No Sale.

[Mythsaje]

You can't sell peace to war profiteers. Can't do it. They won't buy. You can't sell the truth to habitual liars. They're not interested. You can't sell election reform to those who get what they want with the system in place as it is now. It's just not possible.

You can't sell fair play to a cheater. If they can't guarantee a win, they won't play.

You can't sell equal rights and equal access to a bigot. All the sincerity and all the honesty in the world doesn't matter.

You can't sell reproductive choice and freedom to people who think they have a "God-Given" right to dictate their conscience to other people. It's just not happening.

You can't sell equal justice to those who exist and thrive by pushing injustice.

You can't sell alternative energy to the oil companies, or universal healthcare to the insurance companies. They have no reason to buy it and every reason to oppose it.

You can't sell liberalism to those who've sworn to destroy us. There's no common ground between those who believe in serving all of us and those who have dedicated themselves to serving only a small group of the powerful elite.

It's just not possible. How can we hope to gain ground when they believe EVERYTHING we stand for is simply wrong? When people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter, and a host of others spend every waking moment trying to think of new ways of marginalizing our message? When powerful and wealthy religious leaders call us evil and those we support "demon-possessed?"

I'm trying to figure out precisely how we're supposed to make peace, how to attain "bi-partisanship" without giving up everything for which we stand.

I know there are those who believe that, somehow, against all evidence to the contrary, there is common ground to be found. We already know we don't see things the same way, that the mechanics of our brains are totally different. So many of them are trapped in an either/or, black/white, right/wrong dichotomy that our perspective might as well be that of a completely alien species to them.

There might actually BE common ground, but I'm not sure how we can find it. We believe peace is possible, they believe it's not. We believe that there's value in a world where everyone can prosper, they believe that prospering is a "God-Given" boon and any failure to do so is proof of God's disfavor or, at best, evidence of a lack of moral character.

What common ground we may have is buried under six inches of swamp water infested with venomous snakes. How long can we afford to stand there waiting for them to meet us there without risking a multitude of snake bites in the meantime?

Yes, there IS the possibility of reaching out to those who have been misguided into thinking that the Republican Party has their interests at heart. But how do we do so when they control nearly every avenue for making that reach?

"Blind taste tests" reveal that a vast majority of Americans actually support progressive goals. Yet somehow in the midst of the so-called "culture war" we can't seem to make the connection between what they say they want and how we can bring it into being.

It's not the middle-of-the-road, triangulated, corporate-friendly centrism that speaks to them. It's far more progressive than that. Yet when we come to do battle with the other side, we don't seem to be able to speak to the attitudes we share. We hide it away, and allow the Republicans, and the complicit corporate media, to define who we are and what we want America to be. We don't strive to define ourselves, and marginalize those with the courage to do so.

And wonder why the collective response of all too many Americans turns out to be "No Sale."

[AX10]

1. K/R

[Swamp Rat]

2. Never make deals with fascists.

[Rex]

4. Free Speech Zones.

That looks like Cheney's elite guard.

[Swamp Rat]

6. Those creatures visited us in New Orleans.

They'll be coming to a neighborhood near you one day... if you do not obey (H.R. 1955).

[Rex]

7. Come now, everyone will get a nice jumpsuit, pair of googles, ear plugs.

Nice red hat, gloves. We will make you be happy.

[Swamp Rat]

10. You forgot the freebies like ravenous mosquitoes with malaria and free water-boarding.

If yer lucky, you'll get a posh cement mattress, chock full of mineral-rich gravel. Whoopee! :woohoo:

[Rex]

13. As long as I don't have to room with Patler.

He could write about his shitty ideas while stuck in detention.

[Jim Sagle]

3. You've got a firm grip on reality.

Unfortunately you can't sell reality to an Obamabozo. You can't even give it away.

[motocicleta]

8. Are you sure you meant to post in this thread?

Your reply seems directed to someplace else. 'Obamabozo'? How does that relate to the Hon. Mythsaje's OP?

:shrug:

[liberalhistorian]

35. And what reality is that? The fact that he's gotten

major endorsements, and far more than the others? The fact that he's running neck and neck with Queen I'm Entitled to the Presidency Damnit! herself? LOL. Talk about not being in reality. Oh, and I'm not a "bozo", btw. I wonder how you'd like being called a "Hill-bot".

[Jim Sagle]

44. I'd laff my ass off.

[K Gardner]

5. Beautiful, Mythsage, thank you ! K&R

[TomInTib]

9. Killer, Saje. I wonder how this will play...

with the eunuchs over in pencildickville.com?

KnR

Tom

[Mythsaje]

12. Abject confusion, nasty irrational commentary, and inane mockery.

Hell, I don't even have to visit to know THAT.

LOL

[TomInTib]

14. You can hear Miss Molly rockin'....

at the House of Blue Lights...

