Spanking Raises Chances of Risky, Deviant Sexual Behavior

[StrongBad]

http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/healthday/080228/spanking-raises-chances-of-risky-deviant-sexual-behavior.htm

THURSDAY, Feb. 28 (HealthDay News) -- Researchers have uncovered another damaging consequence of spanking: risky sexual behaviors, or even sexual deviancy, when the child grows up.

"This adds one more harmful side effect to spanking," said Murray Straus, a spanking expert who was expected to present the findings of four studies at the American Psychological Association's Summit on Violence and Abuse in Relationships in Bethesda, Md., on Thursday.

"I think that it's pretty powerful," said Elizabeth Gershoff, an assistant professor at the University of Michigan's School of Social Work. "It's across several studies and across different forms of either risky or deviant sexual behavior."

Straus, who was the author of all four studies, hopes the findings will raise awareness among child development experts.

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Just trying to keep DU as flametastic as possible :)

[Crunchy Frog]

1. I guess that could explain some of what's going on with the Christian right

and the Republican party. Spanking children seems to be part of their ethos.

[lapfog_1]

2. spare the rod and spoil the child...

I think Jesus preached that in a number of his sermons from the mount.

[StrongBad]

13. I think that's in the Old Testament actually

I still don't understand why many Christians put more stock in that book rather than the one that focuses on Jesus's teachings.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

18. To answer both points...

(1) You are correct its in proverbs 13
(2) Jesus himself said "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill"

The new and old testament go together, Jesus often quotes and references the old testament..

[lapfog_1]

26. I left off the "sarcasm" smilie tag

Jesus never said this. Yes it was in the old testament.

[JerseygirlCT]

29. That phrase is also totally misunderstood

by most. The "rod" wasn't used to hit the sheep, but to literally guide them. So the phrase properly means "guide your children, or they won't be well-raised". Makes perfect sense, of course.

Violence toward children is NOT what's being suggested there!

Just FYI

[StrongBad]

32. Interesting. Did not know that. Thanks.

[MindPilot]

40. Interesting! I always thought it was an admonishment AGAINST physical discipline

Don't be too harsh, let the kids be kids, it's OK to spoil 'em because they only get to be young once, life is too short kind of thing.

Of course this is from the same book which in another part suggests stoning the little fuckers to death for disobedience. Maybe that only applies to teenagers.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

56. No youre reading it completely wrong.

The Literal translation from Hebrew is closer to:

He that spares his rod hates his son; but he that loves him (his son) chasteneth him betimes.

weather or not Rod means physical discipline (which I believe) or any corrective action (which might work here but is strictly contradicted in Proverbs 23) is a reasonable debate but it is clearly not endorsing spoiling a kid.

[LeftyMom]

180. Shepherds don't hit the sheep. The word translated as rod means shepherd's crook.

It's used not to hit but to guide a wayward sheep back to the flock and the correct path.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

204. This is arguable were in not for Proverbs 23

Which is pretty clear on physical discipline. Shepard's did not beat their flock but at times they do slightly more than poke them..

[LeftyMom]

213. How do you resolve hitting a two year old with love, meekness, mercy and other things Jesus preached

or, for that matter, with common sense? Kids that age lack the ability to predict consequences of their actions and are still a bit shaky on the relationship between cause and effect. A two year old doesn't know that she was being hit on the ass because she did something bad, let alone think of the possibility of the punishment before renewing the offense. Their brains just don't work that way yet.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

215. This is the same Jesus...

Who fashioned a whip to remove people from the temple right?

The same Christ who said he came with a sword?

--

With Common sense... Simple its not done to physically harm but it does get the childs attention? Its the fact that kids are shaky on cause and effect that makes a light pat on the bottom effective in explaining otherwise subtle effects of their actions..

[LeftyMom]

216. I don't recall Jesus whipping children, nor anything about attacking one with a sword.

I do recall something about suffering little children, when the apostles would rather not, which suggests to me that he would have advised patience with the little ones.

Then again, if you're faced with contradictory passages, and consistently choose only those which allow you to visit violence on toddlers, I don't suppose there's any talking sense into you, but it does suggest you glossed over all the admirable parts of the christian message in favor of the things that sensible and decent people left behind 'round about the Enlightenment.

[LostinVA]

218. Everything you are quoting to justify hitting children is Old Testament

Do you have anything from the words of Christ to justify hitting children?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

220. Christ was very clear that he did not come to abolish the law of the old testament..

BTW do you have kids?

[fishwax]

230. It's also clear that he transformed it

That he came "not to abolish" does not mean that the law of the Old Testament remains unchanged. Clearly it does not. ("What God has made clean, you are not to call unclean.)

He said that the law would not pass until everything was accomplished, which is precisely why he had come: "I have come not to abolish, but to fulfill" (to satisfy, to complete, to bring to an end). (Among his last words: "It is finished.")

[mondo joe]

41. Proverbs 23:14, however, seems pretty explicty pro-beating.

"If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol."

But I don't think the bible is a good source for child rearing advice.

[JerseygirlCT]

63. Well, I'm no expert, but before I was ready to go there as far as meaning, I'd

probably want to look at the translations, etc.

But it's true, there's plenty of inconsistency about things like that. Which could be problematic if one wants to use the Bible as a rule book...

[mzmolly]

146. Proverbs are to be taken 'proverbally' according to a Rabbi I once

encountered.

[Voice for Peace]

189. I wouldn't use the old testament for parenting advice either.

And what gives the old testament any authority about anything, actually?

[mondo joe]

208. Or the New, for that matter?

[lapfog_1]

47. I missed putting the "sarcasm" tag on my post.

I always have to remind myself to do that.

[JerseygirlCT]

66. Actually, I did figure as much. But I like to straighten this little bit

out at every opportunity! One less kid hit because of scripture being misread is A-ok with me!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

54. Rods had both uses

See Psalms 27(?) Thy Rod *and* Thy Staff...

Spanking when not done in anger is not violence. Yelling at when done in anger is violence.

Violence is a heart issue not an action issue..

[LostinVA]

55. Oh brother -- violence is an action issue

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

58. Lets say a husband

Belittles a wife to the point she wants to kill herself, is that *not* emotional violence? Are you saying that violence requires a physical component?

[LostinVA]

61. No -- there is such a thing as verbal abuse, but it's not any better or worse than physical abuse

Hitting is physical abuse.

Call me crazy but I'd rather use modern psychology as a guide than The Book of Mormon, though.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

72. and if If's and Buts were Candy and Nuts...

Violence does not require physical action you just said so your self... so if abuse can happen without physical actions we have separated the relationship you have been attempting to build between the two..

The next step is to say can there be an instance when physical action is *not* violent?

If I see my kid running towards the street and I yank their shirt because of an oncoming car is that violent? I have just physically corrected my kids and as it happens they might fall and hurt themselves because of it..

--

BTW Nice try but I dont subscribe to the book or mormon..

[LostinVA]

77. Saving your kid's life is not the same as spanking them and you know it

Really? Your past posts say otherwise.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

84. It most certainly is

Why did I spank her? because I don't want her running around the house at night without being watched. I tried many forms of discipline before I got to spanking but it was done for her ultimate safety.

BTW Please show me a post supporting the book of Mormon in my history..

[LostinVA]

91. LOL -- you'll justify spanking with anything, won't you?

What other church has Elders?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

106. Baptist Churches, Bible Pres Churches, ....,.....

Many many churches have an eldership..

[Midlodemocrat]

93. How about babyproofing the house? Or putting a gate at her door?

Letting her play quietly in her room until she fell asleep? Those are all solutions that don't involve hitting. And, dude, hitting a 2 year old is particularly heinous.

