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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:57 AM
Original message
The Hate that Hate Produces
For my generation, "The Hate that Hate Produced" was a 1959 TV documentary in which Louis Lomax and Mike Wallace introduced middle class America to the Nation of Islam. It featured the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, Louis Farrakhan, and most importantly, Malcolm X. The next generation knows it as a Sister Souljah production, with some curious relationship with the 1992 elections. We all have our personal and generational experiences with the dark side of American life, with racism, sexism, and other "-isms" that divide us as people, and which too often produce anger and hatred.

In 1959, Minister Malcolm X was still preaching Elijah’s gospel of separation. When the sun goes down and the danger of the darkness becomes the greatest, he said, every being naturally sought out its own type for security: black birds with black birds, blue birds with blue birds, and on and on.

In the early 1960s, Malcolm began to question Elijah’s rigid separation theology. He had contact with politicians and attorneys including Rep. Adam Clayton Powell, Percy Sutton, and Charles Rangel. He also began to work in cooperation with some of the more radical grass roots civil rights leaders. And, indeed, after being expelled from the NOI, Malcolm began to have contact with Martin Luther King, Jr.

At one of his last public meetings, an advocate of separatism confronted Malcolm: "We heard you changed, Malcolm. Why don’t you tell us where you’re at with them white folks?" Village Voice writer Marlene Nadle wrote that "without dropping a syllable he (Malcolm) gave a black nationalist speech on brotherhood" (2-25-65)

"I haven’t changed," he said. "I just see things on a broader scale. We nationalists used to think we were militant. We were just dogmatic. It didn’t bring us anything. …. We’ve got to give the man a chance. …We’ve got to be more flexible. … I’m not going to be in anybody’s straitjacket. I don’t care what a person looks like or where they come from. My mind is wide open to anyone who will help get the ape off our backs."

In the late 1960s and the ‘70s, the democratic party began to change. It involved struggle. There were groups that had their own identity, and which were able to access political and social power by having a "special interest" that translated into a voting block. Two that come to mind were blacks and women. But there were also many other groups, including other non-white people, anti-war and social justice activists. Many groups had overlapping interests.

Alone, each of the individual groups was like a finger that their enemy could easily break. Together, they formed a powerful fist that could be used to protect everyone’s interests.

The democratic party experienced other changes. In ’68 and ’72, a large number of people in the southern states moved into the republican camp. And in 1980, the neoconservatives also changed party affiliation.

The strength of the democratic party was the ability to unite people, and to engage in "the Good Fight." A generation of progressive leaders had been schooled in the arts of struggle by men like Martin Luther King, Jr., and Robert Kennedy. There were also many leaders at other levels, from Cesar Chavez to Gloria Steinem to David Dellinger and many others, who may or may not have been members of the democratic party, but who worked in cooperation with others advocating a just society.

The fight has never been easy, and every gain that has been made in 40 years has required sacrifice. The forces that oppose a just society have attempted to isolate and break different groups, usually by turning one against another. In the past few years, more of the democrats at the grass roots level have become aware of the growing threat to our nation, including attempts to destroy the Constitution.

Throughout human history, dictators have always known that in order to oppress a group of people, one needs to appeal to what Robert Kennedy called "the darker impulses." If a "leader" can make a population hate and fear a common "enemy," they can trick those people forget about their own low level of being. Yet this can only lead to an eventual break-down in any society.

That Constitution is the social contract that can keep our society from a total break-down. It requires that we learn from history, and not repeat those mistakes that have kept us from maintaining higher ground. Our difficulties are not only caused by the actions of people like Bush and Cheney. In the past seven days, we see the democratic primary contest raising issues of racism, sexism, and conflict between social classes.

Too often, we identify issues in "us" versus "them." We can find goodness and strength in being male and female; black, brown, red, yellow and white; young and old; Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, agnostic, and atheist; heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual. Or we can allow these same things to divide and weaken us.

