What feminism ISN'T (Feel free to add your own):

[blondeatlast]

Feminism isn't:

Expecting all women to do what you would do in difficult situations.
Disrespecting women who don't do what you think they should in any given situation.
Disallowing others to make choices you wouldn't.
Objecting to pure ambition in women, even if manifested or even gained in ways you personally don't approve of.
Reading Camille Paglia--the world's premier self-loathing woman.

I find myself in the very uncomfortable position today of dedending my least favorite Democratic candidate--all because some people think feminism is all about letting others influence how you go through life and the choices you make.

I marched with my mom for the ERA and abortion rights and am shocked to see progressives fall for this misogynistic thinking.

We're smarter than that, DU. Just please stop it and let's rip the candidates apart for what matters, maybe? :shrug:

[NashVegas]

1. Wordy Wordy Wordy WORD!

..

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. making a woman suffer for a man's sin. seriously.

he cheats, she suffers publicly and privately. thats bullshit.

[blondeatlast]

18. That's what inspired this (as I'm certain you guessed).

As I've said, I don't care for HRC as a candidate, but I applaud her strength through a very public attempt to humiliate her family.

She's got guts--and I admire real guts in anyone.

[never_get_over_it]

108. One thing Hillary Clinton DOES NOT have is GUTS

if she had guts she would not throw her finger up in the air to see which way the wind is blowing to make a political decision, if she had guts she would stand for SOMETHING other than election, if she had guts she would have voted against IWR, if she had guts she would have supported Russ Feingold's motion to censure the freak in chief, if she had guts she would have LED the effort to fillibuster the Alito nomination, if she had guts she would have voted against Kyl LIEberman, and yes if she had guts she would have even kicked that lying cheating husband of hers to the curb instead of keeping him around for political capital

Hillary does not have guts she has political ambition - period. Guts is when you stand for something politically unpopular when you KNOW it is the right thing to do.

And so you know I marched for the ERA too - drove more than once from Central NY all the way to DC all night long to attend both ERA and Choice marches - moved to Northern VA and started my political activity there attending an ERA vigil held in front of the White House every Wednesday on my lunch hour, I lobbied state legislators - I've been a feminist since I was about six years old - so my issue with Hillary is surely not her gender - it is her complete LACK of political COURAGE and leadership.

and so you understand this is the straw that broke my back where HRC is concerned:

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1016-20.htm

"My bottom line is that I don't want their sons to die in vain... I don't believe it's smart to set a date for withdrawal... I don't think it's the right time to withdraw."

That quote sounds exactly like what the few Republicans I talked to that week said. Making sure that our children did not die in "vain" sounds exactly like something George Bush says. A "date" for withdrawal? That sounds like Rush Limbaugh to me. That doesn't sound like an opposition party leader speaking to me. What Sen. Clinton said after our meeting sounds exactly like the Republican Party talking points I heard from Senators Dole and McCain.

This we can't bring them home because we don't want the ones who have already died was EXACTLY what the freak in chief was saying at the time - and it is exactly when Hillary lost me FOREVER....

And yet another example of her courage and leadership -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/14/AR2006031401519.html

Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.) brushed past the press pack, shaking her head and waving her hand over her shoulder. When an errant food cart blocked her entrance to the meeting room, she tried to hide from reporters behind the 4-foot-11 Barbara Mikulski (Md.)

[BoneDaddy]

115. I find it funny what people are willing to overlook

regarding Senator Clinton because she happens to be a woman. Well said.

[meow2u3]

113. Damn straight!

That's better known as blaming the victim, something rapist sympathizers routinely indulge in.

For pukes to blame Hillary for Bill's cheating on her is blaming the victim of adultery for the sins of the adulterer.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

3. It isn't about being "unfeminine". It's not about discounting men.

MKJ

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Feminism IS

thinking for yourself as a human being, and demanding that all human beings have the same rights and opportunities to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Feminism is not automatically supporting or not supporting a candidate based on their gender. The issues that the candidates support and their history of either walking their talk or flip flopping should also be taken into consideration.