[LostinVA]

95. Well, babyproofing takes time and gates cost money

Might as well just hit the baby.

:puke:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

109. You dont know my kid

She found her way over one gate so I put up a second on to a total hight of 4 feet and she went right over both of them!

As to playing until she falls asleep I do let her do that so long as its in her room and its not so loud her 1yo sister cant sleep.

Spanking a 2yo is far less heinous than spanking a 10 yo

[Midlodemocrat]

114. Put a screen door on her room.

Remove the door and put a screen door in place that you can lock from the outside. You can see her, you'll know she's safe, which is the utmost priority, and you won't have to hit her out of frustration.

Spanking any aged child is horrible. It means you've given up. You've lost the battle. If you're spanking her a 2, what are you going to be doing to punish her at 16?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

124. Clueless....

My brothers son drowned at 18 months old, he broke through a baby gate a patio door and a screen door while others were upstairs preparing for a wedding...

Spanking is more appropriate at 2 than 16 because you have a very limited ability to reason with a 2yo and even at that my kid gets spanked *maybe* once a year. By the time they are 7 spanking out completely out..

[Midlodemocrat]

126. I'm sorry about your nephew.

But, I would have had the pool covered because no one was available to watch the baby.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

132. The pool was covered...

A 2yo thought he could walk out on the cover and ended up being sucked under by it. Kids in my family are particularly good at getting into things they are not supposed to, hell my oldest brother once crawled out a second story window to get out of timeout and fell into a rose bush.

Point is sometimes you cant explain the danger to a 2yo, and if all else fails a light spanking can get their attention so you can explain it to them.

[Midlodemocrat]

138. Which is why they need to be watched all the times.

Especially when there is a pool in the yard. One of my best friends lost his baby that way. He thought his wife was watching the baby and she thought he was.

I never have had a pool in my backyard and when my kids were little there was no way I wanted one. I've got ADD too severely for that.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

147. They were in from out of town for a wedding

Staying with a friend and still they took all the precautions, put him down for a nap he only napped half the time he usually did.. He was as resourceful as kids come..

[MissB]

172. Spanking is not more appropriate at 2.

For that matter, it isn't appropriate period.

Two year olds don't have reasoning skills. That is why you are supposed to keep an eye on them at all times and use redirection constantly until they've developed their reasoning skills. It is exhausing work, but child rearing doesn't require spanking.

[Maine-ah]

260. no, a 2 yo doesn't understand it.

a 10 yo does.

now, I was spanked, I have no issues with it either. And I'm only slightly perverted....:evilgrin:

[mondo joe]

99. Amzingly enough, both of my kids have survived and prospered without ever being spanked.

I don't think safety is a justification. It's a choice you made.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

113. Amazingly enough my mothers seven kids have survived and prospered with spanking

not one deviant, criminal, emotionally shut off, or damaged person among them..

[Midlodemocrat]

116. That old argument, that 'I was spanked and I turned out okay' is crap.

We know better now. Spanking is wrong.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

122. So is the argument

'I was not spanked and turned out ok'

[Midlodemocrat]

129. Not really. That's like saying

I didn't get shot and I turned out okay. NOT doing something and having someone turn out okay is not the same as that old statement about 'I was blah, blah, blah'

In all honesty, if that were the truth, the spankings should have subsided early enough on that the person stating that doesn't remember them. But, that's never the case.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

137. The presumes a spanking

is in and of itself harmful. IOW if Im wrong then of course he is right...

[Midlodemocrat]

139. But it IS harmful! You're physically hurting your child

by a spanking! If you weren't why do it? It's to redden their little butts. And, the emotional issue is another one altogether.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

148. Patting my kid lightly over pullups

Is not physically hurting them..

[riderinthestorm]

162. Then why do it? What is the point unless you were trying to/did inflict pain?

If it was just to psyche her out, there are far more effective methods than simulating beating her?!

[pnwmom]

235. When you combine the location of the pain, the exposure, and the

powerlessness, a child COULD experience it like a rape.

I would never have taken a chance like that with one of my children.

[mondo joe]

156. Except that you have depicted spaning as necessary for safety.

So pointing out the flaw in your reasoning is quite appropriate.

[CRF450]

196. Yet this one is mostly true...

"I was never spanked and now I'm a totally spoiled brat!".

One of my best friend's used to live accross the road from my last home, he has two little brothers, which his mom could not keep under control when their dad was gone to work. She never spanks them, she tries other means of discipline but they hardly work. But when the dad shows up, they settle down right then, cause he does the spanking! Now in their early teens, they're starting to settle down quite a bit.

[fishwax]

209. not mostly true at all

anecdotal evidence notwithstanding ...

[Pithlet]

227. Not true in my exprience, either.

My anecdotal experiences have been the opposite. Spanking is far less common, even here in Redstateville where I live, but the ones who do usually have the worst behaved children. For example there was a spanker at the Gymboree I took my sons to when they were little, and his little girl was constantly going around hitting the other kids, when she wasn't screaming her head off for no reason. She'd take them right over her knee, just like I'm sure her father did to her. He stopped coming to the group. I felt so bad for her.

[Xenotime]

259. Exactly. Almost criminal.

[mondo joe]

152. I don't see what that has to do with your depiction of spanking as a safety requirement.

[LeftyMom]

182. Seven? Somebody should have spanked your Dad.

Holy crap.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

203. LOL, yea but Mom always wanted alot of kids and they were spaced out over nearly 17 years.

She had five kids in the first 7 years of marriage and then no more for eight years, and then finally two years later me...

Truth be know if pregnancies were not so hard on my wife she would have liked to give my mom a run for her money but hyper emesis makes that too difficult. We have two and we may have two more but no more until the angels are in school (or I win the lottery ;)

[flvegan]

192. I disagree, considering the posts one of them makes here from time to time.

[pnwmom]

233. That is fortunate. Your mother was probably able to keep her rage in check.

Not all parents can, though.

[mzmolly]

149. Good for you Mondo Joe.

I've not spanked my nine year old, nor has anyone else. She's a great kid, in spite of our "neglect". ;) I don't ever intend to spank, either. I do yell from time to time, "get in her now and pick up this room!" and am not proud of that, however I don't endorse it as effective discipline.

[Voice for Peace]

190. Spanking teaches kids that when someone displeases them, they should hit them.

[pnwmom]

236. There is nothing sicker, I think, than associating God's love with pain. n/t

[Jamastiene]

210. I wish you had been around when I was growing up and

could have told my mother, the principal of the school, my teachers and several aunts and uncles that.

[JerseygirlCT]

219. It could be an awfully handy out, I suppose

"Well, it's ok to hit them, the Bible says so!"

I'm sorry for you. Fortunately, that wasn't my experience, but I think I might have been the minority on that.

[Voice for Peace]

187. yes, he said suffer the little children to come to me

so I can SPANK 'em!

[defendandprotect]

82. Tough LOVE . . . or something . . .

[zanne]

255. Is that what happened to Matcom and Underpants?

I kid! I kid!

[Lance_Boyle]

3. "Murray Straus, a spanking expert"

That's one of the best titles ever, on up there with "Chief Hacking Officer."

Regretfully, though, I won't be reading Dr. Spankenexpert's "research." I was spanked as a child, and I have a 2:30 appointment for a retention enema and some cock and ball torture. :eyes:

[GodlessBiker]

10. Oh, behave! I bet she shags like a minx.

[orleans]

46. LOL! n/t

[truebrit71]

65. ROFL!!!

Sorry but that is just laugh out loud funny!!!

:rofl:

[Canuckistanian]

195. Are there courses you can take?

Jest askin'... :eyes:

[BoneDaddy]

226. lol

that was funny

[flygal]

246. HA!

:rofl: Cock and ball torture :rofl: That's the funniest thing I've heard since I found out what teabagging was!

