"The far-left is just as bad as the far-right."

[Bjorn Against]

We have heard it time and time again. The far left is just as bad as the far right they tell us. Of course they never tell us what the “far left” stands for, so maybe we should look at the positions of the left in America and compare them to the positions of the right so that we can confirm whether or not they are indeed just as bad.

Apparently it is just as bad to believe every American should have access to quality health care as it is to leave tens of millions to live without health insurance.

Apparently it is just as bad to want peace as it is to bomb a civilian population which posed no threat to the United States .

Apparently it is just as bad to want to protect our environment as it is to allow industry to spew more toxic chemicals into our air and water.

Apparently it is just as bad to believe every American should have equal rights as it is to believe that people should have their rights denied if they love someone of the same sex.

Apparently it is just as bad to believe that we should work to protect people’s basic Constitutional rights as it is to believe that we should hold people in secret prisons without charges and torture them.

Apparently it is just as bad to believe that we should count all votes accurately as it is to believe that we should allow Diebold to count our votes without oversight or accountability.

Apparently it is just as bad to believe that everyone should have an equal voice in our democracy as it is to believe that those who can afford the biggest campaign contributions should have their voice heard more loudly than everyone else.

Apparently it is just as bad to believe that we should start moving towards renewable energy sources as it is to believe we should continue allowing Exxon to run our energy policy.

Apparently it is just as bad to believe that all Americans should receive a fair wage for their labor as it is to believe that we should continue to pay CEOs over 400 times what the average worker makes.

Apparently it is just as bad to believe that no person is above the law as it is to believe that the people in the White House should face no accountability for their crimes.

Apparently it is just as bad to believe that we should listen to the scientists and do something about global warming as it is to play Russian Roulette with our children’s future and do nothing to stop the coming environmental catastrophe.

They can say that the “far left” is just as bad as the far right all they want, but the truth is that on every major issue of importance it is the leftist position that would benefit the most people. It is the leftist position that respects human rights and workers rights. It is the leftist position that seeks peaceful solutions rather than the military solutions which result in mountains of dead bodies. But they keep telling us that the left is just as bad as the right, and people still keep blindly repeating the talking point without seriously looking at the positions held by each side.

What exactly is it that makes someone “far left”? Is it their belief that everyone should have the right to health care? Is it their belief that corporations should be held accountable when they cause harm? Is it their belief that we should not bomb civilian populations who pose us no threat? Is it their belief that torture is wrong? Is it their belief that the pResident should have to follow the law? What position is it exactly that makes someone far left?

I am sick of so-called “moderates” who support the illegal occupation of Iraq, support the insurance industry as they deny health care to tens of millions of Americans, support the Bush Administrations illegal surveillance of American's phone conversations, and oppose doing anything substantial to stop global warming calling us extremists. There is nothing “moderate” about continuing following the status quo in a country that has gotten this far off track, and they are the ones that should be compared to the far-right because they are the ones that have continually voted with the far-right on many of the most crucial issues facing this nation. There is no comparison between progressives and the far-right, but it is easy to compare those who vote with the far-right to the far-right.

There are not two extremes in this country, there is only one extreme and saying the “far-left is just as bad as the far-right” over and over again does not change the reality that it is the right-wing that has been working to destroy this nation.

[Bicoastal]

1. I always thought far-far-lefties...

...were anarchists. You know, the sorta people who torch SUV lots, which I DEFINITELY am not in favor of.

Among other things, they hurt the environment more than helping it by doing such things.

[LittleClarkie]

3. The folks at Counterpunch quallify for me

Where none of our candidates were good enough for them in 2004 except maybe Kucinich, and only just barely

[tomp]

77. so kucinich is your definition of far left???? nt

[John Q. Citizen]

127. Did they hurt your feeling because they saw things differently from you? I'm not

sure if you are all that cut out for politics.

[Divine Discontent]

174. wow

fresh air is cleansing

[Bjorn Against]

5. While there are a tiny number out there who do that type of thing they are extremely rare...

When such things do occur they get tons of press coverage and so people believe such events are very common, but they are not common at all. When people keep repeating the talking point that the "far-left is just as bad as the far-right" it is usually in a context that is far more broad than merely pointing out the tiny number of violent leftists across the country.

[ihavenobias]

59. I think when many people think of "far left"

they think of radical animal, environmental and women's rights activists.

Granted, the definition of "radical" may depend on who you ask, but I usually hear radical attached to one or all of the above three *if* it comes up. If I were to give my own example of the last one, it would be when a group of feminists (who clearly do NOT represent all or even most feminists) wanted to lower strength test requirements for firefighters because they said the standard test was somehow discriminatory.

I was horrified and very much bothered by this (ridiculous) argument. But again, luckily only a VERY small number of people hold such an absurd position.

And obviously, some people who are conservative tend to think that ANY support of these things(women, animals and the environment) is somehow "radical".

PS---I'm getting the documentary "Your Mommy Kills Animals" shipped to me soon. It sounds interesting and overall has gotten good reviews:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/your_mommy_kills_animals/

[RaleighNCDUer]

130. And "tiny number" is right.

For any 1 violent left radical in this country we have a thousand Klansmen, Skinheads, Nazis. How many Maoists are there compared to Christian Identity?

They may be as bad, but they are WAY outnumbered.

[Breeze54]

9. Those people are extremists, not the 'far left'.

Besides today's 'far left' used to be considered normal Democrats.
The whole party has shifted to the right! :grr: Everything is skewed.

[DBoon]

76. Exactly

using gasoline and ammunition to advance your politics does not make you "left" or "right", it only makes you a deranged criminal.

A far left party would advocate replacing capitalism with worker's soviets, for example.

Most of what is considered "far left" now would have been mainstream Democratic liberalism in the 1950's

[sazemisery]

144. That is exactly it in a nutshell. Thank you. n/t

[redqueen]

137. THANK YOU!

:thumbsup:

[FarLeftRage]

173. Sorry, I am not a "normal Democrat"...

I am a Socialist, and I think that today's Socialists are yesterday's Democrats.

[Kutjara]

10. I'm not sure that Anarchists would agree.

Almost by definition, anarchism is off the traditional "left/right" political spectrum. Anarchists reject conventional notions of hierarchical governance and believe political power should be devolved as locally as possible. Such beliefs could just as easily be grafted onto a far-right libertarian worldview as a far-left socialist one. It's all in the details.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. Good analysis. Gandhi was an Anarchist.

[harmonicon]

152. why didn't I just read what you wrote...

...before writing the same response (a far more poorly worded version) myself? That's what I get for being a boob and not reading to the end of the thread first.

[truedelphi]

179. That was a very cogent obervation

And one i agree with.

[rockymountaindem]

12. I always thought that people who make those remarks are usually referring to Hitler and Stalin

as their examples of "far right" and "far left", I rarely hear it used in the context of the US political landscape.

[pampango]

94. Exactly, rockymountaindem. That is precisely the frame of reference which most

people are refering to when they compare the "far left" and "far right". More recent examples such as Mao, Pol Pot, Pinochet, etc. are also often brought into the discussion. I don't hear that the expression has much to do with public policy question, but rather that dictators on either extreme look an awful lot alike.

[Cant trust em]

107. I wish that were true

Mitt Romney has compared Hillary Clinton to Mao and Karl Marx plenty of times. Most Republicans think of most Democrats as communists, though they might not really know what that means. "Rush Limbaugh told me so!"

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. Am I a far-far lefty? Please tell me if I am.

I believe in universal health care (not insurance, health care);

I believe in lobbying being made illegal, tho anyone may write letters to their elected officials;

I believe that the old should be well taken care of financially and medically using tax funds, not made to decide whether to buy a medicine or have a roof over their head.

I believe in strong anti-trust laws;

I believe the largest source of our problems is right wing thinking and the free market lies of economists and the economic theory taught in the western nations;

I believe free trade is a quick and easy way for the rich to get richer, the poor poorer, and the middle class poor;

I believe there should be a true progressive tax without deductions after a certain amount of wealth/salary;

I believe men and women should not go to bed on the first date, or the second, or the third;

I believe no one should have sex with someone before they know their family, their family's background, their family's names, have met them, etc.

I believe everyone should be sexually faithful;

I believe both marriage and divorce should be very difficult to obtain;

I believe teenagers should eat their dinner with their families every night;

I believe drugs should not be used by teenagers.

[harmonicon]

155. Nope, you sure aren't.

If you were a far far lefty, you wouldn't even want privately owned business to exist, so you wouldn't need to have any interest in anti-trust laws. There also wouldn't be any differences in salary to worry about taxing.

