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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 10:21 PM
Original message
Chomsky: the will of the People regarding Iran IS irrelevant to the Oil Gang
Edited on Fri Feb-23-07 10:49 PM by patrice
Gangs have only one motive, that is to control territory that is necessary to the revenues of others. Control is everything, so they have no interest in complying with the will of the people. The gang in power in Washington ABSOLUTELY CANNOT tolerate a free and independent Iraq, so it must consider a risky strategy in which the Khuzestan/oil region of Iran may be the trigger.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=12169

snips:

To say that the United States has pursued diplomacy with North Korea is a little bit misleading... They made a very substantial agreement in September 2005 in which North Korea agreed to eliminate its enrichment programs and nuclear development completely. In return the United States agreed to terminate the threats of attack and to begin moving towards the planning for the provision of a light water reactor, which had been promised under the framework agreement. But the Bush administration instantly undermined it.

That one is now coming back, just in the last few days....

That's much less significant for the United States than Iran. The Iranian issue I don't think has much to do with nuclear weapons frankly. Nobody is saying Iran should have nuclear weapons –nor should anybody else. But the point in the Middle East, as distinct from North Korea, is that this is center of the world's energy resources....

That's been an axiom of U.S. foreign policy, that it must control Middle East energy resources. It is not a matter of access as people often say. Once the oil is on the seas it goes anywhere. In fact if the United States used no Middle East oil, it'd have the same policies. If we went on solar energy tomorrow, it'd keep the same policies. Just look at the internal record, or the logic of it, the issue has always been control. Control is the source of strategic power....

Dick Cheney declared in Kazakhstan or somewhere that control over pipeline is a "tool of intimidation and blackmail." When we have control over the pipelines it's a tool of benevolence. If other countries have control over the sources of energy and the distribution of energy then it is a tool of intimidation and blackmail exactly as Cheney said....

So Iran is a different situation. It's part of the major energy system of the world....

There are several issues in the case of Iran. One is simply that it is independent and independence is not tolerated. Sometimes it's called successful defiance in the internal record. Take Cuba. A very large majority of the U.S. population is in favor of establishing diplomatic relations with Cuba and has been for a long time with some fluctuations. And even part of the business world is in favor of it too. But the government won't allow it. It's attributed to the Florida vote but I don't think that's much of an explanation. I think it has to do with a feature of world affairs that is insufficiently appreciated. International affairs is very much run like the mafia. The godfather does not accept disobedience, even from a small storekeeper who doesn't pay his protection money. You have to have obedience otherwise the idea can spread that you don't have to listen to the orders and it can spread to important places....

Going back to Iran, it's not only that it has substantial resources and that it's part of the world's major energy system but it also defied the United States. The United States, as we know, overthrew the parliamentary government, installed a brutal tyrant, was helping him develop nuclear power, in fact the very same programs that are now considered a threat were being sponsored by the U.S. government, by Cheney, Wolfowitz, Kissinger, and others, in the 1970s, as long as the Shah was in power. But then the Iranians overthrew him,...

And again, the will of the U.S. population and even US business is considered mostly irrelevant. Seventy five percent of the population here favors improving relations with Iran, instead of threats. But this is disregarded. We don't have polls from the business world, but it's pretty clear that the energy corporations would be quite happy to be given authorization to go back into Iran instead of leaving all that to their rivals. But the state won't allow it. And it is setting up confrontations right now, very explicitly. Part of the reason is strategic, geo-political, economic, but part of the reason is the mafia complex. They have to be punished for disobeying us....

I presume part of the reason for the U.S.-Israel invasion of Lebanon in July -- and it is US-Israeli, the Lebanese are correct in calling it that -- part of the reason I suppose was that Hezbollah is considered a deterrent to a potential U.S.-Israeli attack on Iran. It had a deterrent capacity, i.e. rockets. And the goal I presume was to wipe out the deterrent so as to free up the United States and Israel for an eventual attack on Iran....

As far as I'm aware, the military in the United States thinks it's crazy. And from whatever leaks we have from intelligence, the intelligence community thinks it's outlandish, but not impossible. If you look at people who have really been involved in the Pentagon's strategic planning for years, people like Sam Gardiner, they point out that there are things that possibly could be done.

I don't think any of the outside commentators at least as far as I'm aware have taken very seriously the idea of bombing nuclear facilities. They say if there will be bombing it'll be carpet bombing. So get the nuclear facilities but get the rest of the country too, with an exception. By accident of geography, the world's major oil resources are in Shi'ite-dominated areas. Iran's oil is concentrated right near the gulf, which happens to be an Arab area, not Persian. Khuzestan is Arab, has been loyal to Iran, fought with Iran not Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war. This is a potential source of dissension. I would be amazed if there isn't an attempt going on to stir up secessionist elements in Khuzestan. U.S. forces right across the border in Iraq, including the surge, are available potentially to "defend" an independent Khuzestan against Iran, which is the way it would be put, if they can carry it off....

