U.S. Government Concedes Vaccine-Autism Case in Federal Court

[earth mom]

After arguing this for YEARS here on DU-All I can say is I told you so! :grr:
I also think the many of us around DU who spoke the truth and were dissed for it are owed an apology.

____________________________

The Vaccine-Autism Court Document Every American Should Read
Posted February 26, 2008
By David Kirby

Below is a verbatim copy of the US Government concession filed last November in a vaccine-autism case in the Court of Federal Claims, with the names of the family redacted. It is the subject of my post yesterday.

Every American should read this document, and interpret for themselves what they think their government is trying to say about the relationship, if any, between immunizations and a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder.

If you feel this document suggests that some kind of link may be possible, you might consider forwarding it to your elected representatives for further investigation.

But, of course, if you feel that this document in no way implicates vaccines, then let's just keep going about our business as usual and not pay any attention to all those sick kids behind the curtain.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/the-vaccineautism-court-_b_88558.html



Government Concedes Vaccine-Autism Case in Federal Court - Now What?
Posted February 25, 2008
By David Kirby

After years of insisting there is no evidence to link vaccines with the onset of autism spectrum disorder (ASD), the US government has quietly conceded a vaccine-autism case in the Court of Federal Claims.

<snip>

The claim, one of 4,900 autism cases currently pending in Federal "Vaccine Court," was conceded by US Assistant Attorney General Peter Keisler and other Justice Department officials, on behalf of the Department of Health and Human Services, the "defendant" in all Vaccine Court cases.

<snip>

8) What are the implications for the vaccine-autism debate?

It's too early to tell. But this concession could conceivably make it more difficult for some officials to continue insisting there is "absolutely no link" between vaccines and autism.

<snip>

The United States government is compensating at least one child for vaccine injuries that resulted in a diagnosis of autism.

And that is big news, no matter how you want to say it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/government-concedes-vacci_b_88323.html

[Danieljay]

1. Its the mercury preservative... Its called Thimerosal and most physicians (EDITED)

don't evenknow it contains or is derived from mercury. I asked a nurse once if a vaccine I was getting contained mercury, she said no. I looked at the label and it said Thimerosal, she didn't even know it was Mercury.

Thimerosal, which is approximately 50% mercury by weight, has been one of the most widely used preservatives in vaccines. It is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury and thiosalicylate.

Its probably not one vaccine that causes the problem... its the series over a short amount of time resulting in mercury toxicity. It can take the body a year to rid itself of mercury.

Get this, amalgum fillings are 50% mercury and are still used regularly in the dentists office. Many dentists don't even know they contain mercury.


Oh, and get this:

Why was thimerosal removed from vaccines if there is no danger?

Even though there’s no evidence that thimerosal in vaccines is dangerous, the Public Health Service and the American Academy of Pediatrics believe the effort to remove mercury-based preservatives from vaccines was a good decision. Mercury exists in a different form in our environment (such as in some fish) so children will be exposed to it in other ways. We can’t always remove mercury from the environment. But we can control the mercury used in some vaccines. So, by taking thimerosal out of vaccines, we are lessening the amount of mercury a child will be exposed to early in life.

HOWEVER, existing stocks of mercury containing vaccines are allowed to be used until they are gone. Convenient, they say there is no link, but they are discontinuing the use, BUT they are allowing the drug companies to use all existing stock. Ya gotta love our government!

[earth mom]

2. 1 in 150. That's how many kids have Autism now. It's an epidemic. It used to be 1 in 10,000. nt

[varkam]

36. It's not an epidemic.

Rates of autism diagnoses have been increasing, but it is unlikely that this reflects a concurrent rise in actual incidence of the illness. Since the 80's, there has been a massive increase in the amount of training given to docs with respect to recognizing ASDs. Whereas it used to be that many autistic kids were diagnosed as being mentally retarded or as having a developmental disorder NOS, now they're being diagnosed with ASDs.

In addition, the diagnostic criteria for ASDs have been greatly expanded. Autism used to be a fairly specific diagnosis, but now ASD is really an umbrella term that covers a lot of people it didn't used to.

In other words, the notion that there's a sudden epidemic of autism is incorrect.

[earth mom]

39. You obviously haven't been listening to the parents of children with Autism.

There is a NOTICABLE change BEFORE and AFTER.

Get it?

We're talking about TWO DIFFERENT types of Autism here.

So get off your high horse like you're some kind of expert. :eyes:

Talk to the parents of these kids, get informed.

Then maybe people might listen to what you have to say.

[alarimer]

42. Coincidence, nothing more.

Just because two things happen at the same time, it does mean one caused the other. In fact, your claim is simply confirmation bias. Nobody notices all the times when kids get vaccines and NOTHING HAPPENS TO THEM.
There is no proof, none, that vaccines cause autism.

[earth mom]

47. Coincidence if it was just a few kids. We're talking THOUSANDS or MILLIONS here.

Therefore, NO coincidence.

Nice try though. NOT. :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. I don't know about you but I am getting really tired of this debate

And it is dangerous. I happen to think there is more danger from the diseases the vaccines prevent than from the vaccine. Imagine that! lol

[earth mom]

105. If you're tired of this debate, why bother posting on this thread?

Guess many parents of children that have been caught in this epidemic are tired of having to take care of children that may never ever be able to take care of themselves.

Children that may have been normal otherwise if not for a poisonous jab when they were infants.

So let's sweep the entire mess under the carpet because it's not important enough to you, or * Co or big pharma.

Your post is just amazingly self centered and insulting.

What fucking ever. :puke:

[proud2BlibKansan]

119. I participate in the discussion for several reasons

First of all, it is discouraging to see misinformation spread. Ignorance offends me. And when this ignorance leads to endangering kids, it seems important to speak up. I also participate because I am a special ed teacher and want to gain as much ACCURATE information about autism as I can. Finally, the debate over the cause interests me.

I certainly don't see that as sweeping it under the carpet, but as you say - what fucking ever.

[earth mom]

125. As a special ed teacher you should get educated about this topic.

Ignorance offends me to. And I'm seeing a lot of it on this thread.

Educating yourself doesn't mean coming on this thread and spreading the terra terra terra meme about vaccinations that the pharma giants have been pushing down our throats for years.

Sorry, but there is NO reason to give a one day old infant a Hepatitis B vaccine!

There is no reason to give infants SIXTEEN vaccinations in the first year of their lives!

Sorry but I'm just not buying the terra terra terra meme about vaccinations.

I was born with measles back in the 60s. I'm still here.

I think we've all been fed a line of b.s. that's been quite profitable for the pharma giants.

Which in turn has harmed thousands if not millions of children!

Meanwhile, the pharma giants are most certainly doing damage control and sweeping it all under the carpet.

[proud2BlibKansan]

131. Your title is misleading

as many others in this thread have tried to tell you. The article you posted doesn't support what you claim it says. Sorry but I think what YOU are doing is dangerous.

[seabeyond]

134. these children are expendable. dont recognize a problem, dont find an answer

but the children that will have their lives changed for a lifetime are expendable for all the people the vaccine will help.

be it one of your children that are effected and a lifetime of being different and cries to you..... i just want to be normal.

well a fuck you to your empathy of children that have their life changed forever and struggle thru. and a pat on the back to all the children that work and struggle to embrace this change into a positive in their lives.

or, acknowledge problem and fix....

