Why do some people here think "paying for it" is so terrible?

[raccoon]

As long as coercion isn't involved, I think what two consenting adults do is OK, whether it involves payment or not.

"Paying for it" is preferable to nagging, pressuring, or coercing somebody else into sex just because somebody's horny.

[Midlodemocrat]

1. I think the notion is that by 'paying for it', you are in fact

subjugating that person. That doing 'it' without pay would not be plausible, and therefore it must be a financial transaction. Kind of like the old adage, 'the customer is always right'.

[Warpy]

15. Well, some men especially have a hard time respecting

any woman who'd let him do "that" to her. If a transaction of money for service is involved, she's doubly sullied.

As for men who use such services, I can see why they'd use hookers instead of taking the time and trouble to have an affair. Affairs are dangerous to marriages and happy single lifestyles. Renting sex offers no emotional threat and little physical threat if the services are with a seasoned pro who knows how to protect herself and her customers.

I've always been in favor of legalization. Keeping it illegal benefits only defense lawyers and pimps.

[MedleyMisty]

18. Going to a prostitute would certainly be dangerous for my marriage

I don't care if my husband pays someone or not - if he ever touches another woman it's over.

But then I don't call myself heterosexual or homosexual. I say I'm monosexual - gender doesn't really matter to me, but monogamy is everything.

[Warpy]

19. IF you found out about it

You're not likely to if he goes to a pro. You are likely to if it's an affair with a lot of emotional baggage.

[uppityperson]

32. So the problem would not be if he paid for it, but if he had sex with someone else?

[Triana]

94. Yep. That'd do it for me. Not to mention the lies and dishonesty about it...

..if he screwed someone else and told the truth, he'd never touch me again - broken commitment - there may be a salvageable relationship with trust intact - but it would NOT include physical intimacy.

If he screwed someone else and lied or didn't tell me, exposing me unknowingly to STDs etc. I'd never trust him again - broken trust. NOTHING left there - no relationship salvageable from that. A man who would do that has NO respect for me and doesn't deserve my trust or anything else from or with me.

If his penis is important enough to him to destroy a relationship, so be it. Nothing I can do about that. It's HIS "choice". AND my choice NOT to tolerate it - and MY choice to set him out to the curb once he's done it.

What would happen if WOMEN paid for it? Would MEN like that if their wives/girlfriends/SOs were sleeping around - paying gigolos for sex or just having affairs?

NOOOOOOOOOO...most of them wouldn't -- but they expect women to put up with men doing it!

HUGE double-standard there. Always has been. It's OK for men but NOT for women. Does it go both ways? Rarely.

[peace13]

2. I don't care if someone pays for it.

I think he owes it to his wife to keep his disease ridden body off of her if he makes that choice though. In this case the guy had been jailing people for the same thing he was doing...now I think that is creepy. I would not have resigned until the other 50 Rthuglican perverts that have been arrested for sex crimes did. Go figure.. Peace, Km

[raccoon]

3. I agree with you about Spitzer. But in general, I was referring to. nt

[peace13]

5. In general I think disease is a big issue.

For the payee and the spouse that may be a recipient as well. Other than that I say knock yourself out, if mommy won't do the spankin' find someone that will. Peace,Kim

[mondo joe]

4. Because DU has the same Puritan streak FR has, and some people think "choice" is limited to abortion

but nothing else you may choose to do with your own body.

[CTyankee]

6. But people are coerced and damaged by prostitution. You should read

Nicholas Kristoff's column in today's NY Times http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&oref=slogin

Kristoff once bought the victimless crime argument but now doesn't, after doing his research which I have been following for several years in the Times.

Note what he says about the fallout in legalization of prosititution in Holland vs. Sweden. Interesting stuff here.

[mondo joe]

7. People are coerced and damaged in many ways. All the more reason for legal status

and protection, just like abortion, drug use and a host of other choices I believe should be legal.

[CTyankee]

26. What did you think about what Amsterdam found out from legalizing prostitution?

And how did you feel about the different approach that Sweden took?

What is interesting, Mondo, is that here are countries that actually did what you are advocating, and what happened as a result was not good. Can you offer your thoughts about what the article tells us?

[mondo joe]

28. My thoughts are that one person had an opinion which is interesting,

and may include factual data, but is beside the point.

I am pro choice on abortion because I think it's up to every person to decide whatto do with their body, and it's not my place to second guess them.

I feel similarly about drug use, and about prostitution.

Also, in a prostitution parallel: it has always existed and always will, so I want it to be as safe and legal as it can be.

There are different ways to do that - if the US ever does it may come up with its own regulatory system which doesn't exist in any other model. But it probably will never happen anyway.

[CTyankee]

35. But Kristoff has offered an example in a country that is far from Puritanical

about sex and is only reporting what happened when they legalized prostitution. This was not the "model" of which you were speaking. If a sexually open and socially progressive country encounters these very ugly problems, I think we can take a second look at all of our assured arguments or at least give us pause. Here we see real victims of coercion and abuse.

As to the comparison with abortion, we are talking about a medical issue (or it should be). While public health is a concern in both instances, legalization has had a beneficial effect in terms of the victimization and possible death of women seeking abortions: their very health could be threatened with illegal abortions.

Perhaps Sweden has the better idea: prostitution itself is legal, buying a prostitute is not. What do you think?

[mondo joe]

37. Since you asked:

What I think is that everyone should have the right to do with their body as they choose - even things other people consider harmful. As a point of comparison: People harm themselves with too much booze, but I think that's up to them.

As to my earlier point about abortion, it is indeed a medical issue. But it's also a privacy issue, and privacy is the legal basis for Roe v Wade.

I understand the opinion of what happened in the Netherlands - I'd say we should develop a model that takes into account how their went wrong. You can look at any number of policies that had different outcomes based on the specifics.