I'd say that you're a pretty firm moderate centrist when it comes to political thinking. Only in the US where we have a slightly right of center party (The Democrats) and a batshit crazy party (Republicans) would you be considered a lefty.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

189. That's exactly what I think, but people in the U.S. (including Democrats) call me extreme lefty

I consider Bill and Hillary Clinton to be right wing, and the Republican Party to be fascist.

[harmonicon]

208. yep, that about covers it.

[readmoreoften]

22. No. You're confusing anarchy/totalitarianism with left-right.

politicalcompass.org

Far left is Marxism (society run by the workers), Far Right is Capitalism. The Center is capitalism with checks and balances or socialism with market reforms (Contemporary Europe is a good example.)

Libertarianism/Totalitarianism is a top-bottom thing. There are right-libertarians (such as Ron Paul) or left-libertarians such as Noam Chomsky.

[superduperfarleft]

51. Read a book once in a while.

Anarchism and torching SUVs have nothing to do with each other.

Jesus fucking christ...

[Echo In Light]

92. Anarchism hasn't anything to do with torching SUVs

Those beholden to the Name Brand party ruse get a lot of mileage in distorting/subverting terms like anarchism, socialism, liberal, and so forth.

http://www.anarchismtoday.org/index.php

[yardwork]

95. Anarchists don't believe in violence.

There's a lot of misconception about the meaning of Anarchist. It's not the same as being a terrorist.

The tiny number of people who torch SUV lots don't represent the left. They are simply criminals.

[CRF450]

119. Funny, their was a thread here about some dude's Hummer being vadalized

And pretty much destroyed. Their were some posters that actually cheered on the vandalizers! Like you, I despise of that kind of activity, fucking up someone else's personal property for a political agenda is downright childish, and the people who do that should jailed for a long time.

I'm involved in offroading and I'v heard many stories of environemtal anarchists booby trapping single dirtbike/quad trails, putting down nails or spikes on the ground to flatten tires, some have tied thin wires around trees. Their have been a few incidents like that where the rider was killed or decapitated by a wire being tied around trees, hearing these and knowing that they're true makes my blood boil:grr: :mad:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

120. What about people who throw tea into harbors?

:shrug:

[CRF450]

126. And your argument, please?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

131. I'm figuring you'd detest that sort of activity.

Destroying other people's tea for political purposes would be downright childish, and such people should be in prison, right?

I'm just checking for consistency.

[John Q. Citizen]

128. Got a link, or should we take the word of someone who destroys our public property for their own

personal agenda?

I've heard many stories of off roaders riding illegally where it's against the law, that they could give a shit that they are pumping CO2 into the atmosphere thus destroying lots of personal property around the world, they hunt our animals without a licence (poach) they degrade our public lands as part of there personal selfish agenda. Sometimes they have triggered avalanches killing groups of cross country skiers

They are far more numerous and far more destructive than environmental anarchists.Knowing this is true really make my blood. Who is going to take away there license to kill?

[CRF450]

132. The riding illegally part pisses me off too

The incidents that I'm talking about were on legal trails. Speaking of their gas usage, my dirtbike gets comparble gas milage to a Honda Civic.

I'm sorry I dont have a link for the thread that I'm describing, but it did exist several months ago. I'm not BS'ing at all.

[pollo poco]

138. Your memes are showing

Yes,sometimes lefties burn things, but how often do they travel overseas to torch entire countries? An SUV lot is a rather small fire compared to say the Amazon, or Iraq. Not really a valid comparison. Except in the topsy turvy world of the MSM.

Dominance, violence, and oppression of living things are the raison d'etre of the far right.The SUV is definitely a proud symbol of all of those things.

"Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind." If you disagree with mass destruction and status based waste, SUVs put it right in your face. Every day. It's a strong statement. When people go out of their way to assert dominance (in this case economic, cultural, political and environmental dominance)it is no surprise when it comes back at them. The real surprise is that it happens so seldom. This is because the far left character is typically overwhelmingly non violent.

I don't burn things. But I do wonder what it will take to stop the arrogant pricks who think SUVs rule. I really object to their cavalier destruction of everything I hold dear. How does one get their attention? They are so used to big explosions on the tee vee that ordinary discourse doesn't even make a dent. They only speak the language of fire and waste.

[coalition_unwilling]

147. Not sure anarchism lies on the traditional right-left political spectrum.

If one takes Stalin as a far-leftist, he was an avowed enemy of anarchism. Would that then qualify anarchism as right-wing?

[chervilant]

149. I suggest that

we stop playing this 'your poop smells worse than my poop' game with the rapidly shrinking, but still significant number of people whose ideologies seem predicated by selfishness (you'll not get any of MY money to help the elderly or the poor--they can get off their asses and work like I do!) or hedonism (it's MY money--if I want to spend it putting gas in my Hummer, who are YOU to stop me?!?).

Distill the differences among us to the purest form and you will identify a small group of people whose beliefs are defined primarily by their economic behavior and an infantile, selfish need for yet more power (e.g., more money). There is no arguing with such individuals. You cannot hope to persuade them to reframe or understand. We must stop putting our energy toward the fruitless endeavor to "embrace" these pathetic people and change their minds. We must fight them instead, using pacifist means of protest and social change, a la Gandhi. CHANGE THE RULES OF THIS GAME!

Also, I would suggest we stop playing the smelly poop game with each other. We The People must be relentless in our efforts to be the change we wish to see in this world. We The People must work tirelessly to stop the Corporate Cabal currently infesting our government and manipulating world politics. This will require facing our personal fears of being marginalized economically (aren't we there already??) and refusing to play the Corporatists' game any longer!

I remain hopeful that I will see this level of courage among us, even as those closest to me chide me to take off my rose-colored glasses...

[harmonicon]

150. I think the far left may mean anarchists, but I don't even know if anarchists...

....count on the right/left spectrum. A lot of anarchists would be more in line with Socialists, and others with Libertarians. The word "anarchy" really means something like "ruler-less", as opposed to meaning that it's a free for all. I think of it as being another way of organizing government/society, where there can be no rulers, or hierarchical class structure. One can't really say what an anarchist government would look like, since there's never been one. I think it's a shame that these SUV-burners are now what we call anarchists, because there used to be real anarchist revolutionaries, especially in the Spanish civil war....

If you do count them as far left, which I may as well, but with trepidation, we have to admit that there is no "left" in the US. There just isn't. There isn't even a centrist party. The Democrats are right of center, as far as I'm concerned.

[ooglymoogly]

177. What a pile of boooolcheeet

and what it must be like to be living in your head. The farthest reaches of the far left does not espouse such right wing tactics. The folks you are talking about are right wing (my way or the highway) nuts who are labeled by the right wing as left and that is one of the most successful tactics of the right.

[ChiciB1]

178. Anarchists Are Anarchists! that Does NOT Transl;ate To Being

LEFT! I love animals and I abhor how they have been used and abused, but I had to leave PETA because of some of the things they did! Doing the things you describe are not O.K. with me, but I am to the left of Clinton & Obama... I AM Liberal and I AM proud to be one! I'm SICK of all the "moderate" Kissie, Huggie crap... but that does NOT mean I'm going to go out and destroy the environment or throw a temper tantrum or others objects at Repukes!

I am however going to voice my objection to what I feel, and I am going to voice my objection to the DLC'ers who feel the need to use different words to describe themselves from Repukes, when in actuality I see them as almost one and the same!!

[JeffR]

2. Perfect. I'd like to see this OP carved in stone & placed on the Mall

:applause:

[TahitiNut]

4. Maybe the "far left" believes in telling the truth all the time? Fancy that!

There IS NO "far left" remaining in this country to speak of.

[Breeze54]

6. You hit the nail on the head! Thank You!

I really needed to read something along these lines today and thank you for saying
it out loud and educating the many who seem to be wanting more of the same baloney.
"They" need to wake up and stop voting against themselves and their neighbors!

:yourock:

:kick: & Recommended

[Naturyl]

7. I think they usually mean in terms of behavior

And sometimes, we are.

Our message is definitely better, though. There's no comparison between wanting to help as many people as possible unconditionally (us) and wanting to legitimize and rationalize greed, war, and selfishness (them).

[Bjorn Against]

11. Who is "we"?

I don't see anyone on the left bombing civilians, torturing people, or illegally wiretapping people's phones without a warrant.

[Naturyl]

16. I mean behavior in the realm of political discourse

The far left and the far right are just as prone to "go off their meds," in my experience.

I've certainly done it myself a time or two.

