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Blaming the Repukes for this Economy is like blaming your drug dealer for your addiction

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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:42 PM
Original message
Blaming the Repukes for this Economy is like blaming your drug dealer for your addiction
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 05:47 PM by Mike03
Sorry. I hate the Repukes as much as anyone here. But this mess started before Bush was even in office, when Greenspan began cutting interest rates down to almost nothing. Money was almost free. Americans wanted what they wanted, and many would not permit economic reality to get in their way. They borrowed, they bought, they ran up debts they could not repay. They bought houses they couldn't afford to own.

Flame me, but this is not Bush's fault. This is a banquet of irresponsibilities, starting with the Fed, the realtors, unrealistic corporate CEOs, and most of all, people like you and me that want what we want more than we have disciplined ourselves to say "No" to what we cannot afford.

We need to be honest with ourselves. We need to admit our complicity. Cascades of debt don't happen by accident.

Most Republicans are pieces of crap I would not want anything to do with, but to blame them for what is a social addiction to feeding our frenzied desires for what is not necessary in our lives is bullshit. We need to live more humbly.

We need to live more respectfully, and remember that most of us live like gluttons compared to the other 90% of our planet.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. greenspan is a repuke
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. Sorry ... you are way off ...
Most of use do not live outside our means .... under Clinton, my personal salary and my net worth SOARED ... and under bush, the salary is basically flat, and the increase in net worth is much less pronounced than under Clinton.

And I didn't change my life style.

The Bush economy is a joke. The higher up you are, the better you do. I'm above the middle, and I still do well ... but it is clear that the economic benefits of being American are slanted in favor of those who have more.

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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Thanks for your input
I will consider it.
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WHEN CRABS ROAR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. But they voted on bills, stopped other bills and ran up what will
probably be a three trillion dollar dollar debt for our grandchildren with a unjust, poorly thought out and run war.
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angstlessk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. sugar, when a president says about a depression..'you have nothing to fear but fear itsself'
compared to one after being attacked on our shores...'go shopping'..I am sorry...shit rolls downhill...it IS boosh's fault...HE is irresponsible!
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Speak for yourself.... I've never been remotely close to *middle class* in my adult life...
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 05:56 PM by jus_the_facts
...never owned my own home..haven't had health insurance since high school...driving a 20yr. old car...etc....I haven't a CLUE as to what it's like to live *less* humbly. :eyes:

...and for the record...I did CHOOSE to live an unmaterialistic lifestyle and I'm glad I don't have too far to fall when the chaos of another *depression* looms large on the horizon.
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Tempest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. The Repugs controlled Congress and could have prevented this mess
Instead they ignored calls to reform the banking and lending industry which were giving out loans to people who didn't qualify.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. both parties have happily voted for policies that have led to the looming downturn..
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
8. are you frigging kidding me?
what a joke



under clinton we made LESS money and had more to spend


under the idiot...we make more money and have less to spend


how do you explain that?
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sanjiadem Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
9. It started long before that ... and, yeah, I blame their policies
Supply-side, slash and burn, trickle down, massive debt, deregulation that made the markets more like casinos, enormous fraud and corruption, and every other trick they've done to lay waste to the middle class since Reagan. Nixon tried to start the country on the road to plunder, but Reagan and and the Revolting Republicans of 94 - 2006 really got the ball rolling. And, we've been knocked around like tenpins ever since. This is well documented.

For more current data and analysis:

http://www.cbpp.org/
http://www.ombwatch.org/
http://www.epi.org/
http://www.nationalpriorities.org/
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/domestic


But, folks have been pointing this out for years ...:

"The money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands."
Abraham Lincoln, 1864

From 1996, Article at http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-pilot/issues/1996/vp960623/06210479.htm

Rapid income increases among the richest of the rich and with a shrinking share of the economic pie for the poor have left the nation its most economically polarized since World War II, according to a U.S. Census Bureau report released last week.

The detailed look at American income trends since 1947 shows that poor and middle class families were getting a growing share of the nation's wealth until the mid-1960s, when the trend reversed.

By 1982, all progress toward equality in incomes had been wiped out. And since then, the gaps between rich and poor have widened.

State and regional figures, although not as up to date as the Census Bureau report, show the same trend in Virginia and Hampton Roads.