Hatred and fear lead to violence. Always. It has done so all around the globe, throughout history. It has happened here, and not just in the Civil War. Just as mosques have been bombed in Iraq, we have had churches bombed in America. We have had abortion clinics bombed. If we read the reports of the Southern Poverty Law Center, we find many current examples of hatred translating to the ugliest forms of violence, targeting our brothers and sisters because they are Jewish, or gay, or have brown skin.

We must unite, and work towards making our society safe and just. This includes putting the lessons of Martin and Robert into practice. It does not mean that we allow ourselves or our families to be victims. Nor does it mean that we take on the tactics of those we must confront, from the violent thug on the street to the advocates of hatred in the White House.

2008 should not become known for the hate that hate produced. We need to put our differences behind us, to the greatest extent possible, and focus on what we have in common. And then, and only then, can we move towards that higher ground.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. Excellent post, as usual
We do have a lot more in common than we have different. Sometimes, many of us forget that.

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flashl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. Great post.
When the 'sports' winner takes all climate in politics ends, then may be, we will be united.
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
3. hatred bounces ~e.e. cummings
K and R
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. A thread on GD-P
reminded me of this quote that I think is important:

"In times of severe social stress, societies lay bare their essential structural elements. A basically cohesive community will remain reasonably united in a period of adversity, while one containing divisive elements will fragment."
-- An Uncivil War: The Southern Background during the American Revolution; Hoffman, Tate, & Albert; University Press of Virginia; 1985; pg xii.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Slips Of The Tongue Lately
Point up areas that need to be laid bare. Trash talking, basket ball playing, lazy, shuck and jive, and so many other little words that have made their way into the public arena. What lies beneath is shocking and needs to rise to the top so we can look at it straight on.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. The veiled sexim and racism is laying bare American society's
failure to see that we have a long way to go.

I support neither Clinton or Obama but I see the veiled racism and sexism in the MSM and in social discourse and I just thought we'd come so far.
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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. In high school I wrote an article for the school paper about how far we'd come
The teacher balled it up and threw it away and said I was on crack.

She was right.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. If nothing else comes from this, maybe the dialog can begin again.
I'm clinging to the flimsiest of hopes at this point. :cry:
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
68. i feel the same way
it is 2008 for gawdsake - we should be so far past that crap. but we're not, and it disheartens me to know it
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
5. Nice post

The concept of Maya fits here, where we feel divided, but that is only a superficial illusion. And the republicans want to keep it that way for their own sake. I think things will be rough this election, because of the possibilities of electing a woman or African-American.

""Maya, is the principal deity who creates, perpetuates and governs the illusion and dream of duality in the phenomenal Universe.""
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
6. Hate and fear just make you stupid.
:thumbsup:
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
7.  You never cease to amaze me. A related thread; remembering the Chicago riots of '68:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Sometimes, the collective wisdom, experience, and intellect on this board just astonishes me.

Thanks, H2OMan.

k&r
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Blarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
8. gulp.
"2008 should not become known for the hate that hate produced. We need to put our differences behind us, to the greatest extent possible, and focus on what we have in common. And then, and only then, can we move towards that higher ground."

I am not sure I agree. The hate we see and feel today is 100% justified...and needed. I would suggest that if you don't hate the people tearing our country down, then you are brain dead. Some things are unforgivable. 9-11 and the Bush administrations response to it has changed me forever, I will never forgive or forget.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Those who hate
always feel justified.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Exactly. I was trying to think of a response to Blarch's post, but that's perfect.
I can look at it through my own experience for the proof.

Perfect response.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
36. Right.
That is it -- exactly.

There is an old saying: that intelligent people learn from others' mistakes; most of us have to learn from our own; while some people simply never learn. We see that both the Arabs and Jews feel justified in their hatred .... just as the Catholics and Protestants could make what they firmly believed were valid cases to kill and maim each other ..... and George Bush is as positive he is ordained by his God to kill innocent people in order to kill his enemy, as is Usama bin Ladin.

Do we learn from them? Or from our own experiences? We all have no doubt experienced painful things in our lives. We could justify hating others. Or we can learn a different way.
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Blarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Your right.
There is no reason to hate republicans who are shredding our constitution and raiding our Treasury.. :sarcasm:

Lets be honest now.
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MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I didn't get that from the OP at all.
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 11:38 AM by sleebarker
Sure, there is a reason to hate them. There's also reasons to struggle to overcome that hate.