[Ian David]

4. He says "Sexual Deviancy" as if it's a bad thing.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7e/Leather,_Latex,_and_BDSM_pride_-_Light.svg/800px-Leather,_Latex,_and_BDSM_pride_-_Light.svg.png

[zanne]

9. HAH! nt

[katty]

5. apparently, 99.9% of ReThugs got spanked in childhood

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

6. Not buying it

I don't particularly trust meta-analysis studies, especially those that are authored by someone who already has a strong point of view..

The study summary also glosses over this tidbit:

"There is a "dose response" at work here. "The more parents spank, the higher the probability of harmful side effects," Straus noted."

So its including parents who may spank their kids once in a great while (I dont think Ive spanked my daughter in at least six months) with physically abusive parents..

Pretty flawed methodology aimed at a specific outcome, she should be in the science wing of the * administration..

[stanwyck]

70. Why spank at all?

All you're saying to your daughter is that you're stronger than her and you don't know how to discipline without resorting to brute force. You're teaching: might makes right. And it's lazy parenting. You've given up so you use physical force against a child.
Do as I say or else I'll hit you.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

89. THat might be your opinion

My opinion is that sending a kid to bed without dinner, or grounding them, or removing a privilege (like Blues Clues), also does nothing other than show your kid 'who's boss'.

I discipline my kids in more than a half doze ways, I can count the number of spankings on one hand in the nearly three years she has been alive. Yet daily she seems to need discipline of some sort or another.

"You're teaching: might makes right. And it's lazy parenting." No youre not, no more than when you use our might to take a toy away.

[stanwyck]

178. You might want to consider

parenting classes. You could use some help before things get out of control. What you're doing is using pain as a means of controlling your child. You've reduced yourself in your child's eyes to a bully. What is your child learning? To get her way, she can use physical pain. Think about how that could play out in her future. She now also associates Daddy's love with pain. Is that what you want for your child?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

211. How sad...

I have not had to spank my daughter for six months yet I have disciplined her... You did not even read my post..

[NeedleCast]

7. What's sexually risky/deviant?

By a lot of standards what I and some of my previous partners have enjoyed sexually would probably be considred risky or deviant. Ahhhhh, found it!

*snip*
They found that spanking and other corporal punishment is associated with an increased probability of verbally and physically coercing a dating partner to have sex; risky sex such as premarital sex without using a condom; and masochistic sex such as spanking during sex.
*snip*

Damn, if premarital sex without a condom and spanking/biting during sex or foreplay is risky or deviant the world has gotten pretty fucking vanilla. What does verbally coercng a dating partner mean? That I'm trying to talk them into hooking up with me? Is that bad? Damn if I cant run game at a bar and have to rely soley on my looks to pick up women I'm going to be hurting.

The author of this bullshit should be shot out of a catapult into the sun. If she's happy with her puritan sex, that's cool. Some of us dig things a little more frisky and to call spanking during sex deviant is pretty fucked up in my opinion.

[StrongBad]

11. Agree on that

They're really stretching the label "deviant" by including some fairly typical acts numerous couples enjoy.

[w8liftinglady]

15. I was thinking the same thing...I was a dominatrix for years...it was fun,and fulfilled a need

in both myself and my partner

[NeedleCast]

Thanks

I've never had a dominatrix experience but I wouldn't think that's any sort of deviant behavior either. If two (or more) adults are down with doing some sexual experimentation and indulging in sex they enjoy, what's the BFD? If the author of that hit piece had concentrated on RISKY behavior, like having unprotected casual sex with someone you don't know then maybe I could take it a little more seriously but to suggest that premarital sex without a condom is risky/deviant in all situations is ridiculous. To suggest that spanking is risky/deviant is ridiculous. Of course common sense should tell us there is a difference between sex spanking for pleasure and being abusive to someone, but I see no mention of that in the article, thus it sounds to me like the conclusion is that all sexual spanking = deviant.

[The Straight Story]

64. Hi Mistress w8liftinglady - may I have another

:rofl:

[w8liftinglady]

68. hehe....if you so desire...and deserve

[truebrit71]

69. You took the ball-gag right out of my mouth...

...Now for a cold shower......

[w8liftinglady]

136. hehe-I don't like gags...

anyway..I was spanked...it didn't scar me..I thank my mom profusely for instilling discipline in me..

[truebrit71]

142. ...and I can thank her too after you discipline me....

...:spank:

:evilgrin:

[w8liftinglady]

145. hehe..now-time to shower..

[Deja Q]

191. Are you still offering services?

:evilgrin:

[w8liftinglady]

193. hehe-I'm too tired-you'll have to spank yourself

[Chovexani]

20. Anything other than vanilla sex with the lights off

:puke:

[NeedleCast]

22. Insanity!

If things don't fall off the walls you're doing it wrong!

;-)

[The Straight Story]

62. If that's deviant, what the hell do they call what my wife and I do...

Hell, they'll be wanting to lock me up if they ever found out that we....well, have too much damned fun :rofl:

[LostinVA]

8. It's ridiculous for this researcher to compare spousal/date rape and unprotected sex with BDSM

There's nothing wrong with BDSM, as long as it's between adults and everything is safe, sane and consensual. I think it's ridiculous to smear it as deviant.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

12. This researcher hates spanking..

They did before the study so they will use whatever language they think elevates their point. There is no group that this type of person wont throw under the bus to accomplish their ends..

[LostinVA]

19. Well, I think spanking kids is never right

If you did it to an adult who pissed you off, it'd be assault. I think it damages relationships between kids and parents. There are far more effective methods of discipline.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

24. Over spanking is wrong

(1) Never spank in anger or on the spur of the moment
(2) Always tell your kids *explicitly* why you are spanking them
(3) When its over talk with your kid about what happened and why
(4) Spanking should be a seldom used punishment and should not be used so often that its what your kid comes to expect..
(5) Spanking should be completely done by the time the kids is 5-7 years old by that point in time a kids can be reasoned with enough to eliminate the need.

--

For awhile after my daughter grew too big for a crib she refused to sleep, she would constantly come out of her room at all hors of the night and cause trouble. I tried positive and negative reenforcement, I tried reasoning (as much as one can with a toddler), and I tried everything and still no effect..

Then I finally broke down on night, sat her on my lap and explained what was about to happen and why. I told her I hated to do it but she had pushed things this far I told her I loved her despite what was going to happen and I always would. Then I spanked her bottom (she was wearing a pullup) three times. She wailed and it did break my heart, I hugged her and told her that she is still loved and safe and asked if she understood it was time for bed now... She said yes, gave me a hug and went to bed..

She has not had a problem (other than once or twice) going to bed, nor does she fear coming out if she really needs something (like a drink or a hug if she had a bad dream). Spanking works when done right..

[NeedleCast]

27. Very Reasonable, IMO

As a person who does not plan to have children, this really isn't my fight, but I think what you did is very reasonable. I say this, because I suspect that you will soon be accused of child abuse by some here on DU.

(and I was right...)

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

35. Thanks

I hesitated to post it because I knew there was a chance at such a reaction.

But people seldom hear from practicing parents who have a healthy attitude towards dicipline that includes spanking.

[LostinVA]

51. That's because advocating spanking is NOT a healthy attitude

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

76. Spanking is not an attitude its an action..

An emotionally withdrawn or cruel person can stab ten times as deep as a spanking..

[LostinVA]

111. WTF does stabbing have to do with spanking? So it's okay because you're not stabbing the kid?

Down the rabbit hole we go.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

115. Stabbing was metaphorical

Sorry if it was over your head...

But a harsh word to a kid can cut more deeply than a spanking..

