What is with this sense of entitlement (re: job interviews)

[Progressive_In_NC]

So I have embarked on the yearly task of finding four new college graduates to bring into our firm and train them up into six figure income earning, 60 hour a week billable consultants by their sixth year in the business.

These young folks will be unbillable for the first two years and thus a cost center for our company rather than a revenue generator like the rest of us. I can not find a single person who is happy with an ENTRY LEVEL salary of $50,000 a year in NC.

They have no experince in our field and a degree in computer science just shows me they are capable of doing the technical work, not that they can operate at the manager/vp/cio level in a company or that they know any of the current technology that we will have to train them in when they reach our door.


Two of the folks (one guy and one girl) are working at Sams Club and Carmax respectively until they can find a job making over 70K to start. Both have turned down anything under 65K/year that they have been offered. For her, it has been 6 offers rejected so far.

I've interviewed 11 people from local major universities so far. I've been asked for:
80K -- 2 times
75K -- 4 times
70K and four weeks PTO (the standard is three)-- 3 times
70K -- 1 times
65K and and a four day work week -- 1 time

My first programming job in 1994 paid me $26,000 a year and I was thrilled to have it. Now I do make the large salary and work the 70 hour a week grind, but this is almost 14 years later almost.

Is it like this for everyone hiring out there now? The sense of entitlement is just outrageous.

[BlueManDude]

1. sounds like the job market is good in your field and geo region nm

[mondo joe]

2. I think it's a generational thing. The 30ish and under set has a much greater sense

of their own $ value than I recall my generation being at that age.

To be fair to the people you're talking about, though they may not be revenue generating at this time, they are an investment for our company with the intent of a future return - otherwise there'd be no need to recruit them.

Of course this is an investment for them as well. So you both have something to gain long term even for a short term compromise.

On the bright side, for you, this is a group who knows how to push for the maximum advantage which in the long run is a good asset for your company.

[malaise]

25. I find they have an highly over-rated sense of their

value and a frightening unwillingness to pay any dues.

[mondo joe]

26. But the maret is flexible. If enough of a peer group agree on their value, that will drive

their value closer to that point.

If no one is willing to work for $X but that function is necessary to the employer, the employer will have to offer more competitive compensation.

[AZBlue]

170. Actually certain jobs - certainly entry level ones - will never go above a specific level.

What will happen is the entry level jobs will disappear. And, that money will (hopefully) be divided among the higher level workers who have to absorb the entry level duties (or it'll be absorbed by the company and the higher level workers will still have to take on the duties). Younger generation workers are actually moving in a direction that will completely limit themselves to fry cook at McDs. If they don't smarten up - and quick - they'll really have something to cry about, to paraphrase their parents.

[liberalhistorian]

68. You've hit it right on the head with that!

"frightening unwillingness to pay any dues"; that's exactly what it all boils down to. There seems to be no recognition that even the most brilliant, highly-paid, highly-regarded, well-known, even famous, people HAD to start somewhere and it usually was at or near the bottom. You can't just start at the top with all the bells and whistles, it just doesn't, and shouldn't, work that way.

I KNOW it's a pain in the ass to mop floors or be a low-level office grunt, no question. But, for the most part, that's where you need to start and build up from there. You are not "owed" anything just by virtue of existing. You have to work for it, and you'll actually appreciate it much more when you do get there, because you've done it on your own.

I think that's what pisses me off the most about those born into wealthy families, a lot of the time they DON'T have to work for it at all, it's just given to them. A good friend of mine grew up in such a family, but her father was smart. He made her and her brother start at the bottom in the family company, NO preferences or special treatment or anything like that at all. And she's done very well at the company. He did that because his own father did not do that with him, just gave things to him, and he wanted his own kids to have to actually work for what they got regardless of the fact that they had an automatic employer to work for, the family company.

Now, if they were in their 30's, 40's, or 50's, with long-term, solid work history, it would then be different, I could more than understand where they were ocming from. Some of these companies now want such people to work and work and work but don't want to pay them anything near their worth. But they aren't, they need to pay their dues first, just like everyone else does and needs to do.

I usually hate shaking my finger at the "younger generation", because, frankly, every single older generation on earth since the beginning of time has complained about the "younger kids" for whatever reason. But this is a legitimate complaint and a real problem. I think a lot of it has to do with that whole "self-esteem" movement in the schools these past fifteen or so years, where students got rewarded for anything and everything, even if they didn't, and ESPECIALLY if they didn't, do a goddamn thing to earn it. That's caused a huge entitlement mentality that I'm not even sure we can do anything about at this point.

[mondo joe]

69. That strikes me as very puritanical. The beauty is this: either the workers

will influence compensation to improve - and thus they will have earned it - or they will fail to do so - and this will "pay their dues".

They can't live forever on no income, so one or both sides will have to compromise.

But just as you are not "owed" anything, neither do you "owe" it to anyone to "pay your dues". It's all a negotiation.

[liberalhistorian]

74. I'm afraid you DO need to "pay your dues."

If I were a hiring person, I wouldn't want someone who'd never done the grunt work to pay their dues in the beginning. I find that usually those types have a horribly inflated sense of their own worth, a horribly inflated sense of entitlement, AND, quite often, no or little understanding of what the "grunts" do, what it's like for them, and how much they contribute to a workplace.

[mondo joe]

78. You only "have to" if you can't strike a better deal. It's all negotiation.

While I think people who assume an air of entitlement to things not agreed to in their hiring are annoying asswipes who need a good lesson, holding out for compensation you want BEFORE taking a job can go only one of three ways: you'll get it, you'll wakl away from it, or there will be some compromise.

Some people negotiate better deals than others.

[malaise]

144. Great post

I work with young people in education so I know. What teaching assistants demand these days just makes me laugh. Every now and then I remind them I was at their stage once and had to pay my dues and earn my promotions.

Sometimes I blame our generation for giving them way too much and for making them feel they're perfect.

I'm with you if you're in your very late 20s, 30s and 40s, I'll fight for you if you're good enough but these 23 and 24 year olds who think they're entitled to perks with minimum effort are on their own.

By the way I'm not even talking about rich kids - just a generation who believe every other generation must clear the way for their arrival.

[ChickMagic]

157. I think you're absolutely right

One of our employment folks said, "They don't mind cheating, they eschew hard work, but they have beyond excellent self esteem."

[gratuitous]

3. I'm approaching it from the other side

I can't tell you how many positions I've seen advertised for someone who is expected to run the office, get all the bills out on time every month, keep up on the caseload, manage the docket, answer the phones, and oh yeah, pick up my dry cleaning every Thursday. Salary commensurate with experience, but in no case will exceed $20,000/year. And these employers wonder why, with 27 years experience, I'm not just jumping at the opportunity.

So the sense of entitlement isn't all on one side of the desk.

[Rosemary2205]

15. LOL - I know exactly what you mean

Nearly everyone I know is in the job market without a college degree and it seems for every job in every field - clerical or shipping or manufacturing or teaching or whatever - the ceilings seems to be 20-25K. I made 42K in Benefit Admin in 1998 and after being out 5 years due to a car accident the next job I could even get offered to me was at $28. I had 4 people before that tell me they would not even interview me because they could not come anywhere near what I made before.

Salaries are dropping like a rock and costs are going up. - Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich and John Edwards seem to be the only voices out there who have a clue (though they disagree muchly on how to solve it).