There was a release of a Pentagon war-gaming report, in December 2004, with Gardiner leading it. It was released and published in the Atlantic Monthly. They couldn't come up with a proposal that didn't lead to disaster, but one of the things they considered was maintaining troop presence in Iraq beyond what's to be used in Iraq for troop replacement and so on, and use them for a potential land move in Iran -- presumably Khuzestan where the oil is. If you could carry that off, you could just bomb the rest of the country to dust.

Again, I would be amazed if there aren't efforts to sponsor secessionist movements elsewhere, among the Azeri population for example. It's a very complex ethnic mix in Iran; much of the population isn't Persian. There are secessionist tendencies anyway and almost certainly, without knowing any of the facts, the United States is trying to stir them up, to break the country internally if possible. The strategy appears to be: try to break the country up internally, try to impel the leadership to be as harsh and brutal as possible.

That's the immediate consequence of constant threats. Everyone knows that. That's one of the reasons the reformists, Shirin Ebadi and Akbar Ganji and others, are bitterly complaining about the U.S. threats, that it's undermining their efforts to reform and democratize Iran. But that's presumably its purpose. Since it's an obvious consequence you have to assume it's the purpose. Just like in law, anticipated consequences are taken as the evidence for intention. And here's it so obvious you can't seriously doubt it.

So it could be that one strain of the policy is to stir up secessionist movements, particularly in the oil rich regions, the Arab regions near the Gulf, also the Azeri regions and others. Second is to try to get the leadership to be as brutal and harsh and repressive as possible, to stir up internal disorder and maybe resistance. And a third is to try to pressure other countries, and Europe is the most amenable, to join efforts to strangle Iran economically. Europe is kind of dragging its feet but they usually go along with the United States.

The efforts to intensify the harshness of the regime show up in many ways. For example, the West absolutely adores Ahmadinejad. Any wild statement that he comes out with immediately gets circulated in headlines and mistranslated. They love him. But anybody who knows anything about Iran, presumably the editorial offices, knows that he doesn't have anything to do with foreign policy. Foreign policy is in the hands of his superior, the Supreme Leader Khamenei. But they don't report his statements, particularly when his statements are pretty conciliatory. For example, they love when Ahmadinejad says that Israel shouldn't exist, but they don't like it when Khamenei right afterwards says that Iran supports the Arab League position on Israel-Palestine. As far as I'm aware, it never got reported. Actually you could find Khamenei's more conciliatory positions in the Financial Times, but not here. And it's repeated by Iranian diplomats but that's no good. The Arab League proposal calls for normalization of relations with Israel if it accepts the international consensus of the two-state settlement which has been blocked by the United States and Israel for thirty years. And that's not a good story, so it's either not mentioned or it's hidden somewhere.

It's very hard to predict the Bush administration today because they're deeply irrational. They were irrational to start with but now they're desperate. They have created an unimaginable catastrophe in Iraq. This should've been one of the easiest military occupations in history and they succeeded in turning it into one of the worst military disasters in history. They can't control it and it's almost impossible for them to get out for reasons you can't discuss in the United States because to discuss the reasons why they can't get out would be to concede the reasons why they invaded.

We're supposed to believe that oil had nothing to do with it, that if Iraq were exporting pickles or jelly and the center of world oil production were in the South Pacific that the United States would've liberated them anyway. It has nothing to do with the oil, what a crass idea. Anyone with their head screwed on knows that that can't be true. Allowing an independent and sovereign Iraq could be a nightmare for the United States. It would mean that it would be Shi'ite-dominated, at least if it's minimally democratic. It would continue to improve relations with Iran, just what the United States doesn't want to see. And beyond that, right across the border in Saudi Arabia where most of Saudi oil is, there happens to be a large Shi'ite population, probably a majority.

Moves toward sovereignty in Iraq stimulate pressures first for human rights among the bitterly repressed Shi'ite population but also toward some degree of autonomy. You can imagine a kind of a loose Shi'ite alliance in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, controlling most of the world's oil and independent of the United States. And much worse, although Europe can be intimidated by the United States, China can't. It's one of the reasons, the main reasons, why China is considered a threat. We're back to the Mafia principle....

More: http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=15&ItemID=12169
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Shit, did Noam Chomsky really hyphenate the word "irrelevant"? What a moron!
And to think he calls himself a linguist.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. No that was I.
:dunce:
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I was just looking for a clever way to kick. Chomsky is worth reading even when he's wrong.
He's always thought provoking and always treats his reader's intelligence with respect. I really admire the guy's work.

Now tell me this wasn't a far more respectful way to kick a thread in need of readers.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Thanks . . .
It IS kind of disappointing to see an interesting article sink.

It has this nice wide overview.

I like how he defines what makes multi-national corporations gangs. I know I've been thinking they actually are bad, but it hasn't been a unified concept in my mind until now.

I like how he emphasizes that they REALLY CANNOT tolerate a free independent Iraq. I thought there were still options.