[pnwmom]

238. A cruel person could kill a child. What does that prove? n/t

[NashVegas]

169. That's What I Used To Think

Until I realized that I every spanking I ever had was brought on because I did something that made my mom have feelings (usually fear) that she couldn't cope with and so, couldn't control.

[LostinVA]

28. I think it's bad parenting

Now your Temple Elders may not agree, but real experts are on my side.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

30. The same experts who consider

spousal/date rape and unprotected sex with BDSM to be equivalently unhealthy results...

Great company...

[LostinVA]

31. That's one idiot -- I've never seen anyone else make that comparision

It's not right for anyone to hit anyone else without their consent. You shouldn't hit your kid. You shouldn't hit your dog. It's taking advantage of someone weaker, because you can't handle it reasonably.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

33. Well the name calling did not take long..

"It's not right for anyone to hit anyone else without their consent." - It is my right to discipline my children how I see fit so long as it is from love for the child. You want to spoil kids in your life rotten have at it but dont you dare to presume to know better for my kids..

"You shouldn't hit your kid." - I dont 'hit' my kid, I spank her (and rarely at that) on her covered bum and even more rarely her hand.

"You shouldn't hit your dog." - I dont have a dog but if I did it would have the same rules as a kid because like a 2yo sometimes they will not take to any other form of discipline.

"It's taking advantage of someone weaker" - Right spanking is taking advantage of someone weaker but depriving them of desert, sending them to bed early, yelling at them, or grounding them is not... /sarc

"because you can't handle it reasonably" - Im very reasonable in how I discipline my kids, dont you presume to tell other how to raise their kids..

[LostinVA]

43. Oh brother -- let me break it down for you

"It is my right to discipline my children how I see fit so long as it is from love for the child. You want to spoil kids in your life rotten have at it but dont you dare to presume to know better for my kids.."
How about loving your kids enough to not resort to physical punishment? It's absurd to think without spanking kids are "spoiled rotten." My mother never spanked me, and she certainly never spoiled me. She was a far more effective displinarian than my father.

"I dont 'hit' my kid, I spank her (and rarely at that) on her covered bum and even more rarely her hand."
Spanking is hitting. End of story.

"I dont have a dog but if I did it would have the same rules as a kid because like a 2yo sometimes they will not take to any other form of discipline."
It's a shame you can't find more effective ways of discipline. They do exist, but I guess you're looking for the easy way out. If you told your wife not to do something, and she did it anyway, would you hit her? Obviously, she didn't respond to your words.

"Right spanking is taking advantage of someone weaker but depriving them of desert, sending them to bed early, yelling at them, or grounding them is not... /sarc"
It's inflicting physical pain on someone weaker. None of those other punishments inflict physical pain on someone.

"Im very reasonable in how I discipline my kids, dont you presume to tell other how to raise their kids.."
Reasonable people don't respond to physical "punishment." They use their heads.

[orleans]

48. you might want to check for a video called "1..2..3.. magic"

or something to that effect.

i used to have it, met the guy who made it (at a lecture he gave) and it was great. i used that technique when i needed to and fortunately (for me) i didn't need to that often at all. it's a time out technique. (the thought is: if she wanted to be in her room playing she would be in there, so it's punishment and removing them from the situation)

i don't even remember the guy who did it. and maybe i'll look for it later for you, but i gotta run right now.

[LostinVA]

50. I think you meant to reply to Dadof2littleangels with this

But, I do think that would be a good suggestion for him.

[orleans]

202. sorry--i did mean to reply to him. he read the post, because he

replied. but thanks.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

117. I do timeouts all the time

[orleans]

199. dad--see post 166--that is what i was talking about, but couldn't remember. n/t

[Greyskye]

166. HIGHLY recommend 1 2 3 Magic

http://www.parentmagic.com/

Worked wonders with our ADHD son. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[orleans]

201. that's it! thanks for the link

i remember when i went to see him speak he told a story about his son (adhd) and one morning his wife went into the son's room to see how he was doing (maybe he was getting ready for school) and he had cut the toes out of all his socks because he couldn't stand the seam. i thought that was really funny--because my daughter would always pull her socks down far enough away from the toes that she could tuck the seam up on top so it wouldn't bother her.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

53. LOL You just dont get it..

"How about loving your kids enough to not resort to physical punishment?" - Oh so emotional punishment is superior? Heck when I dont let my kids watch TV she is more distressed than when I spank her...

"Spanking is hitting. End of story." - Strictly speaking so is high fiveing.

"It's a shame you can't find more effective ways of discipline." - LOL! There is no one way to discipline a kid, I told you I have not spanked my kid in six months or so do you think she has been perfect and I have not needed to discipline?

"It's inflicting physical pain on someone weaker. None of those other punishments inflict physical pain on someone." - Ask most people their most painful memories are and 9/10 will talk about emotional or social rejection. I know that when I was a kid I was spanked I have vague memories of it but for the life of me I can manage to be 'hurt' by them, now some of the things said in anger by my father hurt to this day... Like I said *all discipline* is performed by someone in a stronger position on someone in a weaker position, and if you think taking a kids toy away does less 'damage' than a measured spanking done in love you're quite silly.

"Reasonable people don't respond to physical "punishment." They use their heads." - How many toddlers do you live with?

[LostinVA]

59. It's pretty sick that instead of using your head, you have to resort to violence with a 2-year-old

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

67. nothing violent in the manner that I discipline my kids

vi·o·lence (v-lns)
n.
1. Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing: crimes of violence.
2. The act or an instance of violent action or behavior.
3. Intensity or severity, as in natural phenomena; untamed force: the violence of a tornado.
4. Abusive or unjust exercise of power.
5. Abuse or injury to meaning, content, or intent: do violence to a text.
6. Vehemence of feeling or expression; fervor.

Given my purpose is not to damage or abuse (1)
Given negative on (1) then (2) is also out
Given I am not an untamed force (3) is out
Given I am not unjust in how I practice it (4) is out
Given I am not dealing with altering meaning, content, or intent (5) is out
Given my feeling is note vehement (6) is out..

But Were I to abuse my power because I was angry and throw out my kids favorite toys though I did not lay a hand on them I would be acting violently..

[LostinVA]

71. Throwing out your kid's favorite toy is wrong, just as HITTING is wrong

Spin it however you want, spanking is hitting.

You see Midlodemocrat's response down below? She's a psychologist for families/kids. She knows what she's talking about.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

94. I have my own kids who I knew better than her...

BTW what about taking a toy away for the day? week? what about grounding? Arnt you teaching your kid if you have more power its ok to deprive other people of things?

[LostinVA]

98. You're just trying to justify physically abusing toddlers, out of laziness -- it's disgusting

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

119. Who the hell do you think you are

You dont know me, how dare you imply that Im a lazy parent... You have no idea what my daily interaction is with my kids all you know is once in a *great* while I might give a light pat on the bum over a pullup. Must be nice to be clairvoyant..

Are you a parent? how many kids do you have at home?

[Amaya]

134. whoa!

that's a little over the line... your equating a few pats on the bottom with child abuse?
wow... just wow

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

155. Seriously the crap it here is killing me

Im about to ditch this thread because there are so many people in here that know better for my girls than I do...

one or two people have been reasonable about it but LostinVA has been a first class ass...

[Bluebear]

157. As an aside, I have seen people wallop kids & call it 'a few pats on the bottom'

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

158. Well I can assure you

I dont wallop my girls, three light pats over pullups or pants.

[riderinthestorm]

164. I reiterate my question then why do it at all? If you aren't "really" (cough) hurting them

why do it at all? Simulating beating them for what purpose? To psyche them out? This seems a pretty twisted way to discipline your child!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

214. It gets their attention...

hence it must be followed before and after with instruction. Its not about hurting the kid and by the by emotional abuse is 10 times worse than physical abuse..

