Soon it may be possible to have religious education tax deductible

[AngryAmish]

--- This case has everything, even Scientology and secret government deals ---

"A Jewish couple's bid to take a tax deduction they say the Internal Revenue Service reserves only for members of the Church of Scientology is getting a friendly reception from a federal appeals court, increasing the possibility of a ruling that could create a tax break for taxpayers of many religions who pay tuition to religious schools.

During arguments on the case this week, three judges who ride the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals expressed deep skepticism of the Orsa's position that the way the agency treats Scientologists is irrelevant to the deductions the Orthodox Jews, Michael and Marla Sklar, took for part of their children's day school tuition and for after-school classes in Jewish law.

"The view of the IRS is it can unconstitutionally violate the Constitution by establishing religion, by treating one religion more favorably than other religions in terms of what is allowed as deductions, and there can never be any judicial review of that?" Judge Kim Wardlaw asked at the court session Monday in Pasadena, Calif."

So, how would you feel if religious education was tax deductible? It would make my child's education a lot cheaper.

[ixion]

1. The flies in the face of the separation of Church and State

if you want to send your kid to a religious school, that's fine, but you shouldn't expect a tax cut for it.

[AngryAmish]

3. I don't expect a tax cut

But if the government is giving one religion a tax deduction then all religions shoudl get a tax deduction.

The public schools in Chicago are terrible and private school is expensive, so a tax cut would be nice.

[BOSSHOG]

5. Or

the government should stop giving deductions to that one church

[ixion]

6. well, I agree with you there... no religion should be given a tax cut

if you do it for one, you should do it for all of them, and vice versa.

[vi5]

7. No religion should get it....

Not Scientology, not Judaism, not Christianity, none of them. I don't know why Scientology gets it but they shouldn't.

If people choose to not send their kids to public schools that is their right. But they shouldn't get credit for it any more than someone should get a tax credit for not driving on US highways or using tolls or never having called the police or needing the National Guard or not having kids in school.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

16. There is an argument for it

After all some people who home school in Western NY pay 3K dollars in school taxes and get nothing in return while at the same time educating their own kids who will later pay into the system the same argument hold up for those who send their kids to private schools..

[Nevernose]

40. They get PLENTY for it

It's not homeschooling that I'm against so much as it is the argument that people w/o kids in public schools shouldn't have to pay. Soemtimes we just have to own up and do what benefits as many as we can as best we can.

How about the fact that truants account for 60% of daytime burglaries?
Do you want well-educated employees?
Do you want a well-educated citizenry
Do you want people in the same nation to have similar cultural backgrounds?
Do you want more charity cases and drug/alcohol addicts?
Do you want more people in housing projects?
Do you want more people with college degrees?
Do you want to pay more for prisons, police, courts, etc.?

Public education might be a tax which we don't all use, but is a tax from which we all benefit. For instance, I might not use a road on which I paid taxes for, but the funding of that road enabled my coworkers to get to work and the widgets we buy to arrive that much cheaper, which benefits us indirectly and in the long run. Eisenhower's interstates, i.e..

[BOSSHOG]

2. How would you feel about people without children

not having to pay taxes earmarked for public schools?

Why does religious education cost anything more then tithing?

[Adsos Letter]

8. Our church does subsidize tuition for our members...

but it STILL costs $650 per month (more for non-members)

I am against tax-breaks for parochial schools...but it should be applied even-handedly.

Gotta' keep church/state seperate...and regain the degree of separation we have lost under this administration.

[BOSSHOG]

12. We do not have children

and I have no problem paying taxes to support the schools. But I recently went to a school board meeting which was deciding expenditures. A couple of neighbors (holier then thou types) approached me and asked why I was there since I didn't have kids. I told them thats right but my wife and I do pay taxes, my tax money is not spent on any kids of mine and since I don't have kids they are not a spender of school system funds. Pissed me off royally.