She would have loved that one, Saje.

I just know it.

Tom

[Yuugal]

11. K&R nt

[ProSense]

15. Action on a progressive agenda trumps no sale:

Some people might read the Nunn statement and think it sounds like Barack Obama. But whereas Obama pledges to reach across partisan lines, and outside them as well, to build support for a progressive agenda, he's not talking about abandoning his party and sharing power directly with people who don't share his (or Nunn's) assessment of the challenges facing America, and who would oppose any progressive agenda with every political weapon available. Best I can tell, Obama's offering an extended hand to the GOP that he's willing to make into a fist. And his argument with some in the Democratic Party, most notably John Edwards, over how to enact progressive policies, mainly reflects differences of opinion on how to marshal public opinion to reverse most of the GOP policies of the Bush era.

Action: here, here and here.

[Blue_In_AK]

16. Wonderful!

:applause:

[TreasonousBastard]

17. You have identified the problem, but...

what is the solution?

And this isn't the first time that's been asked.

Should you check out my long-ignored blog there, you'll see some answers in the first post way down there.

One thing I'll add to that is that we have had too much of a history of preaching "liberal guilt." We moan and groan about what's wrong, and what has to be done. The other side has a much more agreeable sales pitch-- don't do anything except what feels good, and everything will work out for the best.

Another thing I'll mention is that there's no "peace industry." We're all volunteers, and too many incomes are tied into war. With defense and security budgets totalling at least a trillion a year, few people aren't benefitting, at least indirectly.

What to do? It ain't easy, but we must come up with alternatives and learn some serious sales and marketing skills. We gotta make our way the "easy" ansd preferred way. Worried about global warming? Find a way to sell people on energy efficieny. You don't sell them by arguing science or making them sacrifice-- you sell them on how great it's gonna feel in that tiny car that's so cute and easy to park, just like the car companies sell them stuff.

Dealing with the other side is not compromise and looking for common ground with their leaders and apologists-- it's the fight for the minds who are listening to their message. It would be nice if Limbaugh kissed my ass and begged me for forgiveness for his being an asshole, but that's never going to happen. What I can do is counter his pitch to his listeners with a pitch of my own. It's his audience, not him, where the prize is.

And our pitch has to be a damn good one. So far it hasn't been good enough.

[Mythsaje]

19. Right. It damn well better be a good one.

And it hasn't been.

Sadly, most of the most fuel efficient cars have all the visual appeal of a cinder block on wheels. In short, they're UGLY. An accident? Not bloody likely.

My complaint is that they're dominating the dialogue and we've let them. Now they more or less own the media, and it's just gotten worse. THEY define what liberals are and what we believe and we keep walking into sucker punches every time we turn around.

The likes of Limbaugh aren't even our biggest problem anymore. We've got Chris Matthews and the rest of the MSNBC and CNN shitheels playing fast and loose with us on a regular basis and damn few decent spokespeople willing to mix it up.

We need straight talkers with quick wits up there...and we need a coherent, cohesive message that speaks to people.

I know. Harder than it sounds.

The Republicans are only successful because they employ really good liars. We need to employ really good truth-tellers. We should make better use of our best resources--Rachel Maddow and Thom Hartmann come to mind.

[Fire Walk With Me]

18. Agreed and recommended.

We need to recontext the work.

If there is money in war, find something peaceful that the same factories and people can make, and continue funding it. Turn some war factories into production of cheap, modular housing for the poor and homeless. There would be plenty of work for people to do the building.

Didn't some loggers in the Northwest get retraining to work at a recycling plant? You have to have something for the employees to do, and some sort of profit for the bosses.

Appeal to their interest: money.

Those interested in domination and power can be used to properly organize and oversee.

It of course is not that simple but the crux is mostly money. The money is there; recontextualize what it's being used for and most everyone can be happy.

Except for those who need to own and control everything. I haven't figured out how to deal with them yet. Anyone have any ideas?

[Two Americas]

25. there are many successful models from the past

"Except for those who need to own and control everything. I haven't figured out how to deal with them yet. Anyone have any ideas?"

Think of all the things that were once in place to mitigate against this and have now been ransacked, gutted or eliminated by the Republicans, too often with compliance or complicity by Democrats.

We need to revitalize the union movement to counterbalance corporate power.

We need to rebuild the regulatory structure that once protected public resources and assets.

We need to rebuild our school systems so that every child gets a fair start and an equal chance.

Energy and pollution? We once had an excellent public transportation system.

We once had in hand and in place hundreds of solutions to all of the problems we face today, all of which worked and all of which the Republicans have been busy destroying for 30 years or so.

How do we promote those? First, the public supports all of those but are never given the opportunity to express that support.

We must unabashedly and boldly state the case. We must tell the truth and stop backing up and apologizing. As Democrats, we support the traditional methods for advancing the public good and guarding against the few prospering at the expense of the many. There is no need to "compromise" with the reactionary political forces, and no need to play their fear-monger games along with them.