[defendandprotect]

140. It's been proven over and over again ---

[varkam]

50. Don't change the subject.

I wasn't talking about whether or not vaccines cause autism, so don't pretend I was. You posted that there has been a massive increase in cases of autism and read that to mean that something was causing all these additional cases. I merely pointed out that you're incorrect.

[lumberjack_jeff]

60. Bullshit.

I attended a seminar given by the neurodevelopmental clinic of Childrens Hospital last year, looking at that exact question.

The lead doctor's conclusion: There is an epidemic because if ASD were diagnosed as other things 40 years ago, you should see a corresponding drop in the diagnoses for which it could be mistaken. Rates of occurrence of other developmental disabilities have remained essentially the same while ASD has skyrocketed. The rate of occurence was once believed to be fewer than one in 3000. It is now 1 in 150.

For your bullshit theory to hold water, one must assume that in any population of 10000 people, 64 of them had autism but were mistakenly diagnosed as neurotypical.

Anyone who has any experience with children with autism would immediately reject this.

People who take comfort in pretending that a problem doesn't exist, really, really, piss me off.

:grr:

[varkam]

66. Straw man.

Not saying that a problem doesn't exist, just saying that the problem isn't as described.

[lumberjack_jeff]

68. It's not a straw man at all.

If you can pretend that the disorder only affects as many children as it always has, you can sleep better while dismissing the hysterical parents.

The problem is the fact that it's an epidemic. You are denying this without any basis other than that which you can retrieve from your ass.

[varkam]

76. So you think...

if someone denies it is an epidemic, then that means that it isn't a problem? I seeee....

BTW - do you have a link to the info you posted?

[varkam]

118. Oh, and here's a study in Pediatrics that seems to contradict you...

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/117/4/1028

OBJECTIVE. Growing administrative prevalence of autism has stirred public controversy and concern. The extent to which increases in the administrative prevalence of autism have been associated with corresponding decreases in the use of other diagnostic categories is unknown. The main objective of this study was to examine the relationship between the rising administrative prevalence of autism in US special education and changes in the use of other classification categories.

METHODS. The main outcome measure was the administrative prevalence of autism among children ages 6 to 11 in US special education. Analysis involved estimating multilevel regression models of time-series data on the prevalence of disabilities among children in US special education from 1984 to 2003.

RESULTS. The average administrative prevalence of autism among children increased from 0.6 to 3.1 per 1000 from 1994 to 2003. By 2003, only 17 states had a special education prevalence of autism that was within the range of recent epidemiological estimates. During the same period, the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities declined by 2.8 and 8.3 per 1000, respectively. Higher autism prevalence was significantly associated with corresponding declines in the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities. The declining prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities from 1994 to 2003 represented a significant downward deflection in their preexisting trajectories of prevalence from 1984 to 1993. California was one of a handful of states that did not clearly follow this pattern.

CONCLUSIONS. Prevalence findings from special education data do not support the claim of an autism epidemic because the administrative prevalence figures for most states are well below epidemiological estimates. The growing administrative prevalence of autism from 1994 to 2003 was associated with corresponding declines in the usage of other diagnostic categories.

[lumberjack_jeff]

120. I wish I still had the handouts from the Childrens hospital study.

I hadn't seen the study to which you refer. I believe the below is the study mentioned in the seminar I attended. Naturally, they're 180° contradictory.

Studies which attribute the change in diagnostic rates to changes in diagnostic criteria ignore two things:
1) the criteria changed because the epidemiology changed. It needed to change because of the changes that were being observed in children.
2) even the most liberal interpretation of the data can't come close to explaining the differential. The article in the January edition of Time magazine indicates that George Washington University anthropologist(!) George Grinker says in his new book that 50-75% of new cases can be explained by broadening criteria. This is nowhere near enough to explain the huge rise, and doesn't address point #1 at all.

Objective. Reports of large increases in autism prevalence have been a matter of great concern to clinicians, educators, and parents. This analysis uses a national data source to compare the prevalence of autism with that of other disabilities among successive birth cohorts of US school-aged children.

Design. Comparison of birth cohort curves constructed from administrative data.

Setting and Population. US children 6 to 17 years of age between 1992 and 2001.

Main Outcome Measures. A disability category classification of autism, mental retardation, speech and language impairment, traumatic brain injury, or other health impairment, as documented by state departments of education and reported to the Office of Special Education Programs, US Department of Education.

Results. Prevalences of disability category classifications for annual birth cohorts from 1975 to 1995 were calculated by using denominators from US Census Bureau estimates. For the autism classification, there were birth cohort differences, with prevalences increasing among successive (younger) cohorts. The increases were greatest for annual cohorts born from 1987 to 1992. For cohorts born after 1992, the prevalence increased with each successive year but the increases did not appear to be as great, although there were fewer data points available within cohorts. No concomitant decreases in categories of mental retardation or speech/language impairment were seen. Curves for other health impairments, the category including children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder, also showed strong cohort differences.

Conclusions. Cohort curves suggest that autism prevalence has been increasing with time, as evidenced by higher prevalences among younger birth cohorts. The narrowing in vertical separation of the cohort curves in recent years may mark a slowing in the autism prevalence increase.

[varkam]

129. Do you have a citation for that study? eom

[lumberjack_jeff]

133. here it is

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/115/3/e277

[varkam]

148. Now I'm all confused.

I'm going to have to read through these and try and figure out why they're saying the exact opposite things.

Thanks for the link :hi:

[lumberjack_jeff]

149. We're all confused.

:hi:

[varkam]

150. I like being confused though.

It means my brain is still working.

[lumberjack_jeff]

132. Sorry, forgot the link

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/115/3/e277

[earth mom]

71. Thank you for posting this information!

:hi:

[seabeyond]

135. pretending that a problem doesn't exist, really, really, piss me off

yes. and what fools they are.

[lumberjack_jeff]

141. The other motivation for denying that an epidemic exists...

... is that it is extremely difficult to reconcile the idea of an epidemic that does not have an environmental cause.

There's no such thing as a genetic epidemic.

[seabeyond]

146. one of the hardest thing to embrace myself as a mom, that i had HARMED my child

by not having the information or aware of possibilities or .... it was hard for me to look at my child, and know that i allowed him to be changed from who he was born as.... and say, ok, it is.... and go from there without regret or wishing.... wishing it was different.

it is what it is

[defendandprotect]

139. Everywhere the vaccines were used, autism rates have risen . . .

[earth mom]

7. BINGO! Thanks for your edit!

:hi:

[Feron]

24. And yet thimerosal removal does not decrease autism rates..

LOS ANGELES - Autism cases in California continued to climb after a mercury-rich vaccine preservative that some people blame for the neurological disorder was removed from routine childhood shots, a new study found.

Researchers from the state Department of Public Health found the autism rate in children rose continuously during the 12-year study period from 1995 to 2007. The preservative thimerosal has not been used in childhood vaccines since 2001, but is used in some flu shots.

Doctors say the latest study adds to evidence refuting a link between thimerosal exposure and autism risk and should reassure parents that the disorder is not caused by vaccinations. If there was a risk, they said, autism rates should have dropped between 2004 and 2007.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/01/08/autism_rate_in_calif_increases/

Anyway here's a rebuttal of Kirby's post: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2008/02/incredible_shrinking_causation_claim.php#more

The danger of pushing mercury woo is that parents of autistic children turn to snakeoil 'cures' like chelation. Or recklessly decide to not vaccinate children even though unvaccinated children still get autism.