I like how he describes how the Bush Gang has been messing with Iran.

And I guess I WAS thinking the will of the People still mattered even if just a little bit.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
39. Condi has talked about working with groups INSIDE IraN to bring about
change. several times I have heard her talk of this including when she wanted funds for that new Democracy agency she has going in the State Dept.

But she never gives any specifics
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. I wish someone would ask her about Khuzestan.
I'd particularly like to know if she knows what stripe of Muslim predominates there http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/living/religion/16768670.htm and what she might think of their relationship to Iraqi Shia and/or Sunni.

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NotGivingUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. much better. eom
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MsMagnificent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
35. Respectful? By calling him a moron?
:wtf:

Oh yeah, very "clever", as you self-proclaim :eyes:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ummmm, Is His Next Article That Water Is Wet? LOL
Did anyone really thing otherwise? :shrug:
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. What's your point? That no one should bother posting critiques of bush ME policies because the
criminality of their motives is obvious?

Did you actually read the article, or did you just read the title?

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. LOL Dramatic Much? LOL
Some lightening up might be useful.

Fact is, the title's pretty damn silly, and since that's what 'sells' what follows, it is worthy of critique.

I also laughed my ass off at your assertion that my lighthearted comment towards it means that I feel no one should bother posting critiques of bush ME policies. What a hoot! :rofl:
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Yeah, I'm a total drama queen. I ask things like "what's your point?"
How very Sarah Bernhardt of me...
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. The Point Was Quite Obvious. The Title And Opening Paragraph Were Plain 'DUHHHHHH' In My Opinion.
Sorry that bothers you so.

I think it's a perfectly legitimate response to the title and leading paragraph (which serves to set up the rest) to say "Ummm, yeah, no shit sherlock" LOL
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Oh so you already knew it was going to be Khuzestan? n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-23-07 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Devon77 Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
31. It's probably not anything new to people who are familiar with it



When Iraq invaded Iran in 1980, Saddam Hussein sought to play the ethnic card. The Iraqi leader portrayed himself as the liberator of the Khuzistani Arabs. His rhetoric backfired. Rather than divide Iran, he unified it.
http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief005-9.htm



The plan to occupy Khuzistan is nothing new. The plan was originally a British military dossier drawn up in 1950 - with early drafts going back as far as the 1930s. Kindly note that this has been documented and any reader wishing to obtain this may contact the humble writer of this commentary directly.

The plan was handed to the Iraqi general staff which was updated with British assistance up to 1980. We already know of the failure of Saddam to implement the objective of annexing Khuzistan. It would appear that the geopolitical strategists have abandoned using proxy Arab troops to annex Khuzistan. Note the following statements by Whitney:

"The Bush administration’s attention has shifted to a small province in southwestern Iran that is unknown to most Americans. Never the less, Khuzestan will become the next front in the war on terror and the lynchpin for prevailing in the global resource war. If the Bush administration can sweep into the region (under the pretext disarming Iran’s nuclear weapons programs) and put Iran’s prodigious oil wealth under US control, the dream of monopolizing Middle East oil will have been achieved. Not surprisingly, this was Saddam Hussein’s strategy in 1980 when he initiated hostilities against Iran in a war that would last for eight years. Saddam was an American client at the time, so it is likely that he got the green-light for the invasion from the Reagan White House. Many of Reagan’s high-ranking officials currently serve in the Bush administration; notably Rumsfeld and Cheney."
http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/MarchApril06/AKhuzestan.html
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A Simple Game Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Welcome to DU Devon77.
Excellent post and very informative.

Thanks.
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Devon77 Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. thank you
B-)
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
51. Thank you very much for this Devon77!
I will use it in letters to my senators.

Also:
I understand that Khuzestan is Arab. Is it predominantly Sunni or Shia? If the U.S. is worried about Shia alliances in the region, it would seem we wouldn't want anything to do with Khuzestan if it is Shia, but if, instead, Khuzestan is Sunni, invading it will give our buddies the Saudis more heat, right?

Thanks again Devon and welcome to the DU! :hi:
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Devon77 Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-26-07 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #51
59. Khuzestan is Shia


One of the operational assets being used by the Defense Department is a right-wing terrorist organization known as Mujahedeen-e Khalq (MEK), which is being “run” in two southern regional areas of Iran. They are Baluchistan, a Sunni stronghold, and Khuzestan, a Shia region where a series of recent attacks has left many dead and hundreds injured in the last three months.


http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/US_outsourcing_special_operations_intelligence_gathering_0413.html


In my opinion the use of this organizations is a half hearted attempt and isn't going to succeed.
They using them as a form of legitimation, source of bogus intelligence and other things.
But that is just my opinion.

