohio allow 17-year-olds to vote in primary elections.

The Hartford Courant

Op Ed: Let 17-Year-Olds Vote In Primaries

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:Tw7FR4TwpfMJ:www.sots.ct.gov/releases/2007/04-11-07OpEdCourant17OldVoters.pdf+some+states+allow+17+year+olds+to+vote&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a

In 1965, you had to be 21 years old to vote. Congress lowered the age to 18 in 1971 because of the
Vietnam War: Lawmakers thought it was unfair that someone could serve our nation in combat but
not have the right to vote in elections that ultimately determine the nation's fate. Today, as our
country is engaged in another war, we believe it's time to once again lower the voting age.

[Firespirit]

65. Good for them

If the voting age had been lower during 2000, there would have been at least 1 more vote for Gore -- mine. Old enough to drive, to live away from home, support myself financially on scholarship money... but not vote. Sheesh.

My rationale for lowering the drinking age is this... You can smoke at 18, you can buy tobacco, which is entirely negative and harmful. (Sorry smokers, it's true.) Alcohol in moderation can actually have health benefits, so why restrict it. And as for the DUI aspect... well, you shouldn't drive after ODing on Robitussin either. The act of imbibing alcohol is not inherently harmful; it's doing it to excess and/or getting in situations where you put other people's lives at risk (e.g. driving) that's the problem.

[Breeze54]

71. You were/are a smart kid!

I agree with your reasoning. It's a problem of excesses, not necessarily age.
I've seen plenty of old farts in the local bars, drinking until the cows come
home and then they head for the parking lot...

If I even go out to a pub or tavern, I have a two drink limit.

I think more education would be key and more self control at all ages.

[Firespirit]

82. Thanks

I've been intoxicated before... but never inclined to drive. I stay away from the wheel if I've even had one drink, because I am a small person and I don't know how much actually starts to cloud my judgment. Probably the stupidest driving decision I ever made was to drive from Knoxville TN to the Gulf Coast with an apartment's worth of furniture, pass through a major thunderstorm, and leave at a time that forced me to arrive there at 3:30 a.m. It went fine, but in retrospect I think it was ill-advised. Alcohol wasn't a factor; caffeine was.

But that's the point... I know alcohol is a depressant, and I'm not sure everyone gets that. I think there's a misconception about it because it tends to make people social, chatty, and wild. There needs to be better information about the biology of it and what it actually is.

[Breeze54]

86. It's an uninhibitor.

There's plenty of information around about it's effects, etc. They used to teach against it and other drugs
in DARE classes but I think that funding dried up when bush enacted LNCB. My youngest son benefited from
DARE classes, as did many of his friends. Some people think the program sucked for various reasons but I
know it educated my son to the warnings about excessive drinking and using drugs, etc. and he doesn't
use either. He's a confirmed teetotaler. ;)

[cloudythescribbler]

54. Reform is always difficult, & takes a lot of struggle -- this reform NOT worth progressives' time...

There are arguments (libertarian, public safety, etc) on both sides but one thing is clear:

It is all-but-inconceivable that large numbers of authentic progressives (most all of us support at least decriminalization if not legalization of cannabis, including for industrial uses) rallying in large numbers to uphold continuing the ban on alcohol for those under 21. Personally, I am not as strongly opposed to the current higher drinking age requirement than I would guess is the case with at least a plurality of progressives.

HOWEVER, since the only side of this struggle likely to be considered 'politically correct' is the more libertarian one, opposing government regulations (which are in principle in contradiction with what is allowed to 18 year olds), I would stand not so much against lowering the drinking age per se, as against progressives investing a lot of time and energy in this issue, possibly in the hopes of gaining a lot of 'youthful supporters'.
There are so many larger and smaller urgent issues, from the evisceration of New Orleans to the issues of McGlobalization and imperialism, as well as the Greenhouse Effect for the struggle to invest much energy in this very highly debatable issue.