[Bjorn Against]

42. In that case I would suggest you include "moderates" in the equation...

Because remember they keep telling us Joe Lieberman is a moderate, and he isn't the only one. If you are talking about discourse then you can find plenty of examples of people spewing crazy stuff anywhere you look on the spectrum, but I would argue that generally the left tends to be more rational than "moderates" or right-wingers.

[bvar22]

108. Both Hillary and Obama are 'Moderates"...

(Conservative Democrats) and THEIR supporters have "gone off their meds" on this board.

[Yukari Yakumo]

19. ELF, among others. {nt}

uguu

[Bjorn Against]

29. The ELF has never had any real influence in this country...

They receive a lot of attention by the media, but their numbers are tiny and a good number of them are almost certainly right-wing infiltrators trying to make the left look bad. The ELF and ALF do not represent the left in this country, they do not even represent the "far-left". When the talking point is used it carries connotations that go far beyond the ELF, there quite simply is no comparison between the most progressive people in this country and the most far-right people.

[Lilith Velkor]

36. There is nothing "left" about ALF or ELF

I've met some of those guys, and I'd say they are animal cultists or Gaea cultists. They have not squat to do with human rights or economic justice, except for attempting to recruit from groups dedicated to said causes.

[Bjorn Against]

41. I agree, that is why I said many of them are almost certainly right-wingers

They are out to discredit the left, and they want to undermine real environmentalists.

[superduperfarleft]

53. Um, no.

Not saying I agree with their tactics but....um, no. :shakes head:

Shit like this reminds me of right-wingers who want to argue that Hillary is a radical Marxist or something.

[Lilith Velkor]

58. Different extremes attract different crazies

The Nature Boys are drawn to the left, Christian fanatics to the right.

Of course there's always moles, but ya just gotta monkeywrench 'em right back. That's how it is.

[Bjorn Against]

63. I am not denying they exist...

I am just saying they are completely insignificant because there are saw few of them, and yes some of them are right-wing infiltrators. There have been many incidents in history of right-wingers infiltrating leftist organizations. I am not claiming that there aren't any crazy people on the left out there, it is just the few that do exist are completely insignificant to the greater leftist movement.

[LeftyMom]

85. That is a complete crock of shit.

Sure, there are some people who are single-issue idiots, but for the most part people involved in such things tend to be big on the whole idea of interlocking oppressions. There's a bit push lately to work more with advocates for social justice and enviornmental responsibility in impoverished areas both in the global south and the developed world, to be more inclusive as a movement of trans people, to... oh fucking a, why am I wasting keystrokes on you?

Yep, you're right. :sarcasm: Movements thick with anarchists don't care about social or economic justice. It's all about the bunnies. Thank you for clearing that up for me, I didn't realize everybody I know was misrepresenting themselves. Thank you, random internet know-it-all for showing me the error of my ways.

[Lilith Velkor]

96. You're welcome.

Here's a few more clues: when you hassle Salvadoran leftists for stealing cows and slaughtering them so that their people can eat, don't be surprised if you are invited to go fuck yourself.

When you dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back for being "more inclusive of trans people" don't get too annoyed if the nice ladies from VFP and IVAW laugh their asses off.

Also, just because a quasi-religious movement diverts young anarchists into itself, which is convenient for the right, that doesn't mean it is anarchist itself.

Glad I could help. Keep coming back, it works if you work it.

[LeftyMom]

102. It must be nice to have somebody to hate so much.

Much easier than thinking.

[Lilith Velkor]

113. You know what's even easier than that?

Hating people who are being hunted down and killed by the cops, in broad daylight, because they eat chicken.

It's just so *unthinking* to have a problem with that, isn't it? :sarcasm:

[flvegan]

207. "I've met some of those guys"

Be damn fucking specific as to what they said to lead you to your opinion.

Funny...I've seen SO many folks that "know" or "have met all these" mobsters, too.

[LeftyMom]

84. Did I miss the part where anybody ever got hurt in an ELF action?

/me thumbs through back issues of EF! journal, to make sure.

No, I didn't. But thanks for playing.

[I work for workers]

100. The people who loose jobs or can't finish building homes aren't hurt? nt

[LeftyMom]

101. So we shouldn't boycott or protest WalMart because the blue vests might lose hours?

:popcorn:

[I work for workers]

103. You shouldn't burn Wal-Marts down.

Protesting = good. Criminal destruction of property = bad.

EDIT: Sad story about the last Wal-Mart protest I went to. Fully half the people who came shopped afterwards. One women showed up with five minutes left, said "I'm here to support you" and then walked in and shopped. Most others were a little less obvious, and "used the bathroom" for a hour or so.

[LeftyMom]

104. I'm not a big fan of arson as a protest tactic myself.

:shrug:

[Mister Ed]

8. Excellent! K&R, and off to the Greatest Page with ye!

Now to settle in and read the second half...

[Cronus Protagonist]

13. I got fascists to the left of me and fascists to the right of me

That's how I know I'm in the middle.

:P

[Bjorn Against]

17. Well if you believe that I would suggest you read up on what fascism is...

Because by definition fascism is a right-wing ideology. If you have fascists to the left of you then you would have to be really far to the right, because there is no such thing as a leftist fascist.

[Cronus Protagonist]

23. You're right, I should have said "totalitarians" or "authoritarians"

But it doesn't ring the same way, even although the positions are similar, and I was using the term as a slur, in which case it is perfectly acceptable.

[Bjorn Against]

31. Can you name me any leftist totalitiarian groups that have significant influence in the US?

[Cronus Protagonist]

34. Can you spell PLONK?

*plonk*

[Lilith Velkor]

38. Commies to the left of me, fascists to the right...

Rings just fine to me. :shrug:

[phiddle]

14. The "far left" helps people. the "far right" kills people.

[melody]

15. What you're discussing isn't "far left extremism"

Far left extremism brings the same level of sociopathy and heartlessness to an extreme interpretation
of progressive ideals as Bush brings to the right-wing agenda.

[Bjorn Against]

20. But that is the point, there is no far-left extremism to speak of in this country

People keep using the talking point, but I have been around many leftists and I have never seen anyone who is sociopathic in their beliefs. If you went to the USSR under Stalin you maybe could find some far-left extremists, but their numbers in the US are pretty much non-existent.

[readmoreoften]

24. Correct. There is no far left at all in the US. Kucinich is center-moderate left. /nt

[melody]

43. Oh, I have -- one environmentalist I met wanted a "die off" of humans to preserve the earth

I've met a lot of incredibly nutty, anti-social wackjobs clustered around progressive issues.
They're lower profile in the US, but they exist. There's an international publication that is
focused on what they call "socialism" that advocates "resettling" "good" Americans and putting
the rest in armed retraining camps. I wish this was a joke. Take out "Americans", plug-in "Jews"
and you'd see some pretty nasty WWII Nazi-value propaganda. Human neurology only varies over a
certain range. We'll find different costumes to dress them up in, but it's the same actors with
the same drives and motivations. Extremism is extremism, no matter how it clothes itself.

[Bjorn Against]

50. I have had plenty of contact with leftists, and I have never met anyone like that

I am not denying such people exist, but that their numbers are completely insignificant. I have read plenty of leftist material, and I have been involved in protests and workshops with leftists. I am a proud radical. You won't find too many to the left of me. I know what it means to be a leftist, and I can tell you that the people you are talking about mean nothing to most of us. Once they start engaging in violence our advocating totalitarianism they go against the guiding principles of what it means to be a leftist in America. The American left has long championed peace, human rights, and economic justice, and they oppose totalitarianism. There are virtually no Stalinists in America, their numbers are completely insignificant and you will struggle to even find literature from the few that do exist. You can give me one unnamed source, but can you claim that source has any influence or credibility among the left in this country? If not then it is insignificant.

[melody]

72. They manifest in different ways, but we have as many wackos as they do

Now there's always the question of semantics and what a "leftist" is, but I know of no genuine conservative
who agrees with a neocon. And really, whether you're a right-winger or a left-winger depends upon where you're standing.
It will only ever have a relative measurement. The modern neocon is a flavor of "conservative" that is a freak occurrence
in the US, only having cropped up over the last thirty or so years.

You may not like the idea, but there are as many leftist wild-eyed crazies as there are rightest. The proof of this
contention is in the low variety of human neurologies, as I've said. It's hard to get many variations on a theme.
Someone who was a reactionary left-winger in youth (Bruce Dern and Dennis Hopper come to mind) will tend to embrace
right-wing extremism if they do have such a values shift.

