The new HBO mini-series on John Adams began tonight & is excellent.

[Lex]

I'm sure they'll re-play the 1st 2 episodes during the week. Do try to catch it if you can.

The forgotten founding father

IN 'JOHN ADAMS,' HBO BRINGS SECOND PRESIDENT TO LIFE ON REVOLUTION'S VIVID BACKGROUND

Ask anybody to name the great presidents of our country and you'll probably get the usual suspects: Washington, Lincoln, FDR, maybe Truman and JFK (from Democrats) and Reagan (from Republicans).

But it's highly unlikely anyone will immediately mention John Adams, founding father, co-architect of the Constitution and second president of the United States.

"His face isn't on Mount Rushmore. There is no memorial to him in Washington," says historian David McCullough. "It's disgraceful, because except for George Washington - and I'm not the only historian or biographer who has said this - there was no more important American in the whole Revolutionary era than John Adams."

This failure to give Adams his due may change with "John Adams," HBO's lavish, sprawling and extraordinarily intelligent miniseries based on McCullough's 2001 bestseller about the Massachusetts lawyer and patriot and his wife, Abigail.

The miniseries was produced by actor Tom Hanks, a history buff who previously did "From Earth to the Moon" and "Band of Brothers" for HBO. The seven-episode series - which begins tonight at 8 - manages to be a rousing piece of filmmaking, a fascinating character study and a largely accurate presentation of the time when America was born.

"One of the most exciting, and one of the most important, aspects of this miniseries is that now we're going to see that founding time as it's never been seen before with a vitality and a reality," McCullough says. says. "And there was no more important time in our whole story."

The historian went into the "John Adams" project with some trepidation, because, on the whole, films and TV series that delve into America's past often have oversimplified their stories and foundered in a sea of gross inaccuracies. That the HBO miniseries does not McCullough credits to Hanks.

more here ---> http://origin.mercurynews.com/charliemccollum/ci_8592125

[NashVegas]

1. He's Got a Fine Brew Named for Him

A fine tribute, indeed.

[Lex]

2. Samuel Adams has already made an appearance

as well. Speaking of brews, that is.

[NashVegas]

4. Oops!

This is my defense:

[Muttocracy]

3. you mean Sam Adams? different Bostonian I think nt

[WCGreen]

73. Cousins....

[Lex]

5. bumping for John Adams, our 2nd US president

url for the full length trailer for the mini-series:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CNbQOrxQ-g

[Apinionated]

6. It's a very good mini-series.

Thanks for the link to the trailer.

[AlCzervik]

7. Love it! The casting is brilliant, Paul Giamatti is just wonderful and Laura Linney

as Abigail, could not be better, Abigail Adams was quite a woman and David McCullough is a fantastic writer.

[Lex]

11. I completely agree about Abagail Adams and Laura Linney--

:thumbsup:

[asdjrocky]

37. For sure.

Laura Linney is just wonderful isn't she. So strong, and with such wit. I can see the real Abigail Adams in every move she makes.

[MountainLaurel]

8. I got chills

During the reading of the Declaration of Independence. And the silence after the final vote to become independent was perfect.

[Lex]

9. Me too.

The 1st two episodes were amazing.

[michreject]

34. When is part 3? ...nt

[Penndems]

39. Parts Three and Four will be shown next Sunday night, March 23rd, beginning at 9:00 EDT

Part Three: "Don't Tread On Me"

Part Four: "Reunion"

*******************************************

Link:
http://www.hbo.com/films/johnadams/?ntrack_para1=feat_main_image

[michreject]

40. Thanks.. nt

[Lex]

13. The little twit from SC was really

pissing me off!

[DesertRat]

21. Me too!

Arrogant punk! lol

[Daphne08]

23. I did, too.

[bicentennial_baby]

10. I live in the Qz, and I loved it!!

City of Presidents represent!! :bounce:

[crispini]

12. It was excellent!

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[misanthrope]

14. I wonder how they'll cover the fact...

...that those "noble altruists" considered any fellow Americans not white, landed males undeserving of full human rights?

