Southern California Woman Shot Dead While on Phone With 911 Dispatcher

[michreject]

This is why I carry a gun. Even at home, my Keltec is in my sweat pants pocket.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Southern California Woman Shot Dead While on Phone With 911 Dispatcher

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Southern California Woman Shot Dead While on Phone With 911 Dispatcher
Thursday, March 20, 2008


WEST COVINA, Calif. — A woman was asking a 911 dispatcher for help when her pleas were interrupted by gunshots, then silence. She was shot to death.

The woman told the dispatcher someone was trying to break into her home in upscale West Covina, Los Angeles County sheriff's Lt. Dan Rosenberg said. "Deputies heard gunshots followed by silence and an open phone line," he said.

Deputies arrived at the house, 20 miles east of Los Angeles, a few minutes after Wednesday's late morning call.

The woman, whose name was not released by police, had been shot several times. Paramedics pronounced her dead at the scene.

"At this point we believe it was a burglary gone awry," Rosenberg said.

Cont............

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,340008,00.html

(Sorry about the link. Got the story from another board):hide:

[SteelPenguin]

1. Wait...

While lounging around at home you have a small handgun in your sweat pants pocket at all times? That seems overly paranoid and unsafe to me.

[michreject]

5. I bet that lady wished she had a gun available

at the last moment of her life.

[SteelPenguin]

8. She had time to make a phone call

I'm not saying don't own a gun, I'm saying put a combination gun lock on it, and stash it above the fridge or something. Heck if you're really paranoid stash a different gun in every room of your house somewhere.

Owning a gun for self defense isn't crazy. Needing to carry one around with you at all times loaded and loosely hanging there in your sweatpants just might be.

[michreject]

11. It's in a pocket holster

I do have a gun in every room in the house. No one here except my wife and I.

[SteelPenguin]

16. Question

I know some people might get insulting here, and I assure you, I'm just trying to understand your position here, as I simply don't understand it...

So with all respect...

Do you feel unsafe and unsecure if you are without a gun on you at all times? If you're not carrying a weapon, what are your thoughts? Does it border on a panic attack, or is it more just that you carry a gun, like someone else might carry their keys or their asthma inhaler. More of just one of those things you 'wear' and don't even think about? Or is it very consious?

Are you nervous at times when you aren't allowed to be armed? Stadiums or Arenas? Airports?

Have you ever drawn your weapon with the thought that you might have to use it? Have you actually used it?

[Pavulon]

41. I can answer..

Both my wife and I have a CCW. She works in a hospital and they are always in the worst parts of town. Her hours are bizarre.

I almost never carry a weapon. If I do it is in the center console of a car. A ccw makes it less of a hassle to travel and stow handguns.

However I did have an incident where someone climbed into my window early am. This was 10 years ago.

The dog ran out barking and they were mid way through after knocking off all the plants on the window sill. I pointed a flashlight in their face and told them to get out of my fucking house house. He probably did not see the gun pointed at him. I was hungover.

Meth looking shirtless asshole there to steal my shit. That situation, in NC, meets criteria for using a weapon. I did not. Had he not stopped or reached for his pants I would have shot him. 2 month out of boot he is pretty lucky in retrospect.

Both my wife and i are educated middle class people. Not nuts. The reality is that having a weapon harms no one and in the event it is needed provides a useful function. Simple as that.

[SteelPenguin]

52. Do you carry your weapon in your pants at all times?

This is the part that makes me raise an eyebrow.

Gun in the car, I'm not arguing with. Concealed weapon going to/from work in a bad part of town, neither. In your bedside table...I'm with you.

It's the carrying it on your person at all times thing that I'm questioning. I'm glad he is trained and has it holstered, as he's a range officer, he's probably the most qualified person to do such a thing...However it's still extreme, and human error happens even with the most qualified people.

[Pavulon]

53. No, it is annoying

to carry a weapon all the time. On the rare occasion I actually carry it I tuck a holster in my belt line.

To legally conceal you must have a ccw. To qualify you take a class and qualify. While a person could tuck a revolver without a holster, I do not see why they would.