[bvar22]

118. "no genuine conservative who agrees with a neocon"

I can name a bunch of so called Democrats who AGREE with NeoCons all the fucking time.

*All Democrats who voted FOR the IWR

*ALL Democrats who voted FOR Kyle/Lieberman

*ALL Democrats who favor Immunity for the Telecoms

*ALL Democrats who voted FOR the Patriot Act

*ALL Democrats who helped seat Alito and Roberts on the SCOTUS (Gang of 14)

The DLC agrees with the NeoCons.
In fact, the people who started the DLC are NeoCons (signed PNAC).

[melody]

163. Where did I mention the DLC? What inference did you draw?

I was going to leave it there, but I'll go on. I'm not a conservative, I'm a liberal. I'm merely
pointing out that neocons aren't conservative. Why the defensiveness?

[Hippo_Tron]

82. The first thing sounds like what Garrett Hardin proposes in the tragedy of the commons

IMO, it's kind of a catch 22. I think there is nothing wrong with pointing out that if the population grows too quickly, we will no longer be able to sustain ourselves. Yet most solutions for population control can seem pretty totalitarian.

[melody]

86. Exactly. Some of the more extreme environmentalists sound rather Mansonsque these days

He was the one who talked about killing people to allow the flowers to grow.

Since we may be the only transcendent meaning nature even has (since it may only exist for our
perspective), it seems to me the baby with the bathwater people are not only shrill but highly
irrational.

[intheflow]

49. I think there was an extremist far-left movement building in the US -- before 9/11.

I'm thinking specifically of the Battle of Seattle, and similar if smaller incidents. At that time, I think a lot of folks on the left were getting pissed and taking to the streets; I don't think it was only self-identified anarchists who broke store windows in Seattle. I remember the difference between the two Bush inaugurations. I felt a much more angry, militant vibe coming from those of us protesting in January 2001 than I felt in January 2005, even though just as many people (if not more) believed it was another stolen election.

I think after 9-11 the far left sort of collectively realized that it couldn't use Battle of Seattle tactics or else it would be lumped in with the "terrists." Hell, you don't even hear about anarchists damaging corporate property now. Back then they might get some time in the county jail for smashing a McDonald's window, but now they know they'd probably get their asses sent to Gitmo.

So after 9/11 we took our dissent down a whole lot of notches. We saw what violent dissent wrought live on tv, as extremists flew planes into buildings filled with innocent people, essentially protesting the same globalized, corporate interests that brought people to the streets in Seattle. We knew we didn't want to be THOSE kinds of protesters. So more people on the far left embraced peace as the true movement of change. But of course we've done that at the expense of some of our Constitutional rights. Since 9-11 we've have more creative protests, more peaceful protests, as we were crowded into "Free Speech Zones"--and we're still portrayed as dangerous and as loony as the extremist far-left who damaged property in the late '90's. :banghead: (Of course it's the CM that continues to portray us that way.)

I'm certainly not advocating wrecking corporate property. (I never did in the first place, I was majoring in Peace Studies during the Battle of Seattle.) I believe that most people on the left have been peace-loving people right along. I guess I'm saying I agree with you that the country truly does not have much of an extremist far-left at present. But I also think the folks who picture the far-left as the anarchist crowd are basing it on an extremist far-left movement that was growing in the very recent past.

[Bjorn Against]

60. I know who you are talking about, and they are nothing like the far-right

There were a few incidents of property damage during a couple of the protests in the 90's but if you look at the actual amount of it it was very minimal. There were a few broken windows, but breaking windows is a tactic, a very dumb tactic yes, but the point is that it is a tactic not an ideology. The US right-wing ideology is specifically about militarism, it is about building an authoritarian state while the left is about breaking away from militarism and resisting authoritarianism.

By far the vast majorities of the protesters in Seattle were peaceful and they were carrying a message of human rights. The police were the ones that exercised the violence in Seattle, seriously watch some of the videos and you will see extreme police tactics. Tear gassing crowds of people, plenty of batons, and many unjust arrests.

I have been exposed to plenty of leftist literature, and I have never seen anything that can be compared to the material put out by the far-right.

[intheflow]

78. True, there are presently more far-right extremists than far-left extremists.

I don't dispute that. But I really felt a very angry movement growing in the late '90's. I believe that if 9/11 hadn't happened citizens would not have stood for the shredding of the Constitution by BuchCo. That and the accompanying dehumanization of the masses by corporate America would have resulted in rioting. I could see uprising unfolding in a small corner of the peace movement (of all places!). I could imagine it erupting within 10 years. That was exactly 10 years ago. And this was on the East Coast, far from Seattle. Blessedly, that feeling seemed to dissipate almost entirely after 9/11.

It's also said that if you picture right and left extremism as existing on opposite ends of a line, the two ends would eventually bend toward each other; extremism is extremism, after all. Resisting authoritarianism cuts both ways. You could say Timothy McVeigh was resisting authoritarianism although he certainly wasn't left-leaning in any other way (was registered Republican, in fact).

I would argue that the Revolutionary War was a violent extreme-leftist movement. The colonists certainly resisted authority with force. And for the very ideals the left fights for today: life (universal health care, environmental movement), liberty (human rights movements) and the pursuit of happiness (anti-war movement--can't be happy without a lasting peace for all peoples). I believe if trampled on enough, the left is just as capable of resorting to violence as the right. The roles are just reversed at present.

The minute "we" think we're better or different from "them," we have dehumanized them, proving we aren't really different from them after all. :(


Edited for typos.

[Solon]

91. Unless you have proof of your allegations, here...

At that time, I think a lot of folks on the left were getting pissed and taking to the streets; I don't think it was only self-identified anarchists who broke store windows in Seattle.

You should retract it and apologize, this fucking smearing of an entire political spectrum of people is just atrocious, I'm frankly sickened by it. Did you even see the fucking video from the ground during the protest?

[intheflow]

111. Yes, I have.

And you're right, I wasn't there and didn't witness who was smashing windows. I am extrapolating a supposition based on my own experiences within the anti-globalization movement during that time which were, admittedly, on the other side of the country. So if you experienced something different, great. But I really don't think my post is a broad-brushed smear of an entire political spectrum of people. You have just interpreted it as such.

[bvar22]

114. It is my belief that undercover Police provacateurs

are commonplace at these demonstrations, and THEY either incite violence, or actually start it.
I have no evidence from Seattle, but there have been VIDEO proof from subsequent demonstrations.

[Solon]

116. Not to mention the overreaction by the police, which forced more moderate unions to join the...

protest, when before they were hesitant to do so because they thought those protesters were just "anarchists".

[Leopolds Ghost]

139. vandalism or violence?

There is a big difference. Vandalism is common at protests throughout history.
Historically, without the threat of vandalism (or occupation of the seat of gov't,
usually buy breaking in and running people out on a rail) it wasn't considered
a protest at all, just a gathering. "Peaceful" protests don't affect anybody who's
not in them unless they employ Ghandhi-like direct action tactics which are equally
disruptive. Disruptive is the point, back before postmodern liberals got the wrong
idea that non-disruptive gatherings of like minded people would change anyone's mind.
That's not how humans work. And nonviolent (no violence) does not mean "peaceful"
(no vandalism of corporate property). That is not to say there aren't many actions
of vandalism that are considered immoral by many Americans. Defiling cars
(even ones own car) for instance, is almost worse than flag burning.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

146. That was my experience at a Portland protest of one of Cheney's visits

I saw four guys get out of car that had somehow been allowed to drive on a street that the cops were blocking off. These four guys walked down the street and tried to get demonstrators to help them tip cars over. Fortunately, nobody fell for it.

At the planning meeting for another protest, we were talking about the importance of non-violence, and this one young man kept arguing that we HAD TO be violent. All of us older types looked at one another, and I knew we were thinking the same thing:"Police plant."

I'm convinced that the window smashers at Seattle were provocateurs. Fifteen thousand people from all walks of life marched peacefully a couple of blocks away, but all the news coverage was about a couple of people in black hoods.

[Leopolds Ghost]

141. You seem angry about store windows being broken. repudiating an entire historical movement!

I've run a store, and the windows got broken twice. No movements were repudiated. Shit happens. Get over it. It's why we have glass insurance.

[Solon]

204. No, I was upset that the poster I responded to basically said that the "far left"...

or the majority of them participate in such activities. When that is NOT true. I hate when posters make up shit to make themselves seem superior. Other than that, I generally agree with you about violence and vandalism.

[Leopolds Ghost]

135. I thought the Battle for Seattle was a step forward. Why are liberals now repudiating it?

Destruction of corporate property is vandalism, NOT "violence".