All that said I still doubt it's going to happen in the US. We're getting more authoritarian, not less.

If the US were to adopt the Swedish model I'd be glad for at least the half step, and for the benefit of decriminalization to the prostitutes.

[CTyankee]

38. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

It seems to me that the Dutch are struggling to find a way to accommodate their freethinking ways on the one hand about a person's sexuality and social responsibility on the other hand. You and I agree about consensual sex between adults.

Where our concern for privacy hits a real roadblock is with an individual's desire to have private, sexual relations with a kid who is procured from a poorer country of economically disadvantaged people for whom privacy and choice in the matter is moot. Are there "equals" in this equation? Are 12 year old girls (or boys for that matter) an exception? Where are the limits of one's own personal, private sexual proclivities and a respect for the health, both physical and emotional, for others who are vulnerable in our society. THAT, it seems to me, is the argument here...

[mondo joe]

42. Thank you very much for such a civil discussion. Seriously.

I don't see the conflict between privacy and people wanting to have sex with kids at all. It's illegal - appropriately - to have sex with people who can't form consent.

Privacy is never a mitigating factor in violating another's rights. Never. And that's true whether you're talking prostitution or not.

There certainly are people who are violated sexually, and that's a crime that should be aggerssively countered and prosecuted.

But that doesn't mean adults who make choices of their own free will should be barred from doing so.

[Yavin4]

50. Kristoff's Conclusions Are Incorrect

If the legalized sex trade in Amsterdam brought resulted in "a large sex industry and criminal gangs that trafficked underage girls, and so trafficking, violence and child prostitution flourished rather than dying out", then the answer is to tighten regulations and restrictions. It seems like Amsterdam's regulatory standards were laxed.

Also, notice how he conveniently left out the legal brothels in Nevada, who have none of the problems that he mentions.

[seabeyond]

53. it feeds, they feed..... on each other. that is the problem. if it was only about adults

making responsible choices yada yada.... but all this feeds into each other. there is no easy answer here.

[Yavin4]

55. There Is An Easy Answer Here. See Nevada.

They have legalized prostitution, and the women are not abused, coerced, or mistreated in any way. There are no underage girls.

Most of the problems surrounding prostitution are because it's illegal.

[CTyankee]

56. I don't think these are Kristoff's conclusions, they are what has actually happened.

You cannot really argue with that. He is only reporting them. And Holland is a very sexually liberated, socially liberal country, not one given to Puritanical impulses like we see here in the U.S. That is what is upsetting about these findings.

You have to look at the facts and square them with what you currently believe. If this is what happened in such a progressive and sexually open society, what do you make of it?

[noamnety]

101. Everyone here should have to read that article.

"She conducted a study finding that 89 percent of prostitutes urgently wanted to escape the work, and that two-thirds have post-traumatic stress disorder — not a problem for even the most frustrated burger-flipper.

The mortality data for prostitutes is staggering. The American Journal of Epidemiology published a meticulous study finding that the “workplace homicide rate for prostitutes” is 51 times that of the next most dangerous occupation for women, working in a liquor store. The average age of death of the prostitutes in the study was 34."

That men can get aroused by contributing to PTSD in women is just beyond me.

[SidDithers]

27. Exactly...

I've been amazed over the last couple days, at the opinions of posters who will defend to the death a woman's right to have an abortion, but gleefully scream "Whore!" when a woman decides she wants to use her body to make money.

Puritanism hits the nail right on the head.

Sid

[seabeyond]

51. it is not about puritan. but makes easy to condemn any an all argument to reduce to that

it is so much more. and many people are expressing all kinds of views. what it seems the sex industry is demanding is their be a respect for their decision. and what you seem to be saying is if we do not respect the person that choices to sell her body, then we are puritan.

you are wrong.

that is not a truth

but i am sure it is a truth you will live with

[defendandprotect]

76. You have to try to understand that in neither case can we say the CHOICE

is wholly made by the female . . . and that question will always remain whether we are talking
about prostitution or abortion --- or anything else that impacts female lives -- like continuing
with a job where there is sexual harassment --- or deciding to leave that job.

Many males push females to have abortions ---
this is nothing new

THAT does not mean that women are incapable of making their own valid decisions about abortion;
it simply means that like every other issue in life, males will try to dominate if they are around.

As for prostitution and pornography, there is no way to say what level of coercion may exist.

[Midlodemocrat]

79. Dude. I love you to pieces, but I don't agree. I think most

sex industry workers, especially females, would prefer to do something else.

JMHO. YMMV.

[BigDaddy44]

8. We're ALL "paying for it"

You either pay directly, or indirectly

[Bucky]

30. A friend of mine put it: "You either pay for it, or you pay and pay and pay for it"

Yet, as with driving to work in busy traffic, the short cuts always get you into more trouble.

[seabeyond]

48. i dont get this attitude to women. i have been trying recently

here on the du boards. seems so prevelent with the men here. i dont understand why there is so little between male and female that this is what you two have reduced women to.

[MrSlayer]

62. You're not a guy, that's why.

It's a guy thing. We're wired differently.

[seabeyond]

63. per husband, something guys said in highschool. if you are still saying it, you need to grow up

n/t

[MrSlayer]

65. Bah.

His saying that is part of paying for it. He knows it but will never admit it, to you anyway.

[seabeyond]

69. so.... anything loving, giving, caring is "paying" for it. i am thinkin he is right on

and you do need to grow up

[defendandprotect]

81. No male is wired to do harm to himself --- nor to do harm to females ---

[fed-up]

9. because very few women would be in that line of work if not for financial reasons

Have you never heard of "self-pleasuring"?

How many here think it would great if their daughter grew up to be a "call girl".

How many lives are destroyed by this harmless "profession"?

Why is it that more men than women "need" these services?