I've always struggled with my hate for the haters. My attitude towards prejudiced people is a lot like their attitudes towards whatever groups they hate. Bigots just don't seem quite human to me.

But they are, and every day I try to remember that and to respect them as individuals with worth equal to mine. It helps to remember that it's probably not their conscious choice to be hateful but a combination of genes and being abused as children and being taught to hate.
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Blarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. He seems to be talking about hate in general.
There is a time and a place for hate, now is the time, and the USA is the place. I will tell you about hate.

I don't hate people because they like Bon Jovi, hell I don't even hate Bin Laden. Bin Laden has his reasons and they happen to make some sense. What I do hate is someone with the same agenda as Bin Laden ...but comes bearing a cross wrapped in a US flag telling me that this is for my own good. I do hate these people for what they have done.

"All that we have mentioned has made it easy for us to provoke and bait this administration. All that we have to do is to send two mujahidin to the furthest point east to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies.

This is in addition to our having experience in using guerrilla warfare and the war of attrition to fight tyrannical superpowers, as we, alongside the mujahidin, bled Russia for 10 years, until it went bankrupt and was forced to withdraw in defeat.

All Praise is due to Allah.

So we are continuing this policy in bleeding America to the point of bankruptcy. Allah willing, and nothing is too great for Allah. " - Osama Bin Laden
http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=7403


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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. You're Right
There are plenty of reasons to hate republicans. We can hate them because they hate us and then they can hate us even more which will provide us with the perfect opportunity to amp ours up.

I don't want to have dinner with them and I don't want to be like them, so I'll spare myself the ugly feeling of hatred and do what I can to defeat them.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. We can each
evaluate if the problems we are confronted with are caused by too much hatred in our society, or not enough. I am confident that those with healthy minds will recognize the cause of the problems.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
39. You wouldn't do anything unless you...um...thought you had a reason to do it.
The nazis felt justified...but I just lost this argument by invoking nazis.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. Not true.
Lots of people can identify times that they did something that they knew was wrong.
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. little stuff maybe, but big stuff?
If there's effort and commitment involved, then it probably wouldn't be done unless it seemed justified.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Individuals
hate and are violent on an individual level. Groups hate and are violent on a group level. What we do on the individual level becomes what is done on the group level. For example, Erich Fromm's "The Sane Society" examines how a society with the individual pathologies of child neglect and abuse, substance abuse, certain mental illnesses, and violent crime are sick societies. As a retired psychiatric social worker who worked with those issues, I can say that the "little stuff" and the "big stuff" are much the same thing.
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AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
72. I would argue
Edited on Sat Jan-12-08 01:07 PM by AikidoSoul
that there is a lot of violence that has nothing to do with hate per se.
Think of the mafia operative that says that he's about to murder you but
that "it's nothing personal -- just business".

In a lot of ways the destruction of Iraq and its peoples are "just business."

So there is violence at that level.

Edit to say that I agree with post number 9 where TomPayne speaks partly about
hating evil and the Nazi regime. So while "just business" motives undoubtedly
exist, it's wise to recognize that it's often more complicated than that.

Violence can easily be infected and affected by other motives, such as racism.

Because the Bushites behavior is so reminiscent of the Nazis -- it's hard not
to hate them and the evil commit.

The saying "hate the sin and not the sinner" comes to mind.

I don't know how to separate the crime from the sinner. Maybe it's because
the Bushites have so severely damaged this country and its soul. I think
the saving grace to this hatred is the love of our own country, its Constitution
and what it stands for. So maybe it's balanced out somehow by intense love.
Somewhere in there grows the WILL to fight for what we see as RIGHT. For
me it's not merely ugly hatred. Is it? Isn't it a much different kind of
hatred than the kind of hatred one feels because of prejudice due to a person's
skin color or religion for example?