The link is from an oddball site but demonstrates proper CCW.

[michreject]

56. I do have a carry permit

I have carried a gun for so many years, I don't eve know I have it on. The key is to buy a top quality holster. Most of mine are Milt Sparks. I wear mine in the 4 o'clock position. The 2 o'clock position, as in your pic, is too uncomfortable for me.

[Squatch]

57. "Proper" for that person

I prefer to carry mine IWB over my right ass cheek. I scooch it to the right when I get into a car, but when I'm out and about, it's closer to the small of my back.

[Pavulon]

54. dupe

dupe

[Unrepentant Fenian]

69. Oh yeah... and 50,000,000,000 people on DU !

[DrDan]

17. for every person you describe

there are hundreds who wished some relative did not have a gun in the hands that just went off accidentally . . .

[MaryCeleste]

29. There are also all of those for whom displaying a weapon detterred a perp

Soft stats are impossible to prove. My wife shot someone intent on coming in the house with her and the daughter there. So its clear what side I come down on.

[michreject]

40. You watch too much TV

Modern guns (guns made in the last 50 years) don't just "Go off". You have to pull the trigger. They pass a drop test.

[DrDan]

63. well - within the past week we (in the local area) had a 22 month-old

"shoot himself"

The owner/father initially claimed the child pulled the trigger.

This owner/father is now arrested and in jail. I pray this owner gets his due. This 22 month-old was robbed of a life - because this testosterone-deficient gun owner had to play around with his male-ego-booster.

Unfortunately this is not an isolated, anecdotal case. It is more prevalant than gun-owners want to admit to.

[havocmom]

7. I personally know five woman who were raped.

ALL were at home, in nice neighborhoods at the time of their attacks

Dealing with reality is not paranoia.

[SteelPenguin]

10. Carrying a gun on you at all times is

I'm not saying owning a gun is crazy, I'm saying needing to carry it on you at all times, including having it hanging loosely in your sweatpants is. You're far more likely to hurt yourself that way.

[Deep13]

14. A Keltec is small an weighs hardly anything.

I guess I have to ask what the downside is? I don't wear one myself, but it is pretty close by. Frankly, my real concern is that one of the douche-bags I sent to prison will intercept me in the office parking lot when he gets out. The DA doesn't allow civilian firearms in the building for liability reasons (the boss or landlord is never at fault for a murder, but may be held responsible for allowing weapons for employees). So from the door to the car, especially in the winter when it is dark, is pretty much open season.

[SteelPenguin]

19. That sounds like a reasonable time to carry a firearm

If the parking lot is dark and public and you have people who might want to kill you, that would be a time I could see having a Keltec in a pocket holster walking to your car.

Transfering that gun to your sweatpants while you watch the Daily Show after you get home is the part that seems over the top to me.

[Deep13]

31. I don't know how much it would really help, actually.

If these guys are smart (so far none of them have been) they would lie in wait in the churchyard across the street with a scoped rifle. There would be no warning and no defense against that. Similarly, it would not be too much trouble to hide behind a car with a pistol until an employee got close.

Like I said, all my firearms are in their cases in a put-away place except one that basically hibernates next to the bed.

[havocmom]

20. So, you are a board certified psychologist and sole judge of other's living conditions?

Didn't think so.

It amazes me how many people on this liberal board think they get to judge people they have never met, do not know anything about and do not know the life conditions everyone personally lives with.

Fact: Police departments have been cleared of ANY responsibility of the foolish expectation of the public that they arrive in time to prevent a crime. Basically, they are a deterrent presence in the community, the agency called to draw the chalk outline of the bodies that get dropped, and run investigations AFTER THE CRIME.

In reality, you only get the peace and security you can enforce in your immediate presence, the courts have backed that up time and time again.

Some of us have jobs that make enemies, as the other poster has pointed out. Some of us live in areas where there is little law enforcement presence and we accept the facts that the police will usually not get there in time to save our asses. Some of us live in places where there are four legged predators who do not always recognize any laws but those of nature. Some of us are deluded and think the nice officer will ALWAYS get there in time to keep the peace and that they are the arbiters of what constitutes good mental health for people whose living conditions are unknown to them.