[Feron]

43. Well if it weren't for financial reasons..

people wouldn't be doing a lot of jobs like cleaning public toilets. What is demeaning is in the eye of the beholder.

As long as the prostitute is in the profession willingly, an adult, can choose the john, and can dictate the terms then I don't see the problem. I certainly don't look down on people that sell sex.

Some people want companionship and sex without the trappings of a relationship. There's nothing wrong with that.

And while I wouldn't be thrilled if my daughter wanted to be a porn star or call girl, I would support her and help her navigate the industry.

Of course prostitution isn't for everyone. I also support helping women and men who no longer want to be in the industry.

It would be interesting to see how many women used prostitutes.

[CTyankee]

57. But why wouldn't you be PROUD that your daughter is a porn star or a prostitute?

YOu are equating it with a choice, but interestingly one that is "cleaning public toilets." So I have to wonder what you REALLY think about prostitution! Uh, is there just a little bit of hesitation in your post when you talk about your own daughter?Why, if that is just a matter of her choice, you know, like whether to major in poli-sci or biology at college?

[readmoreoften]

78. Jumpy much? The poster said s/he wouldn't be "thrilled" not wouldn't be "proud".

And they didn't say that prostitution 'was' cleaning public toilets, they were just making the point that people don't always get to have thrilling jobs. Sometimes people take jobs that other people assume are demeaning. And sometimes people take jobs that they think are demeaning. I don't see any 'hesitation' in the person's post when talking about their own daughter. They seemed pretty blunt and clear-cut about their position.

You know, you don't have to be a prostitute to have sex with men you don't love for reasons other than love and desire. I've known plenty of straight women who are 'miserable bar sluts' who go home with myriad men to 'punish themselves' or who 'punish themselves' after for having sex with strange men. I also know women who very joyfully have sex with lots of men for free--sometimes even more than one at a time--who are totally well-adjusted, and who have no desire for a relationship. So what? I've known women who prostituted for drugs and who were a mess. I've known women who prostituted their way through college and who are perfectly well-adjusted. One is a Unitarian minister now.

The 'sex industry' isn't any more of a unified industry than the 'restaurant industry' is. You can't connect a high end call girl in Paris or NY or a highly paid dominatrix in NY with a heroin-addicted street hooker in Miami or a child forced into prostitution in Thailand. You just can't. No more than you can connect the 'night club industry' with the 'strip club industry' because both are full of men wearing two much cologne trying to get laid and women with blonde hair and spray-on tans acting coy. No more than you can connect McDonalds with a Tavern on the Green or a Vegetarian Sandwich Shop in Fresno with a taco cart in Mexico City.

Personally, I think being a street hooker is worse than cleaning toilets (often doesn't pay much better either.) But I think being a porn star or a high-end call girl and most certainly a dominatrix are far better jobs--and no less socially redeemable--than stock broker, defense contractor, re-insurer, HMO manager, union-busting lawyer, corporate lawyer, environmental points dealer, or countless other positions.

Most work sucks. So what.

I'd MUCH rather my daughter be a prostitute than a number of jobs.

[bluedawg12]

97. I think life get's harder as the girls get older and make less money

or settle for more risky activities and where do they go when they are 45?

[KharmaTrain]

10. Convenience...

I'm sure Spitzer felt he was a very busy man...always on the go and time management meant a lot. When he needed to get his rocks off or feel sexy or whatever thrill this gave him, he also had the means to get his sex "to order"...the longtime specialty of the world's oldest profession.

He wasn't looking for a date here, or even a return engagement...it was just another night in a hotel room and I imagine the movie selection wasn't that good.

Say what you will about prostitution...and I'm along with those that believe it should be legal and safe, not some political or criminal tool, and there's an argument to be made that better to be with a professional who takes care of herself rather than some cheapie in the alley. Legislate it all you want, it won't go away...and I'd bet its bigger than ever in our no-deposit, no-return society.

[notadmblnd]

11. Beats me.. the way I figure it, you pay for it one way or the other anyway

Whats the difference if it's cash or gifts or marriage?

[mondo joe]

12. Because if someone pays for your date before you have sex you can still pretend there

was no exchange for sex.

[KharmaTrain]

13. 30 Years Later...

I can say I've been paying for my marriage for all these years, but my wife can claim the same thing. I guess you'd call that a "trade out". If a marriage only revolves around sex, it's not much of a marriage...or relationship for that matter.

Again...it's no deposit, no return. And it's an equal opportunity activity now. I keep chuckling about the reaction of one of the other clients turns out to be a she.

[seabeyond]

82. i appreciate your post

i wonder about those that say this, as you can see thru out this thread. i have to believe that most men dont see it as an insult to the woman they supposedly love cherish and respect, that they just say it knee jerk reaction without much thought. just something to chuckle at with the guys

[madokie]

14. I thank my penis every day that I am not being coersed into accepting money for my services

Me a recovering southern Baptist thinks nothing of it if money changes hands in love making or physical release of whatever one cares to call it. It has no effect on me one way or the other so it is none of my business what someone's elses do with their parts or their money.;-)

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

16. I'm a gal and I have no problem with that

On college campuses, I have witnessed plenty of girls sleeping with many men while they were drunk, etc. How is that any more self-respecting than choosing to sleep with men in exchange for money? I have some knowledge of the escort business, from a friend of a friend. She was in no way coerced by her customers, earned a good amount of money and did it because she liked to have sex and preferred to at least make a profit instead of bar-hopping or frat-hopping like many of our other classmates.

[sarcasmo]

17. Because our country is so uptight about sex.

[seabeyond]

46. is it? i am seeing that it is more an obsessive unhealthiness. male/female have been reduced

to just this and simply this. sex

[sarcasmo]

64. Go to Europe and tell me we aren't uptight about sex.

[stillcool]

20. I have a problem..

with the lack of choices that lead to using your body to exist. I'm sure there are women that enjoy providing sex for a price, but I have not met them. Those women I've known that sold their bodies broke my heart.