Hate must have place in today's huge problems being created by B*sh, Ch**ey and the
rest of that group. Maybe because there are different types of hatred but as of
now there is no language to differentiate it. Hatred of a person of a different
color or religion is far more destructive to a person's own soul than hatred of
a regime that is evil -- that works to destroy the soul of this country and the
ability of a people to reach its fullest potential.

I don't know the reality of what you would feel personally if it hit you in an
intensely personal way... say if you have a daughter and you had no control over
the fact that she was being corrupted by evil forces. Imagine that representatives
of those evil forces ruined her soul and life.

My country's destruction is personal. I feel it every day in an intensely
personal way and I hate the people who are doing it. So no... I can't limit
myself to just hating the sin.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #39
59. No you didn't, ILZ. Godwin's Law does not apply to Imperial Amerika, post-Bush.
Here is why I think so:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/tom_paine/107

In such a nation as we live in now, Godwin's Law is merely a slur to shut down legitimate inquiry as the similarities deepen between us and totalitarian states.

As some DUer once quoted, "When you hear people saying, 'But there are still several differences between us and the Nazis,' we're in trouble.

I hear that sentiment a lot lately.

One more thing. If you haven't looked at Naomi Wolf's YouTube presentation on why there are more similarities now than differences, please click on the link in my signature line.

Godwin's Law simply does not apply in this nation at this time.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 07:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
57. And sometimes, sometimes, it IS justified.
Edited on Sat Jan-12-08 07:37 AM by tom_paine
The Nazis hated the Jews. From that hatred was born a counter-hate of the Jews for the Nazis.

Were the Jews wrong to hate?

Like it or not, and I find it as amazing as you do, we face a "kinder and gentler" version of the Nazis. As implacable, as hateful, as full f lies as the original. The only fundamental difference between Bushies and Nazis is violence and overt racism (current Bushies, as to the time and place of their Nazi revival, need "plausible deniability" for their racism, preferring to use the term Liberal to cover a whole umbrella of racist hatreds while having the plausible deniability to feign innocence.

The Nazis said the Jews were serial liars, and propagandists...evil people who wished to destroy the nation. Evil Totalitarians.

In the end, we see the European Jews were none of those things, and that the Nazis were literally projecting themselves onto their victims.

The Bushies say the Liberals are serial liars, and propagandists...evil people who wished to destroy the nation. Evil Totalitarians.

In the end, we will see the American Liberals were none of those things, and that the Bushies were literally projecting themselves onto their victims.

No, H2O Man, I have watched this unfold for 25 years now with growing horror. I am a Free American, and I was born into the time of the greatest freedom this country has every known, the time when it came closest to fulfilling the full dreams and potential of the Founders' vision, encapsulated by George Washington's quote, "As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."

And after 25 years of watching, I now feel safe in saying that the Bushies have incubated a virulent new strain, deeply related on psychological and social levels to the Nazis. They have created propaganda infrastructures for the exact same purposes as the Nazis did, to will a free people to submit to slavery. There is no doubt nor question at this time. No doubt.

Are we not therefore justified in our hatred of evil, as the Jews were of the Nazis. You can split hairs, but if you accept the Bushies are distilling a new form of authoritarian totalitarianism, which is as close to evil as one can get from the perspective of free people, then it stands to reason that therefore hatred is in this case justified.

I don't like it any more than you. With heroes like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine, such feelings are antithetical to my nature.

But they never could have imagined Nazism or Bushevism (which one day, I prophesy, if it is not stopped, rival the Nazis in their atrocities when Peak Oil and Peak Economy ravage us), and I suspect.

I cannot go back, and would not want to, anymore than I would want to turn the other cheek or forgive the Nazis if I was a German Jew in 1936.

Hatred, in this case IS justified, even though you are correct that all haters everywhere feel justified.

It a a sort of Catch-22, but it is how I feel. It is how all we New Jews should feel about the New Kinder and Gentler Nazis, because we are going to need it when Crunch Time comes...and it will come.

Sooner or later...it WILL come. Once this Pandora's Box was opened by the Bushies, if it was not stopped when it could be, then it must play out to the bitter end, like the Pandora's Box the Nazis opened.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. I think that it
is an error to assume that hatred is required if one is to oppose thugs, or that a lack of hatred equals accepting victimhood.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. I think that all of my landesmenn who went right into the ovens made that mistake.
Edited on Sat Jan-12-08 07:48 AM by tom_paine
Six million of them and five million others who were not my "landesmenn".