Anyway there's a growing body of evidence that autism is a genetic disorder. Ancedotally, Asperger's seems to run on my dad's side of the family. At least on the autism lists I subscribe to, some adult autistic people describing regressing for no explicable reason in adulthood. It would be interesting to study because it could be related to childhood regression.

I really wish that people would be more into acceptance rather than dehumanizing people who are different. Like the morons that are so self-absorbed and are astounded to find out that a mute person has actual thoughts and feelings.*

*Nothing personal against you Danieljay. I'm just tired and meandering. :)

[earth mom]

27. Something is TRIGGERING Autism in these children.

People did have Autism before this epidemic, and kids are still born with Autism that never had any shots.

But what we are looking at here are children who had NORMAL development, got the shots and changed overnight.

That is the difference and it has NOTHING to do with children that were born with Autism.

And another thing, the Autism rates haven't dropped because the shots with thimerosal weren't taken off the shelves-they were given to infants because nobody gave a damn!

[edhopper]

3. First of all

the child did not have autism but a severe illness that caused seizures.
Second, this Administration doing ANYTHING can not lend credence to one side or the other. You want to look at how they handled the Tobacco case? Cases are settled for a lot of reasons and are not measures of proof.
I'll trust the CDC and the National Science Foundation before BuschCo.

[earth mom]

4. The CDC is in bed with * Co. Your post makes no sense. nt

[TZ]

5. This all was before Bush CO

Like the 90's? Thimerosol has been OUT since then (except for a handful of flu shots). So then its the Clintons fault.
More anti vaxx propoganda. Is the WHO in Bush's pocket? NIAID?NIH? National Science Foundation Johns Hopkins University? 99% of the medical community.
GIve me a fucking break. Why has autism RISEN since the removal of thimerosol.

On edit; this is from YOUR article:DVIC has concluded that CHILD's complex partial seizure disorder, with an onset of almost six years after her July 19, 2000 vaccinations, is not related to a vaccine-injury.
Kid had an underlying condition. And besides. NO VACCINES AT THAT TIME HAD THIMERSOL.
Bullshit lying propaganda POST!

[earth mom]

6. Because not all the Vaccines containing Thimerosol were taken off the shelves.

Give me a fucking break with your post. NO doubt you were one of the naysayers I was talking about. Can't admit you are wrong even with proof from a court case.

Go listen to some more Faux News. Enjoy your Kool Aid.

[earth mom]

8. p.s. I find it VERY interesting that you want to sling blame at the Clintons. Indeed. nt

[edhopper]

9. No

He is pointing out that...oh never mind, keep you conspiracy in the face of all scientific evidence.
And Global Warming is a lie to because the same agencies support that.

[KamaAina]

31. She probably just forgot the "sarcasm" icon

I read that as a riff on the old DU chestnut "it's the Clenis' fault".

While we're here, see the "scientist" avatar up there? Turns out the woman actually works with vaccines. I was just wondering when she was going to jump into one of our biweekly vax flamefests!

And, as a person with autism, who once worked in an Ivy League autism clinic, I can tell you that no one thing, thimerosal or anything else, is "the cause" of autism. The point is explained below by lumberjack_jeff: if you exhibit the behaviors, you have the condition. It isn't a disease per se, like, for instance, (Type i) diabetes, in which the pancreas stops producing insulin. No one is sure what the underlying physiological process(es) is/are in autism.

Corollary: Despite the best efforts of mostly parent-based advocacy groups, there will be no "cure" for autism. Best to just bring us into society, like we should be doing with all people with disabilities. Who knows? We might even find a few more DUers...

[earth mom]

40. You were born with Autism. The children in the lawsuits did not have Autism until AFTER the shots.

Why is this so difficult for people to understand?

There is a noticeable DIFFERENCE after the shots were given.

The children DID NOT have Autism from birth!!!

Also, FYI-parents want to RECOVER their children, NOT CURE.

They want to help them function in the word and to be able to speak, etc.

You do NOT have a clue what parents of children with Autism have to go through just to get their children with Autism to speak and be able to function!

I really hate uniformed, ignorant, asshat posts like yours!!!

[alarimer]

43. A logical fallacy called confirmation bias.

A correlation does not imply cause and effect. It so happens that symptoms of autism appear at roughly the same age that kids are getting vaccines; it does not at all mean that the vaccine gave the kid autism. I would guarantee that those same kids would be autistic even if they never got any vaccines.

I am so tired of this old debunked argument. There is no scientific proof that vaccines cause autism.

[earth mom]

45. Your disinfo is OLD. You do NOT have a clue what you are talking about.

This isn't just one parent saying that their child developed the signs of Autism overnight.

This is thousands, if not millions of parents who are saying that their children were NORMAL and could talk.

These children were then vaccinated and changed overnight and could NOT speak!

Parents connected the dots that implicated big pharma and big pharma ran for cover.

* & Co has protected their a$$es BIG TIME haven't they? That alone should make people suspicious.

Instead, threads like this get asinine ignorant posts like yours. Almost like the freepers have invaded. :wtf:


FYI-The scientific proof that vaccines did cause Autism has been obstructed by the powers who will NOT allow unbiased true scientific studies to be done.

BTW, how about some Mercury with your dinner tonight? It's just what the doc ordered I'm told. :puke:

[lumberjack_jeff]

59. 40 years ago, there was no such thing as late-onset autism.

Today, (most?) ASD children have a history of normal development until they are about 18-30 months - when they suddenly regress.

Were it not for late onset autism, the prevalence of the disorder might not be much different from what it was in 1970.

I firmly believe that there's an environmental trigger at work. I find the theory that heavy metals are the culprit eminently plausible.

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. How can they tell people are born with autism?

Is there a test I am not aware of that diagnoses it at birth?

[earth mom]

69. Parents & Doctors notice the lack of eye contact, the lack of words, the stimming behavior etc.

And acknowledge that the child has been like that from from birth.

Whereas children with late onset Autism have a distinct before and after.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. So there isn't a definitive diagnostic test that confirms it has been present since birth

[earth mom]

81. I don't think there is a definitive test for it. I just know that there are parents who swear

that their child had signs of Autism from birth: had the stimming, the hand flapping, the lack of language milestones, the lack of eye contact, etc.

Considering how many check ups a child gets in it's first year, a doctor would notice the behaviors long before the child was given the MMR shot which is given at about 1 year old.

[lumberjack_jeff]

93. Parents are told to watch for eye contact

preverbal babbling, inappropriate fixation on objects, etc beginning when children are very young.

There are many examples of people (my son included) who had appropriate development until he was about 18 months. For him the change wasn't dramatic, but it was sudden. 30 years ago, it was believed safe to consider a child who displayed no autistic traits at 18 months neurotypical. Today, not necessarily.

One week, he was a normally-developing child and the next he was lining up matchbox cars across the room, "circling" and avoiding eye contact.

[KamaAina]

65. "Uniformed" posts?

Would that be, like, a police uniform, or maybe an NY Giants one? :-)

As to the "ignorant" part, the notion that autism has multiple etiologies (causes) comes from one of the most respected researchers in the field, now the head of a major academic child study center.