:)
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Yeah, a good chunk of America and apparently a number of Democrats think otherwise.
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 01:02 AM by Selatius
But I'm just saying...
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
12. T.W.O.__V.OT.E.S.? !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
:wow:
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:53 AM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks - Chomsky is brilliant at painting the whole picture in its essentials.
History as it happens, stripping out the noise. (K&R)
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 01:54 AM
Response to Original message
15. K&R n/t
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 02:12 AM
Response to Original message
16. I'm surprised at all the flaming here --
Chomsky was brilliant, as always; I found this article full of great bits.

If anyone has an actual correction to make and can provide authority, please, by all means, help us all out.

Lately I see a lot of replies on DU that are basically disparaging and, when the person replying is called on it, they say gee, can't you take a joke. Hm.

I ask the folks who feel compelled to take pot shots at the well-intentioned to try to catch themselves at this and ask whether their reply was actually funny or just undermines a potentially helpful post.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Chomsky speaks truth, and the truth is very uncomfortable to many people,
even here.

I wish that people would heed your request, but don't hold much hope that they will.
:kick: & R

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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. I am never surprised
Chomsky is correct as usual.
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freefall Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Well said, well said. Thanks. n/t
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. I've noticed this, too- and do you know what I think it is?
I think alot of people who gravitate towards the left of the political spectrum also have an anti-authority streak, and tend to attack anyone with power. I'd say that's a very healthy thing, but it also comes out in aggressively deconstructing or simply attacking the arguments of people like Chomsky, because they're considered influential. I think that's very healthy as well- as long as the attacks are based on some sort of logic.

The left has it's own brand of anti-intellectualism, and this is it. You challenge the arguments and opinions of "leading thinkers", rather than simply accepting them. That's the *good* kind of anti-intellectualism, in my humble opinion.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Sorry, I think you have it exactly backwards.
There's a vast difference between the "Left" and garden-variety "Liberals". The Left seeks to challenge the status quo from top to bottom, while Liberals generally just want to do a little tweaking here and there. It has nothing to do with "authoritarianism" or "anti-intellectualism", it has to do with preserving a comforting if illusory worldview, as opposed to digging down to the roots ("radical" -- from the Latin word for "root").

Non-radical "liberals" find Chomsky uncomfortable because he challenges their assumptions and illusions about how the world really works.

sw
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. excellent points sw!
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 06:09 PM by leftchick
and spot on as always!

:applause:

:yourock:
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
42. Maybe so.
You can always count on the DLC sorts to check in with the usual Chomsky attacks whenever the opportunity presents itself, I won't deny that.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. Consider the source
and the intention:

"undermines a potentially helpful post" as usual
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
45. People need to decide whether they are going to "play their own game"
Edited on Sat Feb-24-07 07:06 PM by patrice
or someone else's, that is, unless, someone else's game IS their game. In which case, the rest of us shouldn't let it distract us. I was very much against the "blocking" function DU experimented with recently, because I think it is better for the whole discourse for folks to see the whole thing and learn how not to feed the purveyors of BS - AND maybe even eventually "rescue" a few of those who are hooked on it.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 02:47 AM
Response to Original message
17. K&R.(nt)
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
18. "The Khuzestan Gambit" & US military commissioned SAIC contract in Khuzestan
Thanks for posting that Chomsky interview.

You might be interested in this info that I posted on a related topic earlier today:

For more discussion, Google "The Khuzestan Gambit": http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Khuzestan+Gambit&btnG=Google+Search

There are many pieces written about "The Khuzestan Gambit." An example:


The REAL Plan for Iran
A top former U.S. intelligence analyst has stated that the U.S. plans a broad-scale war against Iran. In other words, contrary to what we are hearing, a "limited strike on Iran's nuclear facilities" in order to protect everyone from Iran's nuclear weapons program is not the game-plan. The military is, instead, planning a "broad-scale war".

But how would the U.S. -- which has already stretched its military thin in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars -- pull it off? By using "The Khuzestan Gambit", as military planners call it. Basically, the U.S. would invade Khuzestan, a small region of Iran containing 90% of Iran's oil. As described by a leading military website, the province

"is the one large piece of flat Iranian terrain to the west of the Zagros Mountains. American heavy forces could swiftly occupy Khuzestan, and in doing so seize control of most of Iran's oil resources, and non-trivial portions of the country's water supply and electrical generating capacity."

Because Khuzestan is a relatively small area, the U.S. and Israel will be able to take it without that many boots on the ground. Therefore, a new draft won't be needed, and only a relatively small portion of the soldiers now in Iraq and Afghanistan will need to be shifted out-of-country and into Iran. Indeed, the Khuzestan Gambit is not even a new idea: apparently, Khuzestan is the province that Saddam Hussein tried to conquer in the Iraq-Iran War. ~snip~

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2007/01/real-plan-for-iran.html

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

ALSO, this is an important connection to this theory. I ran across the below-posted article while looking into SAIC (see, for example, previous posts on SAIC: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=233209&mesg_id=245366

and http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=245971 )


"Abdian told the FT that the SAIC researcher had asked him questions relating to "the ethnic breakdown of Khuzestan province on the Iraq border..."