Dealing with one's personal surroundings and realities is NOT paranoia. That was told to me BY a board certified psychologist, a board certified psychiatrists, three judges and a family full of cops during many discussions on the need to address reality and firearm use.

[SteelPenguin]

25. Maybe I am

You don't know. I could claim it but you wouldn't believe it. I could claim anything about myself.

So, instead, I'll claim I have no experience whatsoever in any of this, either in psychology, or gun safety.

I'm not disagreeing with anything that you're stating here. I'm not saying that there aren't people who NEED guns to protect themselves. I could make a claim that a good friend of mine grew up in the middle of nowhere Montana and got his first rifle when he was very young and had to carry it everywhere he went for safety reasons. I could also claim that another friend of mine was a trained MP in the military and was injured, though not seriously, by a handgun accident, even after he had been trained, and used them for years.

Yes, absolutely, some people need guns to protect themselves from the environment or other people if they happen to be in the sort of position to create that ire. Dealing with the reality of life is definately NOT paranoia. There's a difference though between having a firearm within seconds reach, and carrying one on your person at all times, including at home while watching television. At a certain point the statistics move against you and you're endangering yourself more than protecting yourself, no matter how trained you are.

[benEzra]

48. Generally speaking, the military doesn't get much training in the safe handling of loaded guns.

Outside of special operations, the standard military doctrine is chamber empty at all times when not on the firing line, with the gun treated as such; the philosophy is "unloaded gun inert, loaded gun dangerous." It is dangerous because you should never view a gun as inert, because that leads to negligent discharges under the "I didn't know it was loaded" refrain. Unloaded guns get tossed around in the military in ways that would make most trained civilians (including LEO's) cringe.

The law enforcement training model is much more applicable to civilian life, IMO--all guns are assumed to be loaded, and treated as such; you do not handle a gun as if it were unloaded just because you think it is unloaded. The high rate of negligent discharges in Iraq has caused some to question the current military "all guns cold unless firing" training paradigm, which looks good on paper but works out rather badly in real life.

Having a gun holstered on your person is often safer than having it stashed around the house somewhere, where children or unauthorized adults could access it, FWIW. In our house, guns are either within arm's reach or secured in the safe or in a quick-access lockbox; there is no in-between.

Any gun on one's person should be in a holster, not loose in one's pants, though. Google the name "Chang Thong Vo" for an example of why holsterless carry is a seriously bad idea...

[itsrobert]

72. As far as the Air Force goes this is not the case

M-9 Berreta's are loaded with round in the chamber. The 9mm has several safety features built in to prevent an accidental discharge. The 9MM is ready to fire on a pull of the trigger. The M-16/GAU/M4 is carried with a magazine inserted, on safe, with no round in the chamber. Of course in a combat zone, arming rules are up to the Unified Commander (most often Army).

[havocmom]

64. Thank you for your candid remarks

Thank you, from the middle of nowhere Montana, as it happens.

[northernsoul]

32. note of agreement: law enforcement IS NOT crime prevention

Assuming that police will arrive in a timely manner could have disastrous repercussions.

[Unrepentant Fenian]

71. Reading/ Comprehension Problems

Maybe you have trouble reading or comprehending "people on this liberal board", so I'll try to help you out. Here is the reply, as posted (and I quote),
"I'm not saying owning a gun is crazy, I'm saying needing to carry it on you at all times, including having it hanging loosely in your sweatpants is. You're far more likely to hurt yourself that way."

What the reply is saying is that they DON'T think owning a gun is crazy,they said that it may be UNSAFE. that negates your claim of (and again I quote) "It amazes me how many people on this liberal board think they get to JUDGE PEOPLE THEY HAVE NEVER MET". The person replying merely expressed concern that you might cause harm to yourself by having a gun with no safety on it banging around in your sweatpants. As a gun owner myself I have to wonder if it really isn't paranoia that makes someone carry a loaded gun in their sweats. No judgment, but it does make me wonder....