And that they thought it fine for citizens to shed blood for their cause but less capable of self-rule?

[Lex]

16. I take it you didn't see it tonight, then?

:shrug:

[misanthrope]

17. Oh, I saw it...

...I saw Jefferson openly condemning slavery despite the fact he owned them his entire life.

I heard Adams portray himself as self-made--"my father was a simple shoemaker; my mother could not read"--then later the film revealed his family had been landowners since the reign of Charles II. Owning land was no small thing then.

I did like the way it presented the violence toward the tax collector in honest brutality as the affront it was. I also liked the intimidation it showed visited on the African-American witness in the trial scene.

However, I don't think Giamatti's scant lines about the inherent myopia and barbarism of men suffices as an address of what I mentioned, especially in light of the language used in the Declaration of Independence. The things I mentioned in my previous post won't be pertinent until the Constitution is framed anyway.

[Lex]

28. The book "The Summer of 1787" is a very good read that goes into

the conflicts about that very topic during the framing of the Constitution. I was surprised to find out that many of the founding fathers pretty much knew that a civil war would eventually come about because of the issue of slavery looming as an unresolved flashpoint.

[Donnachaidh]

29. Adams was a well-known anti-slavery person, as his wife was

Why don't you try WATCHING before you take up that broad brush of ignorance? There were MANY in the New England colonies that never owned slaves, and actively sought to stop it.

[Lex]

31. Plus, there were many who were conflicted about it and evolved to

giving up slavery. It's hard for some people to realize that the view-point we have about the topic now are modern-day. Yes it was just as wrong then, but that time was different and we have to try to look at from that time-frame. Not excusing it, but saying we have to try to see it as a 1770's issue for what it was then.

[misanthrope]

43. The human brain now is as it was then...

...Had no one ever realized the inherent injustice of slavery before the mid-1860s?

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. I think they did.

Unfortunately, the reformers had to choose between two almost equally bad institutions: slavery and debt-peonage.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19548.htm

Debt-peonage won out, and it took a very long time for the abolition of slavery to make any meaningful improvement in their lives or the lives of other workers.

In the American South (mainly New Orleans), the Irish lived in swamp land infested with disease. Here, Irish men were looked upon as actually lower than slaves. As one historian put it, if a plantation owner lost a slave, he lost an investment; if he lost a laborer, he could always get another. Because the Irish workers were plentiful and expendable, they were often sent in to do dangerous jobs for which the slave-owners were reluctant to send their valuable slaves.2

"Debt Slavery" Replaces Physical Slavery

This form of "debt slavery" or "debt peonage" was not just an accidental development of history. It was a deliberately-planned alternative to the slave arrangement in which owners were responsible for the feeding and care of a dependent population, and it is still with us today. Although European financiers were in favor of an American Civil War that would return the United States to its colonial status, they admitted privately that they were not necessarily interested in preserving slavery. They preferred "the European plan": capital could exploit labor by controlling the money supply, while letting the laborers feed themselves. In July 1862, this ploy was revealed in a notorious document called the Hazard Circular, which was circulated by British banking interests among their American banking counterparts. It said:

Slavery is likely to be abolished by the war power and chattel slavery destroyed. This, I and my European friends are glad of, for slavery is but the owning of labor and carries with it the care of the laborers, while the European plan, led by England, is that capital shall control labor by controlling wages. This can be done by controlling the money. The great debt that capitalists will see to it is made out of the war, must be used as a means to control the volume of money. To accomplish this, the bonds must be used as a banking basis. . . . It will not do to allow the greenback, as it is called, to circulate as money any length of time, as we cannot control that.3

This is one of the reasons that northern industrialists were keen on ending slavery.

[leftstreet]

50. Excellent article

Thanks for the link

:thumbsup:

[misanthrope]

53. Right...

...I was aware of the developing systems at the time. The situation you described above was part of the genesis of the long-noted friction on this continent between the Irish and African-Americans.

