Guess which liberal, left-wing "Democrat" politician said this:

[Redstone]

"There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly.

The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both.

I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?

And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."

In pre-Google days, I'd have let people guess, but I'll save you the ten seconds of searching: The "LIEberal DemocRAT" (Yes, that phrase is for the benefit of you trolls) who said that was none other than that pinko commie Barry Goldwater.

It would be a lot of fun, wouldn't it, to see how the pinheads who troll DU so incessantly try to explain THAT one away in their little cesspools that pass for forums. But I'm not going there to find out; I don't want to have to get in the shower again tonight.

Redstone

[Deep13]

1. Yeah, I knew Goldwater said that.

Kinda shows how far off the deep end present-day conservatives have gone.

[Redstone]

4. You knew it, I knew it, but how many rightwingers do you think know it? I'll bet it's

not very damn many. (Even given how illiterate the bulk of them are.)

Redstone

[liberaldemocrat7]

42. I have your Barry Goldwater quote bumper sticker right here.

http://www.dmocrats.org/product/128904156780300082

[cool user name]

2. Interesting ... kicking ...

Thanks for posting that.

What is that I hear? Oh, just a freeper's head explode. Sweet. :D

[Cabcere]

3. I doubt very much

that they'd even try to explain it. Their MO seems to be either a) simply ignore any facts that don't support Bush their worldview, or b) change the identity of the speaker in order to suit their agenda. (For example, "Bush cutting veterans' benefits" becomes "Pelosi and Murtha aren't supporting the troops.") :eyes: It's pretty disgusting, really...but what can you do? :shrug: Thanks for posting this, btw...very interesting. :hi:

[Redstone]

7. Or, much more likely, they'll just attack me for pointing out what dimwits they are, and how

little they understand what "Republican" and "Conservative" used to mean, before it got twisted (by the currrent crop of rightwing ignoramuses, NOT by us Dirty Liberals) into meaning just, well, dimwitted.

Redstone

[Cabcere]

15. That's probably true.

What a bunch of wankers. :puke:

[waiting for hope]

5. I heard not to long ago

a piece with Goldwater's granddaughter CC that he would be considered a moderate today by the GOP standards:

"Still, those opinions have echoes today, and as the documentary shows, while my grandfather didn’t leave his party, his party has left him. Though he’s often depicted as the father of conservatism, Barry Goldwater would be considered a moderate today. He was firmly pro-choice, a supporter of gay rights and, in his later years, said that he thought it was okay for gays to serve in the military."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14863898/site/newsweek/

The GOP is definitely not the party that Goldwater subscribed too - they have sold their souls to the almighty dollar (devil) and have forever changed the dynamics.

[Redstone]

9. He's be considered a MODERATE? Today's rightwing shit-for-brains crowd would brand him a COMMIE!

Can you imagine what Mann Coulter and Rush Limpballs would have to say about him?

Redstone

[waiting for hope]

14. I can hear Ann the Man now:

"Look at Goldwater! He'd rather give comfort to the terrorists by allowing gays in the military! He's a baby killer and tree hugging liberal that deserves jail time at Gito..."

Ooeeuuww....I feel so slimy, never never get into Ann the Man's head, it's sickening.

BTW: just found this great site: http://www.annisaman.com/

[suziedemocrat]

30. Today's Republicans probably wouldn't like Eisenhower either. n/t

[Redstone]

35. What, are you kidding? His warning about a "Military-Industrial Complex?" They'd string him up

from the nearest flagpole, since the whole EXISTENCE of the right wing these days is to PROMOTE the "Military-Industrial Complex."

Otherwise, why would we be building F-22s (which we don't need) at $108 million each, and not building more A-10s (which we DO need) at (I guess) about $8 million a copy, since the tooling is already done?

Redstone

[Odin2005]

47. IIRC Eisenhower was a centrist.

He accepted the GOP nomination because he was afraid the Republicans would nominate an isolationist.

[Connonym]

6. K&R n/t

[Rex]

8. Wow.

It is hard to believe we have moved so far to the right that Barry Goldwater sounds sane! That was a real shocker!

[Redstone]

11. He always was mostly sane. 90% or so. And in that 90%, he was magnificent. Too bad that

there was that other ten percent where he kind of strayed past the boundaries. If not for that 10%, he'd have been President, and I think a good one at that.