~snip~ London's Financial Times has reported that the US Marines Corps Intelligence has launched a probe into unrest in Ahwaz with fears heightening that increased ethnic oppression by the Iranian could lead to the country's fragmentation.

The Iranian regime has already accused the British government of responsibility for bomb attacks in Ahwaz, although it has failed to produce any evidence to back up its claims. There is no suggestion as yet that the US's interest in the Ahwazi issue is anything but an attempt to better understand the ethnic composition and commonalities between Iran and Iraq. The FT states that Lieutenant-Colonel Rick Long, a marines spokesman, confirmed that the marines had commissioned Hicks and Associates, a defence contractor, to conduct two research projects into Iraqi and Iranian ethnic groups. Hicks and Associates is a subsidiary of Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC).

The FT reports that: "US intelligence experts suggested the marines' effort could indicate early stages of contingency plans for a ground assault on Iran. Or it could be an attempt to evaluate the implications of the unrest in Iranian border regions for marines stationed in Iraq, as well as Iranian infiltration.

"Other experts affiliated to the Pentagon suggest the investigation merely underlines that diverse intelligence wings of the US military were seeking to justify their existence at a time of plentiful funding."

Karim Abdian, head of the Ahwaz Human Rights Organisation, participated in the research on the understanding that the results would be made public, but did not know the motives behind the research. Hicks and Associates was referred to him by the British Ahwazi Friendship Society (BAFS) several months ago after it was approached to give evidence. BAFS did not participate in the research and has had no further contacts with the US government or its contractors.
Abdian told the FT that the SAIC researcher had asked him questions relating to "the ethnic breakdown of Khuzestan province on the Iraq border, populations in cities, the level of discontent, the percentage of Arabs working in the oil industry, how they were represented in the central government, and their relations and kinship with Iraqi Arabs next door." He speculated that the Marines were probably seeking a better understanding of the region that directly affects them or formulating contingency plans.

The FT said analysts believed that the upsurge in ethnic unrest in Iran was related to the adoption of a federal constitution in Iraq, which has served as a catalyst for a politicisation of economic and cultural grievances.

Reuel Gerecht, a former CIA specialist on the Middle East, told the FT that the State Department, not the Pentagon, is running Iran policy. He said the State Department was was "nowhere near the point" of trying to use separatist tendencies among minorities to undermine the regime's authority, adding that they were unsure that such a move would work.

BAFS spokesman Nasser Bani Assad: "US interest in Ahwaz appears to have been generated by the intifada last April, when Iran lost control over parts of Khuzestan province. It is natural that the US authorities would want to commission their own research on the unstable situation in Ahwaz and its effects on Iraq. From what we understand, the Pentagon is gathering its own information separate from the State Department... ~snip~

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:-DonF8dLnOMJ:www.ahwazstudies.org/main/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D151%26Itemid%3D47%26lang%3DEN+Abdian+told+the+FT+that+the+SAIC+researcher+had+asked+him+questions+relating+to+%22the+ethnic+breakdown+of+Khuzestan+province+on+the+Iraq+border,&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

originally posted on this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=269286&mesg_id=269286
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freefall Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Thanks, Emit, for reposting this valuable and interesting information. This
is the kind of education I value from DU and because I am unable to spend as much time as I would like here I often miss things.

Peace,

freefall
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. Okay, I had never even heard of the "Khuzestan Gambit"
What could go wrong? These neocon think tanks (someone called them petri dishes) have the best minds. We have the best intelligence and the best planning. It's a slam dunk. Flowers. Liberators. Democracy. Et cetera.

Because Khuzestan is a relatively small area, the U.S. and Israel will be able to take it without that many boots on the ground. Therefore, a new draft won't be needed, and only a relatively small portion of the soldiers now in Iraq and Afghanistan will need to be shifted out-of-country and into Iran. Indeed, the Khuzestan Gambit is not even a new idea: apparently, Khuzestan is the province that Saddam Hussein tried to conquer in the Iraq-Iran War. ~snip~

Which, if it was so easy, why didn't Saddam succeed?




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freefall Donating Member (617 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
21. Thank you, patrice, for posting this illuminating interview.
Chomsky is indeed brilliant and insightful.

K&R :kick:

Peace,

freefall
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Mind_your_head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
25. Interesting article with lots of "not to be spoken" truths - Recommended
and a morning :kick:
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
26. Anyone that wants to know what it's all about Should read this

Thanks patrice for posting this

Chomsky sums it all up and he hits multiple nails on the head.

REC!

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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
27. I hate that he's right.. because it's really scary, and I can't
see a way out of disaster when all the facts are on the table, like they are here.
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Dhalgren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
29. Chomsky is a national treasure. We need him more now than ever.
K&R! Some of us are late to the board this morning. Timing, in these posting matters, is everything...
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northamericancitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
32. Kick
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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
33. To covertly destabilize a country, to throw it into civil war and chaos
is immoral. As we gain evidence that this may be the plan for Iran, it gives credibility to the claim that the chaos we've unleashed in Iraq was intentional. This is hardly spreading democracy. It is a criminal and immoral foreign policy.