And over the years, I've spoken in front of, and related personally to, dozens, if not hundreds of parents. To paraphrase Bill Clinton, "I feel their pain". Question: If a vaccine-autism link (not necessarily mediated through thimerosal) were to be conclusively established, how exactly would that affect the efforts of the tens of thousands of parents whose kids already have autism, i.e. how would the effect be reversed?

[lumberjack_jeff]

67. I know some parents who claim that chelation therapy helps.

I know their son, and don't see the improvement, and I think the process is intrusive and risky.

I haven't seriously investigated it on my son's behalf.

I don't think that the effects can be reversed in any meaningful way. I think the best we can hope for is to help prepare society (including the workforce) for about a million people with ASD, while learning about the triggers so that future generations can avoid being affected by it.

[varkam]

84. Chelation therapy is also responsible for at least one autistic child's death.

:shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

94. I'm aware of that as well.

But if metals toxicity isn't the problem, you would think that the treatment should have no effect.

You're absolutely right about the lengths parents will go to help their children, and there are some charlatans out there.

story mode:

I used to work for a manufacturer of pumps as a designer. These pumps were often used in manure pits on farms (gross, I know). The company got sued because an entire family suffocated down in the pit. What happened was the son went into the pit to free something that was blocking the pump. Methane is heavier than air, there was no oxygen and he lost consciousness. Dad went down in the pit to rescue son.... lather, rinse, repeat.

All in all, five members of the family died in the pit.

Our chief engineer (who was something of an asshole) commented how stupid it was for the second, third, fourth and fifth people to go down there. I told him he was an idiot, if that was his son down there in the pit, he'd try to rescue him too.

That's parenthood. You do whatever it takes, even if it leads you to ruin.

[varkam]

109. There's no evidence that chelation therapy imrpoves autism.

But if metals toxicity isn't the problem, you would think that the treatment should have no effect.

If you have any data that either (a) metals toxicity is the problem or that (b) chelation therapy can cure autism, then of course I'd be interested in seeing it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. You are right, I overstated the case. Evidence of success for chelation is mostly anecdotal. n/t

[KamaAina]

91. I know others who have had success with a gluten-free, casein-free diet.

And so on, and so on: for each different cause of autism, there will be one (or more) interventions that work for that particular cause. The limiting case is an antifungal drug called nystatin. Nystatin is 100% effective in autism -- as long as the autism symptoms are due to a fungal infection. If the cause is something else, nystatin's effectiveness drops straight to zero.

I've been in the field (officially :-) ) nearly fifteen years. On average, a new "cure" comes along about every six months. Parents really are desperate for answers, and all we have is more questions. It's no wonder that people can be convinced to mortgage their homes (really) to pay for private behavior therapy.

[Danieljay]

16. I dont know about this case and Thimerosal, but I did attend a physicians conference recently..

with my wife, who IS a doctor and they had an entire afternoon on the relationship between the use of Thimerosal as a preservative in vaccines and combined with antibiotics and its likelihood to cause the death of neurons exponentially.

One particular physician actually presented studies associating Thimerosal preservative with antibiotics given to soldiers going to the middle east and the likelihood of symptoms associated with gulf war syndrome.

This case might not be a link as you stated, but there is something going on and that is the very reason they are pulling it off the market, but allowing big pharma to continue using existing stock.

The physicians I heard, who's own kid began showing signs of autism when given the series of vaccines and reversed the the neuronal death by massive chelation of heavy metals. Is it a risk to all kids? doubtful, but if my kid is the one in 150, and there is ANY evidence of a risk... no vaccine or no preservative containing vaccines for my kid, and my wife, a doctor herself taught me this.

We will forgo the vaccine or use the preservative free one when available.

[AngryAmish]

92. Please keep your children out of the public

Definitely do not send them to school. They are a danger.

[lumberjack_jeff]

100. Explain how a non-vaccinated child is "a danger" to those who are.

And they call the parents of ASD kids hysterical. :eyes:

[AngryAmish]

106. Disease reservoirs

[shimmergal]

151. If you feel that way, you

should be taking on the laws that allow parents to dispense with immunizations for religious reasons.

Almost every state has them.

[Pavulon]

10. Nope, The murderer in the UK

who spread this crap in the lancet has had his lisc. to practice medicine revoked and is under investigation for criminal charges.

Failure to vaccinate children because of this is a public safety issue.

This is not a scientific finding. This is a civil proceeding.

Keep you non vaccinated kids away from me (until the dss takes them) and be thankful for the people who vaccinate their kids so yours do not die.

[earth mom]

13. You must enjoy living in *'s world. You know TERRA TERRA TERRA at every corner.

:eyes:

FYI-I was born with measles and I'm still alive and kicking and just a few years shy of 50.

[Danieljay]

15. Think this through, if YOURE vaccinated it doen't MATTER if a non vaccinated kid is around you..

duh?

You pose more of a risk to the one who ISN't vaccinated.

[Pavulon]

17. The system collapses when the stupid

ones begin to grow in numbers. Then the MMRs begin to infest the un vaccinated morons. Some counties experienced a bloom of diseases like rubella in migrant workers who were afraid to use health services. This was quickly fixed.

However sudan is a great place, no vaccinations there.

Enjoy your polio.

[varkam]

83. Once herd immunity breaks down...

we all lose the benefit of vaccines, whether we ourselves have been vaccinated or not. AFAIK, it doesn't take a large number to not get vaccinated before such immunity begins to break down - just a few percent.

[applegrove]

11. Last night on Larry King they talked about the vaccines and how

the preservative was only there so doctors could use a vial multiple times (like a dozen)without having to open a new vial. Would cost about 50 cents to take out the preservatives and have one shot vials. Terrible.

[MrCoffee]

12. It doesn't say anything about causing autism

It says "the vaccine aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which predisposed her to cellular energy defects, and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of autism specturm disorder."

Is that the correct diagnosis for all autism sufferers, then?

[earth mom]

14. Don't know, but I do know that the pharma giants must be protected at ALL costs. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

18. "if you have the features... you have the disorder" From the article

This question gets to the heart of what autism actually is. The disorder is defined solely as a collection of features, nothing more. If you have the features (and the diagnosis), you have the disorder. The underlying biology is the great unknown.

But let's say the government does determine that these kids don't have actual "autism" (something I speculated on HuffPost a year ago). Then shouldn't the Feds go back and test all people with ASD for impaired oxidative phosphorylation, perhaps reclassifying many of them?

[MrCoffee]

29. That's a perfectly valid question, and one that is not at all adressed in this OP

The OP was screaming that the gov't admitted that a vaccine caused autism, which the court document in no way does.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. The court admitted that the vaccine caused all of the ASD features.

As noted above, under the current DSM, if you have the features of ASD, you'll get an ASD Dx.

Besides, does the distinction really make a difference? It sounds as if your disagreement is that the person who won the court case didn't really get ASD from the vaccines, just all of the symptoms. :shrug:

[varkam]

113. As I post below...

having features doesn't mean you have the disorder. There's no way of telling how many features this child had, though it is implied that it's not the required six as per the DSM. If it were, then the child would of been Dxed with autism and the court documents would've reflected that.

[The Straight Story]

19. So in other words....

We probably shouldn't vaccinate ad hoc and wholesale because each person has differences.