[liberalhistorian]

73. Oh, I hear ya and totally agree on that point.

And here in South Dakota, we have some of the lowest wages in the country, no matter what the profession is. However, we also have a lower oost of living compared to many other areas and we have no state income tax, which means we get a little more in the paychecks.

I think the worth of the salary depends on the area and its cost of living, as well. $50,000 in NYC or anywhere in CA or many large cities has nowhere near the viability and attractiveness that it would be in SD, for instance. That being said, even with nearly thirteen years of paralegal experience, AND a B.A. along with the paralegal certificate, I've never been able to find a position offering more than $30,000 a year and they want you to move heaven and earth every day in the work as well. After ten years of experience, once, I was trying to get into the "bigger leagues" with larger law firms and companies that paid more than solo attorneys and small firms offered. They all wanted me to start entry-level with salaries of $20-25k, or even less. Had I just been starting out, that would have been fine, but not after ten fucking years of experience, plus the educational background. So, yeah, I definitely hear ya on that one.

[ceile]

149. Aboslutely!

W/ 10 plus years experience in my field, I'm luck to be making over $30K (just barely). Average salary for what I do is about $28K and the cost of living is sky rocketing in this town. Maybe I should move to NC....

[napi21]

4. Have you checked with the University? It sounds to me like they

are all being TOLD to ask for those high salaries by someone, and since they are all newbies, the school is a likely source.

Have you checked the market? What are other employers offering and are you in line with them?

[Progressive_In_NC]

64. I did that yesterday

The University gives these guys "National Urban" averages when they publish literature. So they think that since the national average is 75K, that's where they should be.

The students would need to dig to find out that this includes salaries in DC, New York City, Boston, Chicago, LA, Phoenix, Seattle....all places with double digit % higher costs of living than in NC.

[spooky3]

139. If what these students want is really out of line with your market

you just need to be patient. Stay in touch with them, and they will take the job later, as they find they can't command the desired salaries.

On the other hand, you may be a small business competing with big business, who in general offers higher salaries and benefits for the same work. If that's the case, you can't blame the students for making that choice, but maybe you can emphasize more of the non-financial benefits of working for a small firm.

One other factor is that most of the magazine ratings of colleges and universities include average salary offer as one of the criteria on which they evaluate the *school*. These ratings are very important to many schools, to attract students, employers, donations, etc. You may think it's stupid, but that's what happens. So students are encouraged to get the best salaries they can.

[demnan]

5. I'd not right out of school

but I'd be glad to send a resume. I'm 50 years old with 10 years Cold Fusion experience. I have lots of experience in all aspects of the Business Development Life Cycle. I'm asking $80K - that's just enough to make the mortgage payment and make me feel like I've lived for a purpose.

[Progressive_In_NC]

55. PM me, I'd love to get it...

We hire experienced folks all the time.

[acmavm]

6. Any reason they have to be new college graduates? Can't be

an unemployed professional with experience? There's plenty of them out there dying for a job.

[Progressive_In_NC]

43. This is a new college hire program we've just started

And as company we are only hiring about four a year.

We are hiring about 20-30 new experienced folks a year right now (not bad for a 250 person company). We can't find em fast enough at the rate we are growing.

[NeedleCast]

56. Company I work for had the same problem

When I started working for them we were 300ish strong and have grown about 150 jobs over three years (a large part of that through an aquisition). We recently sold to a major international corp and a lot of that was based on the fact that we were not so much having a hard time finding contracts but having a hard time staffing those contracts. It appears to be a region wide thing because I've gotten a near endless stream of cold-calls from staffing agencies begging for employees.

[acmavm]

59. Thank you for the explanation.

[JuniperLea]

67. What about internships?

We have interns in every summer, and pull from that group for new hires in most entry level areas. When we step outside that practice, we have basically the same experience you are having.

[conspirator]

7. 60 hours work per week. That's slavery. I would charge $200,000 a year for that nt

[sharp_stick]

9. 60 billable hours is different from a 60 hour week

at least in most places I've been. If I look at your file bang: one hour. If I write a report that takes 65 minutes bang: two hours.

[conspirator]

11. sorry my mistake. Sho what exactly 60 means here? nt

[Progressive_In_NC]

30. bout 50 hours a week of actual work

But when you get to that level you're making 120ish (because you're billing out over $300K a year for the company). These new folks are going to log 40 and go home at 5 pm while the rest of us work longer.

[AngryAmish]

36. That is dishonest

I guess if your clients know about that up front it is ok, but when I bill by the hour I break it into 10 minute segments.

BTW, if you don't like the prices, don't pay them.

[Progressive_In_NC]

42. We break it up into quarter hour segments....

We figured it out. Over the course of 52 hours you end up with about 8 hours of overflow. Our clients have it all spelled out in their contracts. It is impossible for me to do something for a client that takes 12 minutes and not have it impact my day.

If they go with our competitors, Accenture, Deloitte, etc. they will be billed an hour for every time they pick up the phone, and the rate will be $250 an hour rather than the 150 we charge.

[AngryAmish]

45. I'm sorry

I had you confused with someone above.

My mistake. I'll leave my ignorant comments up if you want me to.

That said, 50k for 60 billable hours a week is a no go in my world. 60 billable means more than 60 hours a week at work - 7am to 8 pm M-F including lunch. Assuming 65 hours a week at work times 50 weeks of work a year is 3250 hours a year. $50,000 / 3250 hours is $15.38 per hour. Less stress at Sam's Club for $10 per hour plus having a life.... that may be why you are not getting offers.

[Progressive_In_NC]

60. These guys won't be billable for two years

They are only required to work 40 for the first two years.

When they get to the point they bill 60 hours they'll be making about 85K. We give three weeks vacation and a week of sick and we force people to take it all.

Then you figure in the fact that we pay full insurance costs for health and dental (my family costs are 14000 a year for the company, a single person is around $6000). We match up to 5% in the 401(k) and we give out a 5-15% profit sharing bonus two weeks before christmas every year.

So off the bat the folks are getting:

60K base salary ( we advertise 50K but I am authorized to go up to 60K)
6K in health/dental
6K in 401(k) match
6K average in bonus money every Christmas

78K

1920 hours worked

66K/1920 = $40.62 an hour for the first two years.


I made 1.4 million for the company last year and I only made about $15/hour more than that with 14 years of experience.

[mondo joe]

70. It sounds like they are negotiating a better deal than you did.

Or at least trying to.

[conspirator]

44. Although I am on the kids side here, I understand your feelings

You have worked hard to become a manager, and these kids just want to find a shorcut.
I have been in IT for about 7 years and always jumping from job to job.
I don't think being loyal to a company is a path to happy life.
If you work hard, they will promote you by giving you a bit more money, but more work as well.
Until you have very little time to enjoy the money you make. And by the time you get to one of those top positions that pays shitloads of money you are already too old.

[raccoon]

8. As somone who's making less than 25K per year, I'd jump at your offers.

Once I was in a field where jobs were plentiful, well-paying, and offered benefits. Now is a totally different story.

I don't get the sense of entitlement either. But as another poster said, I've seen it from the other side. Some employers want all kinds of degrees and experience for a shitty hourly wage and no benefits.

[Progressive_In_NC]

40. This is a pretty sweet deal

We do IT consulting, but we're a medium sized shop that competes with the Accentures, Deloittes, etc. of the world. These new college hires get to have two years of no responsibility other than tagging along with somebody like me and observing and helping out in non deadline oriented tasks.