[riderinthestorm]

25. I've worked in/with women's shelters for decades

and I wholeheartedly agree with this. I haven't met a prostitute yet that enjoyed it, or who wouldn't choose something different for their "career". It's the underlying attitude in our society towards women that needs to change and then perhaps you or I won't get our hearts broken so often.

Peace.

[Yavin4]

52. The Scandinavian Countries Have Strong Equal Rights Protections for Women

They have public day care service, national health care, mandatory equal pay for equal work, free national education, and some nations even have a majority of female legislatures in their government.

Guess what else they have, prostitution.

[stillcool]

68. What does that have to do...

anything? What does health care have to do with why women turn to prostitution? I am not familiar with women in Sweden who turn to prostitution. However the American women that I know personally, that have sold their bodies, got their start in life in one of the categories listed below:

• As of May 2006, an estimated 1,600 American children have lost a parent(s) to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
• Each year around 300,000 children are temporarily removed and 65,000 to 70,000 of those children are ultimately taken from their parents forever, according to the Dept. of Health and Human Services.
• In 2004, 532,000 children were in foster care, doubling the number
from 1997. Of those 532,000 only 129,000 had been cleared for adoption.
• In 2000, 1.5 million U.S. children had an incarcerated parent. Between 1990-2001, the number of women in prison increased by 106%.
• Between 1992-2002, the number of infants and toddlers entering foster care increased by 110%.
• The rate of children in foster care increased from 4.7 for every 1,000 U.S. children in 1980 to 7.7 in 2000.
• In 1993, more than 60% of the homeless population in NYC municipal shelters were former foster youth. In a 1994 survey, 36.2% of homeless individuals reported a history of foster care.
http://www.theorphansociety.org/libliterature.asp

• In 2000, 1.5 million U.S. children had an incarcerated parent. Between 1990-2001, the number of women in prison increased by 106%.
• In 1995, 12% of children in foster care had not received routine health care. 90% had not received services to address developmental delays.
• Between 1992-2002, the number of infants and toddlers entering foster care increased by 110%.
• In 1993, more than 60% of the homeless population in NYC municipal shelters were former foster youth.
• According to a 1999 report, less than 50% of foster youth had graduated from high school, compared to 85% of the general population.
• In 2000, of 732 mid-western foster care youths, nearly 52% had lived in three or more foster homes and had moved schools.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are more than half a million children and youth in the U.S. foster care system, a 90% increase since 1987.Three of 10 of the nation’s homeless are former foster children.
A recent study has found that 12-18 months after leaving foster care:
27% of the males and 10% of the females had been incarcerated
33% were receiving public assistance
37% had not finished high school
50% were unemployed
Children in foster care are three to six times more likely than children not in care to have emotional, behavioral and developmental problems,
---80 percent of prison inmates have been through the foster care system.
* 872,000 children and youth were confirmed victims of abuse or neglect in the United States in 2004.

Children are 11 times more likely to be abused in State care than they are in their own homes.
http://fostersurvivor.netfirms.com/statistics.shtml

- Increasing numbers of young people have been
placed in adult jails where they are at risk of assault, abuse, and death.
Currently, 40 states permit or require that youth charged as adults be placed pre-trial in an adult jail, and in some states they may be required to serve their entire sentence in an adult jail. According to the National Council on Crime and Delinquency, since 1990 the incarceration of youth in adult jails has increased 208%.
http://www.campaign4youthjustice.org/Downloads/NEWS/JPI014Consequences_Summary.pdf

In 1985 one out of every 320 Americans were in jail.
In 1995 one out of every 167 Americans were in jail.
Between1980 and 1994, the number of people in federal and state prisons increased 221%.
Today, 2 million Americans are in prison.
1.2 million are African-American men.

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/stats_research/afcars/statistics/entryexit2005.htm
Foster Care in the Year 2020 (if nothing changes in child welfare trends)
Children who will experience the foster care system Over 9,000,00014
Children who will age out of the foster care system 300,00015
Foster youth aging out of the system that will experience homelessness 75,00016
Foster youth aging out of the system that graduate from college 9,00017
Number of children killed by abuse or neglect 22,50018
http://www.casey.org/MediaCenter/MediaKit/FactSheet.htm

Nationwide, researchers, practitioners, and policymakers are increasingly focusing on a growing tragedy—large numbers of youth with mental health problems becoming involved in the juvenile justice system. A recent study by the National Center for Mental Health and Juvenile Justice
found approximately 70% of the youth in residential juvenile justice settings meet criteria for at least one mental health disorder(Shufelt &Cocozza, 2006).

[ourbluenation]

21. If you're single have at it, if you're in a relationship & you have to sneak around that's terrible

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. It certainly renders the question of consent moot.

Accepting the roll of c-notes is unambiguous.

[Javaman]

23. Because we all live in an illusionary society based upon very strange

christian principles that sex is bad and if you have to pay for it, you are the worst kind of perv because you "need" sex.

As human animals, we all need sex. Period.

[El Pinko]

24. I don't really care one way or the other - it's a matter between the spouses - BUT

BUT - Spitzer was a hard-ass law-and order attorney general and governor.

He set the bar then broke the rules himself, so that's the breaks.

If he had been a freewheeling guy, running on legalizing sex-work laws, decriminalizing pot, etc. there would be no grounds to really attack him on - he might have gotten prosecuted, but he wouldn't have needed to resign because the behavior would have been consistent with his rhetoric.

Of course it's ludicrous that law enforcement spends one iota of energy on a victimless crime like consensual adult prostitution.

[Mountainman]

29. For you not so bad. I would not pay for it, first I am happily married and second I would miss the

money after.

[Bucky]

31. Yet....

the love of money is the root of all evil. In its odd way, prostitution may be a way to atain salvation.