I can go with that.

[earth mom]

22. Exactly. And vaccinate when children are older.

Why does a one day old infant need to have a Hepatitis B shot?!!!

No one seems to be able to answer that question.

[MrCoffee]

30. So you'd scrap all of modern medicine, because we're all different?

If you'd throw out vaccines because we all have differences, why should we allow doctors to prescribe any old drug for anyone, or pharmacies to sell anything OTC?

[earth mom]

46. The pharma giants are trying to kill off natural cures. They are lobbying for that in congress now.

Why are we allowing these bastards to have control over our health and our childrens health this way? That is the question.

[defendandprotect]

142. Because we now have corporate-health care and the public just lies down for it --- !!!

They've been taught to NOT think --- just take the pill and shut up ---

Trying to convince them that something natural is more positive is tough to get thru to them ---

[GoneOffShore]

20. I can hear the viruses laughing and reproducing as the keyboards clack.

They know they'll wipe us out now.

The stupid has finally infected so many people that rubella, polio, smallpox, pertussis and all their friends and relations will now regain a foothold in the US.

Oh well - it's evolution in action.

But it's a shame to see generations destroyed because of anti vax asshats.

[earth mom]

21. NO-it's a CRIME that innocent babies were used as a human experiments.

If you really want to talk about asshats, let's start with the pharma giants.

Or maybe it serves you well to cover their a$$es and post their propaganda.

[varkam]

35. Ha!

:rofl:

[earth mom]

38. WTF-it's funny that children were poisoned?!

:wtf:

p.s. Your post speaks VOLUMES about you.

[varkam]

51. No. What's funny is your resorting to accusing people of being pharma shills.

I think your tinfoil hat might be cutting off the flow of blood to your brain.

[earth mom]

74. Read my signature-MILLIONS of parents can't be wrong. nt

[varkam]

77. Argumentum ad populum.

You're not too much on substance, are you?

Have a nice night :hi:

[earth mom]

86. And you think your posts prove you're a genius? ROFLMAO!

:rofl:

[varkam]

87. Nope.

:hi:

ETA - I just realized how very ironic your screen name is.

[earth mom]

88. Attack the messenger instead of the message. How Lovely. NOT.

What else ya got in that bag of tricks?

Is this thread gonna disappear because you're a mod?

:hi:

p.s. FYI-my screen name is a slam towards the right wing fundie nut jobs who've taken over this country who don't have a clue about morality or ethics.

p.s.s. I find it ironic that you have dissed me up one side and down the other on this thread, yet you call ME out on The Golden Rule. YOU started it, not me.

You dish it out, but you can't take it in return. So what mod do I alert this kind of harassment to, hmm?

[varkam]

107. What message?

You can't just pretend that you haven't attacked anyone and that your arguments have been astounding when the whole conversation is on record.

In this thread, for example, I came in after you attacked another poster by accusing them of being a pharma shill.

Attacking the messenger, indeed.

:shrug:

eta By the way - I thought the golden rule was that you should treat people the way you want to be treated, not treat people the way you want to be treated unless you perceive that they slight you in some fashion in which case you can behave however you choose.

[earth mom]

111. There have been few posts on this thread that were not attacks. Yes, I fought back.

Why is wrong for me, with the user name I have to fight unwanted attacks? I didn't ask people to come into my thread to attack me or attack Kirby or the information presented, yet I, Kirby and all the information that was presented in the OP was attacked over and over again. So because of my user name, I am supposed to sit here and nice to death all the a$$hats that posted in my thread who were on the attack from the get go? WTF?! Are you kidding me?! As I said to you before, YOU (and the rest of em) STARTED IT!

The Golden Rule is about doing the right thing by people. That means don't crap on them. I didn't crap on anyone. I just took the crap you and others heaped upon me and this topic and threw it back at all of you.

There is a huge difference between being kind to people-yes I do live by the Golden Rule-and having people rudely come into your world and crap all over it and then telling them to knock the shit off!

Yes, I fought back. And that is NOT a crime.

For the record, I did not set out to hurt anyone with my OP. No, on the contrary, I tried to inform people while others set out to intentionally hurt me and an extremely important topic with the intention to kill off all rational, civilized and "kind" discussion of the topic with a flame fest.

So again, I did NOT start the war or attacks on this thread. You can look in the mirror for that.

[varkam]

112. In many instances, you were not fighting back.

You were simply fighting. Take my first reply in this thread, for example. I did not attack you, in fact I did not even refer to you. Yet, in your reply, instead of addressing my argument you went for the ad hominem. Fighting back, right?

Why is wrong for me, with the user name I have to fight unwanted attacks? I didn't ask people to come into my thread to attack me or attack Kirby or the information presented, yet I, Kirby and all the information that was presented in the OP was attacked over and over again. So because of my user name, I am supposed to sit here and nice to death all the a$$hats that posted in my thread who were on the attack from the get go? WTF?! Are you kidding me?! As I said to you before, YOU (and the rest of em) STARTED IT!

You have to expect that if you present controversial information on a public message board that there are going to be at least some people that disagree with that information. If it gets you so hot and bothered as to actually upset you that there are people who think differently, then I would advise you not to post any such information in the future. Otherwise, be prepared to have people disagree with you.

It was perhaps a bit unfair of me to point out the irony of your screen name. On a discussion board, it is only to be expected that we will all, at some point, say something that we regret or that is at least at odds with how we wish we would behave.

Nonetheless, as I pointed out in this post, my very first reply to this thread was met with an ad hominem from...you. Yet you breathlessly assert that I and other "a$$hats" have started it. That goes beyond irony.

The Golden Rule is about doing the right thing by people. That means don't crap on them. I didn't crap on anyone. I just took the crap you and others heaped upon me and this topic and threw it back at all of you.

Is it now? See, cause the way I've always heard it is that you should treat people the way you want to be treated. Apparently, things work differently in your world.

There is a huge difference between being kind to people-yes I do live by the Golden Rule-and having people rudely come into your world and crap all over it and then telling them to knock the shit off!

As I posted before, this is a public message board, not "your world". Anyone with an internet connection can read what you posted and anyone with an account can reply. If there is something that you so cherish that any challenge to it would upset you so, then again I advise you to not post on that subject.

Yes, I fought back. And that is NOT a crime.

You didn't fight back. You fought. Also, I'm not charging you with a crime.

For the record, I did not set out to hurt anyone with my OP. No, on the contrary, I tried to inform people while others set out to intentionally hurt me and an extremely important topic with the intention to kill off all rational, civilized and "kind" discussion of the topic with a flame fest.

What about my first couple of posts where you attacked me both times? What about other posters that you accused of being pharma shills?

What about this very sub-thread? You posted a bad argument "MILLIONS of parents can't be wrong", and that's a fallacy, "Argumentum ad populum" (appeal to popularity), then for some unknown reason you decided to bring up my intellect. :shrug:

So again, I did NOT start the war or attacks on this thread. You can look in the mirror for that.

So you keep saying.

[earth mom]

114. I know the definition.

At the heart of it, The Golden Rule is a message about being kind and doing the right thing by others. Treat others as you would want them to treat you.

I've seen little if any kindness shown here on DU about this topic over the years. This thread was no different, and I expected it, but it still blows my mind because these are poisoned children we are talking about here. You would think the results of the court case in the OP would change hearts and minds, yet people continue to diss the entire thing! Unbelievable.