Ghandhi stuff only worked because the British were not totalitarians. The Nazis would have greased the treads of their tanks with Ghandhi's blood, laughing at his liberal weakness while they did it.

MLK and his movement could not have worked in Bush-Occupied Amerika. The Bushies would tazer them, drag them to jail, brutalize them, and economically ruin them, laughing all the while at their liberal weakness while they did it.

Maybe you are right, and it is up to every person to decide for themselves what to do when the Citizen Corps, VIPS, VIPERs, and the Nationalized Neighborhood Watch comes to the door, whether that be two decades from now or two weeks.

We disagree, and that's OK, for in the end we are on the same side, for Liberty, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Founding Fathers. We stand against the grandchildren of Hitler's Great American Allies.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. Self-defense
is a human right. What tactics we use makes a big difference.

It is worth noting, for the sake of historic accuracy,that King and his followers were subjected to the exact tactics you describe. Cattle prods were the ancestor of today's tazers. They were dragged to jail. They were brutalized. Their churches were bombed. People suffered and died.

People can -- and indeed should -- question if the problems in our society are tied to a lack of hatred, violence and fear, or if they are tied to a bit too large a dose of those toxins.
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. You have given me food for thought.
Edited on Sat Jan-12-08 08:15 AM by tom_paine
But what MLKs supporters had then that we do not have now is a populace that ultimately was disgusted by the brutality, when they had seen enough of it.

They had an America that was so fresh from defeating Hitlerian Evil that even this relatively nonviolent shadow ultimately made the populace recoil from it.

They had a media, which for all it's faults and flaws, eventually shined an unvarnished light on what was happening to the victims, and didn't couch it in that he-said/she-said bullshit. Can you imagine if Hannity and O'Reilly and the rest had dominated the MSM of the mid 60s with their lies? If they had $2,000,000,000 worth of thinks tanks conducting sophisticated sophistries as to why MLK, those Hippie Liberal Freedom Riders and the others "had it coming" for disturbing law and order, as well as the peace?

Think of how much of our daily entertainment relies on the suffering of others, which so many Imperial Subjects find so pleasurable. From Jerry Springer to COPS and even Pros against the Joes, we delight in the strong pounding the living shit out of the weak.

And we are so far removed from the men and women who defeated Hitlerian Evil, and so bereft of historical memory, that if you have seen Naomi Wolf's YouTube that I have linked to at the bottom of the page then you know that we have already 100% adopted many Nazi Policies, though none of their more violent aspects. Things like embedded journalists and hiding the bodies ofthe war dead and so much more. Click on my YouTube link in my signature.

If you haven't seen it yet, you owe it to yourself to do so.

There is no doubt you are correct when you say "People can -- and indeed should -- question if the problems in our society are tied to a lack of hatred, violence and fear, or if they are tied to a bit too large a dose of those toxins."

That is true, and so very true at any other time when free people are not facing Nazi-Bushie types who feed on lies and who reprogram their followers to be capable of any evil against Dehumanized Target Groups.

But this is not one of those times, and we have to open our eyes to what we face, because they are COMING, and maybe damned soon.

I don't know what the answer is, because what you say is so true, and I wish we didn't live in a time and place where a discussion like this is necessary.

I just don't know. I only know that I can only stand Nazi-Bushie hatred directed at me and mine for so long before I return the favor. I only know that if more Jews had let themselves hate their Nazi-Bushie enemy then maybe they would have FOUGHT more forcefully instead of walking right into those ovens.

There is what we would like to be and what is. And what is is that we face a vriulent variation of Nazism, right down to the Hannity-Streichers and the soup of lies they squirt into the National Consciousness that have won the day, so much so 97-99.5% of our fellow American are STILL clueless about what we face and why they keep on winning with a 26% approval rating.