I remember trying to emphasize this point around the time the Ken Burns documentary on the Civil War was aired. He wanted to believe that "Yankees" suddenly became more enlightened about human rights than did their Southern brethren and I told him that they were no more high-minded in whole, they just found a more cost-efficient way to exploit others.

[Lex Talionis]

38. Different times, different thought process.

The principle of what the Declaration of Independence stands for, still applies to this day and beyond. No, they were not perfect. They gave us the ideal that all men, and yes ladies you to, are created equal. I'm all for it.

Real freedom is something you have to fight, and die for. Living under big Government does not make you free. They understood all that. Wonder what they would say about the present day America.

[misanthrope]

42. The fact of the matter is...

...it never occurred to them anyone could consider women in the same regard as men. And though some of them might have considered slavery an affront, that is a far cry from believing black folks, or even poor whites, to be equals.

Those documents were intended to represent people other than me. In their belief system, I don't amount to a full human being. And they likely would have been shocked and offended at the empowerment afforded some in our modern world.

Bottom line is that we are damn fortunate to have ended up with a document bearing enough flexibility to adapt to later times.

[Lex Talionis]

47. I agree with all you said. Fortunate the way it turned out?

Hell, yea. That's why we have to dwell on the here and now. What we are seeing this day, is power in the hands of a few. Not what the Founding Fathers wanted. The Constitution is all that stands between our Government of today and tyranny. Corny sounding? maybe. True? Judge for yourself

I'm sure in some smoke filled backroom their working on a way to get around it. Look at the last few decades or so, wiretaps, Militarization of the local police, search and seizures, The RICO act and so forth. We are not nearly as free as we think.

[misanthrope]

54. I agree with the Constitution being a difference...

...however to lionize these men as ultimate egalitarians is big mistake. What they enacted was a softer form of plutocracy. It has changed in the years since.

[Lex Talionis]

57. Again I agree. But,

What they imagined and put into motion. Was and still is quit amazing. Just the original amendments, of course disregarding that having to do with slaves, landless, and yea treatment of the Native Americans,and so forth, is to this day quit earth shaking. No where else in this world or in history, that I am aware of are these principles stated as being an individual right.

We The People. Pretty powerful words when you think about. All the powerful Elites of any Government fear those three words more than anything else. Just my humble opinion.

[BigDaddy44]

69. These men risked everything

Were they perfect? No. But if the revolution had failed then would have been captured and hung. As it were, many of them suffered terribly as a result of the sacrifices they made, and died paupers.

History evolves. They took an evolutionary step that was radical at the time. Did they go far enough? No. But they made the decisions they needed to make to move forward.

Condemning them 230 years after the fact because they didn't immediately create a vision for the society we have today is to me unfair and absurd.

Sorry, I know its unfashionable, but I'll gladly salute a bunch of dead old white men for changing the world.

[suffragette]

52. From some of Abigail's writings, it seems she did and that she attempted

to persuade him to expand his views.


There is the famous "Remember the ladies" letter:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/adams/filmmore/ps_ladies.html

Tho we felicitate ourselves, we sympathize with those who are trembling least the Lot of Boston should be theirs. But they cannot be in similar circumstances unless pusilanimity and cowardise should take possession of them. They have time and warning given them to see the Evil and shun it.-I long to hear that you have declared an independancy-and by the way in the new Code of Laws which I suppose it will be necessary for you to make I desire you would Remember the Ladies, and be more generous and favourable to them than your ancestors. Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the Husbands. Remember all Men would be tyrants if they could. If perticuliar care and attention is not paid to the Laidies we are determined to foment a Rebelion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any Laws in which we have no voice, or Representation.

That your Sex are Naturally Tyrannical is a Truth so thoroughly established as to admit of no dispute, but such of you as wish to be happy willingly give up the harsh title of Master for the more tender and endearing one of Friend. Why then, not put it out of the power of the vicious and the Lawless to use us with cruelty and indignity with impunity. Men of Sense in all Ages abhor those customs which treat us only as the vassals of your Sex. Regard us then as Beings placed by providence under your protection and in immitation of the Supreem Being make use of that power only for our happiness.