[Adsos Letter]

15. And you were right to be pissed...

it's about the common oversight of how well our taxes get utilized. We have church members who no longer have kids in the school (or never have) but they show up at board meetings, partly out of concern for how that portion of tithe which is returned to our schools from the General Conference gets used.

It's the fiscally responsible thing to do...as well as good citizenship.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

19. Good for you

As a parent of two I would welcome you at any bidget meeting which involves a tax both you and I pay :)

[Gormy Cuss]

43. That disconnect really annoys me.

If anything, taxpayers without children in the local school are a needed voice at school board meetings to give some balance to parents making appeals based on their own self interests. The community is paying for that new sports stadium or library, and the community should be heard.

[BOSSHOG]

46. You nailed it Gormy

I could go on but I won't. I'll just continue paying my taxes and pissing off as many prima donna parents as I can who choose not to accept my proposal for rerouting school busses to save money.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

18. Couple of points..

1) Its not so because there kids are not in public school but because they are taking on the extra expense of educating them in another manner. These kids will work and pay into the same system as kids who were educated in public school and the people without children will *hopefully* have SS and other programs available in their old age paid for by the children of others.

2) Tithing is not about a church starting a school its about running the church, church planting, and funding other ministries. Many Catholic churches do give cheaper tuition to members of the church in good standing (not necessarily tithing but who do throw an envelope in the basket) but thats not the practice among protestant churches.

3) Many *many* people dont tithe or even come close. The average person at best throws a 20 in the basket which would be a tithe if they were making 10K dollars a year or less..

[sinkingfeeling]

So, isn't it at the parents' option that their 'taking on the extra expense of educating them'? Why

should other taxpayers support a personal decision?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

22. Please

we do that all the time, were talking about socialized medicine which will treat smokers and drunks should taxpayers support their decision? what about accident victims? not my fault you were cheap and bought an unsafe car...

I dont think they should get all their money back but some is not unreasonable..

[sinkingfeeling]

26. I sent my son to 6 years of private, secular school in the 1970's and 80's. I paid for the tuition

because the schools offered things that the public school did not. One, Ravenscroft, in Raleigh, NC costed something like $3K a year back then. Of course in that time frame, no one could deduct child care expenses either.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

29. Nobody here is saying

that the school should be paid for but a tax credit (similar to the one for daycare) might be in order..

[Igel]

35. Some of us still can't deduct child care expenses.

A few years ago I was working full time, but was self-employed.

Had I been "on the payroll", child care expenses would have been tax deductible. As it was, they weren't because I wasn't on somebody else's payroll.

[vi5]

4. No stinkin' way...

Someone wants to send their kid to religious schools then they should have every right to. But it shouldn't be a tax credit or deduction or any of it. It shouldn't be for scientology and it shouldn't be for any religion.

[sinkingfeeling]

9. I guess I'd be claiming a deduction for secular education.

[Warren Stupidity]

11. 'xactly

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

21. I think thats legit

Were you to send your kids to a private secular school you should also be entitled to some for of relief..

[lonestarnot]

37. Guess we could all take a couple of religion classes and deduct

everybody's tution :evilgrin: I smell a M.

[TahitiNut]

10. There's a school of thought (so to speak) that private education expenses should be deductible ...

... since such expenses offset public education expenses. (Never mind the fact that children are already exemptions.) There are *some* who argue that any private expenditures for anything that's a public service should be deductible.

Fine. Then guns should be tax deductible since they offset police and military expenses ... and so should fire extinguishers.

:evilgrin:


:hide:

[sinkingfeeling]

13. Then why not expand on that 'school of thought'? Let's have deductions for private cars because

public transportation doesn't exist where I live. How about I take a big deduction for creating a 'park-like' setting on my 2 acres of property?

[AngryAmish]

14. Can I picnic at your park?

[sinkingfeeling]

17. Sure, but watch out for doggie do....I don't have any workers to clean it up.

[AngryAmish]

24. Why not you cheap-o?

And why haven't you installed a water slide?