You know, if these kids had cancer people would be all over this topic like there was no tomorrow. Instead, it's attacks from every angle and idiotic perspective. I expect better behavior from people on DU and I'm disappointed EVERY single time. I had thought DUers cared about humanity, but I am wrong about that and it greatly saddens me, but also pisses me off because as John Edwards would say "We are better than that!"

So you can sit there and make your value judgments about me like you've done repeatedly throughout this thread, because I really don't give a damn what you think about the topic, or of me. Because after years of putting up with the disgusting crap you and others have dished out on this thread, I am only more convinced that there is disinfo being spread far and wide about this subject.

I know what the truth is, I know these kids were poisoned by the pharma giants and you will not change my mind. Period.

[varkam]

115. You can dance around the definition all you'd like to.

At the end of the day, your rationalizations don't change what the golden rule is - nor the fact that you have not been following it. But regardless, that's a bit off-topic.

I've seen little if any kindness shown here on DU about this topic over the years. This thread was no different, and I expected it, but it still blows my mind because these are poisoned children we are talking about here. You would think the results of the court case in the OP would change hearts and minds, yet people continue to diss the entire thing! Unbelievable.

Perhaps if you read some of the objections to the information Kirby is presenting then you would understand why people have a problem with the argument. Ostensibly, though, you are too busy attacking posters for being pharma shills and being uninformed.

You know, if these kids had cancer people would be all over this topic like there was no tomorrow. Instead, it's attacks from every angle and idiotic perspective. I expect more and better behavior from people on DU and I'm disappointed EVERY single time. I had thought DUers cared about humanity, but I am wrong about that and it greatly saddens me, but also pisses me off because as John Edwards would say "We are better than that!"

One giant non-sequitur. Way to "fight back", as you put it.

So you can sit there and make your value judgments about me like you've done repeatedly throughout this thread, because I really don't give a damn what you think about the topic, or of me. Because after years of putting up with the disgusting crap you and others have dished out on this thread, I am only more convinced that there is disinfo being spread far and wide about this subject.

I'm not making value judgements. I'm making judgements (or at least, I was) on the topic at hand and why (a) there are other explanations for the rise in autism aside from an actual increase in incidence and (b) why Kirby is, at best, being disengenuous. Instead of addressing my arguments, though, you're just attacking me personally (e.g. accusing me of being uninformed without actually explaining why that is, accusing me of spreading disinformation without actually explaining what the disinformation is or even making an attempt to refute it).

If you want to convince others, you would probably be better served by sticking with logic as opposed to acrimony.

I know what the truth is, I know these kids were poisoned by the pharma giants and you will not change my mind. Period.

And therein lies the problem - and the difference between you and me. You claim to know what the truth is, whereas I don't know what the truth is. You may be right, though I don't think you are. At present, there is insufficient evidence (and depending on the claim, a pluarlity of evidence to prove that you are wrong) to support your conclusions. I'd be happy to change my mind if compelling evidence came along. Something tells me, though, that the same is not the case with you. After all, how can you change your mind if you already know what the case is?

[earth mom]

116. If you really wanted to know the truth you would question the doctor on this thread

who posted that vaccine damage is possible. Or you would have replied to the husband of a doctor who said pretty much the same thing. If you really care about this issue and really want some answers that is. But you didn't do that. Oh no. It was far easier to zero in on me and diss me up one side and down the other and so much more fun to pick apart every word I type and examine like this is some virtual classroom where you're going to teach me the rules of posting on a message board. :eyes:


So let me be crystal clear: At this point in time, I believe that the poisonous jab was the straw that broke the camels back upon a mix of other factors-genetic and environmental.

Not only that, but I would be happy to see real, honest and unbiased research done by scientists that aren't bought and paid for by the pharma giants or the U.S. medical/scientific community who are biased as well.

But that is not going to happen. Not if the pharma giants can help it.

Oh hell no. The pharma giants have the disinfo campaign going full steam plus they own Congress & * & Co.

Those bastards have got all bases covered and gamed to serve themselves very well indeed.

[varkam]

117. Oy.

...who posted that vaccine damage is possible. Or you would have replied to the husband of a doctor who said pretty much the same thing. If you really care about this issue and really want some answers that is. But you didn't do that. Oh no. It was far easier to zero in on me and diss me up one side and down the other and so much more fun to pick apart every word I type and examine like this is some virtual classroom where you're going to teach me the rules of posting on a message board.

I've never said that vaccine damage is impossible, or that there are not ADRs to vaccines. What I am taking issue with is the notion that vaccines cause autism (a specific claim) and Kirby's disingenuousness.

So let me be crystal clear: At this point in time, I believe that the poisonous jab was the straw that broke the camels back upon a mix of other factors-genetic and environmental.

Well the court would tend to agree with you - but it still didn't cause autism. The court never asserts that. Kirby's claim that the court did assert that is disingenuous (which, by the way, was my original problem with the OP).

Not only that, but I would be happy to see real, honest and unbiased research done by scientists that aren't bought and paid for by the pharma giants or the U.S. medical/scientific community who are biased as well.


See? Everyone that disagrees with you must be part of some vast, silent conspiracy, right? There have been international studies done on this topic. One large study from Denmark comes to mind that (surprise!) found no connection between vaccines and autism. Guess they were bought and paid for, too, right? Ohhh...but when hacks like Kirby, Wakefield, and the Geiers come out and say that there is a link, despite holes in their research big enough to drive a truck through and conflicts of interest that result in criminal charges and medical licenses being revoked, it's all kosher!

Here's a link to a meta-analysis by the American Academy of Pediatrics. Guess they're only interested in profits for drug makers and poisoning children, right?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/793

edited to be less acrimonious

[GoneOffShore]

48. A far bigger crime is that anti vax asshats parade their ignorance

As truth.

Whooping cough, measles, polio, smallpox.

You really want these back?

It certainly looks like you do.

Back to your cave - and no fire or wheel for you. You get to eat the raw green meat and die of one of the above.

:spank:

[defendandprotect]

144. Actually, it's worse than that because many knew this was dangerous ---

but the drug companies want to be able to keep this stuff on the shelves --- i.e., the PRESERVATIVES . . .

Btw, I understand this stuff was also in some flu vaccines used for the elderly ----

[LeftCoast]

23. This case does not seem to be saying what you think it does

In sum, DVIC has concluded that the facts of this case meet the statutory criteria for demonstrating that the vaccinations CHILD received on July 19, 2000, significantly aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which predisposed her to deficits in cellular energy metabolism, and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder. Therefore, respondent recommends that compensation be awarded to petitioners in accordance with 42 U.S.C. § 300aa-11(c)(1)(C)(ii).

DVIC has concluded that CHILD's complex partial seizure disorder, with an onset of almost six years after her July 19, 2000 vaccinations, is not related to a vaccine-injury.

I found this near the end of the document.

[earth mom]

26. Of course you MUST make sure to point that out.

:eyes:

Well, you didn't think they would allow the pharma giants to pay for this now would you? Even though it IS their fault. :grr:

[MrCoffee]

28. You certainly wouldn't want anyone to be misled, would you?

[earth mom]

25. KICK! nt

[goforit]

32. My god!!! Finally there is clear scientific evidence!!

Mercury and metals are used as preservatives in the vaccines.