[Mountainman]

36. It's not so much the love of money but what it can do, purchase things.

The root of all unhappiness is the desire for things such as a nice piece of ass. Yet it doesn't last and soon you are back at it. The not lasting part makes you suffer.

I will talk a little Buddhism here. One of the five precepts is to not misuse sex. Adultery would be a misuse of sex.

Now these are not rules like in Christianity that if you break them you will suffer in the after life but rather doing or not doing something is a cause and the effect is the karma that is brought about. Misusing sex brings about bad karma, such as an unhappy wife or an unhappy john who is out the money or who will need a sexual fix again and again. An end to this bad karma is what I would seek. If you spend your life creating bad karma it has to have some negetive effect on you. Is the pleasure worth the pain? Maybe so, maybe so. Maybe the prostitute is feeling bad also I don't know but if so it's also karma. Why feel bad when you don't have to?

Just look at the karma Spitzer has caused.

[seabeyond]

45. i live that way. that is how i see. why it doesnt work, from my perspective

but then also is just another lesson, opportunity. now that is not saying all paying for sex is bad. there is a higher in all things. and can be in this too. but much of it isnt.

[treestar]

33. If Spitzer were on those anti-depressants that lower sex drive

and it came out in the media, would that be worse? If not, he'd have done better to take them.

Even if there is nothing wrong with paying for it, so far there is not much hope that U.S. society will accept it.

If the US had a more relaxed attitude regarding affairs, like the Europeans, this might not have made much difference.

Spitzer also would have been better off having an affair - at least the woman in the case would not come under investigation for it, and would have her own motives for not revealing it.

[uppityperson]

34. Sex isn't just about orgasms, but some people have that confusion.

Sex isn't just about orgasms. It can be just about an orgasm, or it can be about a lot more. Power, control, love, being close to someone you want to be close to, making money, having a place to live, having a trophy partner, showing you care, showing you don't care.

For all the thought that people spend on sex, that moment of "woohoo omg" orgasm isn't that long. Paying for sex, whether an anonymous prostitute or a partner who will give you a meal or a place to stay... I'd rather have the profession legalized and regulated. I try to not cast asparagus at someone who pays for sex, since there are many reasons.

[Elidor]

39. Because there are too many people giving it away for free!

:bounce:

[MrSlayer]

40. You always pay for it, one way or another.

Very rarely are you getting anything for free.

[seabeyond]

44. you poor male. so picked on your gender. so abused..... pathetic n/t

[MrSlayer]

49. I never said I was abused or picked on.

Just that you always pay for it one way or the other. It's the way it is and has always been. What's the big deal?

[CTyankee]

59. Based on your words, I get the feeling that you have never been a rewarding intimate relationship

that is monogamous, such as marriage. "Pay" is not a word I associate with such a relationship. "Respect, love, honor, cherish" are words I associate with such a relationship, whether it is a marriage or a relationship without official vows.

Shame on you for trying to devalue what those of us with such deeply enriching relationships have. I am so sorry for your situation...

[seabeyond]

60. all i can do is feel sorry for the man too. n/t

[MrSlayer]

61. Don't feel sorry for me.

I've been in a fantastic relationship with my wife for 16 years. This doesn't make things any less than they are though. Your gender is undeclared but I'm guessing you're a woman and you don't realize your husband feels the same way I do and when he's out with the boys they all express the same sentiments. It's a guy thing. It doesn't mean we don't respect, love, honor and cherish our wives/girlfriends. I certainly do, but why do you think we put up with ridiculous expenditures such as candles, potpourri and shoes you don't need and shit like that?

[CTyankee]

67. Oh, dear god, this is about candles, potpouri and shoes?

Please tell me about some REAL issues. If my marriage was in trouble because of such nonsense I would think I'd have more serious issues going on underneath...

Let me tell you, my husband had to face my serious complications after my abdominal surgery last spring. He worked full time and had to hold down the household and do double duty while doing his job and visiting me every day at the hospital for 2 months. When I got home he still shopped for all the groceries and cooked dinner each night. That was a strain on him. I couldn't do much as I had to have a visiting nurse every day to dress my incision wound.

We "pay" in different ways for being with one partner. My partner and I learned the "cost" very well...

[seabeyond]

70. respect, love, honor and cherish our wives/girlfriends... no, simply about putting them down

insulting them, to feel manly

[defendandprotect]

74. Men continue to display a strong need to dominate and sex is a primary way to do it ---

look at the use of RAPE as a weapon of war --- !!!
Always has been --- !!!


Hard to believe but here in NJ we've just had another one of those incidents -- this time in Montclair -- where "high schoolers are accused of raping a 16 year old special education student with a broomstick in township home" . . . !!!!

Three males, 16 to 18 years of age, forced her into a sex act and then sexually assaulted her with a broomstick ---

[seabeyond]

75. boy, .... and they just might have to "pay" for it.

"strong need to dominate and sex is a primary way to do it"

yes, i believe they are "using" it. that is why i am bothered with so much of the male attitude i am seeing on the board that was not there a decade ago and more. the less women "need" man, the more we will see i believe.

[defendandprotect]

80. Also MSM and movies have tried to push males to renew violence vs women ---

to renew domination themes ---

They also, if you have noticed, try to make females out as highly aggressive --- even physically so.

In general, they have tried to make violence more mainstream ---
this, of course, is always played against younger generations --

but especially to destroy any real respect for females --

They NY Times --- just as an aside --- continues to make women disappear ---
almost never seen on the front page of the NY Times -- occasionally once or twice a year as victims.

I was looking at the NJ Star Ledger the other day --- quite the same thing where students are shown
doing a school project --- but all the photos are of males . . . you can barely see a female
in the backgrounds of the three or more photos!!