It is a Triumph of the Bushie Will, just like last time, and all are falling before it, just like last time.
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Blarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #58
69. LOL.
We humans don't seem to oppose things till we have some form of hate brewing in us. Ever notice that ?

Would the Civil war have taken place without hate ? ...Hate is a needed view in todays world. I tried beating the republicans over the head with a flower, but it just didn't work.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. No.
Perhaps you have allowed hatred to limit your perception.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. If you are so focused on the hate that you cannot work towards a solution then it is a problem
We live in a world that involves more then just us and we need to be able to forgive and to work together and come to understandings and sometimes even make compromises.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
34. "... to forgive..."
One of the most important books that I have had the pleasure of reading is Thomas Merton's "Gandhi on Non-Violence" (New Directions; 1964). In it, he discusses the manner in which different personality types view issues of wrong-doing and forgiveness. He uses the example of Hitler as someone who saw "wrong" in extremely rigid terms, which required harsh punishment. Hitler lacked the capacity to forgive.

Those under him were also rigid in their views of the system they lived within. When they were brought to trial, they all claimed they were simply obeying orders. None seemed to have ever been in touch with that part of themselves that questioned what they were doing, much less considering their responsibility to change that system.

He compares that with St Thomas Aquinas, who had very different views on wrong-doing. He viewed it as reversible, and understood that forgiveness had the power to change people.

It is no coincidence that we have a leader with a rigid sense of right and wrong. Rubin Carter has told me about when he spoke with then Governor Bush about the death penalty, and the absolute coldness he noted in the governor. And there are plenty of administration officials who simply do what they are told, seemingly unaware of the cruelty of they actions, never questioning what they could do as individuals to change things.

None of us are going to be Thomas Aquinas, Gandhi, or King. But each of us has the opportunity on a daily basis to share in the power that they believed could heal society.
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mohinoaklawnillinois Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
12. Once again H2O Man wonderful post. K & R
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. K&R
So true.
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. Wonderful post n/t
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byronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
24. Thanks for this.
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bulldogge Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
25. Hate is Easy
I have been keeping up with your post and appreciate the consistent view that we need to work together right now. I can also fully understand why there would be individuals who would feel....betrayed by this idea.

Obviously there are some individuals in the republican party that are nothing short of war criminals and it is very disheartening to watch our country get knocked to its knees economically, socially, internationally and politically day after day. I also think it is natural to feel a sense of hatred towards a number of institutions due to the world we live in. But I think that hate is easy, it is really such a R-Complex response. Not only is it difficult (and sometimes unpopular)in the midst of violence to say this isn't working as H20 man has done but it is difficult not to let that hatred consume you.

If you look at the violence around the world from Ireland to Beirut you can logically understand why it is happening and there may be a voice inside that says they had it coming but that is how they got there to begin with. To truly take part in an intelligent democratic society you have to be able to merge as many conflicting ideas as possible for the benefit of the global community.

"Hatred and fear lead to violence. Always."

If you don't have a child you at least know one I am sure so instead of leaving them with the promise of a barren wasteland why not aspire to lead towards the "higher ground" H20 spoke of, nothing positive will come of hate...at that point what makes us any different than those we hate?



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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I Believe Nelson Mandela Would Agree With You
Instead of holding on to hatred, it was his hope that gained him the presidency. But it's funny how people think and hold onto ideas ideas.

We had a very old friend and one day we were talking about the parade NYC was giving Mandela and what a terrific story it was. She, an African American woman, looked at us like we were idiots. "He was in prison,' she said, 'Since when do we give convicts parades?'
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. I will try
to find a nice photo of Nelson Mandela, with his friend Dr. Rubin Carter. Both of them had reason to be bitter, if anyone did. But as Rubin often says, bitterness contaminates the vessel which contains it.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
26. Sliming Obama
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
28. I wish that I had more than one Recommend to give
This was excellent and as always just so true. Thanks! :patriot:
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
29. I believe you've captured the fundamental truth, H2O Man.
Thanks for the thread.:thumbsup:
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northofdenali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
30. I cannot hate. It turns right back on you, times three.
“In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia.”
George Orwell quotes (English Novelist and Essayist, 1903-1950) http://thinkexist.com/quotation/in_our_age_there_is_no_such_thing_as-keeping_out/207767.html

I don't "do" politics. What I do is try and seek the truth and, if that means working through the vicious slime of politics, I'll try working through. If that doesn't work, there are always other paths.