This may be good news for Tiffany's, but not for the nation. …

According to the Census Bureau, the richest one-fifth of American households saw their share of the nation's economic pie increase from 40.9 percent in 1970 to 46.9 percent in 1994. For the richest of the rich - the top 5 percent of families - the increase was even more dramatic. They brought home 20.1 percent of the nation's total income in 1994, up from 15.6 percent in 1970.

The share earned by the poorest one-fifth of families dropped from 5.4 percent in 1970 to 4.2 percent in 1994.

THE VIRGINIAN-PILOT, Copyright (c) 1996, Landmark Communications, Inc., Sunday, June 23, 1996
The political debate tends to revolve around taxes and tax credits as a way of redistributing income. Democrats generally favor increasing the capital gains tax, which affects the rich, and adding tax credits which would help poor families.

Republicans traditionally oppose increasing the capital gains tax, and some would like to do away with it. Their argument is that if the wealthy keep more of their money, it would be invested into the economy.


Robert Reich, President Clinton's labor secretary, has criticized the Republican economic agenda.

``There's an Alice-in-Wonderland quality to their logic,'' he said recently. ``Liberate the economy with deregulation and tax breaks for companies and the rich, they say, and all Americans will prosper. But the economy is already liberated enough to sprint merrily away from a majority of Americans. The problem is that wages are stagnant while profits surge - so how can higher profits be the whole solution?

``Something is going on here that's beyond politics,'' said Bruce Bartlett, a Senior Fellow with the National Center for Policy Analysis, a conservative public policy research organization. ``A lot of people have tended to draw the conclusion that we cut taxes in the 1980s, and the rich got richer. Here we've increased taxes in the 1990s, and they still got richer.''

However, the brief success this year of presidential candidate Patrick Buchanan, who raged against corporate excesses, pushed Republicans toward more of an acknowledgment of the problem. Bob Dole, the probable GOP nominee, addressed the issue in speeches in New Hampshire.

``Corporate profits are setting records and so are corporate layoffs,'' Dole declared. ``The bond market finished a spectacular year. But the real average hourly wage is 5 percent lower than it was a decade ago.''


From 1995, Gap in Wealth In U.S. Called Widest in West, By KEITH BRADSHER, NYTimes
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CEED61430F934A25757C0A963958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

New studies on the growing concentration of American wealth and income challenge a cherished part of the country's self-image: They show that rather than being an egalitarian society, the United States has become the most economically stratified of industrial nations.

Even traditional class societies like Britain, which have inherited large differences in income and wealth over centuries, going back to feudal times, now have greater economic equality than the United States, according to the latest economic and statistical research, much of which is to be published soon.

Economic inequality has been rising in the United States since the 1970's. Since 1992, when Bill Clinton charged that Republican tax cuts in the 1980's had broadened the gap between the rich and the middle class, it has become more sharply focused as a political issue.

Many of the new studies are based on the data available then, but provide new analyses that coincide with a vigorous debate in Congress over provisions in the Republican Contract With America.

Indeed, the drive by Republicans to reduce Federal welfare programs and cut taxes is expected, at least in the short term, to widen disparities between rich and poor.

Federal Reserve figures from 1989, the most recent available, show that the richest 1 percent of American households -- with net worth of at least $2.3 million each -- have nearly 40 percent of the nation's wealth. By contrast, the richest 1 percent of the British population has about 18 percent of the wealth there -- down from 59 percent in the early 1920's.

Further down the scale, the top 20 percent of Americans -- households worth $180,000 or more -- have more than 80 percent of the country's wealth, a figure higher than in other industrial nations.

Beast on the Rampage, Bernard Wasow, The Century Foundation, 11/28/2007
http://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=NC&pubid=1739

"U.S. wage distribution is more unequal than other countries and we do less in terms of tax and transfer policy" to cushion the disparities, said Timothy M. Smeeding, an American who is director of the Luxembourg Income Study Project. Mr. Smeeding is preparing two papers drawing international comparisons of income.

And, while housing prices in the past helped the middle class stay afloat, that is no longer the case:

Rising housing prices have increased the holdings of the British middle class and limited the growth in inequality there.

The Republicans were wrong then, and they still are wrong, now:

Republicans have argued that the overall tax-cut provisions would reduce annual tax bills by roughly equal percentages for rich and poor. Democrats say that because the annual tax bills of rich Americans are much larger, reducing them by about the same percentage means that most of the money would go to the rich rather than the poor or the middle class, further concentrating wealth and income.

‘If we don’t tax, the government can’t spend’ laid to waste …Tax cuts lead reliably not to subsequent spending cuts. Remarkably, the evidence supports the opposite conclusion about government spending: following tax cuts, empirically, government spending increases.