[LostinVA]

181. The kid is TWO and he's been doing it since the kid was even younger

You think using physical punishment on an infant is okay?

It's a grown man physically hitting an infant/toddler. You're okay with that?

[Amaya]

243. I've tap the bottom of my 2 year old before

( I know, the horror! )
anyway- my daughter didn't want to hold my hand as we were walking on a busy street ( asked her a few times to do it, she wouldn't)
it got her attention,it wasn't hard, she didn't cry and listen right away.
it worked for me at that time- does it make me a bad mother, lazy or disgusting?


I don't think you have many two year olds around you. Well, I have... their reasoning abilities are very limited, if any. you can talk until you're blue in the face and most of the time they don't get it.
you can give time outs and sometimes they still don't get it.


you seriously can't so rigid in your thought process as to think a father who tap his two year child on the bottom when all else fails , is a child abuser. a child abuser??
you and I have a very different view of abuse.

i don't expect you'll agree with anything i said- but it doesn't matter- i know what kind of game this is- it isn't a debate- it's a pile on.
so have at it.
:)

- not really to you specifically .. just in a general statement-
(I'm as liberal and progressive as they come, and have a very open mind. What I see a lot on the DU are "liberals & progressives" being so unbelievably close-minded and rigid.
It seems there is no middle ground on DU. It's just as bad as the right-wing nut-cases running the country.

[L0oniX]

252. I am with ya here and ...there is a reason I see a lot of ignores in this thread.

[Midlodemocrat]

83. Hitting isn't discipline. It's punitive.

Discipline means teaching. Hitting them isn't teaching them a damned thing, it's just satisfying your desire for power. :puke:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

96. If all you do is spank I agree..

Spanking needs to be done in context and *with* instruction and *without* passion..

I dont spank my kids to feel power and no matter what little steriotype box you want to jam me in that wont be any more true today than it was yesterday.

[Midlodemocrat]

104. Spanking is wrong. Spanking two year old is particularly wrong.

Whatever you think about spanking, you're sending them the wrong message. That might makes right.

In my practice, the parents that I saw who spanked were the lazy ones. And if by without passion, you mean not in anger, that is even worse. A child can forgive you for losing it, but they'll never forgive you for hitting them when you are calm and in control.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

121. I call bravo sierra

I am wed to someone who was an abused and trust me when I say a kid would *much* rather have a parent who will say, please stop that or Ill have to spank you, go over it with them first and then do it than to *never* feel safe because their parents are prone to 'losing it'..

It took my wife 5 years to get comfortable with me touching her above the neck because of the crap she put up with as a kid.

You wanna call me lazy because my kids has been spanked three or four times in her life without even knowing me, fine... Im sure you're great at diagnosing people you dont know based on some DU post..

[Midlodemocrat]

125. I didn't call you lazy.

I said the patients I had who spanked were lazy. They've given up. It's far easier to spank than to go through any other measure of discipline. And, you know that.

I read upthread you are doing timeouts. Why aren't those working? Why are you having to resort to spanking instead of timeouts? 2-3 year olds in particular are easy to put in time out.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

143. As I said:

If all you do is spank and you think that will in and of itself fix the problem then ys you are wrong..

As to timeouts: Sometimes they work and sometimes they dont. Usually they do, I keep a playpen set up in our spare room for the nights she really gets out of hand and keeps her sister up, after 15 minutes she is usually ready to at least use an inside voice while playing.

The spanking was only done because I kept catching her climbing up on tables, counters, and other places in the middle of the night... Gates did not work, nor would any kid of door (hell the playpen that works now was even ineffective as she is physically able to climb out). Timeouts, removing privileges, many things were tried until finally I sat her down and told her that she was putting herself in danger and did not even know it, I spanked her (like I said lightly over pullups). She cried and afterwards we talked about it and this time she was listening... I have not had to spank her since..

Im not 'a spanker' Its the last form of discipline I would choose to use but there are times that its the only way to get her to listen. Thankfully as she is getting older the need seems to be completely disappearing.

[LostinVA]

105. Cold, calculated hitting of a toddler

:puke:

[LostinVA]

110. Jo Jo says that, too

I trust you and Supernanny (who has a whole raft of Childhood Development people behind her). I don't get the physical discipline thing at all.

[Midlodemocrat]

118. I don't either. I have yet to see it work.

If it did work, the child would be spanked once and then the threat of a spanking would be enough to change the behavior. What I've seen if parents who spank more and more as the child reacts out of defiance.

[Feron]

133. I disagree.

Timeouts never worked when I was a kid. Different strategies work for different children. Timeouts I couldn't have cared less about because I'd sit there and daydream.

However if my mom or dad got a certain tone in their voice, I knew that if I didn't stop a spanking would come. I probably only got spanked a grand total of 5-7 times during my childhood (open-handed swats on my clothed butt).

My parents never spanked out of anger or frustration and there was a logical progression of consequences. Spanking was always the last resort discipline method. I don't see any problem with this and I certainly don't fear my parents.

I don't think that spanking should be a first resort discipline method or spanking in anger or frustration. And I certainly don't think that spanking a dog is okay. Disciplining an animal is different than disciplining a human because of obvious situational, language, and cognitive differences.

[Midlodemocrat]

140. There are other forms of punishment besides time out.

Time out didn't work with my son, either. But, we never resorted to hitting him.

[L0oniX]

253. It's also against the law in most places ...someone needs to call HRS on this person ....

who I have on ignore.

[L0oniX]

254. Where are the mods ...this thread needs cleaning up.

[Triana]

212. So LostinVA - you believe physical pain is worse than emotional pain?

Yelling at, degrading, and invalidating a child, depriving them of food, etc. is OK as forms of discipline, but a well-explained and rare spanking isn't?

Frankly I think kids who are not spanked when necessary (and ONLY when necessary and sometimes it IS necessary) are spoiled. And I think it's kind of low of you to accuse the man of not loving his kids because he spanks them when they need it (rarely). You know it probably hurt HIM more than his girl to do that.

When my dad had to spank me he TOLD me it hurt him worse than it hurt me. I believe it did.

IMO, the 'easy way out' is just verbally and emotionally abusing the kid all the time, depriving them of food, dessert, privileges or whatever, and thinking that is somehow 'better' than spanking their butts when they need it.

"Inflicting physical pain on someone weaker" - oh sheesh. you presume that Mr. Father is some sort of psychopathic abuser when he's a very reasonable parent.

What I remember about being spanked was not any pain so much as being put in my place and being let know who was the parent and who was the child - I learned respect - and sometimes for a child under 7 - that's what it takes for them to get that. They're not adults and therefore sometimes adult reasoning doesn't work.

"reasonable people don't respond to physical punishment" - maybe not, but little kids do sometimes - they are not 'reasonable people' - they're still very young and narcissistic (normal for that age) - and sometimes a well-placed, well-deserved and well-explained smack on the butt is enough to let them know you're serious when you as a parent, ask them to do or not do something - and they need to be reminded that they are to respect their parents and mind them. Particularly when all other methods have failed.

You are really villanizing him when he's obviously a very reasonable parent.

I think spankings are sometimes warranted

[Bluebear]

49. You should never have a dog, because you would abuse it. You DON'T HIT ANIMALS.

'like a 2yo sometimes they will not take to any other form of discipline.' - - Malarkey.

I am glad I am not one of your "little angels".

And it's "dessert".