His initial response was not sympathetic, to say the least, but it seems she influenced him to start giving the issue serious thought: http://www.galegroup.com/free_resources/whm/bio/adams_a.htm

Undaunted, Adams shared her radical views with Mercy Otis Warren, and even spoke of petitioning Congress to consider her views. Although she did not do this, her proposal did have some effect. John seemed to have taken her ideas to heart and to have given the matter considerable thought as he struggled with the issue of voters' rights. He understood that a government built on the principles of freedom and equality and carried out with the consent of the people must by reason include women in that equation. With foresight, he wrote to Brigadier General Joseph Palmer on the issue of qualifying voters, "Depend on it, Sir, it is dangerous to open so fruitfull a source of Controversy and altercation, as would be opened by attempting to alter the Qualifications of Voters. There will be no end to it — New claims will arise — Women will demand a vote" (Levin, p. 87).

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part2/2h23.html
She is pretty direct in this letter as well. Note: They preserved original spelling/style, so f's are s's.

There has been in Town confpiracy of the Negroes -- at prefent it is kept pretty private and was difcovered by one who endeavourd to difuaid them from it -- he being threatened with his life applied to juftice Quincy for protection -- they conducted in this ways -- got an <...> man to draw up a petition to the Govener telling him they would fight for him provided he would arm them and engage to liberate them if he conquerd -- and it is said that he attended so much to it as to <...> upon it -- and one <...> has been very bufy and active -- there is but little said, and what steps they will take in confequence of it I know not -- I wifh moft fincerely there was not a flave in the province -- it allways appeard a moft iniquitous fcheme to me. fight ourfelfs for what we are daily and plundering from thofe who have as good a right freedom as we have -- you know my mind upon this fubject.

Were they perfect? Far from it. Nor were they always consistent in their beliefs or actions. And it would be as large a mistake to minimize or ignore that as it would be to ignore their efforts and accomplishments.

As posted elsewhere, he signed the Alien and Sedition Acts. She apparently supported that.
http://www.galegroup.com/free_resources/whm/bio/adams_a.htm

As first lady, Adams maintained a mostly conservative stance. For example, she vigorously supported the Alien and Sedition Acts. These four acts, passed by Congress and signed by President Adams, placed restrictions on aliens who wanted to become citizens, treated aliens as enemies in times of war, and censured the press. These acts proved to be extremely unpopular with the public and were used against John in his bid for reelection.

I think it's important to acknowledge and celebrate the good they accomplished and also to hold them to account for where they failed or were wrong.

[misanthrope]

55. I agree completely with your last statement...

...but we have plenty of humans elevated to objects of worship in our history without adding to the pantheon.

[ellie]

15. It was really good.

I am looking forward to the rest of it.

[Blue_In_AK]

18. Our founders put us to shame, don't they?

What happened to us?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

22. My dear Blue...

My thoughts exactly...

I am ashamed of what we have become...:(

[orleans]

19. i loved john adams in 1776 the musical.

too bad i can't afford hbo

[fishwax]

20. I don't have HBO, but I'm looking forward to seeing it on DVD

It looks good :)

[BlueIris]

63. Do you have a friend you can mooch off of?

It's so excellent.

[OneBlueSky]

24. great series . . . but does anyone else have a hard time getting past . . .

David Morse's prosthetic nose in his role as George Washington . . . I find it a little disconcerting every time he's on screen . . .

[maine_raptor]

25. Great Series

I'm putting this one on my "To Buy" list when it comes out (Already have "From the Earth to the Moon" and "Band of Brothers".)

I did notice a couple of things. First, If I recall correctly, Adams' farm was in Milton, Mass. Thus he would have been hard pressed to ride from there to Concord after the battle and then back all in one day.

Second, I don't think the flags they showed at the reading of the Declaration of Independence were in existence at that time; they came later in the war.