When conservatives abandoned their traditional commitment to balanced budgets in 1981, they required a set of ideas to justify their new commitment to tax cuts over fiscal orthodoxy. The first rationalization they offered—the claim that the economy would respond so vigorously to tax cuts that revenues actually would rise—did not stand up to the facts. So a new justification was devised: tax cuts would “starve the beast” of big government, forcing legislators to follow tax cuts with spending cuts in order to avoid fiscal chaos.

As Ronald Reagan put it in 1981, “Over the past decades we’ve talked of curtailing government spending so that we can then lower the tax burden. . . . Well, you know, we can lecture our children about extravagance until we run out of voice and breath. Or we can cure their extravagance by simply reducing their allowance.” (Ronald Reagan, Address to the Nation on the Economy, February 5, 1981)

The claim that tax cuts will force spending cuts logically contradicts the extreme supply-side argument that tax cuts will increase revenues (which was being made simultaneously in 1981). Few reputable economists ever subscribed to extreme supply-side economics, and evidence against it is so overwhelming that almost nobody in the “fact-based community” still asserts it. Instead, the “starve the beast” rationalization has become a standard defense of tax cuts.

Now, after a quarter century of fiscal mischief, during which the debt/GDP ratio has been pushed up more than forty percentage points under presidents Reagan, Bush 1, and Bush 2, this rationale for unilateral tax cuts has been reduced to shambles as well.

Going Nowhere: Workers’ Wages since the Mid-1970s
Century Foundation http://www.tcf.org/Publications/EconomicsInequality/wasow_nowhere.pdf

In the late 1990s, many observers hoped that we had finally broken free of the
slow income growth that had bogged down the American middle class for more
than two decades. Unfortunately, experience since 2000 suggests that the long
period of stagnant wages is dragging on. In marked contrast to the 1947–74
period—when wages for almost all workers were rising steadily and faster than the
inflation rate—average wages after the mid-1970s failed to grow consistently (see
Figure 1, page 2). Household incomes continued to rise somewhat fitfully over that
period, but only because family members were working more hours. The broadly
shared surge in incomes from 1996 to 2000 petered out almost as quickly as it had
begun.

What is more, with health care costs rising rapidly, employers have controlled the
growth of total compensation (which includes fringe benefits) by cutting back on
employee health care coverage. Figure 2 (see page 2) shows that, as with average
wages, total compensation levels are just slightly higher than they were fifteen
years ago.

(snipped)

The efforts of workers to improve their prospects are remarkable. Over one
generation, those who never attended college went from the great majority to a
minority of workers. As wages were falling for men with relatively little education,
men sought to increase their educational attainment. Women, on average, did even
more to improve their educational attainment.

Unfortunately, that investment of time and money in education has not enabled
workers to do any better than match their parents’ income. For example, a
substantial portion of men who have had a few year years of college will earn less
than their fathers did, even though they are better educated than their fathers
were.

In the 1990s, stable fiscal and monetary policies encouraged high rates of private
investment, and wage and income growth picked up. Since 2000, however, huge
public sector deficits and international instability appear to have derailed that
progress. But the United States is a resilient nation, and it is well within our
capacity to bring back sound fiscal policy and greater financial support for
education and training—policies that have proved to be effective at boosting
incomes across the board.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply-side_economics

The extreme promises of supply-side economics did not materialize. President Reagan argued that because of the effect depicted in the Laffer curve, the government could maintain expenditures, cut tax rates, and balance the budget. This was not the case. Government revenues fell sharply from levels that would have been realized without the tax cuts.
- Karl Case & Ray Fair, Principles of Economics (2007)