Obviously, as long as the (in my view extremely objectionable on progressive federalism grounds) national legislation that cuts significant monies to states that try to lower the drinking age, it isn't going to happen. Little-known fact: in Alaska, it was legal to own up to two ounces of marijuana for personal consumption -- and I am not aware of many people killed by drivers because they were STONED as distinct from DRUNK -- and that reasonable law, which was working fine, was cut off at the knees in the Reagan era by similar legislation using highway funds to armtwist states into forgoing their Constitutional prerogatives on cannabis.

As far as the debates going on within the states, there are many broad popular groups (eg opposed to environmental regulation or gay marriage) that will need to be taken on. I do NOT think that investing movement time and money in trying to take on MADD is strategically a good idea, even though many progressives "on principle" would consider it a cop-out position.

I would add that a number of worthwhile issues are actually or de facto de-emphasized in terms of effective progressive action, NOT AT ALL AUTHENTICALLY BECAUSE authentic progressive interests are not promoted, but because INAUTHENTIC 'red-headed league' type progressives don't want to confront such problems as underground repression (ie themselves and their own underground privileged status). And these choruses of protestation, being in fact speaking on behalf of the 'general interests of society as a whole' (ie the agenda of the elite and of "don't judge hate" as against, eg EFFECTIVELY ADDRESSING THE GREENHOUSE EFFECT) of course necessarily get their way, ostensibly on progressive grounds.

Let's see if those interests are as passionate and united on the issue of the nonstrategicness of taking up lowering the drinking age as they are in promoting political repression (NECESSARILY under other guises).

[Breeze54]

63. We can keep our eye on all the topics at the same time, I think.

I'm able to keep informed and discuss many issue's at the same time.

Why do people keep using this argument when anything besides Iraq or Katrina victims is raised?

It makes no sense to me.

[bdamomma]

58. just more dead kids, on our nations highways.

[Breeze54]

76. Are you sure? Do you have the stats?

More dead 18 to 21 year olds from drunk driving?

[bdamomma]

81. breeze54, no I don't have any back up for my comment.

but lowering the drinking age will just increase the death rate of these young people. Not related but they are thinking lowering the age of these youg people how about giving them the funds to go to College. Such priorities huh?

[Breeze54]

92. But they're already drinking before they are 18....

and that age group already pays the highest insurance premiums.

I don't see how one relates to the other except that college kids already drink a lot
on campus anyway, according to reports and what about Spring Breakers and binging?

[Quantess]

67. Drinking age breeds contempt for the law.

Anyone 18 to 20 years old who wants alcohol will get it, with more or less difficulty. The law is seen as an annoying, unfair, hindrance. Anyone 18 to 20 who chooses not to drink has reasons other than the law.

Underage drinking is probably the most commonly broken law, because 18 to 20 year olds don't respect it. Breaking other laws seems less serious once you've broken that law.

By the way, OP, you have too many choices on your poll.

[Breeze54]

77. Oh well, more choices seemed like a good idea at the time.

And I agree with the rest of your post. If they want it, they'll get it.

And I think some may see it as a challenge, an "Oh yeah? Watch me on Spring break!"

My son is 19, been driving for a year and doesn't drink.

A lot of his friends don't drink all the time either.

They have on occasion though, as far as I know. Once under adult supervision
at a football party and once at a college party with no supervision, AFAIK.

[Quantess]

90. Many teenagers don't drink.

Ask them why not, and they won't say "because it's against the law". Not if they're honest.

[Breeze54]

98. They don't drink for a lot of reasons.

They don't like the taste, they have seen alcoholism in their family, they have other things
of more interest to do, they aren't social beings, etc. I doubt the law is the reason at all.

[Quantess]

159. An 18, 19, or 20 year old will have other valid reasons to refuse alcohol.

A busy schedule is probably the main reason.
Other honest reasons: Health; I don't like the taste of alcohol; I don't like the feeling of alcohol; Alcoholism runs in the family; I've heard it causes brain damage; It's bad for you; I'm pregnant; It's against my religion; None of my friends drink; My family will disown me; etc, etc...