All we ask is an Information Systems degree or a Computer Science degree. These guys also get fully paid health/dental/401K match etc, in addition to the base salary. And if they make the progressive steps they'll be earning in the 90K range by year 5 (at 27 or 28 years old).

I'm 34, and I travel all of the time for the company, and I make a wage that matches the sacrifices I made, but it took me 10 years to get here, and I know at 24, I could not have done this job.

[sharp_stick]

10. Reject too many offers and pretty soon they stop coming

we don't even interview people if we find out they've been rejecting similar offers to what we're going to make.

[liberalhistorian]

77. What if they'd rejected the offers because it wasn't the right

company? It's not just the money and benefits involved. If you don't feel the company is the right fit, or they want you to relocate, or they don't foster innovation/creativity or allow too much initiative, or any one of a thousand things that may not have anything to do with salary, then it's wise not to take the job. You have to make sure the company fits you just like the company wants to make sure you'll fit it. Rejecting offers doesn't always have to do solely with money and benefits.

[riverdale]

12. Why not hire two people and not work them to death?

I wouldn't do anything that required 60 hr weeks on a regular basis.

[supernova]

13. Well, you're right in my salary range

I have 15 years of techinical, editorial, and marketing experience. And six years of managing a busy medical practice.

It never would have occurred to me to ask for that kind of money fresh out of college when I graduated, though I can see where they are coming from. No jobs are secure anymore and might as well make the most while you are working.

[formerrepuke]

14. Unrealistic expectations...we all had them once, but those kids need to get their

heads out of the clouds- 50k for an entry level position and being only 22 or 23 years of age is a pretty damn good deal. Many of them believe their degrees equate to an actual dollar value, a belief which the academic industry does not discourage. Life will (hopefully) cure them of this fantasy.

[liberalhistorian]

79. Shit, no kidding. I have a BA and all the people I know

without one are making a lot more money than me and a lot of people I know WITH degrees. Universities need to quit putting their students' heads in the clouds, frankly.

[Touchdown]

16. They know what they're, and what their knowledge is worth

...and you think it's a "Sense of Entitlement" on their part. What about your company? Your employer has no sense of entitlement, thinking that you can pay less for an expensive skill-set, that these kids probably went into serious debt to obtain? Please Mr. Scrooge, another lump of coal!

Look, they know what their skills are worth. They also know that there's no such thing as company loyalty on the company's part, only a demand that the wage slave is loyal to the company until his/her job is outsourced. They already know that your job offers are only for as long as the next leveraged buyout, and then they're gone, out on the streets when the jobs are outsorced, and the american operations are liquidated. How will those college loans be paid off then? Your company never paid a dime in their education costs, so why do you feel entitled to profit off that education without compensating for those costs and the state of american labor vs. corporate power? What makes you entitled to cheap labor?

It's not about what they can live on in North Carolina, it's what they're worth, and they are saying your short changing them, and telling you that with their feet.

How much does your CEO make? What skills does he possess? A 14 handicap? Mixes a killer Mai Tai? Can sell someone his own car? Looks good on CNBC? Why is he entitled to the pay he gets, and these people are not?

[mondo joe]

22. Indeed. If they didn't have value, they wouldn't be recruited and the OP wouldn't be in a bind.

Well done.

[Steven_S]

24. Best reply I've ever seen...

I don't know the market or industry but by the sheer number of applicants that rejected 50K I would start looking at the company.

Your logic and reasoning is unassailable, IMHO.

[NashVegas]

27. CEOs vs Expensively-Trained Worker Bees

People are catching onto the fact that you've got one group of people who basically go through $150k vocational training to work in tech, and one group of people who pay the same amount to be "educated" in Economics, and it's the latter group that goes on to get the $17 million annual paycheck, in part, by persuading people in Group A to work for a tiny fraction of the wealth they generate.

[mondo joe]

29. Yes. One could easily ask why the company feels so ENTITLED to the work of others

at a price less than those people are willing to sell it for.

[Sal Minella]

95. And employers now shuck off employees like dirty kleenex, so why should new recruits BELIEVE the

line that "we aren't going to pay you what you want now, but SIX YEARS from now you'll be in the big bucks" -- in today's work world, six years is an incredibly long time.

[mondo joe]

100. Simple economics dictates that the company is getting value out of these new

hires at some point, despite their non-billable status, or it wouldn't recruit them.

The issue really isn't what the company is paying but what the value to the comany is relative to what it's paying.

[conspirator]

31. Your paragraph explains well the PYRAMID SCHEME society we live in n/t

[blondeatlast]

34. WORD. Excellent response, just excellent.

:applause:

[Progressive_In_NC]

47. Wow, I can't believe your post

Our CEO is a fully billable employee who works on client projects 40 hours a week, and then works 20-30 hours a week to run the company. He started this company with three friends when they left another consulting firm. I'm not sure how much he makes but I'll guarantee it's not much more than our top billable employee after bonuses (that guy made 165K last year, I do know that). Every one in our company has some equitable stake in the company so when or if it's sold, we'll all earn something.

We are not paying less than the market for that skill set, by the time benefits and profit sharing bonuses are figured in we are paying 75K for a non-productive 22 year old WHO WILL EARN NO MONEY FOR THE COMPANY FOR TWO YEARS. That is actually above what the local market will bear. In five years they will be making 90K and with the profit sharing bonus that our company pays out at the end of every year they will most likely clear six figures.

We don't oursource as we are an outsourcing company that only employs American workers. We do project level work for companies that don't want to take on the extra staff to do it themselves. I have been here three years and have yet to see any turnover that wasn't related to relocation for a spouse's job.

A college degree in computer science does not equip a person to walk into my company and perform. We work with technology that college professors don't know as they haven't been in the job field for years in most cases. In the first two years, we will invest over 40K ourselves in training these folks.

14 years ago I would have jumped at this deal. No one offered it back then, and I had to work on my own in my spare time to get these kinds of skills.

But hey, to each his own.

[Touchdown]

57. Your belief doesn't suprise me.

I'm talking about the big picture of the state of Company vs. labor in the USA here. Labor has been getting short shrift for far too long, so excuse me if I can't sympathize with any poor, poor company who thinks people are asking too much. It's their labor they are selling you, and they have a right to guage just how much it's worth, vs. the promises you make for the future of their employment, which they see as no guarantee. If your CEO, who started this as his baby all of the sudden grows tired of this, he's fully in his rights to sell it to the closest hedge fund broker. Then where will they, and you be?

Your company is in no different a position than any other in regards to training. Every company has to train a new employee to the specific tasks that the business is in. It's called INVESTMENT, and it wouldn't be done if it didn't yield future windfalls. Even large phone companies have to train their technical employees $150,000-$500,000 over a 30 year career to keep their skills updated and productive. NO MONEY FOR THE COMPANY FOR TWO YEARS is part of the cost of doing business. This is the part where I tell the managers to read their own "Who moved my cheese" propaganda they've been pushing on the American workforce for decades and sleep with that.

[liberalhistorian]

83. Management isn't always wrong and labor isn't always right.

The fact remains that kids fresh out of college with no experience are not "owed" huge salaries and perks. Most people have had to pay their dues in that respect.

[mondo joe]

84. Of course not. But I also respect that

while no one is "owed" a job, neither is an employer "owed" an employee.

It's mutual exploitation and everyone is looking out for their own best interest. Some do it better than others.