Even Christ did it once or twice. More to the point, by the
standards of people who think rioting is "terrorism",

The Boston Tea Party is "violent far-left radicalism"

Along with the many, many mob actions by the Boston mob that
led up to it (and which prevented -- thru people power -- the
conservative planter elite from turning the new Continental
Congress into an oligarchy. There's a reason people read
Tom Paine and Sam Adams with great interest. Sam Adams
controlled the Boston mob.)

That is not to say vandalism is usually justified -- it is usually
pernicious. There's that "usually" word again.

[readmoreoften]

142. I agree. My heart bleeds for the windows of Chase Manhattan. What extremists...

Meanwhile in Paris...the moderate left worker-student movement took over the entire country at one point and the far-left communists were part of who they were rebelling against.

[coalition_unwilling]

153. That's funny (not). When I went to college at the University of Missouri

in the late 1970s, the only group protesting on campus against South African apartheid on campus was the Communist Party (10-15 years before it became fashionable to be against apartheid in the mainstream in America.) Would you care to explain to me how the Communist Party's obvious correctness (in retrospect) on South African apartheid 15 years ahead of the rest of the U.S. is an example of "sociopathy" and "heartlessness"?

[melody]

164. *Please* re-read what I wrote and not what you thought I said n/t

[jgraz]

21. K&R -- so-called moderates can suck my far-left nut.

[creeksneakers2]

66. That's what I call far left,, people who can't stand moderates

They attack we moderates as much as the right wing does, maybe more. (The far left seldom attacks Republicans) Both often share the same propaganda. Both are prone to wild conspiracy theories. Both are dogmatic and difficult to reason with. Both propose solutions that can't ever be carried out.

[jgraz]

67. Spoken like a true moderate.

Don't you have some Republican to capitulate to?

[Bjorn Against]

69. I would advise you to read my journal if you think I seldom attack Republicans

Believe me we spend plenty of time attacking Republicans, if you don't see it you have your eyes closed. I can't stand "moderates" who want more war and more corporate power, and I can't stand Republicans. If you noticed my post above bashed Republicans plenty, and if you read my journal you will see I have spent way more time going after Republicans than I have going after Democrats.

[karlrschneider]

117. Speaking of poetic imagery..........

:D :P

[Kucinich4America]

25. Apparently anything to the left of the DLC is considered "far left"

And the DLC would be the Far Right in any other country considered a "Democracy".

[ProgressIn2008]

182. That seems to be the pattern -- and it feels like it's getting worse all the time. eom

[chknltl]

26. Sticks and Stones from moderates who plainly see that....

...both words contain 6 letters therefore they must be the same things! I am thinking that if pressed, most moderates can be counted on for detailed information about American Idol...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

28. The difference is the far-far left has never been in control of media and government

If they were, yeah, I'd be scared of *some* of their ideas, and zealotry in backing them up too........

But the far-far right has been running the show for awhile now, and the results are on the table for all to see.

So no, they are not just as bad......

[mondo joe]

30. I think the far left and far right touch at the ends. But I don't think the people depicted in

this post are the "far left".

[Bjorn Against]

33. In this country the people in my post are the "far-left"...

There quite simply are no left-wing totalitarian groups of any influence in the US. The "far-left" in this country consists of people like Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn who are pushing for more democracy, not less. You can not possibly compare a man of peace like Howard Zinn to a man who pushes for more death and destruction like Karl Rove, the left in this country has much more honorable views than the right.

[mondo joe]

37. They are too some dishonest or ignorant people, true.

But I was talking about reality.

[Bjorn Against]

40. Are you calling Chomsky and Zinn ignorant?

I would love to see you sit down and have a debate with them so you can show us just how ignorant they are. I am sure your "reality" will win out against their academic credentials any day.

[mondo joe]

61. I'm calling people who those the OP described are "far left" ignorant.

[Bjorn Against]

64. What makes them ignorant?

[mondo joe]

65. What makes them ignorant is that they don't know what far left REALLY is if they think the

list up above is the far left.

[Bjorn Against]

68. I am speaking of the American political spectrum...

If you noticed I put the term "far-left" in quotes in the OP and I did that for a reason. Because the real far-left is completely insignificant and is in fact rejected by pretty much every serious radical group in America. Being a self-described radical in America does not mean the same thing as it does anywhere else in the world, what is radical here is pretty moderate in most other democracies.

[mondo joe]

71. Duh. Now go back and read our litle subthread.

[stray cat]

35. agree completely

[guruoo]

129. Glad I'm not the only

one who sees this.

:hi:

[NeedleCast]

32. The Difference is in how we plan to get there

The left and the far left agree on just about every one of the major issues. The real disagrement is much more about the how, not the what.

The left wants health care for all. So does the far left.

The left wants an end to the war. So does the far left.

so on and so forth blah blah.

The difference lies in the length one is willing to go to to accomplish those goals.

[On the Road]

39. I Might Agree with the General Sentiment

except that it's hard to tell -- these days there IS no one on the far left prominent in American politics.

[otherlander]

52. But are we just talking about America?

I know that hardly anybody agrees with me on this, but I think that looking at things in terms of countries seems very last-century. :shrug:

[Bjorn Against]

54. In this case we are...

I can see your point, but my post was meant to cover American political ideology. The American political experience is much different than that of other nations, and the term leftist means something different here than it would mean in China. If we are talking globally then my post would read completely differently, and it would be far more complex. The word "leftist" means different things in different parts of the world, and the leftists in America do not generally welcome Stalinists to their ranks as Stalinists run completely counter to their beliefs.

[tnlefty]

44. I wish that I could rec this twice!

:thumbsup:

[Political Heretic]

45. The "left, right, center" political analogy is SO faulty. :(

Doesn't even make sense.

[otherlander]

55. Yeah, 1 dimension doesn't really work.

If there's a left-right dimension, there should also be a 2nd up-down direction, authoritarian vs. libertarian. There are rightists who want government to control everything and rightists who want no government control so corporations can get away with murder, and authoritarian leftists, and anti-authoritarian leftists.
Maybe a third dimension should be included with something to do with violence... To distinguish between, for example, anarcho-socialists who are pacifists and far-left anti-authoritarians who like to set things on fire.
Or maybe I'm just making things up.

[madeline_con]

46. I thought the far left went much farther left than that.

Your list seems reasonable, not FAR left.

[AuntPatsy]

47. Excellent piece, worth recommending. Made me realize how idiotic such comments can appear

if not thought through. After reading your op I would have to agree those on the far left can not be in any way shape or form linked to those on the far right..thank you for a thoughtful commentary that will hopefully inspire others to rethink their initial reaction when hearing that so often repeated phrase...

[HughMoran]

48. No, but the wacky left is as wacky as the wacky right

:rofl:

wacky is as wacky does :D

[readmoreoften]

143. Yeah but the wacky center and their idiotic smugness is why we are where we are today. /nt

[Kip Humphrey]

56. The FAR MIDDLE gave us Nixon and Bush

:puke:

[EFerrari]

57. "The far middle"

:rofl:

[lala_rawraw]

62. Extreme views are always

Extreme... I don't see them as directional. They meet at the same point. Communism and Fascism, although different systems, meet at the corner of tyranny and police state. That said, I think that far right extremism usually expresses itself through violence, racism, and dead bodies. In that regard, the masses on that side tend to be much more like their leaders.

[davidinalameda]

70. hate to break it to you but the far left doesn't have a monopoly on these issues

hell, there are conservatives who know how bad climate change is and are working against it

you have conservatives who are against the Iraq war and illegal surveillance

you also have leftists who are against abortion

and from reading the posts on this board over the years, you have leftists who are homophobic!

[Mithreal]

80. What you described are moderates

I subscribe to an idea that there is no such thing as a true moderate but you gave good examples of how to identify them - someone who has mixed conservative and liberal ideas. The people you described are misidentifying themselves. But to each his or her own, right?

[davidinalameda]

202. I don't like labels

you can see how divisive they are around here

and I don't like people thinking that you have to fit in some nice little box if you hold certain views

[Mithreal]

211. You used the labels conservative and liberal.

Whether we like labels or not, people self-identify and use them.

[DBoon]

73. The far right made Bush president

controlled our congress for years, invaded Iraq, suspended Habeus Corpus, made our income distribution the most unequal in the industrialized world and our health care the equal of many 3rd world countries.