No self-respecting 18 to 20 year old would say "I won't try alcohol now, but I want to, and when I turn 21 I will start drinking alcohol for the first time because I won't be breaking the law."

[backscatter712]

74. If you're old enough to vote and go to war, you're old enough to drink.

The .gov's policies on drinking age really are ham-handed, authoritarian and retarded.

[El Pinko]

80. Other - raise the age of military service and voting to 21 - raise age for DL's to 21, too.

I think 18 is still a very impressionable age when people make rash decisions, and I don't think we should be using 18-year old boys and girls for cannon fodder unless we are really strapped.

Of course the military loves them that age because their heads full of mush are still so malleable, and they will do things that a true adult might not because of deeper understanding, experience, empathy and compassion.

[malaise]

94. I drank a sip of beer from my dad regularly as a kid

On Sundays once we turned 13, we were introduced to a glass of wine at Sunday dinner or at Christmas. Once we completed high school we were allowed to drink with the adults. None of us has a drinking problem.

I think when things are banned, they are way more tempting. I have never seen Caribbean teenagers binge drinking like young Americans. That is not to say that we don't have youngsters with drinking problems, but youngsters here don't have to hide to drink.

[NeedleCast]

96. Fort Hauchuca, Arizona

I was stationed there for my AIT training back in early 1998. The post commander had decreed that if you were old enough to join the military, you were old enough to have a drink, so on post, anyone 18 and up could drink at the on-post bars and night clubs. I was already over 21, so it didn't matter for me, but I observed some interesting things.

In general the fuck-ups, regardless of their age, were the ones who went out, got hammered and caused a problem. Didn't matter if they were 18 or 23 or 35...the people in our battalion who were frequently in trouble for other disciplinary issues were also the ones who had alcohol related issues. I hung around socially with about half my platoon of 40-ish troops and I'd say 90% of them were under 21. Almost all of them drank on post from time to time, but only two of them consistently had problems. The two who were bad were so bad that I remember their names a decade later (Bricka and Hunter) because of the number of times we had to go scrape them off the floor of the club, or off the sidewalk, or out of the street, where they had passed out.

I know we're dealing with the microcosm of my world at the time, but I'd be willing to bet that those who can drink responsibly at age 21 would also drink responsibly at age 18 and that people who are problem drinkers at age 21 would also be problem drinkers at age 18.

[mdmc]

100. Human beings have the right to pursue happiness

End Prohibition

[defendandprotect]

101. Saying "yes" but have mixed feelings about it ---

In NYC where people take public transportation/cabs --- this is fine --

In suburbs, I have a concern about driving --- so I'd want to ensure that we have rides for anyone drinking.

PLUS this reinfects our colleges where we are trying to get rid of the binge drinking doing harm to so many students ....

and, on campuses and elsewhere, when the age goes down to 18 . . . too often they will help a 14 or 15 year old get booze.

So -- mixed feeling but think 21 is ridiculous!!!

And, I think, like many other prohibitions, it's making booze more important in the lives of the young than it should be!!!

THAT's my main point, actually ---

[NeedleCast]

104. Been my Experience

that those who are going to binge drink at age 21 are just as likely to do it at age 18 and those who are not going to binge drink at 21 probably wouldn't do it at 18 either.

[defendandprotect]

122. Right -- what I'm saying is that "prohibition" makes booze a bigger issue . . .

in the lives of young people than it might ordinarily be --
and that's true whether you're 18 or 21 ---

Or 16 --- IMO

[Breeze54]

126. or 47 or 55 or .....

As soon as people are told they can't do something, you can bet

many will do it or try. Isn't that human nature? :shrug:

Good post! ;)

[apocalypsehow]

107. Whatever the draft age is.

n/t.

[Feron]

110. The 21 drinking age law is stupid.

Someone old enough to be a legal adult should have all of the privileges and responsiblities of one.

What's even more bizarre is that you can buy cigarettes legally as an 18 yr old, but not booze. Personally I'd rather have someone drink a beer than smoke a cigarette. But hey if you want to gamble, drink, or smoke that is the choices you'll have as a adult.