[Touchdown]

106. True, but mgmt has power and labor doesn't.

And... exactly, praytell WHY aren't they owed huge salaries and perks? I know management has told us these things for years, but they never use the same argument when they talk about themselves and their own compensation.

Do we live to work, or work to live? I know management's answer to that.

[mondo joe]

80. But if you are truly paying at market you'll get the hires. They can't live

on nothing forever, and they'er unlikely to live on less for a lot longer if they have a better paying option.

[Selatius]

82. You have a fairly narrow view of employees, don't you???

You view new employees as a simple labor cost when you should be viewing them as a value-added proposition, an investment in time and resources with a future expectation of ROI. I could be wrong and would be more than willing to admit so, but that's the impression I'm getting from you. Do you have a background in strategic management or financial accounting? Because you come across to me more like an accountant than somebody versed in the differences between traditional and strategic HR management models or even the underlying philosophies that animate them.

To be frank, if I were being hired by you, I'd rather you make the opening offer rather than making me name my price first.

[NashVegas]

86. Why Not Just Hire Someone Who Already Has the Skill Sets You Need?

..

[spooky3]

163. When you say they "will earn no money for the company for two

years", have you considered that you are sending a message to the people you are interviewing that you view them as having no value? Is it possible that maybe that message alone is a turnoff? Would that reflect the type of company YOU would have chosen to work for when you started out? Is it possible that just maybe they would have accepted a lower salary if you weren't sending that message?

Are you offering them a written contract promising them that they will make those higher amounts in five years? If not, then you can't be surprised that they might be skeptical. They may also not believe you that they will be working only 40 hours per week in the beginning. You're not asking them to give up their CostCo jobs; you're asking them to give up careers in their chosen field with other employers like yours.

You say, "we are not paying less than the market for that skill set." Surely with your experience you believe that we do have a market economy at the entry level. The situation you are describing simply can't happen in an open market at the entry level--either they will come crawling back asking if the offer is still open (which means they currently have bad market info), or they won't (which means you are below the market, when everything is taken into account). I suspect very much that you are out of line with the total package--tangible and intangible rewards-- that your competitors are offering right now. It has nothing to do with "entitlement" and everything to do with market conditions. What if the tables were turned, and there were an oversupply of graduates, such that you could hire them for $40,000? Would you pay them $50,000 instead?

Also, the national averages the university gave you may in fact apply to your community. You mentioned the cities that were above yours in costs or salary levels, but by definition, averages also include those on the low end. For example, many midwestern cities may pay less than your community does for the same jobs. If you don't trust these data, and you have an HR dept or person, ask him/her to call your competitors to find out what they are paying for similar jobs.

[BellaLuna]

76. skills and work experience are two different things

hence the lower starting salary.

If some of these people have turned down 6 jobs already then there seems to be a disconnect between the present job market and expectations. I too hit the workforce at the beginning of an economic downturn and didn't get the salary or job I went to school for. I took what I could get and moved on up the ladder.

I agree with the OP in that some college graduates feel they should be compensated for their degree not realizing the real value of an employee comes with the experience of actually doing the job.

[closeupready]

148. Totally agree.

n/t

[fortyfeetunder]

17. Unfortunately yes

I am not in a position to hire, but I work around such individuals.

The worst examples -- they want to have the Beemers, plasma TVs, international travel, and other big-ticket material crap NOW and they want a management job right away and a big salary to live off this..

Work, someone said something about working? It's almost like grown up kiddy day care.

I'll PM you with an example...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

18. I'm tempted to suggest removing the mote from your own eye.

Employers are no more entitled to pay low salaries than employees are entitled to high ones.

A £25,000 starting salary for a skilled 60-hour-a-week job would not be considered that much in the UK, I think.

The number of refusals you've had makes me suspect that you're probably trying to get away with paying less than the going rate for jobs of the kind you're offering.

[Prophet 451]

50. 60 hours would be illegal here

The maximum contracted hours here is 48, anything over that is entitled to overtime pay (excepting certain classes of employee). The average starting salary for that is a touch over £24,000 (plus benefits, in some cases) so the OP is expecting people to work longer for less. Of course, we also have a minimum wage that works out at slightly over $11 an hour and the NHS so we don't have to pay medical insurance out of that.

The problem here is that, between generations of slash-and-burn capitalism and "in my day" nostalgia (rose-coloured, as nostalgia always is), US employers have grown to feel entitled to employ Einstein at Nobby Nobody wages. Back in the Sixties, it was possible to live on an entry-level jobs wages. Not in luxury but in a reasonable way. Since then, productivity has shot up by 30-60% in most sectors but real wages have dropped by about 14% (more in some sectors. In auto manufacture, they've dropped like a stone) so most people are having to work two or even three jobs to get by.

[Sanctified]

19. Seems to be not an issue with entitlement but an issue with your pay.

Since you have not found someone to do the job yet you should look at what the market is currently paying. I have a friend in NC who is making over $80,000 right out of college doing programming and is only working a 40 hour work week.

[Progressive_In_NC]

54. Some of the larger corporations do offer that,

A small shop around here would be in the 45-55 range to start out (with some benefits and no bonuses), and if you have a year or two of experience they'll go 65-80ish.

I can go up to 60K on this, and with benefits and bonuses it'll be around 80K after total costs of employment are figured in.

We will pay up to 85 for someone with two years experience, and that's what these guys will make once they are out of the training program.

[jaybeat]

166. So, if your offer is in line w/others, maybe it's not the $$

If you're making offers and candidates you want are turning you down, you're not offering enough, of *something*. If you get to pick from a huge field of great candidates, and when you do they fall over themselves to accept your offer, then you're offering a lot, you've got a sweet company and everyone knows it, or both!

In my case, many employers find it hard to justify hiring someone with 15 years of experience, when they can find someone with 3 or 4 years of experience whom they can pay half as much, but who will produce (in raw, tangible output) much more than half of what I will.

The fact that I know what the f*** I'm doing is often seen as a negative, not a plus--the egomaniacs who often own or run small businesses (big fish in a small pond syndrome--they'd never last a minute in a large company surrounded by other talented people) want someone "impressionable" whom they can tell what to do and who doesn't have the experience to question. Even highly skilled jobs are now being treated as "worker bees"--shut up and produce more. Principle's and owners' compensation has gone through the roof, while I'm making the same I made in 2000 (actual dollars, not inflation adjusted) AND there are fewer and fewer jobs at my level. (More and more "entry" jobs--same responsibilities and expectations, just crappy pay and working conditions.)

They can get away with it because, contrary to your experience, younger folks I've talked to *can't* wait for the right job, because they have too much debt. They also can't afford to piss off their boss, no matter how arbitrary, clueless or asinine they are. So they suck up and move on as soon as something better comes along, telling the truth to their friends about their last job, which only helps that company sink further and further into the crap. But, somehow, they still manage to find clients who will pay them way more than they are worth, so they can continue to drive fancy cars and pay their employees crap. And that's true, I think in large part, because corporate America is making *so* much money, that they really, truly, don't have to care too much about what they spend.

And we all know why that is, now don't we, class? :grr:

[fasttense]

20. What with the debt most kids accumulate in college

not to mention they frequently go without medical coverage until they get their first good job, they probably expected to be able to pay back their loans and medical debts in a couple years. So they ask for more in the hopes of paying off their debt. They have to realize that they will be lucky if they pay it back in 10 years.

Do you offer good benefits? The cost of medical insurance can easily add $10,000 to a salary not offering benefits.