This, without doubt, impacts the self-esteem of females in a negative way --- and over inforces the importance of males to males ---

These things don't happen without manipulation --

[On the Road]

41. The Two Sides Seem to be Frequently Talking Past Each Other

You are asking about the personal morality of paying for a prostitute. Many of the replies have to do with social policy and overall social impact of illegal (or legal) prostitution.

It is akin to responding to someone who asks "Is it OK to get drunk?" with "Drunkenness leads to countless wife-beatings, traffic accidents, and serious diseases." To me, that's immaterial if I want to stay home and drink a six-pack one evening.

[NaturalHigh]

47. Consenting adult can do what they want together, IMO.

I don't understand the Taliban mentality of people who are so uptight about sex. Now, you can argue the point that cheating on the spouse is wrong (and I believe it is), but the money-for-sex game just doesn't concern me.

Paying $4,000 an hour for sex, though, in my opinion, is just crazy. Still, if you've got the money and choose to spend it that way, that's your business.

[Yavin4]

54. People Get Upset Over Prostitution Because It Conflicts With Their Morality

And they cannot accept that other people have a different view of morality than their own.

For me, it always comes down to "CONSENTING ADULTS" and "NO INJURIES TO OTHER PEOPLE".

[defendandprotect]

72. It's not "morality" --- it's exploitation --- and possibility of coercion . . .

How is someone consenting when they have been reduced to the level of selling their bodies --- ???

[mondo joe]

73. Most people sell the service of their bodies for pay.

That's life - whether you're a prostitute, a bellboy, a bike messenger, a construction worker or most jobs.

[defendandprotect]

77. So YOU see no difference between your body being used to sexually service another

human being --- or being a bike messenger --- ?????

[mondo joe]

85. I don't grant magical power to sex. Or to fetuses. It's up to the individual.

In most cases you're being paid to use your body in service to another.

It's up to the individual to decide what they find acceptable.

[defendandprotect]

86. I don't think that most people would find no difference between putting

their body out their sexually and being a bike messenger ---

True, when you enter someone's employment you are giving over your brain and body in a sense --

However, not in the same sense that the physical use of your body by another human being implies ---


You seem to be suggesting that to see this as something different from any other job is to assign some "magical power" to sex . . . ??? In what other job is there penetration of orifices?

And, what could possibly link this in your mind to "fetus/magical power" . . . ???

[mondo joe]

88. It doesn't matter what anyone but the individual thinks about their own body. That's what choice is

about.

You may think orifices are special magical parts of the body. Others feel differently. Again, CHOICE.

Similarly, it doesn't matter who wouldn't have an abortion - what matters is the choice of the person deciding if they want to have one.

If you don't like it, don't do it.

Choice.

[defendandprotect]

90. No . . . to consider sexual penetration the same thing as messenger service is

-- especially if the pay is the same --- is to be really out there ---

You don't have to even think about "magical parts" . . .
penetration of orifices is certainly different from riding a bike --
I think most people would get that --- !!!

Nor do I think that in abortion women are claiming "magical parts" --

[mondo joe]

91. The body is the body. You may wish to imbue some parts with special power or meaning,

but that's your doing - not an objective fact.

As I said in another thread, I had sex with a guy I wasn't into just to shut him up. I never felt degraded by it. I once applied to work at a McDonalds - THAT felt degrading.

Either way, it was someone who wanted to use my body.

[seabeyond]

92. how about this

no one is going to tell another not to prostitute their body out. or at least, i am not seeing it on this board. the bottom line i am getting is that we are to be respectful and not judge....

you can chose to call it judging, i dont, but i will give it to you instead of explaining my whole theory on judging.

abortion and prostitution. the womans choice to do with her body

i stand for the right for a woman to make the choice of aborting her fetus

i do not believe in abortion.
i do not chose abortion
i do not think it is a good choice
i think there are other more responsible choices to make
i do not respect the choice of abortion
and i stand up for the womans right to chose

and there are exceptions in everything

we are allowed to have our lines drawn on what is ok and not ok for us. it does not making me (fill in the blank of names called)because i do not respect the choice of sex whatevers.... they want to live it, be it, use it.... fine. they dont need me to "approve". so quit fighting so hard for it.

you want to insist and demand that people be able to make their choices while you demand that we are not allow to make our choice in right or wrong, good or bad, healthy or unhealthy, balanced or out of whack.

[mondo joe]

104. Okay...

"you want to insist and demand that people be able to make their choices while you demand that we are not allow to make our choice in right or wrong, good or bad, healthy or unhealthy, balanced or out of whack."

I guess I don't think I'm in a position to insist or demand. I'm advocating for respecting a boundary - but I don't see that as insisting or demanding.

Thank you for explaining your abortion stance. I think it's helpful, and I appreciate your explaining it as you did.

I'd say if in general terms I wish we'd treat other choices about what people do with their own body with the respect we generally reserve for abortion.

[seabeyond]

105. you want to clean it up. you want to make it pretty. a little red bow on it

presentable to the outside world. and that is not what this world is. it doesnt sit in the lite of day.

i really believe there is a higher in all things, good bad and ugly. so i am not looking at this as a black and white issue. cannot be seen in that way.

abortion can be done and not be hurtful. but reality is, in many many it hurts. spiritually, emotionally, it hurts. there is healing. that is grand and hopefully the woman goes on being stronger, more.... it is not something to take litely, as merely she responsible for her body.

the same goes with prostitution, stripers, selling self. there is a line one has to step over, a spiritual line when they make these choices. we all make these choices for a zillion reasons, and it is an individual journey, lessons that must be experienced....

like with abortion, this choice is likely to be hurtful both spiritually and emotionally.