Plus I think that lowering the drinking age will help reduce binging. The whole forbidden fruit thing if you will. Personally alcohol lost a lot of its allure when I turned that magical age.

I definitely support increasing the penalities and enforcing those penalities for people that drink and endanger others.

Sadly there is no law that will prevent addiction. If you have the predispostion for the disease, then it doesn't matter when you start drinking.

[Breeze54]

111. Under 21 can't gamble in casino's though but I'm not sure

what the laws are in each state as far as buying lottery tickets. :shrug:

I agree with your post.

[lightningandsnow]

114. At age 18,

You can vote, drive, work full-time, fight in a war, pay taxes, refuse medical treatment, sign a will, work in a strip club, and get married.

But you can't drink. What the hell?

I say lower the drinking age.

[dysfunctional press]

115. it's time to thin the herd- lower it to 16.

zpg isn't working like it should- we need to give it some help.

[Breeze54]

116. * already has by 1.4 M but I have to ask....

What is zpg? :shrug:

[dysfunctional press]

117. zero-population growth.

too many people on too small a planet.

[Breeze54]

118. Yeah, I've read about them but I think they changed their name.

But I gottcha. ;)

[onethatcares]

120. old enough to die, old enough to buy.

this is the same shit we went with during VietNam. After the war, the laws changed back to 21.

[Breeze54]

127. Good slogan!

Yup, Raygun was right in there criminalizing every thing under the sun.

Raygun, what a :puke:

[OhioChick]

132. You got it. n/t

[New Dawn]

121. I think that ALL adults should be able to buy alcohol!

And I, personally, do not even drink.

[They Live 1988]

129. I don't think it is any of the government's business

Why should drinking or smoking what you want be a crime? Where is the crime? If they injure someone or steal while under the influence, that's a crime and it should be vigorously punished. But to criminalize things that are not hurting anyone else - that is not something I think the government should be involved with. Kids should have role models and parents to persuade them to not drink and smoke substances and teach them that there are severe consequences to their health etc if they choose to partake and severe legal consequences of hurting or stealing while under the influence; that's a better solution than criminalizing everything outright and making the conservatives happy with their social mandates and the billions that helps fund the DEA and ATF; billions that could be used for necessary government functions like fixing the bridge near my neighborhood that looks like it is about to collapse.

[Breeze54]

131. The insurance companies have a lot of "input" on these matters, I think.

And we all know they charge 21 and under a LOT of insurance $$ to even own a car

and be able to drive it. There are laws in place to punish those that drive under

the influence, you're right. But they seem to be exacting laws (prohibition) on

legal adults just because of their age and that seems unfair to me too. You made

some good points. Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Zynx]

136. Alcoholism does present issues that are of public concern.

This isn't a nanny state issue at all. Drunks do a lot of damage to innocent lives. That is a simple fact. It is an issue that warrants state attention.

[Breeze54]

139. States already have laws about DUI's; etc.

This is a 'nanny state' law. The people being excluded are legal adults in every respect except this one.

[Zynx]

141. I am glad I am still barely over 21 so I can say that law did not effect me in the slightest.

Alcohol does nothing for you and people are not truly mature at 18. I also think allowing teenagers to drive at 16 has more to do with economic necessity than sound policy. Further, I think the age of enlistment should be raised a good solid seven years. 18 year olds are not ready for that sort of thing. I was 18 four years ago and I know I was not as mature at that point as I am now.

[Breeze54]

146. Maybe not all but this is about legalities. At 18, all are legal to vote, marry,

sign contracts, have babies, sign a lease, take out a loan, etc.

It's not a matter of maturity and when the drinking age was 18 legally,

nothing changed for years. No big waves of crime, accidents, etc.

Raygun was in bed with the insurance companies. It's about $$, not the drinking.

That's why you pay a helluva lot more for car insurance, than I do.

I've known many mature 18 yr olds and do now.