[havocmom]

74. My comprehension is fine. There are places/times when NOT having a gun close by is dangerous

The person I was replying to made a statement based on assumptions about how everyone else lives. Then, after my reply, cleared up any misunderstanding and admitted that YES, different people in different circumstances do have different needs.

Or did you miss that.

People I know around here live with snakes 3 seasons out of the year. If they want to keep their kids safe, the usually have a pistol in their holster when about the house. Kids run in and out. If somebody yells SNAKE you don't always have time to get the gun safe open.

Some people have jobs that have made them enemies.

Some women living alone have REAL people out to get them. While working with divorce support groups, I read a very startling statistic. Aside from pregnancy/childbirth related issues, the next leading reason for women to have to go to hospitals is ABUSE. Since too many police departments don't take restraining orders real seriously, and since NO police department can be expected to ride in on white horses in the nick of time, people in real danger from others might not be crazy to keep a pistol at hand. Since on your person is safer than laying around, no, not crazy at all to have a holstered firearm on one's person at home, under some circumstances.

As a gun owner who has lived in many different circumstances, I tend to reserve judgment about people I know nothing about. Yeah, I do think some folks are in need of help, but carrying a gun is not my criteria if I don't know why they are doing it. Sometimes, it makes perfect sense.

Yes, some people are of questionable sanity. That could be helped considerably by better mental health care and a cultural conscious raising that asking for help is not a bad thing at all. What is bad is that the culture seems to be opposed to mental health care for the most part.

[Pavulon]

38. If you you are going to do something do it right

most handgun shootings leave the "victim" mobile and alive. Barring the criminal who shoots point blank into the head or torso.

Ask anyone who works in a hospital how many people they treat with wounds from 00 buckshot. Answer, few to none.

Shotguns are intuitive, provide minimal recoil, and kill with one shot.

Making a call as to this persons situation is sad and unfair. However the reality is fucked up shit happens. I would prefer to have a chance to deal with it when it does. Hence the 12GA in my home.

[Perry Logan]

2. When you shoot yourself in the crotch, don't come crying to us.

[michreject]

4. It's in a holster

designed for pocket carry

[Junkdrawer]

3. I've always said that paranoia is the "nut" in Gun Nut...n/t

[LanternWaste]

6. And while I was on the phone

And while I was on the phone ordering pizza, I wasn't shot-- accidentally or on purpose. Go figure...

[hyphenate]

9. My old neighborhood

The idiot David Dreier was our rep, that SOB. Yes, it was upscale--my one-bedroom went to $1100 just before I left. At that rate, I could have gotten a house. I'd been there for 12 1/2 years.

I was always afraid that someone would get in and kill me, though there was little basis for my fear. It had security gates and a guard, but it was vulnerable in some ways. Before they put garage doors on our parking area, someone stole my camcorder from my car, and I was told it was only one of many robberies. One of the reasons they put the doors on.

Evenso, there are people out there willing to rob and kill you to get what they want, regardless of how safe you think you are.

[madmom]

12. There IS a difference between people knowing HOW to carry a gun and gun safety,

and those who don't.

[michreject]

13. I'm a Range officer

I shoot competitively. I understand the rules of firearm safety.

[Stuckinthebush]

21. Let me ask you a question

I'm not a gun guy. After some bad experiences in my youth, I have a phobia of them.

That said, I have three young daughters who haven't experienced guns. We don't have them in the house and don't plan on it. But, I'm thinking it would be a good idea to have them take a gun safety course because many of their friends' parents have guns. My middle child did learn to shoot rifles at camp last summer, but I'm thinking of hand gun safety too.

Anyway, as a range officer, what info can you give me on general gun safety courses designed for kids?

Thanks.

[michreject]

23. Contact the boy/girl scouts

They'll point you in the right direction.

I applaud your willingness to teach your kids gun safety. It removes the mystique about them.