=====

In no uncertain terms should hitting your dog be considered appropriate punishment - it is certainly abuse. But I still see people choosing to hit their dogs, be it a slap on the nose or on the rump. Hitting is a reaction of frustration from us. There is nothing in the natural canine vocabulary of social gestures and postures that mimics slapping. There is one behavior that fearful dogs display that could be interpreted as an assault like hitting. That is when a dog lashes out at another dog in fear. The intention is to cause quick pain and then vacate the area in fear of retribution. When we hit a dog we can assume that is how they interpret that action. We are afraid of them and are lashing out. As a result we send a clear message that we are unpredictable and therefore not capable of being a good pack leaders as true pack leaders are confident and predictable.

I personally am a very firm believer in discipline rather than punishment. As I said earlier the boundaries that you set for your dog should be consistent and disciplined. What was off limits yesterday is off limits today and tomorrow. And what was allowed yesterday is allowed today and tomorrow. When a dog has this disciplined, consistent order from all members of its pack, it rarely ever misbehaves and there is really never a need for punishment. By showing this level of disciplined order your dog also assumes that you are a competent leader of its pack and therefore has no need to challenge that position. When we are inconsistent with the boundaries that our dog is to live within is when our dog assumes we are incompetent of a leadership position and begins a to challenge it through inappropriate displays of behavior.

Dogs are not creatures that live within the shadow of punishment. Meaning they don't go slinking around waiting for an opportunity to be bad and hoping that they don't get caught, like criminals. They are creatures that live and thrive within the disciplined boundaries of order and structure and that is when they are truly happy and willing to please us with good behavior.

http://www.worldclassgsd.com/behavior_tips/hitting_your_dog.htm

[LeftyMom]

179. I can't believe you're allowed to defend the abuse of animals and children on DU.

You shouldn't have either if you can't manage them non-violently.

[flvegan]

186. That's animal abuse, moron.

You DO realize that a dog wouldn't understand getting hit, right? Of course.

I'm glad you don't have a dog, or any other pet. You're not a fit person to have one.

[stanwyck]

73. I love you. I hit you.

and you wonder why there are screwed up adults? Consider how much bigger and stronger you are than your child. And you use force against her. Use all the rationalizations you want. You're hitting a child.

[LostinVA]

75. A toddler no less

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

103. A toddler is far better than an older kid

An older kid is more open to reason and understanding than a two year old..

[LostinVA]

107. And no chance of hitting you back

Pathetic.

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

144. "Again your a trite asshat" -- Nice personal attack

Did I hit a nerve?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

150. Well lets see

You have, without knowing me, attempted to pigeon hole me into certain religions and as a parent... Yes you hit a nerve... Are you proud?

[Midlodemocrat]

112. You should NEVER hit a two year old!!!!!

Ever, ever, ever!!!!! She's a baby for cryin' out loud. You're hitting her because you can't get her to do what you want her to do when you want her to do it!!!

Try talking to her. Try telling her in a firm voice what you want her to do. If she doesn't do it, put her in time out. Kids HATE time out.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

128. Youre under the assumption

Like everyone else here that I did not first take other measures..

[Midlodemocrat]

130. Sorry. There is no reason to ever hit a two year old.

She's a baby for cryin' out loud. You said yourself she's in pullups!!!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

151. IN pullups and a light pat on the bum..

Causes her no physical pain..

[NeedleCast]

171. I don't hate time outs...

Time out was a completely ineffective punishment for me as a child because I am very good at self-entertaining. I remember my mom telling me "we could never send you to your room, because you'd just shrug and go...I don't even think you realized we were trying to punish you."

[mondo joe]

224. Time out's not supposed to punish.

That's not the point.

[Bluebear]

92. But he calls them "angels" afterwards, so it's OK.

:puke:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

102. Do you think:

(a) I hit my kid hard?
(b) Do you think when you tell a kid I love you but you cant watch that show because its bedtime they get that anymore than a spanking?

[Midlodemocrat]

108. Wait. Are you saying that you can't get your child to obey you

without spanking her? Dude, you're in trouble. Your child should obey because you are in charge. You shouldn't be negotiating with a two year old. You say to said two year old. "Sweetie, it's time for bed. We're going to read a story and then you're going to go to sleep"

Watch Super Nanny. She gets the worst of the worst to obey without laying a finger on them.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

153. No and if youre seemy other post here

I have not spanked her in 6 months and she obeys me fine, Ive spanked her less than five times in her life (and that counts slapping her hand when she reached for a knife)...

[riderinthestorm]

159. Eek! She's been spanked 5 times and she's only two years old??!!

I would respectfully suggest that you really need some parent/child bonding time or something. Your relationship with your daughter needs some serious TLC if you have had to resort to that kind of discipline, this many times, at this young age.

My kids have had/do have such a great respectful, loving relationship with their father, me, other family etc. (until they were teens which is it's own story as anyone who has parented a teen will tell you) that spanking just wasn't any part of the discipline. There are so, so many other ways to correct your children that you just don't need spanking.

And when their babies??!! Wowza.

[Midlodemocrat]

183. Why not just move the knife?

Seriously. I am not getting your 'parenting style' at all. It seems to me that you have been taking the easy way out. And, five times and the child is two?

Not right, dude. Not right at all.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

221. Of course I moved the knife but there was the immeadiate threat of her

grabbing the blade of a shun..

[flygal]

247. It is easy to say it's not right

but when you're in the situation and are familiar with your children - there have been times when a slap on the wrist GETS their attention FAR more than a timeout would. I know many wonderful loving parents who have also admitted to using the wrist slap to drive a point home.

It's just like if they run into the street you would PULL on their arm and not just raise your voice - although I'm afraid many here would consider a raised voice / shout child abuse as well.

My youngest does NOT listen well - I've tried everything - but a few times I have had to slap a wrist when she does something dangerous (stuck metal into an outlet) and she does cry and it registers much more seriously to her.

I feel it's a big difference using the slap in dangerous situations to get attention vs. a spanking from bad behaviour. My youngest is now 3 and she understands much better now and just a serious tone to my voice gets the message accross. But at 1-3 it was not so easy.

So - I guess we can't all parent up to the highest standards - we do our best - love our children and only want them to be safe. I hate the idea that we're all evil. I sure wish I could as perfect as so many I've been reading about on this thread.

[stanwyck]

177. Think

about what you're doing. You're telling your child I have no more resources as an adult than physical strength to use. That's all. Brute force. I take my hand and cause you pain in order to control your behavior. You are so lost.

[hunter]

174. Our kids just slept with us. There wasn't a crib that could hold them.

Little monkeys they were. If we'd spanked 'em they'd probably have bit back.

They've grown up to be straight A students, friendly, and not too horrible so far as teenagers go.

[smoogatz]

205. I think it's probably true that even occasional spanking fucks kids up.

Being spanked presents kids with a pretty potent mix of submission, eroticism and pain. I think it's pretty common for kids who are regularly spanked to have trouble sorting all that stuff out, well into adulthood.

[pnwmom]

239. It makes sense to me that this could damage children.

No child should be having potentially sexual experiences with any adult -- and this goes for parents, too.

[Midlodemocrat]

45. Every sane person should hate spanking.

It accomplishes nothing. It doesn't work, it's abusive and it's humiliating. And, the old adage "I was spanked and I turned out okay" doesn't cut it.

Spanking is abusive. Period.

[LostinVA]

74. But Midlo, it's okay if it's not done with violence in the heart

:puke:

[Midlodemocrat]

79. Actually, that's the worst kind and does the most damage.

A child can more easily forgive a parent for 'losing it' and hitting than they can if the parent is calm and calculated. Then they just see it for what it is....abuse.

[LostinVA]

86. I agree 100%

Losing it is much easier to deal with than cold, calculation.