The far right make Pinochet, Franco, and Joseph McCarthy out as heroes. The far right wants people sent to detention camps for their ethnicity or religion. The far right wanted to completely eliminate a toothless, moderate-conservative Democratic opposition party completely and called for the triumph of one-party rule.

To find someone as far left as these people are far right, you have to look at tiny fringe groups like the Revolutionary Communist Party. These are groups so small and insignificant that you would have a hard time finding them in university sociology departments.

There are probably fewer self-identified socialists in the USA than there are members of the church of scientology.

What I'm saying is that the "far left" effectively does not exist, while the "far right" wields huge power.

[krabigirl]

97. exactly

[bvar22]

110. "Centrist" Democrats helped Bush*.

Without the help of the Centrist Democrats, the majority of the damage could not have happened.

[nikto]

74. It's empirical...

Conservatism is anti-freedom and opportunity (except for the ultra-rich).

Liberalism/progressivism is good for the average person and the
"least" of society.

After 200+ years of American history as evidence,
The Jury is in.

This is fact, not opinion.

Progressivism is the HOPE of humankind.

KKKonservatism is the SCOURGE of humankind (at least,
for the poorest 98% of humankind).

FACT, NOT OPINION.

[OKthatsIT]

75. CENTRISTS got US where we are today!!!

FASCISM...one party ruled by the Banks.

[Mithreal]

81. Both parties and the middle got us into our Banking messes

As long as we are servants of money and greed, banks will rule us. Better economics education for all Americans would help too.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

79. The REAL "far left" in America is so small as to be statistically insignificant

I'm talking about Communists (yes, there's still a U.S. Communist Party), Socialist Workers, and some Greens.

Anyone who thinks ANY Democrat is "far left" has never met a real "far leftist."

[midlife_mo_Jo]

168. Well, if one is a self-described Marxist

I'd say that's far left in this country and most countries, in fact. We have a few of those right here on DU, so it's not like they don't exist right here at "Democratic" Underground. :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

206. Right, but there are no true "far leftists" among Dem elected officials

Even the alleged "far left" Dems (Kucinich, Feingold, Wellstone) would be considered centrists in Europe, according to my European friends.

[orleans]

83. really nice. k&r. reading this demonstrates what so many people

i know consider to be "far left"

and

i'm happy to be there--out in left field. i wouldn't have it any other way.

[donheld]

87. Apparently I'm part of the far left

I have no problem with that. Thanks for posting.

[Cobalt-60]

88. Flamethrower returned to Standby.

I think the main differences is that they're criminals and we're not.
Their "policies" are a pack of lies meant to get them into position to rape the treasury.
Ours are intended to build and sustain a great nation.

[WilliamPitt]

89. "Extremism in the defense of virtue is no vice."

Yeah, that's Barry Goldwater.

Who said this not too long ago:

“It's wonderful that we have so many religious people in our party, ... They need to leave their theologies in their churches.”

;)

[conspirator]

90. I will say it time after time: LEFT and RIGHT is just to divide us. The real issue

is UP and DOWN, HAVEs and HAVE NOTs

[Echo In Light]

93. "America has one political party with two right wings" - Gore Vidal

[Cant trust em]

109. Ironic

Your believe that there are haves and have nots actually puts you on the left. They may be just labels, but they do represent a general idea of what shape our society should take.

[mike_c]

98. I am a proud leftiist with little use for "moderates..."

...who apparently like the status quo enouogh to oppose changing it.

[Echo In Light]

99. Exactly. Moderate left is just that much closer to the right, and that's why it's roundly encouraged

[stimbox]

105. You have been dug...

Thanks for this.

http://digg.com/political_opinion/DU_The_far_left_is_just_as_bad_as_the_far_right

[DontTreadOnMe]

106. I needed this today.

Say it loud and often. There is no middle anymore.

[IronLionZion]

112. No actually, RWers will tell you what you believe

stuff like waiting in long lines for bread and forced abortions. I love it.

[Ganja Ninja]

115. Yup. The far left has never had control of even one branch of our

government so how would anyone know how bad they are? We've seen some pretty bad acts over the last 50 years so I'm curious. I'd like to see the far left get a crack at running things.

[rhett o rick]

121. Far left = average guy that wants secure job, 40 hours, reasonable house, good education for

children, health insurance, reasonable gasoline prices, and a decent retirement plan.

[bbgrunt]

122. this needed to be said, and you said it superbly, MN against Bush

[bvar22]

123. The American People are "Far Left".

It is our Two Political Partys that are Far Right, and Moderate Right.

In recent polls by the Pew Research Group, the Opinion Research Corporation, the Wall Street Journal, and CBS News, the American majority has made clear how it feels. Look at how the majority feels about some of the issues that you'd think would be gospel to a real Democratic Party:

1. 65 percent (of ALL Americans, Democrats AND Republicans) say the government should guarantee health insurance for everyone -- even if it means raising taxes.

2. 86 percent favor raising the minimum wage (including 79 percent of selfdescribed "social conservatives").

3. 60 percent favor repealing either all of Bush's tax cuts or at least those cuts that went to the rich.

4. 66 percent would reduce the deficit not by cutting domestic spending but by reducing Pentagon spending or raising taxes.

5. 77 percent believe the country should do "whatever it takes" to protect the environment.

6. 87 percent think big oil corporations are gouging consumers, and 80 percent (including 76 percent of Republicans) would support a windfall profits tax on the oil giants if the revenues went for more research on alternative fuels.

7. 69 percent agree that corporate offshoring of jobs is bad for the U.S. economy (78 percent of "disaffected" voters think this), and only 22% believe offshoring is good because "it keeps costs down."

http://alternet.org/story/29788/

8. Over 63% oppose the War on the Iraqi People.

9. 92% of ALL Americans support TRANSPARENT, VERIFIABLE elections!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x446445

[LWolf]

224. The question of the century:

Since the american people are "far left:"

Why the FUCK to they nominate centrist to right-wing candidates?

Why are the voters not electing candidates that hold the same positions they do?

Are we REALLY that far left, if the majority of people are willing to be led to the voting booth by the nose?

[LanternWaste]

124. all extremists make me nervous...

Whether political, religious, philosophical, trendy-cynical, gun enthusiasts, or beer drinkers-- all extremists make me nervous.

I agree in part-- there are not two extremes in this country. There's thousands.

[slackmaster]

125. The positions you describe as far left aren't the AUTHORITARIAN far left

Which is what the statement "the far left is as bad as the far right" generally means.

Or as a Chinese former coworker of mine put it: "A left jack boot up your ass feels no better than a right jack boot up your ass."

HTH

[stimbox]

133. That Chinese coworker sure gets around...

And he changes ethnicity as much as he changes jobs.

I see that rw talking point posted a lot.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

214. The statement by my coworker was original, I've never seen those words anywhere else

I see that rw talking point posted a lot.

That's nonsense, stimbox.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22left+jack-boot+up+your+ass%22

My former coworker lived in China. He knows very well what it's like living under an authoritarian left regime.

Besides, how can something that attacks both the far right and the far left be an RW statement? That makes no sense at all.

[stimbox]

217. Libertarians are right wing!

Ask Dr. Paul.

I like the way that someone had the subthread deleted.

It's a play on the jackboot on the neck, doesn't matter who wears it line.

Hardly original.

[slackmaster]

225. Ron Paul is very right-wing

The Libertarian Party is somewhat right-wing.

Libertarianism in and of itself is not.

I am neither a member of the Libertarian Party nor a supporter of Ron Paul. My philosophy is basically libertarian (note lower-case "l").

Thanks for the opportunity to educate you.

I like the way that someone had the subthread deleted.

If you hadn't openly accused me of lying, it probably wouldn't have been deleted.

[readmoreoften]

145. Yeah, we're not likely to have a Maoist or Stalinist uprising in the US.

People here think social democracy is the Far Left. Both of our parties on the Right.

[donkeyotay]

136. Thanks for posting this, MN Against Bush

There is nothing “moderate” about continuing following the status quo in a country that has gotten this far off track,

We now have debate between the Right and the Far Right, and the Left has been left out of any role in determining policies. Where have these policies gotten us? Illegal war, bigger and more unaccountable government, privatization of public interests, a financial system that cold be described as criminal.... on and on. Still no health care, still no retirement, still no action of the environment... So after all the accomplishments of the Business Roundtable, The llllovely Chamber of Commerce, PNAC, the AEI, Rush, Fox, CNN Crossfire, Savage Nation, Nice Guy Rove, and the Exterminator - only examples off the top - after the Republican Revolution and the K-Street Project - the bottom line is that the Right does not want to now be held accountable for its many achievements. So they have invented this tactic, and it's a doozy. It will end the Democratic Party's already tenuous claim to represent ordinary people over corporate interests, and it will deliver the 2008 election to either a Republican or a neo-independent.