[notadmblnd]

33. The Sportsmens club here in Michigan provides gun safty courses

My dad's been bugging me for two years to let my now 15 yr old take the course. He wants to give him a shotgun for his birthday so they can go hunting together. I compromised, he can take the class and have the gun, but it has to be kept at grandpa's house. There is no need for a gun in my house and I feel it will only cause trouble. I know how 15 yr olds are with their things. They like to show them off to their friends. This is why I won't let him have one in the house. We did have guns in the house when my husband was alive (with trigger locks), but after he died I got rid of them. The chance of my son (then 10) getting a hold of them was just to big of a risk for me to take.

If a robber wants my stuff, he can have everything I own. It's just stuff and I can always get more stuff. What I can't replace is my son, a friend or a neighbor.

[michreject]

36. See the OP

The robber may want your life. No witnesses.

[notadmblnd]

49. My affairs are in order, my son is provided for.

If someone is determined to kill me, then it probably doesn't matter what I possess to defend myself with. Knives kill, baseball bats kill, so do Icepicks and hammers. All of these are regular household items that do not attract a young boy's curiosity like a new shotgun is likely to do. I'm not against guns, I just don't feel that I live under circumstances where one is required in order to preserve my life.

Could circumstances change in the future? Sure, but then the guns are stored at grandpa's and will be easily obtainable at that time. I do want my boy to be able to handle a gun, I want him to be able to hunt, he may need the skill someday in order to survive.

[michreject]

55. It really wasn't directed at you personally

It was more of a rhetorical question. It seem that bad guy now days are more apt to kill you and leave no witnesses. They have a low regard for life.

[Stuckinthebush]

51. I'll check into that

I'm sure there are NRA sponsored programs around too.

Thanks.

[Pakhet]

44. That's a very good idea

I started gun safety instruction with my daughter when she was 3. It's never too early :) She still remembers those lessons, and was a fair shot when young, but doesn't care to shoot or own a gun at this time

[Stuckinthebush]

50. That's the thing..

Teach them to respect the gun and to know what it is capable of doing. Admittedly, I hate the things but I know that they are everywhere. I guess it would be akin to not teaching your teenager about protection from pregnancy and STDs to not teach kids about guns.

We live in the South and so I am certain that a large percent of their friends' parents have guns. Best not to put my head in the sand because of my dislike for guns.

[madmom]

28. Good on you, I was expressing this sentiment to those above with

the "paranoia" and "shooting yourself" replies. My whole family has been around guns forever and they ALL know safe gun etiquette and laws.Many people would have a lot less fear of guns if they went in this direction, IMO.

[Mike Daniels]

15. I think it's a little more than a burglary in this case

Most burglars would probably break off their plan and flee once they were aware there was someone in the house and awake.

Someone that motivated to continue to break in even once it's probably apparent that their presence has been detected is probably after something beyond a few jewels and cash.

[Wcross]

22. Sure sounds like it was a planned killing. n/t

[MaryCeleste]

30. Home invasions are becoming more common

Perps are much more willing to kill as well it seems. Lots of details missing about this story too.

Sort of surprised that a home that big did not have a security system or a safe room. Depends how old it is.

[Pavulon]

39. A barking dog in a fence,

good alarm, and a last defense pump shotgun are common sense things to have.

If a person breaches a dog and alarm they are not there to sell insurance.

A shotgun is simple to operate and deadly. Works through walls and doors.

[MaryCeleste]

46. I can't have dog, but I have a serious secuirty system

integrates with the lights and thermostat as well. Custom installation well above anything Brinks or ADT could do, but not intrusive. Its based on an HAI Omni Pro II. I don't carry, and my home defense weapons are secured but easy access. I vastly prefer handguns to shotguns as well.

[Mike Daniels]

45. Night invasions are pretty much the one case where I feel the homeowner should be allowed free reign

in whatever course of action they feel is necessary to deal with the matter.

While the ideal solution would be to get the hell out of the house and call the police from safety if you live an a multi-person house with separate bedrooms that's not always feasible.

Furthermore, plain old burglary is generally geared to be confrontation adverse where you would generally commit the crime when you most expect the house to be unoccupied. Someone who breaks into a house late at night when the house is likely occupied probably isn't interested in just relieving the homeowners of some material possessions.