[Midlodemocrat]

90. I'm always amazed by parents who say they never hit in anger.

Gah. So you hit when YOU'RE calm and rational and the kid is friggin' terrified? And, then turn around and say you love them? :scared:

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

222. I have a spouse who grew up with parents that

'occasionally lost it' and I grew up with parents who spanked in the same manner I do...

Trust me not knowing if this is the moment your parents are going to lsoe it is far worse for a kid, it hurt my wife even into adulthood.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

78. It most certainly odes accomplish something

As I said it was the only thing to get my Daughter to stay in bed at night given she was not tall enough to reach into untold dangerous territory It most certainly did help.

Words can be abusive, actions can be abusive and yes spanking can be abusive but the abuse is in the intent not the action.

[Midlodemocrat]

85. No, it doesn't. If it truly accomplished something you'd only have to do it once.

All your daughter learned from that was to do what she was told to avoid getting hit. My own kids stayed in their beds without us hitting them. It's all in how you pose it.

Hitting is wrong in every conceivable way. If you hit an adult the way you hit your daughter, you'd be in jail. And, rightly so.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

154. In terms of getting her to stay in her room at night..

I only had to do it once...

[mondo joe]

225. That's really sickening. Sorry to have to say so, but it is.

[Lance_Boyle]

88. you are entitled to that opinion, of course.

But please recognize that other perfectly valid opinions exist that contradict yours. Your assertion that "spanking is abusive, period" is no more authoritative that my opinion that "not all spanking is abusive." You go your way and I'll go mine, not you go your way and I'll chase after you accusing you of criminal conduct because we have different opinions.

[Midlodemocrat]

97. Except for one small detail.

I'm a psych professional. PhD in clinical psychology with a specialization in children and adolescents. I'm not pulling this out of my ass. I'm stating this based on years of research and client contact. Hitting a child is abusive. No ifs, ands or buts.

There is no way anyone could ever justify hitting a child to me. I've seen first hand how destructive spanking can be to the parent/child relationship.

[Lance_Boyle]

241. so you're entitled to your *professional opinion*

Your argument from authority does not make fact of your opinion, and it's dishonest to pretend that it does. Plenty of other professional opinions contradict yours.

[LostinVA]

242. Dobson sure is the kind of professional you want on your side

:eyes:

[Midlodemocrat]

245. Actually, no they don't. Unless you're a big believer in the

Ferber or Baby Whisperer movement. Which have all been thoroughly discredited by professionals and are only still used by the laziest of parents.

[Lance_Boyle]

249. your argument from authority still fails to make your opinion fact

belabor the point as you wish, it will not make you right or me wrong. Such is the nature of opinions, even dodgy "professional" internet ones. Militancy and argumentation do not change that.

So once again, you go your way and I'll go mine. Odds are that our offspring, spanked and unspanked, will grow up fine. :hi:

[AlCzervik]

120. correct, what does a child learn from being spanked---Mom and or Dad are ineffective

communicators and have poor impulse control.

My daughter is 13, she has never once been hit by me or my husband.

[Midlodemocrat]

131. Yup. Exactly.

And, a child has no way of knowing when they've 'outgrown' the spankings. That fear continues for a long time after the spankings have stopped.

[AlCzervik]

135. i lurvs you.

:hi: :loveya:

[Midlodemocrat]

141. I lurves YOU!!!!

:loveya:

This is a hot button for me. Spanking is so unnecessary. There are so many other ways to teach your child than spanking. Ugh.

[laundry_queen]

160. As someone who was spanked

and still feels distant from my father because of it, I totally agree with this - and everything else you've said in this thread. I've never spanked any of my 4 children and have never had discipline problems with them. It takes imagination, ingenuity, supervision, time and patience to discipline without spanking. Spanking may quickly correct the behavior short term, but it results in long term damage. There are SO many other ways to discipline, and so many studies showing that spanking at best, doesn't work and at worst, causes psychological harm, why would one even try to justify using it?

[riderinthestorm]

170. Maybe they WANT their children to grow up and practice risky, deviant sex?

(just kidding) :evilgrin: I have to admit, I think the author of the study is a prude. His definitions of deviant sex are pretty standard fun for most couples as far as I can tell...

My father also spanked, hard and often, and while he had other problems that are much "larger" than spanking us and that were much more destructive, it was indicative in hindsight of his feelings of lack of control over things.

Sorry about the state of affairs with your dad. I can relate.... :hug:

[unpossibles]

14. I agree 100%

and actually, as someone who enjoys the word "deviant" I wish they would use something else for the criminal acts, such as rape. Rape is not deviant, it is a crime.

[LostinVA]

21. Yep -- I use "deviant" is a good way

I object to the researcher using deviant as a bad way, and to describe criminal acts. She must have a pretty boring sex life, though.

[unpossibles]

23. nothing a good spanking wouldn't fix

:O

Sorry. that was meant to be a joke - hopefully obviously.

[LostinVA]

25. Or a good flogging

[enid602]

16. Spanking Raises Chances of Risky, Deviant Sexual Behavior. . .

And deviant sexual behaviour raises chance of spanking!

[CRF450]

161. self delete

[CRF450]

163. Delete

[dysfunctional press]

17. i guess i "beat" the odds, then...

my parents used to beat the shit out of me, with whatever was handy- hands, belt, hairbrush, clotheshanger, etc...it only stopped when i got big enough to hit back- HARD!

but i don't have any sexual deviancies- that i know of(not that there's anything wrong with it), and i've NEVER laid an angry finger on my wife of 17 years.

[aikoaiko]

34. I wonder if they are simply seeing children who break rules, break rules later in life.

:shrug: I'll have to wait for the articles.

[hootinholler]

36. Did someone leave the grail shaped lantern on?

There will have to be a spanking then.

-Hoot

[mondo joe]

37. I'm 100% opposed to spanking but this study is BS, conflating dissimilar

things, apparently in service to an agenda.

[MindPilot]

38. Probably increases the chances of a Mohawk as well.

Risky, deviant hairstyles are strongly linked to spanking, piercing and tattoos.

[TexasObserver]

39. Oh, behave!!

Madonna.

1990.

"Spank me!"


Disclaimer: I'm opposed to all corporal punishment of children.

[guitar man]

42. hogwash!!

I was spanked all the time as a child and I'm not....sexually....deviant?

am I?? :freak:

what exactly is considered "deviant" again ??? :shrug: :evilgrin:







:rofl:

[lonestarnot]

44. What bullshit.

[MrCoffee]

52. Oh please. The Minnesota Spankological Protocol would suggest otherwise

[geardaddy]

57. Nice Simpsons reference.

doodly.


Edited to add this:

[stanwyck]

60. I agree with Sarah Silverman

the only thing getting spanked as a child acomplishes is wanting to get spanked during sex when adult.

[RoadRage]

81. and.. you fu*ked Matt Damon too?? LUCKY! :) NT

[stanwyck]

176. Only in my dreams, Rage. Only in my dreams. NT

[RoadRage]

80. I was never spanked, and i'm a HUGE deviant....

Did I just say that out loud? }(

[pleah]

87. What a load of BS!

[Iggo]

100. It also teaches children....

...to sit the eff down.

[Midlodemocrat]

185. Hope you're either kidding, or don't have kids.

Because that's just disgusting.

[Iggo]

188. They're very happy...

...and well behaved, I might add...lol.

[leftofthedial]

101. and that's just during foeplay!

buh dum dum pssshhhht.

thanks. I'll be here all week. try the veal.

[ProgressiveFool]

123. Little did my grandmother know, when she washed out my mouth with soap once... /nt

[CRF450]

165. What a load of poo. My parents whooped the shit out of my ass when I was little

Cause I was real trouble maker in the kid days, and I know damn well I deserved those spankings. Then somehow I settled down around the end of middle school. Since then, its extremely rare for me to get in trouble anymore.