The false choice being presented is not about moderation, it's about staying the course. And I have to wonder why if Obama is a uniter, why is he so effectively dividing the left - cutting us out of the herd yet again. If I recall, in 2000 we elected a uniter not a divider. Apparently, as always, it's okay to divide out the liberal interests of the American people, positions which have traditionally been majority positions held by many Republicans as well as Democrats.

Thanks for contesting the media-induced reality frames.

[Bill McBlueState]

140. all these terms are relative

Terms like "far-left" and "far-right" mean different things relative to American politics than they do relative to politics in most Western democracies.

Look how much space there is to the left of most of our candidates for President:



(From http://www.politicalcompass.org/usprimaries2008)

[RoccoR5955]

196. When I did that survey, I ended up waaaay in the lower left corner...

So I guess that I am far left.
I consider myself more a socialist, than a Liberal.
I believe in such radical ideas as MAXIMUM compensation, as well as a minimum wage. You know, like everything someone gets as 'income' in one year, over 2 million be taxed 110 percent.

I believe that jobs for public works projects like roads and such should be done by the PUBLIC, not private enterprise. Absolutely NO CONSULTANTS. If the government needs a study, they train them in PUBLIC educational institutions.

Art and music should be fully funded by the government. Culture is as important as any other form of education.

NO RELIGION whatsoever in any public place. Even the mention of it gets someone fired, with the exception of them wanting to practice their religion PRIVATELY.

NO SEARCHES with a warrant whatsoever. NEVER!

Not only are guns legal to own, but any ARMS, that includes tanks, rocket launchers, and nukes, yes, nukes. If the government has 'em, the PEOPLE should have 'em, so that if the government gets out of hand, the PEOPLE can take over.

I could go on and on, but you get my drift.
This is what *I* call leftist to an extreme!

[Tom Joad]

148. There was nothing **Moderate** about supporting a war that has cost

a million lives.
There is nothing moderate about supporting its continuation.

[GeneCosta]

151. The Far Left

As an anarcho-communist I'm offended to be compared to monarchists. :]

[Tom Joad]

154. "Far Left" should be defined as those who thought that the Iraq War

was a bad idea before the Iraqi people resisted.

You know, like it was okay to oppose fascism after Pearl Harbor, but it was "Far Left" to fight the fascists in Spain. "Premature anti-fascists"

I define myself, by the above criteria, "far left"

[klook]

156. American political discourse covers the gamut - from conservative

to extremely conservative. (Paraphrasing Jello Biafra.)

[durutti]

157. There really isn't a "far, far Left" in this country.

Well, there is, but it's very marginal. The United States is unique among "developed" countries in never having had a mass-based socialist (in the broad sense) party. Compare this to, say, France, where open Trotskyists regularly get seats in parliament.

[defendandprotect]

158. dupe

dupe

[defendandprotect]

160. And in regard to the planet and survival of our species, how far "left" dare we go -- ?

Can we demand that corporations give up the activities which create Global Warming?
I think we can ---

Can we overturn corporations and their charters --- ?
Yes, we can ---

Can we nationalize oil and other natural resources and take them
out of the hands of private families controlling them?

Yes, we can ---

[defendandprotect]

159. Let's look at it this way, the Founders were of the far "left" --- what would you call them?

And what was the "right" at the time ---

I think that's all pretty clear ---

[pnorman]

161. Here's what David Edelstadt ("left-libertarian") wrote in the latter part of the 19th Century:

"Already I can see our golden future
when the state will be crowned;
Socialist policemen will crowd every corner
From the president on his throne
To the sheriff tightening his rope
-All will be socialists
What do you say to such a happy prospect?"

Dreamers though many of them were, Anarchists had a much clearer vision than their authoritarian counterparts in the socialist movement.

pnorman
Full Disclosure: My own score in that Political Compass test was:
Economic Left/Right: -7.50
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -4.92

[EOTE]

162. Damn good post! K&R.

That meme annoys the hell out of me. It's great to see someone demonstrate how ridiculous it is.

[mac2]

165. The far right and far left aren't even close in "badness"

You can never be too liberal but can be too controlling and tyrannical.

[pingzing58]

166. It's not easy being on the left in Texas

[windoe]

167. Far right are much more common than far left

these days, seems this talking point meme is meant to derail the left, and cause us to debate this moot point.
-Actual Extremists often use violence as a means to either end, whether it's the overcontrol of the far right or the lack of control of the far left.
-Most people in this country are law abiding hard working people that differ in ideologies and religious preferences, and lifestyles. To suggest otherwise is an attempt to validate the recently drafted repressive fascist laws meant to criminalize thought, philosophy, and discourse.
-Beware of this slippery slope people!

[7horses]

169. Far left...

would be socialism. Far right is fascism. But when have we ever had a far left candidate elected in this nation? Most of the U.S. population is in the middle, thus in the General Election both parties move to the middle, then do what they want when elected.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

170. Far left would be authoritarian socialism or communism

Not true democracy.

[FiveGoodMen]

171. I don't know.

If left means socialist, then extreme left probably would impose their will whether we wanted it or not (what you said).

If left means liberal (i.e. respect for civil liberties, personal choice, justice for all) then it clashes with authoritarianism.

Righties scare each other into lock-step voting with images of us liberals on the 'far left' creating a dictatorship, but for the most part, far left Americans are for more freedom, not less. We just don't want corporations free to walk all over us, so we believe in accountability. But too many of us run from the wing-nut definition of 'far left' and wind up not really being liberals at all.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

181. No, far left means the same as far right

Leaders imposing their will on others. With conseratives, that would be unregulated markets, corporate takeover of the world, etc.

On the left, that would be something like Russia or even Cuba where a group of people or even one person controls the government for the "good" of the people (and generally having a far higher standard of living than the rest, although nothing like the far right.) The end justifies the means just as it does on the far right. Of course, this comes with total socialism.

I detest both ends, and prefer a mixed economy with good social programs and very regulated capitalism.

[FiveGoodMen]

188. Says who?

Seriously, there are plenty of people who've pointed out that past generations of lefties in other countries have ended up acting just like the authoritarians on the other side, but you claim it as a matter of definition.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

190. Ummm...aren't we all sharing our opinions, here?

Although I do believe my opinion is backed up by facts.

No civil rights. No democracy. Murderous leaders to maintain control. Entrenched poverty disguised as sharing of wealth. Etc.

The first three sound vaguely familiar to you? :(

Peace.

[FiveGoodMen]

201. No, you were telling me THE definition of a phrase and I was asking who defined it.

[onwardupward]

172. look at what the people in Russia have lost.

Under a communist government, the Russian people had guarenteed health and education benefits.
The economy was kept stable by making rational scientific predictions of needed expansion.
There were no scientific impediments to stem cell research, evolutiary science.

When they overthew the socialist system they only got the crazy crime ridden society of Putin.

I think the many jobless, health care impaired, scientifically crippled people of Russia could tell you that there is a difference between the far left and the far right.

[slackmaster]

175. Funny, I don't know any Russians who want to go back to that system

Of course they've all immigrated to the USA.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

186. Yes, look at what the people have lost

Under the communist government -

Shabby hospitals and severe shortage of medicines, treatments, technology, etc.

Fucked up centralized control of everything. Bread lines and shortages of food staples. Shortages of common goods like shoes.

A so-called middle class that was so poor many folks couldn't afford a new pair of shoes but every few years.

Such severe shortages of housing that it was COMMON for several people to squeeze into tiny, tiny apartments. (I've seen these apartments. Ask me about them. I've been to Russia and Sarajevo in the former Yugoslavia. Most of them - old, decrepit, poorly maintained made our military baracks look like they were designed by Frank Lloyd Wright.)

Houses in the countryside were generally decrepit, and some were nothing more than shacks with outhouses. Think Appalachia. (Don't we rail against that kind of poverty?)

(Sure, by the time I saw this housing, the "wall" had fallen, but this is how people lived under the previous system. )

Leaders that condemned many people to gulags, and other people to horrible asylums with few rights to defend themselves.

Higher education only to those who professed allegiance to the leading party.

No civil rights.

Secret prisons.

NO DEMOCRACY.

Living in fear.

Yeah, the far left looks pretty damn scary to me, too.