Other than those minor points, it very well done and worth the time to view.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

32. No, the Adams family farm was in Braintree.

As for the flags, I really don't know. The two opening episodes were terrific. Let's hope the rest of the series follows its lead.

[bicentennial_baby]

44. Correct! As I live in Quincy, which used to be part of Braintree

We're the City of Presidents! Both John and John Quincy, as well as their wives are in the family tomb at United First Parish Church, which I can see from right where I'm sitting on my couch. :)

Also, we have this structure, Abigail Adams' cairn, which marks the site from which she watched Charlestown burn during the Battle of Bunker Hill:



It's pretty neat living in a place with so much history.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

64. I've always wanted to visit the Boston area.

I'm a real history geek and I'm sure I would be in seventh heaven.

[Lex]

72. Abigail Adams' cairn? Wow.

I knew that she and the children watched part of the Battle of Bunker Hill so when I saw it play out in the movie last night, I was expecting it, but still it nearly made my heart stop. And then later when she sees the injured soldiers passing by afterward, it was incredibly sad.

[bicentennial_baby]

76. Yes, there's a Wiki entry about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abigail_Adams_Cairn

And about 2 blocks down the street from our apartment is John Adams' birthplace:



And one street over is the Quincy mansion:



I LOVE living in a city with so much history, so well preserved. :hi:

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

26. So far, it is brilliant. Next Sunday isn't soon enough. nt

[Penndems]

27. I can't encourage everyone enough to watch this mini-series

Paul Giamatti is an absolutely inspired choice to portray John Adams. Laura Linney is just outstanding as Abigail Adams.
In fact, the entire cast is superb.

Parts Three and Four will be shown next Sunday night. Parts One and Two are going to be running all week on HBO. They're also available on HBO On Demand.

[zonkers]

56. Good to hear. Some reviews were very negative.

[Penndems]

77. If Tom Shales of The Washington Post liked "John Adams", it must be good!

n/t

[K Gardner]

30. Yes, it was so well-done, I'm hooked !

[Wednesdays]

33. Indeed he should be given his due respect

"His face isn't on Mount Rushmore. There is no memorial to him in Washington," says historian David McCullough. "It's disgraceful, because except for George Washington - and I'm not the only historian or biographer who has said this - there was no more important American in the whole Revolutionary era than John Adams."

I can't say for sure why Adams isn't more well-known for his contributions, but two words come to mind: Massachusetts radical (which are dirty words in BushCo's Murika).

Looking forward to watching the series.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

35. I actually think it was the Alien and Sedition Act,

but what do I know. That wasn't exactly his finest hour.

[alcibiades_mystery]

36. I thought the portrayal of Edward Rutledge was very strange

He was played as an effeminate dandy, even going so far as to do an almost "talk-to-the-hand" drag queen routine at one point.

Maybe somebody with more chops in this historical area can help me out here, but I thought it was ridiculous. In fact, all those opposed to the resolution had some "failing" or departure from traditional tropes of masculinity. It was a little troubling.

[misanthrope]

41. Occam's Razor...

...It was likely a choice made by the actors or the director.

This series might be based on a work by a historian, but don't completely remove your "skeptic specs" because it is still Hollywood-ized.

[alcibiades_mystery]

46. I never claimed otherwise

It's still a troubling decision that speaks to underlying beliefs.

People don't make (aesthetic, representational) decisions in a vacuum.

[Lex Talionis]

78. Damn right about that. Hollywood has its on version of history.

I'm waiting for a band of women freedom fighters, riding in and saving Washington. All the time mowing down Redcoats with repeating muskets and throwing knives. Most of ya should get the joke.

[imax2268]

48. I saw the first two parts last nite...

man what a good show...I hope everyone is watching this...

[suston96]

49. I didn't realize the enormous effort by Adams in getting the resolution for independence passed.

Edited for possible spoilers......

Wow!

[Occulus]

62. If you want to post a spoiler, post it in white.

Like this:

This is an example of spoiler text.

Highlight the white text to read the spoiler.

(This assumes your web browser defaults to a white backing for this and other pages, and not a gray one.)