i know women say not as they sit in it. they have to in order to be able to sit in it

i had stippers work for me in a dry cleaners at minimum wage telling me what a good job strippin is, how well it pays, but they couldnt do it anymore. not for any reason particularly, yet taking that hot hard job at cleaners.... there was a reason. had another screw around with my slut brother and totally fuck with a baby that is now 15 and totally missed up that i will probably have to finish raising. and i had a father fuck around on my mother after 40 years with a 25 yr old whore, (being paid to get father off) and my mom devestated killed herself day after christmas not watching her grandchildren grow up and grandchildren doing without her. i also listened to the tape this woman was on the telephone with my father and how ugly she spoke about my mother.

she was not nice. there was no purity in her motive or her job or what she was doing. it was ugliness all around

we want this to be respected, and i dont. i do not respect purposely hurting another human being. yet you suggest that makes me the bad guy, instead of people that are hurting self or others.

a person that is a drunk. i can love them, but i cannot respect the pain they cause themselves and others

a person that allows drugs to effect their lives, the same thing

[mondo joe]

108. Hm, I don't think I want any bows at all.

I want people to own their own bodies.

"like with abortion, this choice is likely to be hurtful both spiritually and emotionally."

If it hurts you, don't do it. It's not for anyone else to decide that for another.

And you can sit there and judge it all you like. And I can advocate against that.

I don't see the problem.

[seabeyond]

109. no but you ignore

that is how you tie it with the bow. i already told you i do chose not to do, and i do support a womans right. so most of your post is irrelevent. you ignore the fact that so many are going to feel the emotion and spiritual pain, look away, pretend it is not so and have it cleanly presented as own their own bodies. that is an of course. but many more of us can feel empathy for fellow man knowing when they make their choices their will be pain

we can also understand that they chose it and have to experience it and hopefully will get something from a lesson learned.

it is not so much away from what you are demanding. just taking it further in understanding than what you want. instead of surface it is much deeper.

[mondo joe]

110. Not at all.

But also, if you think it's a right, we don't have that much disagreement - if the rights are protected I'm not that concerned with how people feel about it.

I understand that sometimes our personal choices will cause us pain.

[defendandprotect]

100. Again . . . there is certainly some difference between someone renting your

time and asking you to flip hamburgers --- and someone screwing you.

Now, I'm sure there are soldiers in Iraq, who'd prefer to be directly screwed than
being where they are --- in those circumstances, I'd probably agree---!!!

[mondo joe]

103. Again, that's how YOU feel about it. You should learn the difference between YOU and OTHER PEOPLE.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

113. You are giving me an opinion from your basis of understanding ---

I am giving you mine -- that's all ---

[mondo joe]

121. Incorrect. I'm not giving value judgments or meaning, but respecting that different

people feel differently. You are assuming the meaning you imbue is universal or objective.

There's a big difference.

[cherokeeprogressive]

58. It's not THAT he paid for it, it's HOW he paid for it. n/t

[Faygo Kid]

66. Yeah, the multi-millionaire governor of New York and a 22 year old. It's power.

Why not exploit "the little people?" Hell, George W. Bush has done it for seven years.

Guess it's OK then.

[defendandprotect]

71. Because with prostitution we have no way to judge whether it is

"coercion" or not --- many women have been forced into prostitution by organized crime ---
Bada Bing! --- and many have been forced into acts they would not have otherwise done ---
and many have testified to this.

It is exploitation of females --- and the kidnapping and rape of females has only increased
with the rise of the right ---

Not that I'm saying that "nagging, pressuring, or trying to coerce" another human being into
having sex with you isn't in itself "terrible," but I do think that having to pay for it
indicates another level down.

[dysfunctional press]

83. people who are pro-choice on abortion should also be pro-choice about prostitution...

if they truly believe that a woman should be able to do as she chooses with her own body.

i'm pro-choice on both counts.

[defendandprotect]

87. Whoa . . .

It's not the same ---

In both cases a female makes up her own mind . . . but then comes the question of whether she has the freedom to enact her decision . . .

If she has decided "no," does she actually have the freedom to not work in the porn or prostitution industries? Or, is there some Soprano guy who's going to make sure that she
gets into the industry and stays there?

If she has decided "yes," on having an abortion, does she actually have the freedom to carry it out or is there some effort to prevent her? Perhaps a pharmacist who doesn't want to give her
the "Morning After" pill ---
Or perhaps some group of fundies who have shut down the women's clinic?

Of course, women's choices are valid --
but that's not the end of the line --
she has to have the opportunity to act on her freely made decisions ---

[Withywindle]

96. But NO person, woman or not, makes decisions in isolation free of outside pressures.

say I got pregnant (shudders), and I have the choice to have an abortion or not.

I have factors to weigh.
The cost of an abortion vs. the cost of a pregnancy.
The risk of my life in bearing a child vs. of having an abortion.
The risk of pain in either. (I don't like pain. At all. You bet I weight this strongly.)

Money. Always money. Money money money. (And I HAVE health insurance - it's not very good, but it's there. Imagine if I didn't.)

Time off from work to recover from an abortion vs. time off needed in carrying a pregnancy to term.

Raising a theoretical baby vs. theoretical adoption.

Mind you, everyone around me expresses their opinion. The theoretical "father," my friends, my parents, the theoretical doctors, the idea of possibly adoptive parents, etcetera.

It's my choice, but it's never going to be free of outside pressures.


The choices one faces in seeking employment? They're complicated too.

Eliot Spitzer's call girl makes more in an hour than I make in a month. A lot of my work's kind of tedious and obligatory. I've had plenty of sex that was tedious and obligatory for free! (A lot of it in longterm relationships, for that matter.) Would I take an hour of that over 50 hours a week for four weeks of what I do?

Frankly, yes.

I wouldn't be making that choice in some vacuum of feminist utopian purity, of course. But I don't get to make ANY decisions in that world, do I?