Come to East Tennessee. The average wage here is $7/hr. I'm sure you could find some college kids in TN who don't expect $50,000 a year their first job out of college.

[evilbeth]

46. Exactly

I am in East Tennessee. I am 18 credits from my degree (can't afford to go back) but I have almost 10 years in managerial experience and I don't make $30K after being with my company (medical) for 10 years and working 50 hour work weeks.

[KansDem]

58. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

And thanks for your perspective. It helps the rest of us understand the whole picture.

[TornadoTN]

53. East Tennessean here, I echo the sentiment

Very odd job market here because salaries - even for college educated, skilled workers - are extremely low. Granted, the cost of living is relatively lower, but not that much lower. Businesses are coming here because of that reason - they can get educated or skilled workers at a fraction of the cost of what they would pay elsewhere. They know the people have to work and they can't be picky about choosing jobs. I have a friend who holds a business degree who recently was laid off from his well-paying job in logistics & supply chain management only to take another position elswhere for a fraction of his previous pay doing the same thing with more responsibility.

I recently started my own consulting business on the side of my day job. I draw a nice salary in my regular job in comparison locally, but once I go anywhere outside of the area I get pretty sickened by the disparity in salary. If my wife wasn't so entrenched in her position in the education field, I would relocate.


It's all about value and ROI for the company. However, things have changed in the past 10 years that we are seeing employees and job seekers evaluate their own skill-set and attach value to their knowledge, free-time, etc. That's a good thing and will drive for changes in the corporate system of approaching compensation.

[NashVegas]

21. How Much Did Those College Educations Cost Them?

10k a year? 20k? 40?

Next throw in the insecurity with outsourcing.

If I had that much debt hanging over my head, I'd be terrified to commit to a company where I could end up sliding backwards in my chosen career and haven't enough 'fuck you money' to get out or a decent parachute.

[Naturyl]

23. You want to make as much money as you can

And so do they. Can one really be surprised at this? When one buys into a culture of money, they are in constant competition against everyone else.

[Blue_Tires]

28. wow...i'm in the wrong field

been out of college for 9 years, and the most i've ever made was less than half of your interviewees' LOWEST salary request!!:banghead:

[Zywiec]

33. What was your major? n/t

[Blue_Tires]

41. lol

BA in English, MS in Journalism (a field which jobs are drying up and I no longer work in)

should tell you all you need to know

[earth mom]

32. Why not hire someone older? I think you are being biased here. nt

[Progressive_In_NC]

48. This is a new training program we are trying out

We have hired 30 new folks with various rates of experience this year at various skill levels.

New folks out of college cannot do the work our company does no matter how good they are at programming. It's just too hard to navigate as a consultant in a corp where your every move is scrutinized. Normally, we don't look at anyone without 5 years experience and the starting pay is good.

But we are facing a worker shortage and we want to "grow our own" so to speak.

[raccoon]

49. Oh, employers aren't going to do that!

Younger people are better looking.

Older people expect more money. They'll have more medical claims and drive up the cost of the employer's group insurance.

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[supernova]

35. Has your company done research on what the going rate is?

I mean recent research, within the past six months.

And I know of one Top 5 corp in RTP that deliberately underpays people what their skills are worth by as much as 15 - 20%. Over a lifetime, that's a lot of lost wages for someone who didn't know any better. And the company gets away with it.

[blondeatlast]

37. Entitlement? Looks as though your company may feel a sense of entitlement to pay less

than the going rate.

No pity from me.

[mondo joe]

72. You got it. If they were tryuly paying at market they wouldn't be over a barrel. NT

[backscatter712]

38. The tech job market can be very capricious.

In the aftermath of the dot-bomb crash, I ended up unemployed for a few years. Had to work some call center jobs to make ends meet.

I personally took an unpaid internship to put something good on my resume, while working full time at the call center to make ends meet.

For me, that paid off - now I'm back in the business, working for a decent salary as a software engineer at a startup.

[Zywiec]

39. Hire someone immediately billable - problem solved. n/t

[NeedleCast]

51. Pretty much the same in DC area

In white collar tech fields here in DC its often the same way. First year (or no experience) salary level for the field I work in is about 50K as well. Salary range at my pay-grade under our company structure is 45K to 65K. After three years I'm a little higher than the middle of that range. The people we interview often say things like "Well, my friend has a similar job and said I should ask for 65 to 70." What they fail to realize is that said friend has 10 years of experience to their zero. First year or no experience shouldn't expect to make the industry average in a given field.

[Progressive_In_NC]

62. We interviewed a guy from DC for an experienced position

He told me that he was making 65K setting up Sharepoint for a firm. He had two years experience and was extremely nice. We offered him 85K plus a relo package to NC. He told me his "friend" had gotten a job making 125K and he was worth about 120K.

His "friend" had 18 years experience and was a SharePoint Architect and not a developer. Interesting how some people do view the job market.

[NeedleCast]

111. Yup, Same Problem We Often Face

My background was in imagery intelligence from the Army so I came into the industry carrying one of the most marketable things in my field, a top secret security clearance. While still in the army, we heard these glowing stories of imagery analysts getting out and making 120+ a year. Problem was those were stories that generally involved flag level officers with 20+ years in the intel community, not an E-4/E-5 with four years expereience. A lot of people I know spent several months looking for jobs and pricing themselves way outside the market for their experience level.

At the same time, I can see the point of those on the other side of the argument. My first job post-military was with Lockheed and they basically asked me to lowball myself. I believe the exact quote from the recruiter was "Okay, so what's the minimum you would take to do this job..."

[leftofthedial]

52. I can't even get a frigging interview . . .

DO NOT look for a job if you're over 45.

[supernova]

66. Don't tell me that!

:scared:

[liberalhistorian]

87. Me either, since I just turned 43

and my husband will be 54 next month! :scared:

OTOH, a possibility is starting your own business or buying one. That way, you aren't subject to the whims of an employer. Of course, you have to work twice as hard, but it does pay off.

[supernova]

90. I am 45, starting my own business

is appealing for exactly the reasons you state.

[TahitiNut]

115. Tell me about it ... over 2,000 resumes later.

When you're over 55, it's grim. REALLY grim.

[leftofthedial]

164. there oughtta be a law!

oh wait. there is. everyone just ignores it.

[Javaman]

61. I think it maybe the cause and effect tsunami that is now crashing

onto the economy.

These grads were probably pumped up by their various professors into thinking that was what the market was offering. Maybe. But if true, the economy tanking hasn't really seeped into the brains of these people yet.

Denial is a very powerful psychological tool that many grads use to justify their worth.

No one has explained to them the concept of entry level jobs.

Entitlement, maybe, reinforcing a stupid fantasy societal perspective, likely.

Also, the other very detrimental concept that everyone is special and they can be anything they want, even over priced worker bees. lol

[gollygee]

63. The law of supply and demand

if you can't find someone at the wage you're offering, it's too low. If it weren't too low, *someone* would be willing to take the job.

[JuniperLea]

65. I had a subordinate state that she wanted us to be on a level playing field...

That she wanted to make her own decisions on what her work would entail, and she routinely rolled her eyes if I caught errors in her work and sent it back for corrections! Thankfully, she quit within the first month, saving me the trouble. But she was such a "team player" during the interview, and was incredibly detail oriented... sure.

By the same token, I have three young people in the same age group who are working their asses off and doing spectacular work!