Redstone

[Rex]

18. Would have made a much better president than Nixon.

IMO.

[Redstone]

21. Well, now, Nixon may have been VERY defective as a human being, but he really

wasn't that bad as a President: Calmed things down between us and China, the EPA, the Clean Air and Clean Water acts, price controls when inflation was spiraling into the stratsophere, winding down our Viet Nam involvement (even though it too him WAY TOO DAMN LONG)...

He was far from being the worst president we've had (just my opinion). Of course, even if you don't agree with me about Nixon, we can surely agree on who the worst by a MILE actually is...

Redstone

[Rex]

23. LOL...hmm...no don't tell me...

:evilgrin: Does it sound like Forge Tush?

[Redstone]

26. Sounds almost EXACTLY like that! How did you guess?

Redstone

[Rex]

28. A little mouse told me.

Also said something about a Tick hmm...dam, nothing rhymes with Cheney. :(

[conscious evolution]

46. Stainy?

[Hippo_Tron]

38. Nixon was still a terrible president, he just looks great compared to Bush

He escalated Vietnam, not to mention the secret war in Cambodia. He dragged his feet on civil rights as much as he possibly could and presided over lots of illegal wiretaps.

[Prophet 451]

10. Knew that

Thing is, the "conservatism" now in vogue at the Whitehouse is nothign Goldwater would recognise.

Oh, and to the Greatest page with you.

[Redstone]

12. Thank you too much, sir.

Redstone

[stevedeshazer]

13. K & R

Barry Goldwater was a real conservative; a guy I disagreed with most of the time, but someone I could respect.

These phony conservatives are anything but.

[Redstone]

19. And above all else, he DID believe that in the end the Constitution trumped any

contrary belief that he may have personally held.

You gotta respect that, yes?

Kind of like the ACLU...EVERYONE has a moment of getting angry at them for a particular stand that they take, but you DO have to respect them (at least I do) for their unbending belief in the sanctity of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Redstone

[stevedeshazer]

24. Yep

BG deserves respect. These neocons stole the true conservative ideology and perverted it into something unrecognizable.

Goldwater respected the Constitution. The Bush Crime Family pisses on it.

[Canuckistanian]

16. This was from a different time

A time when "moral absolutes" were different from today. :sarcasm:

What was true then is true now. Religious freaks exert FAR more political pressure than their numbers allow.

When, oh when will politicians of either stripe stop pandering to them?

Good point. Good post.

K&R.

[walldude]

17. Someone once said that Goldwater was the ideal Republican

you could have a vicious debate with him on the floor, and when it was over go out and have a nice meal and a couple beers and still be friends with the guy.
The other thing I don't understand about the freepers mentality is how they reconcile the fact that they are supposed to be the "small government" party and the party of fiscal responsibility when their leaders have pretty much raped the American taxpayer to ensure yearly paydays of over $20 million for the CEO's of CACI, Titan, Halliburton and KBR...

[Prophet 451]

25. He was

He had civility, that unlamented but much missed quality of debate. He had principles and he believed in somethign more than lip-service to those principles.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. He's in good company.

James Madison
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
John Adams

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine." - John Adams, letter to John Taylor

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning. And ever since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality, is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your eyes and hand, and fly into your face and eyes." - John Adams, letter to John Taylor

Thomas Jefferson
"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

[longship]

22. Glad to help this one onto the Greatest page.

Thom Hartmann is always talking about this quote. So does John W. Dean.

Consider this. Nixon would be considered a commie, pinko today.

[MonkeyFunk]

27. Yep

I knew it was Goldwater as soon as I saw it.

He would hate today's Republican party.

[Redstone]

32. Hey, MonkeyFunk: I've been looking for this audio clip for you, and finally found it:

http://www.robshow.com/RobNoise/quicktime/BigButtedWoman-56k.mov

Listen to the part just a bit past the middle. You'll like it.

Redstone

[MonkeyFunk]

33. somebody

owes me royalties.

[Redstone]

34. That would be Rob Bartlett. Damn funny clip, isn't it?

Redstone

[eridani]

29. Has anybody tried posting this--

--on that Site Which Must Not Be Named?

[Redstone]

31. Fat fucking chance. They're always inviting us to "come here and fight," but when I tried to,

they cut me off immediately. And I didn't even try to fool anyone or hide behind a different name; I registered as Redstone, because, well, that's who I am...right here, over there, no matter where. I hide from nobody.