Again, I would be amazed if there aren't efforts to sponsor secessionist movements elsewhere, among the Azeri population for example. It's a very complex ethnic mix in Iran; much of the population isn't Persian. There are secessionist tendencies anyway and almost certainly, without knowing any of the facts, the United States is trying to stir them up, to break the country internally if possible. The strategy appears to be: try to break the country up internally, try to impel the leadership to be as harsh and brutal as possible.

That's the immediate consequence of constant threats. Everyone knows that. That's one of the reasons the reformists, Shirin Ebadi and Akbar Ganji and others, are bitterly complaining about the U.S. threats, that it's undermining their efforts to reform and democratize Iran. But that's presumably its purpose. Since it's an obvious consequence you have to assume it's the purpose. Just like in law, anticipated consequences are taken as the evidence for intention. And here's it so obvious you can't seriously doubt it.



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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. I agree, donkeyotay
I think some of the Iranian dissident groups are seeing through the facade. It will be interesting to see which direction these events take, and what groups will remain aligned with the neoconservatives.

As you may recall from another thread on a similar topic, the American Enterprise Institute, back in October of 2005, held a conference, which included many Iranian dissident groups. Michael Ledeen was the moderator. Apparently, many of these dissident groups who have been working with AEI and/or Ledeen, were very concerned with this conference:

AEI meeting's lead to general indignation

SMCCDI (Information Service)
October 27, 2005

A controversial "American Enterprise Institute" (AEI)
conference on Iran, which took place yesterday, has boosted
the wave of indignation and emotion among most Iranians.
The objected event, labeled as "Unknown Iran - Another case
for Federalism?", was already shattered due to several
days of protest actions which have started since October
17th.

The subject has become a hot topic on most Iranian abroad
based or opposition - to the Islamic regime - satellite TV
and radio networks. Callers are expressing their dismay or
anger about some of the comments made by some of the
speakers or the conference organizers' true intention. Many
are calling for protest gatherings or the organization of
genuine conferences on Iran in order to expose the AEI...

Of course, those believers are qualified anyhow as "those
who didn't get the real purpose of getting played and
helped somehow the organizers in their try to legitimize
the meeting"!

Protesters' initial concerns were generated due to the
weakness of the content of the conference, its sudden
timing and especially the initial selection and persistence
of keeping some very questionable and separatist speakers
from ethnicities who are living mainly in Iran's 'border
zones'. Even, the sudden nomination of a so-called
representative of Lor tribes "with nationalistic views" has
not been sufficient in order to calm the concerns. Many see
it just as a political move in order to try to calm the
situation and to legitimize the conference.

Even Dr. Manouchehr Ganji - an opponent to the Islamic
regime who was somehow trying to stay neutral in this case
- is echoing now the protesters and many other political
leaders. Most of them are seeing the AEI event as an action
which intends to open the door to the gradual
disintegration of Iran.
They're qualifying the meeting as a
platform for promoting insane individuals who are well
known for having the dark goal of creating future ethnic
wars in the region and the Yugoslavisation of Iran.
It's to note that such possibility would surely have a
domino effect and would spread across Iran's current
borders. It would plunge countries, such as, Turkey,
Pakistan, Iraq, Armenia, Turkmenistan and the so-called
Republic of Azarbaijan (a name created by Stalin in 1914
for qualifying the territory known till then as Aran and
which was detached from the Greater Iran) into wars that
would impact the planet in various ways such as an
unprecedented jump of Oil price. ~snip~

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.iranian/msg/49f0e75d28ce0dc2
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.iranian/browse_thread/thread/9a1e863e8f328a9c/73cffc274db93de6?lnk=st&q=Rahim+Shahbazi+****+persian&rnum=3

More here, in the form of letters to Ledeen:

Dear Mr. Ledeen,


Because I know your background I was not surprised to hear you out.


Not only you are in the verge of dreaming for split Iran but also you are permitting yourself to change a nation’s name??.

The term Persian is WRONG (www.peymanmeli.org/page10.asp)

There is only ONE IRAN, and ONE NATION, and that is CALLED IRAN, and the people called Iranians.

MR. Ledeen, let me tell you; does not matter who is your audience, and does not matter, even, if you mysteriously call one from LORI speaking Iranians to your conference for its legitimating purposes. In any case what you have initiated is WRONG; this business is non-of your and it remains for Iranians to decide; if and when and how they have to deal with their internal provinces.

Tomorrow is late,,, faster… stay out of this NOW!

H.C.




Dear Mr. Ledeen,

I am an Azerbaijani. My family name is proof of it. I do not need to identify myself any further.

I always appreciated your efforts to free Iran.

But this recent act of holding a conference of Iranian separatists has come as shock not only to me but to the majority of Iranians.

I have to confess that I am an Iranian First & then Azerbaijani, not the vise versa.