I don't get the entitlement deal... mommy and daddy aren't here to pat you on the head every three minutes and tell you how precious and perfect and wonderful you are, and I'm not a bad person/boss because I try to coerce you into doing good work!

You can't teach work ethic. I think it comes from watching your parents get up and go to work every day, even when they are sick or would rather take the time off, instead of using up all their sick time within the first month of employment!

[mondo joe]

71. While I agree there are people with a false sense of entitlement - and rather

many of them at that - I think negotiating for salary and walking away from a deal you don't like is a reasonable thing to do.

I've worked with people who after being hired THEN decided they didn't like the salary structure, or decided they deserved certain promotions just because they were there. That, to me, is a false sense of entitlement.

But negotiating a salary and refusing to take a position that doesn't pay what you think you want is a whole different ball game. In such a scenario everyone is acting responsibly for their own interests and isn't claiming entitlement.

[JuniperLea]

96. I agree

And there are no wrong or right people in this scenario, but people who are feeling their way through a process. If an employer has a position open for a long time and there are no takers, they need to adjust the job or salary. If a prospective employee turns down job after job, they are either going to find the job and salary they want, or learn their expectations are not based in reality.

That being said, my position in Los Angeles pays a great deal more than a like position in Council Bluffs, Iowa... if there is a like position. But if you look at the bottom of the totem pole, at a receptionist position, you might find a job in LA paying $47k, and another reception job elsewhere in the country for $20k. I think salaries are regional, for the most part.

[mondo joe]

99. One of the worst "entitled" cases I ever worked with was a guy who had

VERY little experience and, arguably, even less skills in the job he was hired for. He was often inappropriate and repeatedly made mistakes that simply should not have been made. But he looked around at others who worked with more autonomy and decided he was being held back because of some personal animosity. His attitude just got worse and worse, and it was painful to deal with him.

Unfortunately, I think he really just couldn't see the difference in his performance from that of other people.

[JuniperLea]

105. I had a very similar experience recently...

No sense of their own inadequacy, or of the dues others had paid to get where they are.

[newportdadde]

75. "A consultant is someone who takes your watch and tells you what time it is."

[madinmaryland]

94. Nice watch, and it is 1:12pm EST!

:rofl:

[Radical Activist]

81. Given the nature of the economy

I can understand why someone would pass on a job that only promised to pay more down the road. You never know when the job is going to be outsourced or downsized. Why would you expect any young person to trust promises of future compensation in the world we live in today? The ideas of owing a company loyalty and trust are antiquated.

[Dora]

85. Are these MBAs or BBAs?

I worked in a fairly prestigious business school for a period of time, in a #1 ranked undergraduate Accounting program. Our MBAs were - by and large - insufferable assholes. Some of this trickled down to the undergraduates. Institutional culture trickle-down, I guess.

I would say that easily 75% of the students (undergrads) I encountered wanted results without work - to be registered for classes without seeing the advisor, to take the certification exam without filling out the application, to get into the program without completing their prerequisite courses. It was mind-boggling how many times I had to hand a student something and say, "Read this, and follow the instructions. Ask me if you have questions." I had a student adamantly refuse to read something, and I laughed at her.

I think that some graduates have the notion that the paycheck is the reward for their 3-5 years of work in school. It takes some time to understand that it's not the paycheck that's the reward for going to college, but the opportunity of the job that's the reward. The paycheck is the reward that comes for making the most of the opportunity and doing the job well.

[liberalhistorian]

89. LOL, every single boss I've ever had who's

been an MBA has been an "insufferable asshole", as you call them. Every. single. one.

[Dora]

91. It's the first thought that enters my mind whenever I consider getting my own MBA.

I'm insufferable enough already. Why mess with perfection?

[YOY]

118. Hey thanks!

It's nice to be stereotyped for getting a degree that lets me balance financial budgets!

[BlueIris]

88. Holy crap. Warped and unrealistic expectations much? I'm sorry you have to deal with those

clueless fuckwits.

[Lex]

92. I'd expect they know what the market is

or they wouldn't be asking for those terms.

[WinkyDink]

109. Have they suspected yet that nobody has met their demands?

[Lex]

117. It sounds like they are in the early stages

so aren't worried about it. If they were, they'd snatch up the offer.

[Extend a Hand]

93. Maybe it's because of the nature of the work?

Most programmers I know don't like to work for consulting firms (unless they own them)

Consultants get stuck in the worst cubes with the worst work and get treated like crap a lot of places
Programmers with consulting firms are constantly under pressure to move since the consulting firms hate paying to have someone "on the beach"

At least that's how it seems to work around here.

[Seabiscuit]

97. Understand what you mean

My wife until some years ago worked for a financial investment firm as a management/analyst recruiter because most of these firms hire from top schools in the country and abroad she sees the same thing as well, especially with Ivy League schools. Now we are talking graduates that have masters degrees. They see some of their peers starting at enormous salaries with sign on bonuses that they want too. I think the schools as well are giving these kids the idea of a sense of entitlement because she says a lot of these kids come into the business with big heads, smart ass comments and aren't willing to work as hard. Funny enough, she mentioned that she can tell which school a kid has gone to by their manner in which they present themselves at the interviews. She says, the best kids with better adjusted personalities and humility have usually been from Princeton, U.C. Berkeley, Stanford, some B schools and foreign schools like Insead and London school of Economics. Good luck, I've heard this same frustration from my wife many times.

[Forrest Greene]

98. How Much

...does your CEO make? How "entitled" does he or she feel about that?

Whose obscene financial intransigence created the template those applying for the position are using in their negotiations?

How dare they have the same attitude toward your company that your company will have toward them after it hires them?

Well, the attitude it will have until it offshore outsources their jobs, that is.

The servants are just so uppity these days.

[kineneb]

101. will work for $20K/yr and full health benefits

Have BA in Music, w/minors in Medieval Studies and German; grad studies in Music History ("ABT"). Linux computer geek; managed Farmers Market for 12 yrs. Creative and brilliant but prone to depressive episodes.

Job must be low stress, without deadlines.

...otherwise, I continue with plan "A", applying for mental health disability and hoping I get SSI (under $800/mo) and Medicaid to cover meds.

sigh.

[cgrindley]

102. Sounds like they don't want a rapelationship with your firm

six figures after 6 years is horseshit. What sort of college graduate would want to work for that?

Sounds like the going rate in your area for that job is $72k.

[taught_me_patience]

103. It works both ways

Its lame when an employer asks for 5+ years experience MBA preferred for a job that is 70k. WTF!?!? Sorry, I haven't dropped 80k on an education to make 70k/yr.

[liberalhistorian]

126. I'm a college graduate in my forties who's never made

anywhere approaching 70k a year, I'd kill for half of that! My parents were caring teachers who worked very, very hard for forty years and who made major differences in the lives of hundreds of kids, and they never came close to half of that!!!!! And my stepdad had an MA. Sorry, but I'll take the importance of a teacher any old day over a fucking MBA, my parents and others like them deserved it so much more. Why should they make any more than teachers, fire/police officers, social workers, etc., whose work is, frankly, a lot more important a lot of the time.

[mondo joe]

142. Why should they make more than teachers or social workers? Easy:

Because they are earning money for their employer and they should get the maximum amount that they can from the revenue they earn.

Should the woman with the MBA who earns a half million dollars a year take a lesser salary so her employer can pocket MORE of what she brought in?