And this article on the housing shortage in Cuba is...umm....interesting. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/31/world/americas/31cuba.html

[pnorman]

210. What Gorbachev clearly wanted for the USSR,

was something as close to the Scandinavian Social Democracies as could be arranged. This would have been eminently "do-able", and would have had the overwhelming support of the Russian people. And there would have been NONE of the brutal injustices that the Russian people ultimately endured. But the USSR would have STILL remained as a powerful counterweight to unfettered Global Corporatism (I hesitate to term it "capitalism"). So instead, what they got was the "Shock Doctrine".

I've listened to Naomi Klein's book of that title TWICE, and believe that she made a VERY compelling case. And I'm tempted to buy the paper version of that book, if only to facilitate web-searching. But so far, it seems to be right on target.

pnorman

[jeff30997]

176. Yep.

I agree.

[amb123]

180. Political Moderation when our Constutution & Bill of Rights is threatened IS COWARDESS!

LIBERALISM FOREVER! FASCISM NEVER!

[femrap]

183. I always remind the wacko

rightwingers that Jesus was a liberal! That really bugs 'em.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

184. The far left is as bad as the far right, but in America it's far smaller.

Stalin and Mao were arguably as bad or worse than Hitler and Franco.

However, the distance between the Democratic party and Stalin is massively greater than the distance between the Republican party and Franco.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

187. Very good observation. Excellent.

[proud patriot]

195. Agreed ... We are the center . the far left is marginalized

The right likes to call us Democrats the "far left" but that is completely
laughable ..

I certainly don't want communism .. I support regulated capitalism
while maintaining for "the general welfare" (see Constitution) of
American Citizens.

:patriot: in other words Ron Paul hates me :patriot:

[midlife_mo_Jo]

199. I think that's promoting the general welfare

And while I don't think the constitution says we must provide, I think it "allows" us to provide. In other words, I disagree with repubilcans that social programs go against the constitution. With time, I believe our needs and ability to address those needs may change and do change.

[lwcon]

185. Please help spread this meme

A word for the very thing you're talking about: http://www.correntewire.com/equivalating

[slackmaster]

191. Example of a far-left AUTHORITARIAN idea for those who don't understand the concept

Or who say we don't a functional far left in this country:

California wants to control home thermostats

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2664211

[midlife_mo_Jo]

194. Well, in all apartment buildings the

Soviet government controlled the thermostat. For this I'll give them credit. They did keep the people warm.

Just sayin'

[slackmaster]

197. The government set a one-size-fits-none temperature and imposed it on everyone

For the greater good, of course.

:sarcasm:

[midlife_mo_Jo]

198. My trips were after the "wall fell,"

but the government was still in control of heat. Damn. It was so hot in our hotels and apartments that after the first trip we knew to pack summer clothes even though we were going in winter!

Yep. All for the greater good. :(

No communist here.

[Solon]

203. Actually that sounds like an example of Moderate Extremism...

for the need to control of individual behavior. Seems like you have no fucking clue what the "far left" actually is. California, like all large states, are run by Moderates, so you can't blame some "far left" for stupid shit Moderates do.

[slackmaster]

212. The majority of the CA legislature is all about social engineering

Controlling more and more aspects of peoples' personal lives in the interest of making everyone equally miserable. It's classic leftist ideology.

"Moderate Extremism"? There's nothing remotely moderate about government taking control over the environmental conditions inside of a private residence.

Maybe the CA legislature isn't far left enough for you, but it seems pretty far out to me.

:wtf:

[Solon]

215. So California is home of extreme leftists?

Since when did this happen?

The entire damned country is CONSERVATIVE compared to the rest of the world, California may be considered "far left" to you, but to most of the rest of the world, they are center-right, at best. What you are describing is authoritarianism, not a left or right ideology at all. The fact of the matter is that you have no clue what a "far leftist" thinks, most of them don't give a flying fuck what you do in your own home, as long as you don't hurt other people.

Also, I'd like to see where you found out that social engineering is a classic leftist ideology? Links please, or you are full of shit.

I used the term "Moderate Extremists" simply because moderates are just as likely to have authoritarian tendencies as a leftists or rightists.

[slackmaster]

216. Not as extreme as Cuba, but compared to the rest of the US they're pretty far left

What you are describing is authoritarianism, not a left or right ideology at all. The fact of the matter is that you have no clue what a "far leftist" thinks, most of them don't give a flying fuck what you do in your own home, as long as you don't hurt other people.

What you describe as far left is what I call libertarian.

Having government control peoples' thermostats sure the hell isn't a far right authoritarian idea. The far right would just decide that some people get heat and others don't. It may not be as far left as a place like Cuba where the government decides where you live, but it's rationing, and pretty freaky far left.

I used the term "Moderate Extremists" simply because moderates are just as likely to have authoritarian tendencies as a leftists or rightists.

There's nothing moderate about most of the CA legislature.

BTW - Inability to maintain a civil conversation is a sure sign of an extremist who's just had his or her ox gored. Sorry if pointing out the truth about the extreme left offends you.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

218. Solon wasn't comparing California to the "rest of the US".

For example, a lot of people in Nebraska and Indiana think Ben Nelson and Evan Bayh are "pretty freaky far left".

[Solon]

219. You would have to state a truth first...

You are thinking of political positions as one dimensional, along a line, which is simply not true. Where would an anarcho-syndicalist fit in your version of the political spectrum?

[slackmaster]

220. No, they're at least two-dimensional - Left/Right and Authoritarian/Libertarian

Maybe Thoughtful/Clueless as a third dimension.

You're desperately trying to disavow the thermostat idea because even you can see that it's obviously stupid. Not moderate, just dumb. But it comes straight out of the command Socialist implementation book - Ration to make everyone as equal as possible. A command Fascist government would simply let the poorest people freeze to death. A libertarian government would allow the market to work out a solution based on supply and demand.

Where would an anarcho-syndicalist fit in your version of the political spectrum?

In the sewer.

[Solon]

221. So now California is Socialist?

OK, that's just nuts.

Also, do you have an excerpt of this "command Socialist implementation book"? You know, so that I know you aren't making shit up.

[slackmaster]

226. That is a Straw Man

I did not say that, nor have I ever. The California legislature leans strongly to the left. To place it on my other dimensions, it's also somewhat authoritarian and largely clueless.

Also, do you have an excerpt of this "command Socialist implementation book"? You know, so that I know you aren't making shit up.

All you have to do is look at the history of the Soviet Union and the way things are done today in Cuba, where many basic necessities like food, gasoline, and housing are rationed.

It's not a literal book, Solon. It's a figure of speech, like when someone talks about a "playbook".

Thanks for the opportunity to educate you.

[JerseygirlCT]

192. yes, I agree with you.

And I'm also tired of "moderate" now meaning pretty far over to the right...

[eib1]

193. Damn straight.

There are not two extremes in this country, there is only one extreme and saying the “far-left is just as bad as the far-right” over and over again does not change the reality that it is the right-wing that has been working to destroy this nation.

It's about time. I'm sick of hearing about the loony left.
I've seen more powerful irrationality in conservatives any day.

[km7368]

200. different perspective on the "far left" term

When people say the "far left" is just as intolerable as the "far right", I think oftentimes they mean the intolerability that tends to come from both sides. I agree with your position completely, I think that all the far-left stands for is admirable, far more than far-right values and issue stances. To me, the thing that gets to me about people who often label themselves "far" on either side, is the fact that oftentimes they are not willing to even look at the other side, to understand where they come from, or even where moderates come from. So for me, its not so much the actual stance they take on issues; and certainly not all those who identify themselves "far left" are closed-minded toward other ideas. However some people are, and unfortunately they tend to represent the group.

[NashVegas]

205. If the Far Left Was In Power, It Would Be As Bad As the Far Right

But we aren't there.

[GeneCosta]

209. Socialism and communism, at least in the context of its

adamant supporters, are quite anti-authoritarian. Anarchists, libertarian socialists, social democrats, anarcho-communists, and technocrats could and do form a coalition with little problems..

To me "far left" means opposition to the state and capitalism. Nothing wrong with that at all!

[Echo In Light]

213. Right. "Socialism" has been maligned along with "liberalism"

Three decades of corporate right wing media will have that affect.

[1awake]

223. agreed...

Most American's hear socialism and think communism. When they think communism, they instantly think of the old Soviet Union.. food lines, no jobs, no rights or freedom etc. I think this is of course wrong, but that doesn't stop it from being true (as far as what people think).

[Orsino]

222. They've never seen the Far Left...

...except in blurred snippets of arrests at protest rallies, perhaps. The government is run by the right-wing Democratic Party and the far-right GOP, who are in turn run by far-right money.