[Midlodemocrat]

184. And, there's a good chance if they hadn't

'whooped the shit out your ass' you would have settled down long before middle school. There's no defending it. And, you state that it's extremely rare for you to get in trouble? How old are you? 15?

[CRF450]

194. I'm 21

Had they not disciplined me they way they did, I would have still cause a bit of trouble. My parents tried grounding me, taking away the playstation, the tv privledges, all that stuff without a spanking for a while. Yet I still found something to do to get in trouble, then they went back to spanking

When I got around 11 or 12 years old, they didn't hurt as much anymore, but it was embarrassing and humiliating as hell. It was around that time that I started getting in trouble less and less because I didn't like going through that humiliation again, and I starting gaining some common sense to act properly and not disrespect others. Hell, the last major fist fight I was in was almost 8 years ago in 8th grade.

Now I'm starting to live on my own, I have my own house, two vehicles, dirtbike, a bunch of other stuff I'v blown alot of money on before I bought the house. I get along with anybody, no matter what race, what they look like, political affiliation etc etc...

I'm livin a great life now, I dont have much to complain about my childhood. Anything else you want to say that you think you know about me?

[Midlodemocrat]

198. "Since then, its extremely rare for me to get in trouble anymore"

Sorry. At 21, it shouldn't be happening at all.

[CRF450]

200. The only "little" trouble I get in are accidental mistakes

And things of that nature in the workplace. Something I might forget to do or whatever, then a fuss out by the boss. Sure it'll make me feel like shit, but I learn that mistake and improve my work.

Even the wisest of adults are not perfect you know.

[readmoreoften]

207. You talk about yourself as if you were a naughty child. It's pretty creepy, bro.

You're not having "accidents" or "oopsies" still. You're a grown man. Why are you grateful for humiliation (from your boss or others) to improve your work? Most adults are self-motivated to do the best they can, when their boss treats them like a child they are rightfully insulted. It sounds like you still want someone to control you. Adulthood is self-control. It's not about perfection. It's about making mistakes and correcting them yourself.

Did you ever think that maybe your so-called uncontrollably naughty behavior was just normal behavior or inquisitiveness that your parents refused to deal with?

If you were tearing the drapes and setting the dog on fire, I understand the need for drastic behavior. But if a kid is just energetic and inquisitive and questioning authority, then spanking is a cowards tool. And it tends to make kids more antsy in the long run.

[CRF450]

217. You have no idea how crazy I was back in the day.

I almost thrived on action. For one thing, my parents could never always keep me in check. While dad was gone to work, mom would sleep for most of the day. But she was an extremly unhealthy person so not alot of fault could go to her. Heavy smoker, diabetic, and very overwieght, though yes, her bad health was completely her fault. She hardly had the ability to keep up with what I was doing (She died in 04 BTW just to let you know). I always rode my bicycle around the neighborhood to find something to do or someone to hang out with. Thankfully, we lived out in the country where most of the people knew one another. In elementary school, I always got into fist fights, rarely 3 days could go by without me getting into a fight.

Well thats a fraction of my life being told. No I dont want someone to control me, that what I like about my summer job cleaning pools/hot tubs. I'm just out their by myself without a boss breathing over my neck constantly, all I have to worry about is getting the job done, and do it well so the people renting the cottages are happy with a clean pool. The boss man just calls my cellphone about every other work day. Wanting to be independent of myself is also the reason I moved out of my dads house.

"Did you ever think that maybe your so-called uncontrollably naughty behavior was just normal behavior or inquisitiveness that your parents refused to deal with?"

The majority of it, yeah. Yet their was ALOT of the kid stuff I did that went a bit extreme.

"You're a grown man. Why are you grateful for humiliation (from your boss or others) to improve your work?"

Keeps me from making that same mistake again doesn't it?

[mondo joe]

223. This might sound harsh, but I think you just described yourself as

a neglected kid - not one who deserved to be hit.

Spanking is a shortcut for people who won't or can't take care of kids properly. In your case it sounds like your mom couldn't do it because of health problems. That doesn't mean you - or anyone else - deserves to be hit.

[LostinVA]

228. You need therapy if you're okay with being humiliated by your boss

Either that or a dom. Probably therapy, though.

[CRF450]

232. Why would I need therapy if I'm doing just fine, and making it on my own?

I dont take the humiliation on a personal level, more like "damn, that was stupid, I wont do that again". I dont see a problem here.

[gkhouston]

167. spanking was common when I was a kid -- so why was high school so boring?

Did all the deviants go to some other school? :shrug:

[Greyskye]

168. someone forgot their SAFE WORD

:spank:

[StrongBad]

173. Ahem. In response to my initial statement of purpose for this thread

Mission Accomplished

:evilgrin:

[LostinVA]

175. I said the same thing to Haruka when I got home from work today

[Mezzo]

197. Finally! An answer to the "Catholic School Girl" Theory...

I was wondering about that. ;)

[readmoreoften]

206. Well, the butt *is* connected to the genitals.

What kills me are the pro-spank advocates who suggest front-faced spanking so you can make "eye contact". In other words, the kid is on his/her back, you pull their legs over their heads and spank them while staring them in the eyes. Brilliant, huh? :eyes:

[pnwmom]

231. The voice of reason. Thank you. n/t

[ProgressiveFool]

229. Well, that pretty much explains the Republican party... who knew? /nt

[Ordr]

234. Hmm...

Well that certainly explains some of my...proclivities.
*cough*

[Echo In Light]

237. I wasn't spanked, and my wife and I don't spank our daughter. Spanking is creepy

[pnwmom]

240. This seems so obvious -- but the research was needed, because the

naysayers will resist. Spanking a child is the quick, lazy way of discipline, and that's why so many parents take that route.

[noonwitch]

244. The Marquis deSade was raised by a sadistic uncle/priest

who physically abused him, and probably sexually abused him. The physical abuse was reportedly severe-whippings, mostly.

He grew up to believe that as a member of the french nobility, he had the right to physically and sexually abuse women. The fact that he had been a prisoner in the Bastille prevented him from losing his head during the french revolution-his wife and mother-in-law had him put there via a letter de cachet (like the doctor in Dickens' tale). Never mind the fact that in his case, he really did need to be locked up for the protection of society.

[DCKit]

248. Jeebus, them Republics must beat the CRAP outta their kids.

I can't wait for Vitter's biography. I did quite get that whole dirty diaper thing, but I'd like to hear his perspective.

[Quantess]

258. Diaper Dave Vitter,

that's a whole 'nother shitty story.

Realistically, his mom only congratulated baby Dave when he made poo-poo or pee-pee in his diapers, and after potty training, he got ignored. For whatever reason.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

250. Spanking and abuse produce little obedient Nazis.

Read "The Drama of the Gifted Child" and other works by Alice Miller.

She explains how extreme abuse, physical and mental and verbal, produces good little authoritarian Germans.


Verbal and emotional abuse are just as bad as physical abuse.

My mother was a jailer. She didn't want me to go outside and play with the other kids. She wanted to keep us imprisoned in suburbia. She wouldn't even let me join the Girl Scouts. In every other situation with kids I got picked on.

She would run down the sidewalk screaming like a banshee with a bamboo switch in her hand. And we kids would hide on the side of a house and laugh at her.

[Quantess]

257. That's incredible.

Is that from the book?
However, every "gifted" child has overcome obstacles of some sort. Even if you're now a "gifted" adult with an obsolete Masters degree in a subject that was once relevant to you, but is of no use to you anymore.

[backscatter712]

251. Well, that explains David Vitter, Larry Craig, Mark Foley, etc... n/t

[Quantess]

256. Maybe spanking is the only attention some kids ever get.

They learn to like it....:o