[CK_John]

104. Good for the kids they have cracked the code of debt. You need to check your firm online

and I'll think you'll find they have a site saying your a sweatshop and a pushover, IMO. They probably text message everyone who works for you and you don't even know it. We have underestimate these kids, they are like super private eyes and have the a better grapevine than any watercooler gossip group could ever image.

Also you(your firm) will cave and you know it or else you would not be here lamenting your situation. Also, you better be ready for there work habits when they start or you will go nuts. I hope you don't think they will hang around for 60 hours a week, unless you provide some very interesting work problems, like designing 3D HD game videos.

They really just show us how stupid we were to buy into the corporate meme.

[Progressive_In_NC]

120. My firm will just drop the program and let somebody else train these guys on their dime

We will hire experience folks and control our growth. The firm I work for has been named best place to work in IT consulting in three different cities. We have experience folks knocking down the door to get in. I guess that's why I don't understand it.

Steven

[CK_John]

123. Sounds like you caved and you are really just a jobber looking for bodies to place, not a real firm

developing a product or anything.

[Progressive_In_NC]

125. Nope we do project work

Our main competitors are big 5 consulting firms, not body shops. We have never been able to hire college kids and train them due to our relatively small size (until now) and this is the first pass at it. We will pay 100K for somebody with 8 years experience and did that about 30 times last year, and we'll continue to do it.

We don't develop products to sell we consult, and we're good at it.

Now I'm going to finish my yard work on my day off :).

[Corgigal]

130. My daughter graduated with

an Computer Information Degree and couldn't find a job anywhere in S.C. that paid a living wage. She is now back in school to become a nurse. Where were you a few years ago? Darn.

[jmowreader]

171. Well, that's no surprise

The CIS degree is essentially an MCSE with a university's name at the top of it, and a university education price tag.

[leeroysphitz]

107. Yeah. Ungrateful so and so's... How DARE they hold out for a living wage?

and reasonable benefits. What's this world coming to?

[WinkyDink]

110. $50,000 isn't a "living wage"?

[YOY]

116. Depends on where you live

Cost of Living is different in CA, NYC, and DC compared to say...Nebraska.

[WinkyDink]

159. I believe the OP is in North Carolina.

[leeroysphitz]

133. Not the way it used to be.

That's around how much I make and if my SO wasn't working I could'nt begin to think of how we'd make it on a single income and this after 25 years in the work force.

If these applicants think the skills and DEBT they've accrued in college merit a higher wage then they SHOULD hold out. Greedy employers who only care about how much money goes into their OWN pocket should not get to call all the shots.

[Maine-ah]

138. up here it sure as hell is.

our combined income was 50k, and we had no problem making bills, and lived comfortably. Now, I stay at home, and we really miss that 25k I was making.

[Dora]

151. I, and just about everyone I know, would sign up for that. nt

[liberalhistorian]

129. I'm sorry, but my parents, both hard-working teachers,

would have killed for 50k, which they never made in over forty years of hard, caring work. I'm a college graduate who's never come close to that amount in twenty years. These kids are just being greedy and selfish and have no fucking clue what a REAL "living wage" is. They need to get in the real goddamn world for once.

[Touchdown]

132. Oh but they do know the real world. They know Europe

They know that kids their age get free healthcare for life, 5 weeks paid vacation, all the sick time they need (no limits)...all for just working in a record store, much less a highly skilled tech job. It's us Americans who think that we deserve to be treated like shit that don't live in the real goddamn world.

2 weeks vacation when the CEO takes home millions? Fuck that!

[leeroysphitz]

134. Many of these kids are leaving school with tens of thousands of DEBT.

So in essence they are already strapped with one mortgage before they can even begin to think about making a life. How's that for the "real world"?

[liberalhistorian]

135. My parents left school with a lot of debt, especially

my dad and stepdad; their families couldn't afford college for them. They never made close to that amount of money demanded by these fresh-off-the-bus kids, and yet they still managed somehow. They had to pay their dues like everyone else, so should these kids.

[leeroysphitz]

140. Did 50k mean the same then as it does now? No. Clearly not. nt

[gollygee]

136. Oh yeah, because teachers don't graduate with any student loans, right?

:sarcasm:

[leeroysphitz]

141. When did I mention teachers? Oh yeah. I didn't nt

[liberalhistorian]

145. You might try mentioning them, because the starting salary

for teachers is usually considerably below 50k, WAY below. In fact, most teachers don't make anywhere near that kind of money for many, many years, even those with master's degrees. My stepdad never did, even with an MA, and my mom never came close to that. And she worked harder than an awful lot of business and computer people and, frankly, deserved it a lot more As do fire/police officers, social workers, etc., etc. They don't get anywhere near 50k as a starting salary or, quite often, even after many years of hard work. Here in SD, the starting salary for teachers is between 22-28k. And it's not much more than that in many areas. And they quite often have just as much debt as other students. I'm a college grad who's never made anywhere near that amount. And they don't consider it a decent beginning wage? Fuck that. So cry me a fucking river, will ya.

[leeroysphitz]

155. So all professions should have starting salaries limited to that of teachers.

Or those going into those professions shall be considered spoiled cry babies. Ok got it. thanks for the heads up.

[Touchdown]

158. Your salaries are subject to democracy.

Get the word out, yell enough, and the people will respond with better salaries through democratic means. I support a VERY large hike in teacher wages.

These IT grads are going into the private sector. BIG DIFFERENCE. They are subject to the whims and "labor markets" of corporations and businesses that are accountable to nobody. The only thing they listen to is the bargain.

[gollygee]

146. You responded to someone who said that teachers don't make that much after 40 years

but saying yeah but these kids are in DEBT. Which seems to indicate you are unaware that kids graduating with degrees in education are also in DEBT. But no one is paying them $50k.

[leeroysphitz]

156. Still it makes no sense to label those who chose a different vocation as "cry babies"

even if they chose their vocation strictly based on marketability. The debt they acquire is an investment. People look for different returns on that investment. Obviously somebody who chose a profession in teaching as the return wasn't thinking solely about money (which is a fine thing!) but many people expect to be compensated adequately for their skills and I'm sorry but 60k starting falls into the range of adequate compensation for most college graduates.


Edited for typo.

[gollygee]

167. I agree with you there

and if they have been having so much trouble finding a candidate, that would seem to be a pretty good indication that they aren't offering enough. Though my husband works in IT and he says they offer 40k to 50k for fresh-out-of-college folks and they don't have any problem filling the positions. But then we're in Michigan and this area is in really bad shape, job-wise.

I'm the daughter of public school teachers and feel a strong need to respond when I see teacher salaries mentioned. :D

[mondo joe]

143. That was your parents' choice. It wasn't the choice of these young people.

I work with non profits but it means that I make less than comparable work in the private sector. Consider it the "mission discount".

But I made that choice and I don't blame others for choosing to work in ways that are more profitable for them.

[WinkyDink]

161. Fine. Then "these young people" can stay unhired. THEIR choice.

[mondo joe]

162. I couldn't agree more.

As I've said repeatedly, this is just establishing the market wage for their work. They'll get what they want, if it's worth it to the employer, or they won't if it's not.

[WinkyDink]

108. They should have to teach public school.

[Ellen Forradalom]

112. I'll take it

:-) I'm 44 and I don't understand it either. NC can't be anywhere near as expensive as CA.

I feel I do pretty well in my view. I make the kind of salary your potential entry level people are demanding. While I'm experienced, I can leave at 5:00, pick up my son, start him on his homework, take him to Cub Scouts and so forth. I can only do so much with my day ya know.