I wouldn't want this art hanging on my walls.

I'd rather see this: http://www.slide.com/r/hD6DvyAOxD9ClUhvUpVcUMABW9QzpGnQ
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
31. K/R
Hate Kills!
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
33. Thank you. K&R.
:thumbsup:
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
35. "My mind is wide open to anyone who will help get the ape off our backs."
Edited on Fri Jan-11-08 04:14 PM by TahitiNut
Amen. That "ape" is treating human beings as commodities. It's called "objectification." Black, male, one each.

I make no secret of my admiration - no, that's too small a word - love and respect for Barbara Jordan. It isn't because she treated herself as "black, female, one each." It's because she was totally and completely the individual human being she was. Without the slightest 'proof' whatsoever, I am fully confident that she would allow me the same freedom in her presence. The same respect for being the individual human being I am and not "white, male, one each." I cannot be true to myself without falling in love and standing in respect for anyone such as that.

I have a good friend. She was a burn victim as an infant and her face and body are covered with disfiguring scar tissue. I think of her as beautiful. She, in how she sees herself and how she sees others, grants me that liberty. That is an enormous gift - one which, really, we should ALL aspire to granting one another. The wealth resulting from such gift-giving would be greater than any wealth in human history.

I aspire to meet or exceed the standards these fine people have modeled. I can but try. And try. And try.

As we lower our standards - sneering at "purists" and demeaning those who'd have higher expectations - never giving ourselves the chance to forgive as we swim in the sewage of such lowered expectations - we earn whatever social, political, or economic hell we create.

I know what 'grace' is. I know what 'honor' is. I aspire to a world where the expectation is "content of character" rather than feces-flinging proficiency. It must be about that message and we must cease assassinating the messengers. What we kill is any chance to live in a better world of our own creation. That, after all, is our only job in even being here.

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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #35
47. What an inspired post.
:hug:
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rtassi Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #35
49. How are you feeling?
Recovery progressing as you had hoped?
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motocicleta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #35
52. Good god, what a beautiful post.
Edited on Sat Jan-12-08 02:02 AM by motocicleta
edited for sentimentality.
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northamericancitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
37. K & R Thank you for sharing your insights. nt
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
38. K&R
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Fiendish Thingy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
40. I'll admit to plenty of anger over what has transpired over the last 7 years,
including much anger at the perpetrators; Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Bin Laden etc. for their actions, Pelosi, Reid, et al for their inaction.

but at this point, even after all that has happened, I think I can honestly say I don't feel any hatred towards any of them. I may not be ready to forgive, but I'm not consumed with hatred.

IMO, anger and love can coexist; hatred and love cannot.

I'll leave you with some quotes that I think fit in this thread nicely:

“We make war with such certainty, yet are befuddled how to create peace. This paradox requires reflection, if we are to survive. Making and endorsing war demands a secret love of death, a fearful desire to embrace annihilation. Creating peace requires the mirror of compassion, putting ourselves in the other person’s place, in all their suffering, in all their hopes, and to act from our heart’s capacity for love, not fear."

U.S. Congressman Dennis Kucinich

"Hatred never ceases by hatred, But by love alone is healed, This is an ancient and eternal law." The Buddha

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers, and for a time they seem invincible. But in the end, they always fall. Think of it, always."

-Ghandi
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
44. Right on.



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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Right on!
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-11-08 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
46. Beautiful essay
This is a good time for it too.
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rtassi Donating Member (486 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
48. Thank you H20 Man!
What we focus on most, what we give our full attention and passions too, will be what we create, and what we will experience, for good or for bad ... Thoughts supported by emotions, set into motion by words become reality.
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
50. If this doesn't seem out of step with what you're saying
You're goddamn right.