[defendandprotect]

99. True -- but the oppression of females is still felt --- strongly ---

Though my comments hit a different part of this debate than your response does --
i.e., my argument wasn't based on these normal everyday "outside pressures" ---
my argument was based on post-decision, actually having the freedom to carry out the decision.

Your debate is about decision making --- though you never get to the actual question of whether
or not a child is WANTED . . . However, I will respond to your comments:--

* If you were pregnant obviously you know the cost of an abortion is much less than the costs of
pregnancy -- you know that immediately ---

* Additionally, if it's early enough you may be able to use "Morning After" pill ---
costs are less, effects are quick ---
Certainly that doesn't require time off from work; and, in fact, neither does an abortion, usually.

* Losing your life and pain --- well, if you want the child that isn't usually too much of a consideration ---

* Baby vs adoption -- that does touch upon the decision making, but you don't take it anywhere.
Do you want a child by this particular sexual partner? Is this someone you'd want to be connected to your life by a child for the rest of your life? Would you tell him, either way?
Is the sexual partner pushing you to abort?
Sometimes the father/partner gives more than an opinion --- many males will push for an abortion.

As for adoption; Would you pine for the child for the rest of your life -- ?
Worry about what was actually happening; whether he/she were being mistreated -- ?

* Many women don't speak with a doctor before having an abortion ---
they make their own decision, unless there are risks due to age, etal in going forward with the
pregnancy.
I think RU486 does require a doctor's visit; and a follow-up.

Again -- in regard to abortion I was speaking more to oppression which keeps women from carrying
thru on their personal choices ....
When they can't get an abortion because every clinic has been shut down --
When they can't get an abortion because a pharmacist won't give them a Morning After pill ---
When a partner is physically threatening them to have or not have an abortion ---
These things still happen in women's lives . . .

As for employment ...
If you were reading the thread, you might have noticed that someone thought there was no difference between selling your body for sex and any other work --- even being a bike messenger.
Do you agree with that --- ? No difference?

ANY woman can be pushed into prostitution given the right set of financial circumstances --
Women in Afghanistan and Iraq are selling their bodies for sex in order to feed their children right now ---

As for becoming a prostitute freely -- it's possible.
Can you count on becoming a "Diamond" girl and making what Kristen makes --- ?
Who do you get caught up with in this profession --- and what if you want to leave? Can you--?
Can you rely on your assumptions what you would be expected to do and the money you would make--?
Would it be a profession free of violence, for instance --- ??

Evidently, this week, a lot of women are thinking about it as an adventurous, high paying opportunity --- !!!

Especially in regard to the world of pornography and prostitution, women don't have control;
women are the objects of exploitation.

As I've said before, there are many women in the world who are being forced into sexual slavery ---
with the rise of the right, the numbers are increasing. This is domestic and international.

[Withywindle]

111. I understand all of that BUT

Women are forced all over the world to go into sweatshop work for pennies making cheap clothes. Some are trafficked into slavery for this purpose. Some lose their eyesight over it. Some die.

It doesn't therefore follow that there's anything wrong with choosing to work as a seamstress voluntarily under better conditions and for better pay if the opportunity exists where you live, does it?

Do I personally feel it's no different than working as, say, a bike messenger? Well, that all depends on your attitude about sex. I have no trouble believing that for some people, it really isn't. Not everyone thinks casual sex is inherently degrading. (I don't.) Not everyone attaches much emotional significance to it.

[defendandprotect]

112. Wow . . ..

[seabeyond]

115. i am not thinking a mutually empowering casual sex

is at all degrading. i just want to point out. i dont think it is about causual sex. i think it is more the concept of bought and paid for. you are owned for a time.

casual sex, or the casual sex i played in for a decade, i always had a male that wanted me happy too.... not just about him, even in casual. not a prostitutes bought and paid for.

[Withywindle]

116. I see it more as being hired to perform a specific service.

Not being "owned." The person isn't paying for your mind or your psyche. It's very temporary. The obligation--the contract--ends when it's done and he leaves.

There is a very big difference between forced prostitution and the sort of high-end call girl work that Eliot Spitzer's hobby was. Call girls and escorts in better conditions like that certainly can negotiate terms and refuse certain clients altogether.

I just don't agree that sexual services are FUNDAMENTALLY different from any other kind of service in some kind of magical way. Being hired to, say, clean someone's house can be much more oppressive and much more like slavery than being hired to give a blow job. It's all in the conditions and the negotiating terms and the courtesy (or not) that exists between service provider and customer.

[seabeyond]

117. i do not think it is fundament different in a "magical" way

but i absolutely seeing it fundamentally different.

[mondo joe]

106. Absolutely. Choice extends beyond the uterus.

If you can't be trusted to make all decisions about your own body, you're not competent to make any.

[taught_me_patience]

84. Paying for it isn't that bad

but paying $4k for it is pure robbery!

[NaturalHigh]

107. No kidding.

[magellan]

89. I don't think "paying for it" is terrible. I'm just mad that I don't get paid for it too.

:P

[ironflange]

93. its really like many other things

you can pay an experienced professional or do it yourself and save money

[dysfunctional press]

98. or you could start to do it yourself, get things all messed up and have to call in the pro anyway-

and now it's going to cost you twice as much as if you had gone with the pro from the get-go.

[ironflange]

120. yeah

i hate it when that happens

[Triana]

95. It's only bad when women or Democrats do it.

For anyone else, it's A-OK.

[Greyhound]

102. Religious brainwashing. n/t

[mitchum]

114. It's not terrible, it's just...pathetic

[truebrit71]

118. If you're married and you're a man, you pay for "it" every damn day...

;-) :evilgrin:

[seabeyond]

119. another male that has to put down female to feel like a man. supposedly a female they love

honor and cherish. this is getting old. as my hubby said, .... got over that in highschool, still saying it, you need to grow up

why is it so hard for you to feel like a man, without putting down a woman?