[Clark2008]

113. Just a note for everyone on this thread.

$50,000 is like $100,000 in a big city. It's a beautiful wage in North Carolina, so anyone knocking it, doesn't realize the low cost of living in the South.

FYI.

[underpants]

119. I blame Edwards

:hi:

[Touchdown]

121. It's not about where they work, but what they're worth

If they're balking at it, then it isn't enough. Simple labor supply/demand economics. This firm in question is short changing their prospects.

Also, the only time they have any negotiation power is before they're hired. Once they are in and completely beholden to the company, then they have to take what they're given, or take a walk...in some companies that's more akin to "Break these rocks with this broken pick-axe or be shot in the back of the head.", especially if the worker is in debt, which employers freely admit they love. This supposed guarantee of 6 figures could be renegged upon at any time for "needs of the business". Once in, labor (especially non-union labor) is powerless.

[YOY]

114. You are aware that those college loans are incredible now.

Adjustable rates hit them too. Entitlement in my case meant keeping afloat from debt thanks to me wanting a higher education and the only loans available being adjustible rates...you'd be surprised how painful 30,000 can be when stretched to a limit with a high interest rate.

and 70 hours a week...JESUS F*** that! I do 50 and f*** anyone who wants me to do more by whining how they think "I'm lazy."

[leeroysphitz]

160. Not to be argumentative but I just have to ask how many qualified "older" workers

have you looked at? Or does your company avoid hiring older workers?

Could the resume of a highly skilled 35 year old, 45 year old or even (god forbid) a 55 year old even get a second look? If not isn't it because your company is scared to death of actually having to properly COMPENSATE a skilled experienced worker who may have a family?

Isn't the whole point of trolling the college grads to get employees as dirt cheap as possible?

If that's the case then I have very little sympathy for your firm if todays current crop of heavily indebted grads are holding out for a decent salary.

They better get what they can now because it only gets harder once the downsizing and off shoring start!

[Ignis]

122. LOL! And this is in NC?

Tell them to move out here to San Francisco if they want to demand those starting wages...and then they can see most of them vanish in cost-of-living expenses.

:hi:

[supernova]

137. To be fair

The Triangle area is one of the most expensive areas in the SE. Only Atlanta and DC cost more.

[Progressive_In_NC]

124. Salary comparison for different parts of the country -- 129K in NYC

From -- http://cgi.money.cnn.com/tools/costofliving/costofliving.html

==================================================
Salary in Raleigh NC:
$60,000
Comparable salary in New York (Manhattan) NY:
$129,117.71

If you move from Raleigh NC to New York (Manhattan) NY...

Groceries will cost: 45.154% more
Housing will cost: 342.397% more
Utilities will cost: 52.043% more
Transportation will cost: 18.65% more
Healthcare will cost: 19.188% more
===================================================

Salary in Raleigh NC:
$60,000
Comparable salary in Chicago IL:
$70,780.57
====================================================

Salary in Raleigh NC:
$60,000
Comparable salary in Boston MA:
$84,942.91

======================================================

Salary in Raleigh NC:
$60,000
Comparable salary in Oakland CA:
$91,052.52

=======================================================

Salary in Raleigh NC:
$60,000
Comparable salary in San Francisco CA:
$106,566.33

[DaveJ]

131. I agree with you, but I think this is why

By having graduated from college they feel entitled to finally get paid for the work they do. Granted, they have no literally earned anything in the business world, but they don't necessarily understand the full weight of what that means, having been focused on education for the past 4 or so years.

I would give them a break, and/or possibly consider recruiting people other than recent grads. Up until recently, I would have been thrilled to have been interviewed for a position like that, but it doesn't sound like I would have even been ask in....

[NeedleCast]

152. Wow!

Groceries will cost: 45.154% more
Housing will cost: 342.397% more
Utilities will cost: 52.043% more
Transportation will cost: 18.65% more
Healthcare will cost: 19.188% more

I knew NYC was bad, but didn't know it was that bad...

[mnhtnbb]

127. Just sent you a PM

[WolverineDG]

128. I hear ya

We have young folks coming in & demanding to be made management with only 2 years' experience or they walk. I say let the crybabies walk.

dg

[spooky3]

147. Do a pay survey or ask the university recruiting center

to give you the range of accepted salaries, bonuses and benefits for comparable jobs. Ask if they will tell you the names of the companies hiring.

Did you ask any of the interviewees if they would tell you ALL of the reasons why they turned down your offers? Maybe there is more to it than pay and benefits.

I know that one of the "prestigious" consulting firms (not in IT) in my area pays substantially less than what competitors are offering. They cannot understand why graduates turn them down, but they don't seem to realize that they are at least 20% away from their competitors, with nothing else to offer (such as more rapid progression, more interesting work, etc.) to make up for it. The only way to know whether this is true in your case is to know your competition. And don't rely on the web; pay data there are all over the place with regard to quality.

Maybe you can't afford college graduates and the job really doesn't require it, if you honestly believe recent grads contribute no value for two entire years. Having a relevant degree often means you'll learn the job more quickly than someone without one, so you should require much less training and may be productive more quickly. But if this isn't true in your case, then maybe insisting on a degree is costing you more than it is worth.

[rAVES]

150. If I'm going to sign a large potion of my life over to somebody, I expect to adequetly compensated

Thankfully thats something I dont have to worry about.

btw, what is the average cost of the college degree's that these people had to pay? and what did yours cost?

[rAVES]

153. I wonder what generation is most responcible for the decline in the middle class and

the rampant corporate greed going about these days.. just a thought.

[arikara]

154. I don't blame them

if the expectation is to work 60 hr weeks. That expectation of extra time for no extra pay is exactly why I got out of tech. I just despised that bullshit.

[Geek_Girl]

165. I'm in the Tech field with just an AA

I have 7 years experience and I make a higher salay then what you have listed and I live in a very low cost area. I think tech jobs costs are going up and the students are seeing rates on Dice.com for $70.00+/hour.

[Patsy Stone]

168. There was a cover story in Time or Newsweek

maybe last summer called "So you think you can manage us?" or something like that. It was all about the new crop of college graduates and the issues employers were facing because of their attitudes.

I wish I could find it for you.

[mudesi]

169. So don't hire them. Sounds like YOU have the problem, not them

Apparently they don't have to work for your company. Who is the one with a "sense of entitlement" here?

[sendero]

172. I think...

.. these things sorta even themselves out. If these kids truly are asking for more than they are worth, they won't get a job and they will eventually lower their expectations. The kind of work I'm betting they will do for you is no picnic, and the less picnic, the more pay.

I've been a programmer for 23 years. Thanks to the dot-com bust (I didn't do web stuff but telecom here in Dallas took a nosedive and it severely affected my livelihood), I now make about two-thirds the money I made in 1991 in inflation adjusted dollars.

The work I do is very difficult, but I never put in long hours and never have. Most programmers who do are just adding more bugs to their code every night and taking until noon the next day to fix them, not really a productive cycle.

In the leadup to the dot-com bust, the ranks of programmers were swelled with all kinds of self-taught mediocre talents who were able to get jobs because employers were desperate. The bust has weeded these most of these folks out, but salaries are not ever likely to be what they once were.

Tech work is demanding and there is often little stability in it. Your job can be sent to India on a moment's notice. You are expected to fix crap written by bozos, and expected to meet schedules that were yanked whole from some salesman's ass. If I were starting out, I would seek the best deal possible also.