Please carry on your good work & do not disappoint patriotic Iranians!

Thank you Sir,

H.H.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dear Mr. Ledeen,

The individuals who are the panelists at AEI’s event on October 26, 2005, “The Unknown Iran; Another Case for Federalism?”are not representatives of Azerbaijanis, Kurds, Baluchis, and Arabs. Some of the panelists support extremist views that are not supported by most Azerbaijanis, Kurds, Baluchis, and Arabs. Some of the panelists have a record of activities against the interests of the Iranian people. Some of the panelists have supported the effort to disintegrate Iran.

The overwhelming majority of the individuals and groups in the Iranian democracy movement support a democratic form of government that will respect the rights of all Iranians, including Azerbaijanis, Kurds, Persians, Baluchis, Arabs, Turkmen and other religious or dialect minorities. However, there are different views regarding federalism, and it is not an issue that can be resolved before the liberation of Iran. Emphasizing the issue of federalism today will cause further harmful divisions among political groups, and delay Iran’s liberation from the despotic rule of the mullahs. The best course is for political groups with diverse views to work together to achieve the high priority goal of liberating Iran, and resolve divisive issues such as federalism after the fall of the Khomeinist regime.

Many Iranians appreciate previous efforts by AEI to support the Iranian democracy movement, and they are shocked and disappointed by AEI providing a platform to extremist individuals who promote distorted and divisive agendas. Those who seek to disintegrate Iran are not part of the solution; they are part of the problem. Any activities to promote extremist separatists will help the agenda of the terrorist Islamic Republic.

I urge AEI to be very careful in its actions regarding Iran, and avoid activities that will help the terror masters in Tehran. AEI has previously provided important support for the Iranian democracy movement, and we hope that AEI will continue to stand with the Iranian people in the future in the struggle to free Iran and the world from the tyranny of the Islamic Republic.

K.P.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Might as well add my 2 cents here too.


My parents are from Khorasan. My ancestry is not Iranian but Uzbek and I look very much Uzbek/Turkaman. Europeans rarely guess I am of Persian origins.


The pact made by my great great parents and the people of Iran is acceptance of the supremacy of Iranian culture. Any effort otherwise would lead to the disintegration of not the Islamic Republic but of Iran. And following the horrendous experience of the last 26 years, probably a lebanonisation of Iran.


If after decades of failed policies towards influencing Iran, the AEI thinks that they can pressure the mullahs by pushing the separatist interests, they may well get just what they wanted, a Soviet style collapse of Iran.


Only problem is that the Russians nationalist leading the Communist cause were weakened by the Soviet collapse. The Persians who are not in control of the country will be weakened as well for sure. But the Islamist, the maggot brained groups in power today, will be strengthened by a collapse of the social fabric of the country. They breed in negative thoughts and dark realities. If they feel they might loose power in the near future, they will welcome such a scenario.

A.K.Sh.

http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/anews1.html


And here's an interesting write-up about the conference: (you can watch it online at AEI, for anyone interested)
AEI Panel Lambasts Iran's Ethnic Policies
Ehsan Tabesh
Oct 28, 2005
Washington, D.C. - The American Enterprise Institute and its resident scholar, Michael Ledeen, hosted a five-paneled discussion titled “The Unknown Iran: Another Case for Federalism?” The idea behind the conference, Ledeen explained in his opening statement, had come about through his realization that “only 51 percent of the population of Iran is ‘Persian,’ as they call it.”

Prior to opening the conference, Ledeen dismissed allegations that AEI seeks to dismember Iran by pointing out that the think-thank hosted similar conferences on ethnic groups in Iraq prior to the US invasion of that country. Rather, “the panelists, who think of themselves as Iranian, seek to educate the American Public,” he argued.

The conference and the ensuing chaos, which one audience member described as “Jerry Springeresk,” demonstrated – in spite of Ledeen’s assurances – major differences between the panelists on the central issue of Iran's identity and unity. While Manda Zand Ervin, founder of the Alliance of Iranian Women, emphasized Iran's national unity and attributed ethnic tensions in Iran “to the repression of the Iranian regime,” others put equal blame on the previous Iranian regime... ~snip~

Shahbazi was particularly vocal in his criticism of Iranian opposition groups, which he referred to as the “Persian opposition.” He identified the Iranian government and Persian opposition groups as the main obstacles to ethnic harmony. “When it comes to ethnic rights, Persian opposition groups are on the same side as the terrorist Islamic Republic. If this continues, we will see the Balkanization of Iran,” warned Shahbazi.

~snip~

The tense environment that surrounded the panelists’ statements escalated during the question and answer period. The first question, which was quickly dismissed by Ledeen, focused on his involvement in the Iran-Contra affairs and his advocacy for “an American style Iranian liberation.”

~snip~

Shahbazi, who was the target of a barrage of questions, was asked if he had evidence to support his assertion that Iranian opposition groups were on the side of the Islamic government. Shahbazi said yes and cited Persian-language Television networks in California that failed to incorporate Turkish or Azeri culture.