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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
10. I see, it's all Realtors' fault..
Because (WE) Realtors sold people homes that they could afford, it's OUR fault. Because the people who bought homes lost their jobs, it's OUR fault. Because corporate CEO's are under such pressure to show record profits so they can get their $10 million bonuses and so the stock will go up, and the only way they can do it is to close a plant and layoff 10,000 people, it's OUR fault. Because a previous Repug governor in Michigan stuck us with a .75 percent transfer tax, a 50% hike in sales tax, and two hikes in the gas tax, while giving HUGE tax breaks to manufacturers who left the state anyway, then lied about the $4 billion debt our state faced, it's OUR fault. By the way, the Fed raising the prime lending rate has nothing to do with mortgage interest rates. The fish stinks from the head down. When interest rates were low in the '90's and home values were going up and everyone had a JOB and we had a president who gave a shit about the average person, the country was a lot stronger than it is now. Powerful people can do a lot of sabotage to enrich their own fortunes, as we have seen. There will always be those who wish for things they cannot afford, but it's very hard to legislate self-control.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
11. Completely wrong.
Blame Republicans at the polls. They completely deserve it. They are the leadership front line of the ethos that is wrecking the American economy and national character. The leadership of Republicanism has corrupted and mangled it until it is a curse. Republicanism now means malignant neglect, self-indulgence, ignorance worship, and every ill that springs from these core corruptions. Punish Republicans for Republicanism the ethos and watch how fast America regains its strength.
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
12. I was living well within my means before Bush Co, the Republicans and enough
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 06:19 PM by 1monster
compliant Democrats decided to pass that "help America pay its bills" bankruptsy reform went through, even with the outrageous costs after insurance for my husband's hospitalization for cardio-vascular disease.

Now, we are in over our heads without adding more credit spending, even as we lower and lower our life style. (We've kept two luxuries: cable teleivision and the Internet.)

Home and health insurance costs have risen to be really unaffordable.

The amount of money I used to spend on groceries for two weeks now only buys enough food to last four or five days.

When Bush took the White House, I was putting ten to fifteen dollars in my gas tank a week. Then it was twenty dollars a week even though I was driving a whole lot less miles per week than in the past. Today, I put fifteen dollars in my tank two or three times a week and am driving even less. (I drive the same car... it gets about twenty to twenty-five mpg.)

We are hangning on by our finger nails. Another heart surgery for my husband a year and a half ago has put paid to our credit rating. That may be a good thing in the long run, but I'm praying that we don't have any serious emergencies where credit is a necesity. (Just paid $115 to have my fifteen year old dryer fixed and was told at the same time that my thirty year old refrigerator is a bust because they can't get parts for it anymore....)

edit: various typos (spastic hands?)
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wryter2000 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
13. Oh, forgive me
For taking out that loan to get my teeth fixed. Why did I think I could afford dentistry?

You do know that half of all bankruptcies are the result of heath issues, right? And that a significant portion of the ones left over are the result of divorce, right?

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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
14. so it's not who
supplies the drug dealer. It's not the people who transport and allow drugs to cross the border, or aid the transport. It's not the one's who have made and continue to make billions of dollars off of the drug trade. And now we have the 'mortgage-war'! It's not the money-lenders or the government conspiring to offer people a chance at 'home ownership' (one of Bush's touted accomplishments)..it's not the ones who baited the hook, cast the line, and reeled all these suckers in. It's not the one's that hammered these suckers over the head with interest rates, it's not the ones who allowed their jobs to vanish, and it's not the one's who made it harder for the suckers to claim bankruptcy. Throw all the suckers in jail..and bail out the banks. Someone has still made some serious money, and will continue to make money because they will own a whole shitload of houses and property. Nice work.
While we are being honest with ourselves...let's own up to who we are

In 2000, 1.5 million U.S. children had an incarcerated parent. Between 1990-2001, the number of women in prison increased by 106%.
• Between 1992-2002the number of infants and toddlers entering foster care increased by 110%.
• In 1993, more than 60% of the homeless population in NYC municipal shelters were former foster youth.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are more than half a million children and youth in the U.S. foster care system,a 90% increase since 1987. Three of 10 of the nation’s homeless are former foster children.
A recent study has found that 12-18 months after leaving foster care:
27% of the males and 10% of the females had been incarcerated
33% were receiving public assistance
37% had not finished high school
50% were unemployed
Children in foster care are three to six times more likely than children not in care to have emotional, behavioral and developmental problems

A study by the National Center for Mental Health and Juvenille Justice found 70% of these youth meet the criteria for at least one mental health disorder. What's worse is that 36% of the parents of these youth intentionally involved the juvenile justice system to access mental health services...some 12,700 children were places in either child welfare, or the juvenile justice systems to access mental health systems (U.S. GAO 2003)
80 percent of prison inmates have been through the foster care system.