Europe and the rest of the world doesn't allow metals to be used in their vaccines.

I swear our gov't is nothing but a huge terrorist organization out to kill all its citizens in perverse ways.

[aikoaiko]

33. edited: I got to read it more carefully.

this sentence is interesting, but I'm not sure it says the vaccines led to autism.

In sum, DVIC has concluded that the facts of this case meet the statutory criteria for demonstrating that the vaccinations CHILD received on July 19, 2000, significantly aggravated an underlying mitochondrial disorder, which predisposed her to deficits in cellular energy metabolism, and manifested as a regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder. Therefore, respondent recommends that compensation be awarded to petitioners in accordance with 42 U.S.C. § 300aa-11(c)(1)(C)(ii).

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. Autism is nothing more than a collection of features.

There's no such thing as a person who manifests the features of autism that doesn't have autism.

It's very possible that the features of autism can be caused in more than one way. The case demonstrates that vaccines acting on underlying cellular disorders is one way.

[aikoaiko]

96. I disagree -- other disorders (eg. flacid CP) have features of autism, but are not autism.

just saying

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. Two of the features which describe a motorcycle are two wheels and an engine.

But it's not safe to conclude that my rototiller is a motorcycle.

However, it's safe to say that if enough of the features are there, you're looking at an actual motorcycle.

The actual DSM criteria are posted downthread. The article strongly suggested that the person in question had the features in the proper proportion to merit a diagnosis.

[varkam]

34. Kirby is blowing things wayyy out of proportion.

All they're saying is that a preponderance of the evidence (a legal standard, mind you, not a scientific one) that vaccines injured a child by aggravating an underlying genetic mitochondrial condition with features of ASD (read: not an ASD).

IOW Kirby's being Kirby.

[aikoaiko]

37. agreed.

[earth mom]

44. Wow-you just love to spread disinfo don't you?

:puke:

[varkam]

49. What, precisely, about my post is disinformation?

Be precise.

[lumberjack_jeff]

62. The precise nature of your disinformation is your contention

... that you can have the features of ASD and not have ASD.

Clear enough?

[varkam]

79. That's plenty clear. That's also plenty wrong.

:hi:

[varkam]

85. Also want to add...

that I realize you're getting that notion from Kirby - though let me ask the following: is Kirby trained in diagnosing mental illness? His he a trained physician? Nope. He's a journalist.

It's entirely possible to have certain features of a disorder, but not meet the criteria for a clinical diagnosis.

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. Okay then...

... what are the non-observational criteria for an autism diagnosis? Irregular lab results? A blood test?

I'm not only getting the notion from Kirby. The only criteria that childrens hospital used to give my son a dx was anecdotal and observational. Does he do this? Check. Does he do that? Check. How often?

The story strongly implies that the child in question manifested enough of the features to merit an ASD diagnosis.

It is not possible to have the features of ASD consistent with the DSM-determined threshold and not merit the diagnosis.

[varkam]

108. You're misunderstanding me.

To qualify for any diagnosis for a mental illness, you have to meet certain criteria. Usually, there's a number of different features that you have to have in order to meet the requirements for a diagnosis. Just pulling something out of my ass, let's say that for diagnosis X you have to have 3 specific features in order to qualify for a diagnosis, but you only have 2. In the case, you have features of the illness, but you don't meet the criteria for a diagnosis.

[lumberjack_jeff]

122. I don't misunderstand you, I fully agree with this.

From my read of the article in the OP, I got the implication that the child manifests the features in adequate proportion to qualify for ASD. You see it differently.

There is an alternate interpretation of the article, that an adequate number of the features are present, but that doubt exists that these features may be the result of other lab-testable diagnoses.

[varkam]

130. Where, from the court document, do you get that the child has autism? eom

[earth mom]

70. Quote: "Kirby is blowing things way out of proportion"

Who are YOU to make that judgment and smear David Kirby like that?

That sir, is disinfo.

[varkam]

80. You can go back and read my post if you want an answer to that question.

:shrug:

[lumberjack_jeff]

57. Yikes. One last time.

If you manifest an appropriate degree of the symptoms as defined in the DSM, you have the disorder. It's as simple as that.

If I give you a drug which (through whatever process) causes you to manifest the features of ASD, I've given you ASD.

[varkam]

78. No.

Having features of a disorder doesn't mean that you have the disorder.

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. Here are the DSM IV criteria

(I) A total of six (or more) items from (A), (B), and (C), with at least two from (A), and one each from (B) and (C)

(A) qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
1. marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction
2. failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
3. a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people, (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
4. lack of social or emotional reciprocity ( note: in the description, it gives the following as examples: not actively participating in simple social play or games, preferring solitary activities, or involving others in activities only as tools or "mechanical" aids )
(B) qualitative impairments in communication as manifested by at least one of the following:
1. delay in, or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime)
2. in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others
3. stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language
4. lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level
(C) restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least two of the following:
1. encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
2. apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
3. stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
4. persistent preoccupation with parts of objects

(II) Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years:

(A) social interaction
(B) language as used in social communication
(C) symbolic or imaginative play

(III) The disturbance is not better accounted for by Rett's Disorder or Childhood Disintegrative Disorder

If you meet the above observational criteria, and it is not better explained by (III) tag, you're it.

A person who meets (a)1, (a)2, (a)4, (b)2, (b)3, (b)4 and (c)4. Has the disorder; they don't simply display some of the markers.

Granted, I have been told by doctors that there are some commonly-observed physiological traits, but they aren't part of the diagnostic criteria.

[aikoaiko]

101. I loaned my DSM out and never got it back.

If I recall correctly, for some disorders, the DSM states that a disorder's criteria is not met when precipitated by a medical condition.

Is that also true of the ASD?

[lumberjack_jeff]

102. I've never owned a dsm and didn't know what it was until my sons doctor showed me his.

I don't want to claim more expertise than I deserve. Nevertheless, my understanding is that if the markers are not better explained by a lab-testable medical condition (i.e. Fragile-x) then it's ASD.

The diagnostician can then drill down into the ASD spectrum diagnostics to determine which flavor of ASD (autism, aspbergers, etc)

[varkam]

110. Look closely at (I)

If you have five, but not six, then you have features but not the disorder.

[alarimer]

41. This is in no way proof of a link

A link between autism and vaccines has been debunked many, many times. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF A LINK!

[lovuian]

52. This is Big cause it means vaccinations harmed many of

our children's lives and probably tryed to cover it up too
So sad

[Echo In Light]

53. I work with a woman who wrote a disturbing paper on this for a college class

Don't recall all the details but remember there was plenty of evidence supporting the nefarious claims.

[goclark]

54. I know for a fact that in 1990 there were three children

at my school with Autism. There were not enough to have a class and they were blended into the regular classrooms with a Special Education Assistant to help them.

Their parents were dedicated and constantly read about the latest findings.The parents and the district tried everything that was suggested to help the children.


By 2000, in the same community, there were 3 CLASSES (of 5-6 students each) and we had to add a section to the building to house the classes!

As I read your interesting thread, I am in tears. When I think that in all those years, the population continued to expand.

It's heartbreaking.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. When people tell me that my son is not part of an epidemic

It pisses me off.

One has only to spend some time in any school to see that there's something going on.

I'm convinced there's an environmental trigger causing it.