Would I like the homeowner to at least give the perp some idea that his presence is known and a chance to get out of Dodge? Of course. However, should the perp fail to vacate the house within seconds of that "heads up" I think that shows the perp has chosen to make a stand and the homeowner is thereby free to deal with the matter through whatever means of force necessary.

[MaryCeleste]

47. Due to abuse by police and DAs, I prefer the Castle Doctrine which has

a much clearer standard, though it too is open to abuse.

If a perp is breaking into a house knowing there are people present, and especially awake, there is reasonable presumption of intent to do injury.

[MrScorpio]

61. Agreed

However, I wouldn't take off the table the prospect that whomever broke into her house did so with the expressed intention to commit murder and make it look like a bungled burglary.

[High Plains]

58. Shockingly, many of us survive without security systems or safe rooms

or guns.

I don't know how we do it.

[MaryCeleste]

62. You are fortunate

As I posted earlier, a home that large not having either or both would not be the norm in todays market. Then again, lots of people buy homes with alarms and never turn them one. I had a buyer from a previous house finally call me about how to enable the one in the home he bought from me 2 years and 1 home invasion later. (The full instructions were in the turnover package)

Because of the incident we had where my wife shot a perp, we have always put in security systems since. At this point I do them myself. Having one is also another layer of protection around whatever firearms I happen to have in the house.

I glad to see you have not been mugged, burglarized, or been the victim of a home invasion robbery. The cleanup from them is messy and time consuming, and its not just physical

[Wcross]

65. Shouldn't you edit to say "so far"? n/t

[NickB79]

66. And I've never needed to use a fire extinguisher

But there's still one under my kitchen sink.

[Squatch]

18. Dude...way to post an important story that's immediately hijacked by an unrelated side issue

[michreject]

24. Some have a agenda...nt

[Junkdrawer]

26. And you don't....

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[michreject]

37. Yes I do

To arm every sane person in America:think:

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Do you sleep with that gun in your pocket?

Isn't that kind of uncomfortable?

[michreject]

35. And my wife thinks I'm glad to see her

Seriously. I have one on my night stand and my wife has one on her night stand. Both loaded and sans lock.

[proud2BlibKansan]

59. Where I am from,

we would call you paranoid.

[Wcross]

60. Are you from WEST COVINA, California?

Thats where the dead woman lived. At least she wasn't paranoid?

[Wcross]

34. I refuse to wear a gun in my own home.

I do have several loaded & ready to use if the need arises. I keep a shotgun in the living room & one in the bedroom. As far as a handgun, I don't see them as being as useful for self defense in the home as a good shotgun but I do keep one in the nightstand next to my cellphone. If someone tries to enter my home forcibly I will be holding a 12 gauge with 00 buck. I hope it never happens but I would rather be prepared than dead.

[cyclezealot]

42. For now we live in Europe

Its nice to have no sense of ever needing a gun. We will certainly never return to places like Covina. Because, guns are not us.

[Pavulon]

43. I love Europe for that, and many reasons,

you can own a gun, but in many places never "need" one. Germany and Switzerland were particularly fun places.

There are cultural and socio-economic factors at play in the US. Until those are addressed this will continue.

[cyclezealot]

67. In the south of France, think we can only own a rifle.

for hunting. I know of no gun shop anywhere near. I can't imagine a need for a gun. We go to our closest large town for English cinema. We walk all about the town at 1 am. No fears. But, in the US cultural , socio-economic conditions are worsening. What does that mean.

[cynatnite]

68. Why I don't carry a gun...

My 9 year old son, Nathan, who is still alive.

My 12 year old nephew, Ethan, who was accidentally killed by a gun.

[DiverDave]

73. I'm so sorry for your nephew

and I'll second the post upthread...how have I gotten along without one?

Oh, and adding the "yet" was a nice touch:crazy:

[ecstatic]

70. I wish I had one too. Sounds like killer was a stalker or ex

It doesn't sound like a typical robbery... I'd imagine shooting is the last resort in a true home robbery.