Children are 11 times more likely to be abused in State care than they are in their own homes.
http://fostersurvivor.netfirms.com/statistics.shtml
http://fostersurvivor.netfirms.com/statistics.shtml


Foster Care in the Year 2020 (if nothing changes in child welfare trends)
Children who will experience the foster care system Over 9,000,00014
Children who will age out of the foster care system 300,00015
Foster youth aging out of the system that will experience homelessness 75,00016
Number of children killed by abuse or neglect 22,50018

http://www.casey.org/MediaCenter/MediaKit/FactSheet.htm


Nationwide, researchers, practitioners, and policymakers are increasingly focusing on a growing tragedy—large numbers of youth with mental health problems becoming involved in the juvenile justice system. A recent study by the National Center for Mental Health and Juvenile Justice
found approximately 70% of the youth in residential juvenile justice settings meet criteria for at least one mental health disorder
(Shufelt &Cocozza, 2006).
--According to the National Council on Crime and Delinquency, since 1990 the incarceration of youth in adult jails has increased 208%. On any given day, more than 7,000 young people are held in adult jails.

-- Increasing numbers of young people have been placed in adult jails where they are at risk of assault, abuse, and death.
Currently, 40 states permit or require that youth charged as adults be placed pre-trial in an adult jail, and in some states they may be required to serve their entire sentence in an adult jail. According to the National Council on Crime and Delinquency, since 1990 the incarceration of youth in adult jails has increased 208%.
http://www.campaign4youthjustice.org/Downloads/NEWS/JPI...

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/childabuse/a/05_abuse_st...

An average of nearly four children die every day as a result of child abuse or neglect (1,400 in 2002).


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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
15. or like blaming the cigarette companies for your addiction, more to the point
we're talking ABOVE GROUND ECONOMY here

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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Not sure what you are arguing. Sorry. I would respond if I could
understand your logic.
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fwiff Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
16. That's total nonsense.
This has ALL been caused by republican style economics.

Nothing exists on its own- it’s not just a housing meltdown. That happens in cycles.
It’s deregulation of credit.

This time around it’s the combo of oil prices, real estate and health costs/ insurance that make it so bad. Consumerism did not cause this conflagration.

Japan has had interest rates at 0%, recently moving up to .25%, for YEARS. They don’t have this problem. Their markets are regulated.

Deregulation in so many industries (including credit) have removed safety nets, ethics and created/allowed mega-mergers, bubbles and accounting fiction, like Enron.

Concentrating wealth in fewer and fewer hands.
Asinine (or smart depending on your POV) tax cuts that shift the burden onto the middle and lower classes

Offshoring jobs with no worker protections or domestic penalties (everyone else has ‘em)

Allowing oil companies to rake in record profits and push inflation (we’re just seeing this start)

Borrowing without limits and selling our debt makes our credit rating lower and lowers our buying power- since we no longer have many exports, that’s just stupid.

We’ll be paying off this debt the rest of our lives. Imagine what we might have done with that interest money.


Reagan started it. Clinton even contributed in some ways.
Republicans just suck with money.


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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Let me study what you are saying and consider it.
You could be right.

I'm just speaking for myself in my post.
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Mike03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
20. One important thing to add
This phenomenon is not, IMO, party-related. The very same thing would have happend under whatever party was in power.

My core statement is: We need to be responsible for our own excesses, just admit them, and move on.
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enid602 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. '90's
I bought my home in '94, sort of mid-Clinton years. At the time, I made $55K, and had to go through absolute hell to get an $85K loan on the $105K house. Despite good credit and a sizable downpayment. When my Mom gave me $2K toward the downpayment, the bank made all sorts of calls to make sure it wasn't drug money, or anything I might have to pay back later. I ended up having to borrow from my 401K to come up with more funds for the downpayment. I almost lost the house because the bank was taking so long to make up its mind. I think it was a whole different world back then. Good try, however to pin this mess on the Bid Dog. You work for Bush, or have you gone over to the great one?
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
22. So cutting taxes while launching two invasions had nothing to do with it
Thanks, got it.
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ProudToBeBlueInRhody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. What's wrong with the economy? I thought everything was great!
Besides, if it IS bad, it's Clinton's fault. :sarcasm:
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
24. You're talking about a limited aspect of our economic problems
There is a great deal wrong with our economy that has nothing to do with us as consumers. Companies shutting down factories because their workers have the audacity to want their promised benefits has nothing to do with "living outside our means." Wage suppression neither. Nor policies which FORCE people into the maws of credit institutions which then change agreements with total impunity.

Do people need to be less materialistic? Sure, but that's just a small part of a big, broken picture.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-29-08 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
25. I would say it is a combination of both
Edited on Fri Feb-29-08 08:35 PM by Skittles
greedy people and no oversight = disaster
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