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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
51. "Either we live together as brothers
or perish together as fools."
Martin Luther King
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. That remains one
of his most powerful statements.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
53. i hate the hate that hate produces!
just kidding....kicking back to the top
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
55. This morning
on the "articles & editorials" forum, a person posted an attack on Senator Obama. Two things stood out: in the heading, the person called Senator Obama "Osama," and the link didn't go to the article the person claimed to be quoting from. This is the type of nonsense that really should stop.
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #55
63. Perfect example of your point. The venom fuels reaction, not thought.
There's an awful lot of it around here these days, sadly.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
56. Very eloquently stated. We are being distracted.... from the
"Good Fight" I see no other means for the poor and those without clout but to flock to a man who will challenge those who want to keep us seperated.
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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
64. the older i get, the more i know, the more radical i become. but i hate way less because.
hate becomes an end in itself. it blinds one to solutions. and i seek solutions.
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mother earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
65. Wonderful post, H20, but as for this board and for our party,
I think many of us are pulled away from unity because of our fears of losing to the haters yet again, by hook or by crook, and divided upon who exactly it will take to win what is achievable in today's climate of mass deception.

Only when we clean up the chaos and set things right again, can we even hope to unite for the highest ideas you speak so eloquently about.
You are right, with MSM being what it is (add to that all of the lobbyist peddling and corruption) we are limited in 2008/2009.

Let wisdom be our guide in how we can most effectively win back all that we hold dear.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #65
73. k&R...
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
66. k&r
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
67. beautiful and timely
i hope everyone listens
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maxpower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
70. Well said!
Excellent post as usual.
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Orsino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
74. I prefer to remember Malcolm X for his letter from Mecca ('64).
http://www.malcolm-x.org/docs/let_mecca.htm

I think that he did change when he became able to "see things on a broader scale."
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-12-08 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
75. This really hits me on a deep level.
Primaries are always contentious. Supporters are passionate about their candidates and feel an intrinsic (I believe) compulsion to persuade others that their candidate is "The One." This primary is a bit different, in that we truly do have a multitude of "Ones." There is no perfect person and there is no perfect candidate. But the unique thing about our candidates is that I really feel all of them can be pulled (if you will) to the proverbial left by popular will. They are not dogmatic like Bush, Cheney, and the Republican contenders.

Tearing down our candidates is not the way to go. I think one of Hillary's biggest fears is admitting that she was wrong on IWR. I believe that if she felt there was a venue for her to admit that mistake without being crucified, she would. But the bottom line is that she can't and so she won't. Yes, it bothers me, but then again, do I think she'll continue the Iraq fiasco? No, I really don't. I think troops would be withdrawn under Clinton, under Edwards, under Obama, under Kucinich, under Biden, under Richardson... take your pic. (I thought they would have been withdrawn under Kerry, Dean, and Clark too, but that's another topic.)

There are other topics, such as the economy; the falling dollar, the mortgage crisis, and the labor market (to name a few). ALL of the candidates represent a VAST improvement in these areas. Governmental agencies like the EEOC and Justice Department will no longer be home to dens of thieves and corruption. The only significant area I worry about is on the issue of health care. That's a concern, and besides Kucinich, there is no one advocating a Universal health care plan. But if Congress passes Universal health care legislation, do you doubt any one of our candidates will sign it? Of course they will.

In my opinion, a lot of the anger and frustration of past deeds should be directed towards Congress. They make and pass laws. Bush would have gone nowhere (notice his marginalization before 9/11) without the enabling support of Congress. That is where we need even greater pressure, to make sure we don't have a dictator ruling America by decree.
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psychmommy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
76. thanks h2o man
thanks for getting it. this election can't be broken down into race and gender arguments. there is too much at stake to take our eyes off of the ball. thanks for always being that sane sometimes lone voice in the wilderness that guides me back to the big picture. i feel clean again. i need to go back to the lounge for some sanity. i feel dirty in gd and lbn lately.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-13-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Thank you.
I think the majority of DUers, no matter who they support, understand that this is too important an election to blow because of stupidity. There are a handful of people who seem intent upon sowing divisions within the party. I'm happy to see rational people avoiding some of the senseless argueing, and engaging in progressive discussions and debate.
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