~snip~

When order was eventually re-established, an audience member asked the panel to outline their view on what US policy towards Iran should be. Ervin-Zand, who earlier had stated that “the regime has concocted the notion of separatism to justify its human rights violations,” called on the Bush Administration to end its “appeasement of Iran.” “We hope to see a US policy that ends negotiations with Iran forever,” she said, arguing that the regime in Iran would fall if the US refused to talk to it. Shahbazi, on the other hand, criticized American support of Iranian opposition groups and argued that “the real investment should be in the ethnic problem. This will be the true nuclear bomb that will blow away the Iranian regime.”



http://www.niacouncil.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=302&Itemid=2
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
54. Everyone should read this post, Post #18, and Post #31
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Another related connection here in post #52 might be worth pondering
Although, if this is where they're getting their intel (Hersh and others have stated MEK is one of Bush & Co.'s sources), I still cannot fathom why they put it online. Any guesses?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=277535&mesg_id=284108
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. "Chomsky is a national treasure."
"We need him more now than ever."

Yes!
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. It does appear that creating "failed states" IS precisely the goal.
Failed states full of internal strife with no strong central government are effectively rendered incapable of mounting any sort of effective resistance to the U.S. military/corporatist hegemon.

"Immoral" is almost too mild a word for this. It's incredibly evil.

sw

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donkeyotay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. I agree. It's hard to find the right words. Evil seems appropriate.
I was wondering what you call it when you destabilize a sovereign nation for the purpose of causing civil war and ethnic cleansing. Would it be a rolling genocide or genocide on the installment plan? Seems like it would be a crime against the peace or even a war crime since it is a specific act carried out for the purpose of killing people who were trying to mind their own business.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. "...rolling genocide or genocide on the installment plan?" Whatever it is, it's death & destruction
& misery being decreed as the fate for thousands, if not millions of our fellow human beings -- by a handful of exceptionally brutal and soulless assholes with no regard whatsoever for humanity.

What gives them the right to condemn so much of the world to chaos? The U.S. is the biggest terrorist organization on the planet.

sw
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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. And provide for the balkanization of resistance forces into terrorist cells that make good enemies
To terrify the citizens of the developed world into submission.

They welcome the world they are trying to create.

This is why Ledeen & co. convinced Bush 41 to work behind the scenes with Khomeini to consolidate power for both Reagan and Khomeini,

along the model adopted by the Germans who financed Lenin's coup in 1917 that deposed the other leftist, liberal and anarchist factions and led to the sidelining of the workers' soviets.

The goal was to get a regime favorable to withdrawal from WWI. In return, Lenin got money and supplies for the Bolsheviks from the doomed German monarchy.
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scarletwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Excellent point! The PNAC/global military dominance project DEPENDS on "enemies".
"To terrify the citizens of the developed world into submission."

It's worked quite well here, hasn't it? They've even managed to effectively repeal the Magna Carta.

sw
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
43. kick
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Jonathan50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-24-07 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
49. Chomsky's analyses certainly make a lot of people uncomfortable
Erasmus may have thought that in the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king but from long and painful experience I've concluded that Erasmus was a flaming optimist.

The saying really should go more like this.

In the kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is thought mad.

"Being intelligent is not a felony. But most societies evaluate it as at least a misdemeanor."
-Robert A Heinlein, said by Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
52. One other point
I posted a while back on these threads about some of the info on Qods forces from Jafarzadeh
(Strategic Policy Consulting, Inc.):

Is MEK/MKO the source for the propaganda about Iran?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=194123

Bush & Co.'s Intelligence on Iran: A Preview
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=212315


From what appears to be an intelligence source for Bush & Co., we can see that Jafarzadeh is talking about Fajr Base which is located in Ahwaz, the capital of Khuzestan province.




From Jafarzadeh's website:
2. The command center for these terrorist networks is the Fajr Base which is located in southwestern Iran and is affiliated with the Qods Force. This Base is the tactical command center for the Qods Force operatives active in southern and central provinces of Iraq. Communications regarding the activities of terrorist networks and that of leaders of Iraqi groups and parties affiliated with Tehran is directed from Fajr Base. The Base is located in the city of Ahwaz in the north of Chahar-Shir Circle (Falake-ye Chahar-Shir). This base is one of the three command centers of the Qods Force for operations in Iraq. The Qods Force is commanded by IRGC Brigadier-General Qassem Soleimani who is stationed in Kazemi Garrison, located within the compound of former American Embassy in Tehran, near the joint command center of the IRGC.

http://www.spcwashington.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=250&Itemid=26



He mentions a few other locations, as well.

(Btw, I have to ask, why on earth would he put this online? Certainly this is not what our current gov't is using for their intel, is it?!)
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
53. kick n/t
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Jcrowley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-25-07 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
58. Kick
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kitkatrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-26-07 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
60. Kick! n/t
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