They LOVE to say "I dare you to come over HERE and say that," but if anyone tries to take them up on their blustering, they chicken out.

Like cowards always do.

But they have short memories, so I guarantee you that if you go there, at least one of them will be "daring" me to "come here and say that."

It's just what they do.

Redstone

[Redstone]

36. Well, I was wrong. I just HAD to go look, and they're ignoring this thread completely. Probably

because if anyone mentions it there, others there will read the whole thing, and then, well, they might not feel quite that good about their pathetic selves. And they want to guard against THAT happening, at all costs. After all, if they have members who THINK, they may end up with no members at all.

Did I use the words "cowards" and "chickens" in this post tonight? In retrospect, those do seem to be applicable words, yes? It's the New Rightwing Way: If none of the usual tactics will work, just hide.

I am forever grateful that DU isn't like that. How many posters have we seen on DU who say things that fly directly in the face of Democratic Party heterodoxy (many by me), and do they get tombstoned? No, they do not.

Apparently, we have a MUCH bigger tent than the the trolls do.

Redstone

[mitchum]

37. Sorry, But Goldwater was the vanguard for the modern nutjob republican...

party.
The Rockefeller republicans, while still despicable, were certainly the lesser of two evils in comparison to that poster boy for Orange County wingnuts.

[Redstone]

39. Orange County? Isn't that in California? And wasn't Goldwater from Arizona?

Redstone

[mitchum]

40. Yes, of course, Goldwater was from Arizona...

however, please research the history of the 20th century US conservative movement. There was the "traditional" east coast republican party AKA "the Rockefeller republicans" and a newer, growing, even more right wing movement based out of Orange Co, CA (those people were almost Birchers) Goldwater was indeed their boy. Of course, Reagan was eventually their "savior", not Goldwater. But their original hopes were pinned on Good Ol'Barry. This is well documented (I'm not making this shit up)

Sorry, to see that you have possibly succumbed to Goldwater revisionism. And it is indeed revisionism. Unfortunately, you are not alone.

[Redstone]

41. Aha. I appreciate the information, but only just about as much as I resent the

personal attacks.

Don't you think it just MIGHT be better for all of us DUers if you could share information that you have, without throwing in the personal insults?

People will like to learn from you if you set out to educate them with the knowledge that you have; but in turn people will think of you as being naught but a pompous prick if you grant them the benefit of your knowledge, but do so only at the price of making them endure your supercilious insults.

So, would you rather that people respond to your posts by saying "Hey, thanks, I hadn't thought of that," or by thinking "fuck him, he's just going to tell me I'm stupid, like he always does, because I don't agree with him?"

Just a bit of advice, Take it or not; it's entirely your choice.

Redstone

[mitchum]

43. Just where was the personal attack? Personal insult?

Hell, I even qualified it with "POSSIBLY succumbing to Goldwater revisionism"
Look, this isn't the first time I've seen people singing hosannas to Barry Freakin' Goldwater on a Democratic board.
A Democratic board.
And it always astounds me.
Truth be told, I'm far more concerned about what people here think about Barry Goldwater than what they think about me. Because, to me, that's what's far more important.
Sorry if you took offense. None was intended.

[Redstone]

49. You're right. I should not have reacted like that, and I apologize.

I read your message incorrectly, and reacted inappropriately.

Stated here for the record, because a PM doesn't get seen by everyone.

Redstone

[mitchum]

50. No problem, peace to you

Redstone, you're a good guy

[OneBlueSky]

44. Barry Goldwater was a true conservative, unlike the neocons of today . . .

he actually spoke up for real conservative principles, which I can respect . . . he was, for example, a committed environmentalist -- understood that "conservative" and "conservation" are related . . . I voted for LBJ, of course, but I always enjoyed listening to AuH20 . . .

[mmonk]

45. Yep. Today's republican party is very much different

than Goldwater republicans. This was a topic of discussion last Saturday night in Chapel Hill. If we are to defeat this more virulent religious right strain, we need to make people aware how extreme they are. That could maybe at least split them up.

[Marnieworld]

48. Goldwater was one of the good ones

He was seriously wrong about a number of things, but he was a straight shooter, independent and by today's standards a liberal on many issues.