[DiverDave]

70. Pretty cool...

I like the secret writing, and I dig the show...

[Yavin4]

51. What Do You Think John Adams, et al, Would Have Thought of Bush?

All that hard work, pain, and sacrifice led to monkey brains as president.

[Blue_In_AK]

59. George Bush is disgraceful...

and we Americans have let our founders down by not being more vigilant.

[Lex Talionis]

66. I believe they would all be for storming the whitehouse. n/t

[bullwinkle428]

67. In certain ways, he may have actually admired him...

:scared:

Thom Hartmann presents...the "darker" side of John Adams:

"Many Americans are suggesting that the Patriot Act (and its proposed "improvements" in Patriot II) is totally new in the experience of America and may spell the end of both democracy and the Bill of Rights. History, however, shows another view, which offers us both warnings and hope.

Although you won't learn much about it from reading the "Republican histories" of the Founders being published and promoted in the corporate media these days, the most notorious stain on the presidency of John Adams began in 1798 with the passage of a series of laws startlingly similar to the Patriot Act.

It started when Benjamin Franklin Bache, grandson of Benjamin Franklin and editor of the Philadelphia newspaper the Aurora, began to speak out against the policies of then-President John Adams. Bache supported Vice President Thomas Jefferson's Democratic-Republican Party (today called the Democratic Party) when John Adams led the conservative Federalists (who today would be philosophically identical to GOP Republicans). Bache attacked Adams in an op-ed piece by calling the president "old, querulous, Bald, blind, crippled, Toothless Adams."

To be sure, Bache wasn't the only one attacking Adams in 1798. His Aurora was one of about 20 independent newspapers aligned with Jefferson's Democratic-Republicans, and many were openly questioning Adams' policies and ridiculing Adams' fondness for formality and grandeur."

http://www.thomhartmann.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=42&Itemid=120

[misanthrope]

68. Excellent article**nm

**

[katty]

58. really good!

[suston96]

60. Just did a search for the "Adams Chronicles" shown on PBS years ago....

Must be many orders as it is being re-released and will not start shipping until May, 2008.

[BlueIris]

61. I FLOOOOOOVED it. (And before it, I was pissed that my roommates re-upped HBO for this.)

HBO is very, very addictive. Highly. Extremely. I have been concerned about my ability to be productive with this new distraction around. But "John Adams"...just might be worth the risk. It was greeeaaat.

[xxqqqzme]

65. Remember too - the oldest son

becomes President John Quincy Adams

[Lex]

71. I had to look up what became of Charles and Nabby too.

I'm kind of hooked now for sure. :)

[MasonJar]

74. My hero, Thomas Jefferson, could not stand Adams.

[Lex]

75. And they both hated Alexander Hamilton. nt

[Wednesdays]

79. But they frequently corresponded until their deaths

:shrug:
So, I don't think I'd characterize their relationship as "not standing" one another. Political rivalry? Sure. But there certainly was mutual respect and no hatred...otherwise, they wouldn't have continued any contact whatsoever once they retired from public office.

"And even should the cloud of barbarism and despotism again obscure the science and liberties of Europe, this country remains to preserve and restore light and liberty to them. In short, the flames kindled on the 4th of July, 1776, have spread over too much of the globe to be extinguished by the feeble engines of despotism; on the contrary, they will consume these engines and all who work them."

--Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to John Adams, September 12, 1821

(Eerie, too, how they both died on the exact day of the 50th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.)

[Lex]

80. HBO is running "The Making Of" about this mini-series too.

Really interesting behind the scenes stuff.

Behind the scenes of HBO's John Adams, an epic seven-part HBO Films miniseries event about the legendary former president.

Schedule here:
http://www.hbo.com/apps/schedule/ScheduleServlet?ACTION_DETAIL=DETAIL&FOCUS_ID=664475

[DesertRat]

81. I enjoyed the "Making Of" show as well

When I was watching the other night, I couldn't help but think about what Adams and the other founding fathers would think if they could see who is currently the leader of this nation.