But before we can present a better future and a positive message to the people, we must stand on the traditional Democratic party principles and ideals, the programs and platforms and ideas that have always brought the party its greatest electoral success. That means we stand for people over profits, labor over capital, and the rights of human beings over property rights. If we cannot or will not make that fundamental distinction between ourselves and the Republicans, everything we try to do is crippled and weakened.

[Fire Walk With Me]

27. I wish that I could recommend your post alone.

Please start a new thread with it and PM me when you do, and I'll kick and recommend it!

[Two Americas]

29. kicking

Good excuse to kick mythsaje's great OP.

Thanks Peake.

[KaptBunnyPants]

20. Our elites share the same party circuit with their elites.

That's why our elites like corporate friendly centrism. Not because it appeals to ordinary people, but because it appeals to other rich people. But with a dysfunctional corporately owned media and a dysfunctional political process, I don't see how any of this could change. Theoretically the primary process could force a positive change in leadership, but people still believe TV, and as long as TV dictates our political destiny, we will continue to deteriorate. Some people said the internet would change this situation, but it is too easy to flood with disinformation and paid trolls, so I don't ultimately see it as much of a solution for overcoming the iron clad control of information found in American discourse. Try as I might, I don't see anything changing until the inefficiencies and corruption inherent in a banana Republic cause either the oil or the food to stop flowing, and by then it will be too late.

[Mythsaje]

21. There's only one thing we can do...

Keep fighting.

And the internet has its flaws, but it is still a damn useful tool. If not for the 'net, we'd be a hundred times as screwn as we are now.

[terisan]

22. Great! In the tradition of great presidents like FDR. He was a fighter not a hoper.

[Two Americas]

23. we are too tolerant

We are too tolerant when we don't object to people saying that poor or disadvantaged or less fortunate people have no one to blame but themselves.

We are too tolerant when we have double standards, and always give the wealthy and powerful a break while looking for ways to blame the less well off and less powerful or successful.

We are too tolerant of racist talking points that work their way into the discussion every day.

We are too tolerant of the bashing of GLBT people that happens not once in a while - but every time the subject comes up and sometimes even when it doesn't.

We are too tolerant of demeaning and hateful misogynist talk and crude sexist remarks.

We are too tolerant of libertarian and Republican economic points of view inserted into every discussion about economic justice.

We are too tolerant of those incarcerated being described as "animals" and sub-humans and we are too tolerant of talk that enthusiastically imagines dire and cruel punishments being meted out to "them."

We are too tolerant of rape being dismissed and trivialized.

We are too tolerant of prison rape, and once a week or so it is used as fodder for jokes.

We have extended our hand, we have tried to sit at the table and discuss things with bigots, haters and liars too much for too long.

We are even too tolerant of hateful language being used against our enemies.

I got so fed up at another board about this, that I recently posted this:

I wouldn't participate or contribute to a discussion or activity where nuclear war, torture or fascism were advocated and legitimatized as an "alternative view" equal to other views. This is not a matter of not being "open" to those views, nor of being afraid of them, nor of censorship. It is a personal moral stance.

I have the same moral stance about racism. In recent days there has been a flood of "alternate" views trumpeted and promoted here, with little challenge or rebuttal from the members at large, that are not serious discussions of anything but rather are propaganda for the purpose of promoting racist views and forcing them into the discussion and onto the membership. People are of course free to hold those views and to speak them as and when they like. Others are free to not listen to them, nor to give them an audience as though they were presenting something of value.

I won't participate in the promotion of hatred and bigotry, and after numerous attempts to engage in a thoughtful and honest discussion with people here about the subject of race, it has become very clear that there is no such intention on their part, and they are using the discussion for the sole purpose of repeating hateful ideas and are completely unresponsive to any other points, other than to jeer and ridicule people.

I can hear the racist talking points that swamp any and all threads about the subject of racism at any local bar. I long ago decided that life was too short to waste time on that. You can't have intelligent discussions with bigoted people. Bigots will do whatever it takes to sabotage a discussion, and will never concede a point nor admit to any possibility that they could be wrong or that they could have anything to learn.

Some of you, seriously committed to the truth, may look around and ask yourselves why the truth movement, the Paul movement, the freedom movement et al, are so overwhelmingly comprised of white people. After all, people of color suffer the worst at the hands of the "PTB" and one would think that any truth or attempts at gaining freedom from the "PTB" would attract people of color. If you spend any time at the African American boards or the Latino boards as I do, you would see that they are miles ahead of the white "truth" and "freedom" movements in terms of understanding the power structure and the way that it oppresses all of us.