[goclark]

64. Me too

I know this is crazy but one of the parents was a chemist.

She told me that she believed it was something in the artificial sweeteners for diet coke etc.

I don't have a clue but in 1990 that is what she believed.

[earth mom]

75. Could be the vaccinations plus other triggers like pollution or

artificial sweeteners as was posted on this thread.

But what can't be ignored is that there is a before and after once these kids got the vaccinations. Sort of like the straw that broke the camels back.

Btw, I'm pissed off at the naysayers too. They just want all of us to shut up. Makes you wonder who they work for if you catch my drift.

[The Minus World]

90. Could be x+y

You really must consider the fact that not everyone that opposes your line of thinking is not a "Shill for Big Pharma" or something equally sinister.

Perhaps those individuals who object to your posts the loudest are those with backgrounds in science and medicine, who feel it is disingenuous to assume causality between autism and vaccinations based on an article which provides no scientific basis for those claims.

You may call me a naysayer if you'd like, but I firmly believe that individuals such as yourself who spread alarmist, paranoid claims against childhood vaccinations are doing more harm than good.

[earth mom]

103. There is a doctor on this thread and the spouse of a doctor who say it's possible.

But I guess their medical and scientific minds aren't good enough for you. Guess you have to pick and choose your information to fit your theory. :eyes:

Excuse me, but there is NOTHING paranoid about millions of parents watching their child change overnight after being jabbed with a needle full of poison.

Guess it's not "alarming" enough for you-because you must protect the status quo or your own "beautiful mind" from reality.

Excuse me, but the cold hard fact here is that millions of parents are telling the medical and scientific industry that something is wrong, very wrong.

Meanwhile, that medical industry is doing EVERYTHING they can do to dismiss, discount, and disrespect those parents because they aren't willing to take one smidgen of responsibility for something that will cost them MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of dollars. That industry made DAMN sure they were protected by * & Co from those parents now didn't they? Why was that necessary if the science isn't there as you say?

If big pharma really wanted to PROVE IT they would allow some real unbiased scientific studies to be done, but they won't allow it. Instead, they have swooped down on any attempts with disinfo and smear tactics. Hell, they even have their shills working on message boards like this one.

[seabeyond]

137. i actually had a poster tell me IF true, oh well, the few for the benefit of the many

i was saddened. i would say outraged, but i know this posters ignorance, and non experience in living with a child that feels so disconnected and not a part, the pain in that childs heart, the challenges to make it thru days......

the poster doesnt have a clue.

but why the initial thought would not be..... if there is a problem fix it, so it helps those from the illness shot is protecting and doesnt hurt any others. why must we sacrifice... for the profit line of a corp

also the mercury in tuna, our water.... may not be JUST the shots. might even be the mumps/measle shot too close to each.

i dont give a fuck what it is, i want it fixed and protect our kids. that should be the common goal, want, need.

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. I'm unconvinced that vaccinations are *the* or maybe even the primary trigger.

I am convinced that the cause is largely environmental, a view which is shared by many doctors.

In fact, when researchers look for a cause, they find that there are pockets where the rate of occurrence is higher. The puget sound area, and silicon valley are two. In what seems to me to be monumental stupidity, they use these environmental correlations to surmise that the cause is genetic. "We all know that there are a high concentration of geeks living in Seattle and San Jose". :banghead:

[earth mom]

104. You may be unconvinced, but there are millions of parents who are sure or who are suspicious

and that should not be discounted. There is a doctor on this thread and the spouse of a doctor who say it's possible. I find this to be very interesting and it proves to me that the prevalence of disinformation has made this tragedy all the more obfuscated and confusing. I'm sure that is the intention of big pharma. Because if even some of the parents of children taken down in this epidemic are doubtful and won't even listen to what other parents (who are going through the same thing as they are) have to share about their experience, then big pharma has won their disinfo campaign now haven't they?

[earth mom]

73. I agree it's heartbreaking-and doubly so because of the cover up & protection of the pharma giants

at the expense of innocent children and their families.

:cry:

[seabeyond]

136. i know having son in 95, not knowing the issue, his two yr old shots in 97

did smoething to him. i know it in my heart. i watched that kid. it is not genetic. it is not something we have seen in either family. it is different. and i see it in so many of his class mates. i have been watching for a decade now. these children are drawn to me. they are amazing, and something happened.

[McCamy Taylor]

82. I am a physician and I am not surprised at all. I developed a mild case

of encephalitis after last's years influenza vaccine. I reported it to the FDA as you are supposed to. If the flu shot can do this, I would guess that any vaccine could. It was mild as encephalitis goes---sleepy for a week, headache, stiff neck, fever , mildly out of it, light hurt my eyes. But if this happened to a baby with a developing brain it could cause subtle damage.

I believe the answer is to limit childhood immunizations to those that prevent life threatening illnesses like tetanus and delay them as long as possible. Have mothers breast feed for natural immunity. Do routine immunizations when kids are adolescents and have better immune systems and more developed brains. My bout of encephalitis did not harm me, because I have an adult brain.

[earth mom]

89. A most interesting & informative post on this thread. Thank you & glad you're ok!

:hi:

[cureautismnow]

123. The cover-up still continues...

I posted the following link from the vaccine compensation statistics page in late January. http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/statistics_report.htm

Under Adjudications, Autism Compensable FY 2008, there WAS ONE NOTED. I even mentioned the significance of this in a previous thread.

As you can plainly see now, ONE has been changed back to ZERO.

I suppose it's just par for the course for this lying SOS Bush Administration to try to rewrite history. Bastards. :mad:

[earth mom]

127. Thank you for posting that info! And people on this thread wonder what the big deal is?

The pharma giants are working overtime to cover this thing up and have * Co & Congress in their back pocket.

It's disgusting. :grr:

[cureautismnow]

128. Yes, the herd mentality people turn a blind eye to these "numbers"...

...which just happen to be REAL CHILDREN, that have been proven in courts of law, to have been INJURED or KILLED by the "do-gooders'" sacred vaccines. They're sacrificial lambs to Big Pharma's bottom line ---> $.

GD them all. :mad:

[seabeyond]

138. much easier to put head into sand than acknowledge, brainstorm and fix

kinda like the bushco sheep that close their eyes so they dont see.

[lovuian]

124. Children in Nursery get Hepatitis vaccines

a little baby isn't going to get hepatitis

and yet the vaccines are given even now and the baby isn't even a day old

What are we doing to our children

[earth mom]

126. Exactly. What are we allowing to be done to our children?

:(

[lovuian]

147. Sad part is you go in and ask the parents to give permission

written and they trustingly do it

If I was a new parent and they ask you don't you can have you child do what mine did get it in college

[defendandprotect]

145. We have a runaway corporate influence over health care that has to be stopped --- !!!

I'd recommend that anyone who hasn't read "Women, Our Bodies, Ourselves" by the Boston Women's Health Collective start there if you don't understand this ---

All libraries usually have a copy ---

[Jack 4 Ohio]

143. I know a kid affected by this, it is too painful to bring it up with his parents nt

[Junkdrawer]

152. Kick

[seemslikeadream]

153. kick

[Viking12]

154. Thanks for kicking

Now I know which asshat anti-vax conpiracy theorists to put on ignore along with the Holocaust Deniers, Global Warming Deniers, and 9/11 Troofers.