[defendandprotect]

147. Agree ... 25 should be the minimum for enlisting ....

[They Live 1988]

174. I agree with what you said, but

The state should get involved and does have a role but only when the drunk injures or otherwise infringes on the rights of another person, not before. I do not believe in punishing people before they have committed an actual crime. Otherwise, we should have laws that incarcerate people with a mutated allele on the 13th chromosome that predisposes them to aggression, because they 'might' commit a murder or aggressive act of violence in the future. Maybe Bush can enact some 'thought crime' laws via exective order before he leaves office, the son of a *&*&#.

[DavidMS]

134. I think its a good idea

Let 16 and 17 year olds have a drink with dinner at restaurants and home provided their parents are present.

Let 18 year olds buy drinks and consume on premise.

21 to buy and take away.

It would lead to more responsibility and make alcohol more of a food than a drug.

[Zynx]

135. I think we need to change the age you can enlist more than anything.

[Breeze54]

140. But if the GOP got ahold of that, they'd lower the age to 13!!

:puke:

They're already trying to get recruitment into the minds of kids in junior high! :grr:

[Zynx]

143. Republicans are death-hungry.

[MonkeyFunk]

142. The age was 18 when I was growing up...

and I was a bartender at 19.

A lot of kids I knew were killed in those years. Lower the drinking age, and a lot more will die - that's indisputable.

[Breeze54]

152. "A lot of kids I knew were killed in those years" too, in Vietnam.

:(

[walldude]

158. I understand the problem of a lower drinking age

but can you honestly tell a guy who 2 weeks ago was scraping his buddies brains off his shoes that he's not old enough to drink? We either need to lower the drinking age or raise the enlistment age...

[MonkeyFunk]

164. I've never found such arguments compelling

there isn't now, and never has been, one magic age at which we become adults.

We can have jobs, drive cars, sign contracts, get married, etc., at different ages. There isn't one special day where someone suddenly becomes an adult. We have to use our experience and common sense to figure out what's allowed when. I really don't see how one issue has anything to do with the other.

[Breeze54]

165. Yes there is one magic day you become an adult... AGE 18 !!!

That's a fact! That's LAW! That's the way it is in the REAL WORLD!!

Get with it! :eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

170. For some things

but not for everything.

[Breeze54]

171. Yeah, like being able to buy alcohol legally.

;)

[DireStrike]

144. I SAY NO!!!

As a 23 year old, it would make me unbearably jealous =(

But seriously yeah, it should be 18. Same for pot.

[Breeze54]

154. LOL but... pot has no age limit, just a weight limit (in some states)

;)

[ZombieHorde]

145. Either

Either the drinking age should be lowered, or the enlistment age should be raised.

[mondo joe]

150. Same age to drink - vote - enlist - sign legally binding contracts - be tried as an adult.

They should be the same.

[pitohui]

153. it won't happen for financial reasons

no state is going to give up its federal highway funds (millions of dollars) just so an 18 year old soldier can have a beer

[Breeze54]

155. From all the pot holes I see daily, I don't think that's a problem.

:shrug:

But that could be changed as well.

[Radical Activist]

157. But only for troops? Its a sign of fascism

when people are given extraordinary rights and privileges because of military service that are unavailable to others. We shouldn't be creating another class of citizen. I see this happening a lot lately. It bothers me.

[Quantess]

160. GMAFB, pretender

That stands for give me a fucking break, pretender.

Edited to say: I'm sorry for sounding rude. However, I question how you take yourself seriously.

[Radical Activist]

168. Study fascist governments.

Look up all the special privileges the nazis gave to troops. Soldiers deserve more pay and benefits than they get but having more legal rights or being above the law is something different. I do see it suggested a lot lately and giving soldiers special status in society is one way leaders build support for war and military service.

[Breeze54]

166. I say for all 18 year olds. Someone else (a rep) said only for troops.

;)

[Radical Activist]

169. That wouldn't bother me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

163. You know if we treated alcohol differently and were more mature about it

we'd have less problems

That said, DUI... we are not harsh enough