Over the years, I have gotten dozens and dozens of emails and pms from minority people, lurkers and members, as from my posts they see me as a sympathetic character. Without exception, they see the white boards as bristling with racial hostility, so much so that they are not comfortable participating at all. But of course, we are to imagine that they are all wrong and engaging in "being offended" and "playing the race card" and "reverse racism" and "PC lib" propaganda.

I feel corrupted and morally compromised to continue to participate in and contribute to organizations and groups where large numbers of people are tacitly excluded on the basis of race, and where hateful racial stereotypes and racist ideas are given free reign, where this is vehemently denied, and where anyone trying to shine a light on this is treated with thuggish hostility and assaulted.

I would not let racist remarks go without comment and rebuttal in any off-line social or work situation, nor would I remain in a job or a social setting where racist talk was accepted as legitimate and where others were forced to endure it day after day, or else feel compelled to debate the racist ideas endlessly with people who had no interest in serious debate, and as though the hateful and bigoted ideas warranted serious discussion.

Some subjects so poison the discussion that it renders all discussions unproductive. I don't want the advocacy of torture to get "equal time" and debate that with people who are bound and determined to promote it or apologize for it. I feel the same way about racism.

Feel free to promote racism. Feel free to deny that you are. I am duty bound and morally compelled to withdraw from such a context for discussion, and must act on my best judgment about that.

[Mythsaje]

24. I lost my temper the other night

because a few posters were spamming the board with the whole "we can't nominate Obama because the racists will get angry" thing.

My support of Edwards has nothing to do with his color and everything to do with his positions on the issues. Well, some issues, at least. And the ones with which I don't agree, well, I'm afraid the other top-tier candidates are no better.

I'm happy to work for Target because of its dedication to diversity. We have people of all ethnicities in our store and people are treated based upon their value as workers, not based upon their race or skin color. We have and have had several openly gay or bi team members and I have NEVER heard, nor would I tolerate, anything negative said about any of them because of it.

Workplace diversity is SUCH a great tool in this regard because it teaches people to accept others for who they are, not WHAT they are.

No one I work with, not even the teenagers, would ever think to say "that's so GAY," as a term of derision. And none of the supervisors or execs would ever tolerate such language.

I don't socialize with bigots. I don't work with bigots. And I'm sure as hell not going to tolerate that sort of behavior here. Not without a fight.

Argue about policy and condemn the candidates' positions on the issues all you like, but do NOT expect me to remain silent if it descends into racist or sexist language. I don't use the term "bitch" or "whore," even in approved context. Hell, I don't even like people referring to Annthrax Coultergeist as "Mann" Coulter. It's not funny.

And those who think that people in prison "get what's coming to them" are utter shitheads. Without question. I support realistic, sincere attempts at rehabilitation--punative, over-the-top vengeance models do NOTHING to foster rehabilitation.


Of course, I'm a liberal and proud of it. And that's just the way I see things.

[formercia]

26. Fuck Kumbaya.

Time to kick some ass.

[madokie]

28. I could not agree more

REC

[bbgrunt]

30. eloquent and so true.

[kineneb]

31. time for ridicule?

perhaps time to give the fascists their just recognition...next time one starts blathering, just click one's heels together and give Nazi salute, walk off silently ... might get point across, since being nice/reasonable/logical is lost on such folk...

sick and tired of arguing...about to start sharpening pointy metal things...

[formercia]

32. Make a few biofuel powered torches too.

and i'll warm up a bucket of tar.

[Laelth]

33. Nicely said.

k&r

:dem:

-Laelth

[Mnemosyne]

34. Bravo Mythsaje, bravo!

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[balantz]

36. Eyes open

K & R!!!

[northofdenali]

37. Agreed, and adding to the recs and applause -

if I wasn't so sick (and can't afford a doc), I'd write more! My mom is a young 92 and is kicking chairs (something her mother told her NOT to do) because she can no longer be heard.

Mythsaje - bless you.


DON'T leave the door to the outhouse open at 45 below

[liberalhistorian]

38. The problem is that such purity, while admirable, gets us nowhere

in the end and is why we've been on the losing end for so long and will continue to be if we don't recognize the importance of working with those who may not share our own views and goals 100%. It doesn't mean giving in to them or giving up what we believe in, it just means recognizing that others may have different views and beliefs and that they need to be worked with as well, or we're never going to get anywhere. We can't exist on our own narrow island. It just doesn't work that way.

[Mythsaje]

45. If they refuse to budge

the only path to compromise is to move their direction.

That will destroy us all.

[Richard Steele]

39. K&R

[pingzing58]

40. Great post. Food for thought. Thanks.

[Cronopio]

41. Right on. I vote for my candidates to go to war, not to make deals.

If they can't manage that, forget them.

[lisainmilo]

42. Bravo!!! Very Nice Thought and Post!

K&R! :)

[Joe Fields]

43. We can't even sell liberalism to liberals.

We can't make peace among ourselves.