[sinkingfeeling]

25. I will when I get my tax deductions for the improvements.

[elehhhhna]

20. Oh please. Church school tuition is deducted as charity -- in the form of tithes

It's a racket.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

23. Many people send their kids to a private school not based in

their church...

[elehhhhna]

27. they do?1!!

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

28. Sure,

Many churches don't have schools attached to them thats sort of a Catholic/Lutheran thing. Some AOG churches have schools but few others..

For instance my church has 3K members (pretty big but not 'MEGA') but no school affiliated to it. The pastor send his kids to public school and many member home-school but nothing of the church funds go to any school..

[elehhhhna]

30. I know, silly. Let's make university tuition fully deductable and go from there?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

31. Ummm....

http://www.nasfaa.org/AnnualPubs/TaxBenefitsGuide.html

"The Tuition and Fees Tax Deduction can reduce taxable income by as much as $4,000 in 2007. This deduction is taken as an adjustment to income, which means you can claim this deduction even if they do not itemize deductions on Schedule A of Form 1040. This deduction may benefit taxpayers who do not qualify for either the Hope or Lifetime Learning Education Tax Credits."

How about we split the difference and say that private school tuition for middle and high school is only deductible up to 2K..

[elehhhhna]

32. 4K? Big whoop.

& nope, not budging on PS tuition.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

33. So lets get rid of it at the university level as well

Also daycare deductions...

[elehhhhna]

36. how about we cap PS deducts at the same level as daycare and

expand tax deductions for university education?

m'kay?

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

38. Sure now we just have to convince the bunch of loser in dc to go for it..

[elehhhhna]

41. We just compromised and solved it. Maybe we should run for Congress.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

44. Its our ability to compromise and solve real problems...

That would preclude you or I for winning national office ;)

[Sgent]

34. There are a couple of issues here

In some ways, many people (esp Christians) already get tax deductions for religious education. Sunday schools, cathecism classes, and the like are fully funded by tax deductible donations given to the church.

In most synagogues -- similar to Scientology where they pay for religious training, in most cases basic religious education such as Hebrew school, studying for bar/bat mitzvah, is not free, and requires tuition payments above and beyond membership fees or dues.

In my opinion if we are going to allow tax deductible donations and tithes to Christian churches to perform similar activities, then participants of other religions should enjoy the same privilege.

That being said, there is a divide between religious education and more general education. If you attend a Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, or Muslim sponsored school in which the main purpose is secular -- not religious education, then that should be subject to the same rules that apply to private secular schools -- which under today's tax laws means no deduction.

[AP]

39. I hope everyone reads the link. The real story here is that the IRS settled a long-standing dispute

with Scientologists by giving them some kind of tax break on fees they pay for religious training. The problem is that the settlement was confidential. The Wall St Journal reported on it, which gave the Sklars the idea to try to deduct their religious school tuition. The government lawyer said that their deductions are different from the Scientologists'. The judges said that unless the IRS shares the terms of the settlement, nobody really knows if they're different, so they ruled in favor of the Sklars.

The court is basically punishing the IRS for entering into confidential settlements, and they're also saying that if any details leak out about the settlements, than the courts will hold the IRS to those leaked details as if they were legal precedent until the IRS proves that the leaked information is not accurate (eg, by producing the confidential settlements).

To me, the lesson is that the government shouldn't be entering into confidential settlements on issues like this. They should all be reported, and should be precedent.

[Gormy Cuss]

42. Yes. I'm glad the Jewish couple filed the suit and brought some daylight onto this IRS deal

Scientologists can deduct 80% of the "spiritual training" fees they pay? What a sweet deal.

on edit: I hope that some tax accountant/lawyer here will come along and explain how this makes any sense in terms of other tax code provisions.

[AP]

45. I think continuing ed is deductible up to 1K or 2K (subject to other limitations)

and you can save money without paying tax on the interest if you spend it on qualifying educational costs for your kids.

So there are some tax benefits you can get for money spent on education...