[lapislzi]

5. WORD to a power of infinity

Senator Clinton is held to an entirely different standard because of her gender (thanks, mondojoe), and that is unacceptable.

Although I admit to having a soft spot for Camille Paglia, as she attended my alma mater.

[bemildred]

6. I object to pure ambition in anyone, and I will read whatever I like. nt

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

7. Spoken like a true feminist!

:-) MKJ

[bemildred]

10. Well, I'm a guy, an old white male, but yeah, I think feminism is great.

Always have.
:hi:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

12. LOL, I'm married to a feminist man, you guys are AWESOME!

:toast: MKJ

[Stuckinthebush]

123. Males can be feminists

I'm one.

If you support the critical analysis of the production of gender and gender roles in our society then you are a feminist.

[Triana]

8. It isn't about "hating men"

It's about hating being DEFINED by too many men (and even other women). Then, being lambasted and denigrated based on those definitions.

LOOK at what they've been doing to Hillary lately - that is the epitome of it.

[blondeatlast]

11. EXACTLY. Here we sit, supporting other candidates, and yet seeing that

what's happening is setting ALL of us back because they are targeting a candidate we don't even support.

I don't like HRC, but I've experienced all of this in my own life--and now it seems okay to apply the same pathetic standards for political gain.

I prefer to fight my battles with what matters.

[Triana]

30. I've experienced it all my life too....

...and I see Hillary going through it and it really pisses me off. I am not an HRC supporter either - but I sure can relate.

And yes it IS setting us all back.

My choices of who to vote for aren't based on anything but who I think will do the best job - period. I can't stand someone else TELLING me what I think or why I chose who I did. They never ASK - they TELL me what I think. Grrrrrrrr!

It's the "Don't ASK - TELL" policy of defining women, their intelligence, thoughts, choices. It's arrogant, presumptive and frankly, abusive. To cap that, it's just Bullshit.

[zanne]

86. If you think it's bad now...

Hang on to your hat. It's going to get down and dirty if she's nominated. The Karl Roves of the world will have a heyday. I'm not saying that Obama would have an easy time either, but I think that many men see her as a threat.

[Triana]

103. What'd be worse is if the American Taliban candidate wins - Huckabee...

...that royal ass will have women in burkas. They won't be allowed jobs, education, property ownership, the vote, to go outside their homes without a male escort, nor access to ANY type of reproductive choice. We'd live our lives barefoot and perpetually pregnant, and in servitude to men - or we'd be killed.

[zanne]

117. I totally agree. nt

[Breeze54]

9. I look at the candidates stand on the issues to decide

I look at what is between their ears, not what is between their legs.

Thanks blondeatlast, good post!

K&R

[rucky]

13. dissing stay-at-home moms. n/t

[blondeatlast]

15. Any mom trying to do her best--and I'm a stay-homer myself.

Being a mom is hard enough--we need to support each other however we can.

[GreenPartyVoter]

55. Amen. It's all about the power to choose our own destiny!

[AnnieBW]

14. Bra-burning and hairy legs

Those are the two that piss me off. I think a bra was burned ONCE during the Sixties, and that was in conjunction with other restrictive clothing like girdles. I went to a womens' college in the mid 1980's, and ALL of us shaved our legs. Even the lesbians!

[blondeatlast]

17. Heh! I'm a dyed blonde, four inch heel wearing, once a month at the salon feminist--

and I'll happily kick misogynist ass in my Kenneth Coles when necessary!

[lildreamer316]

24. AMEN, sister!! n/t

[tekisui]

84. Hell Yeah!

Thanks for this thread. Hillary Clinton isn't my choice, but these displays of sexism cause my respect and admiration for her increase to the point that I look forward to a possibility of electing a woman to the WH.

[Hatchling]

20. Feminism isn't about bra burning.

It's the power to decide whether to buy a bra or not. It's the power to have your own damn bra company, if you want.

[blondeatlast]

22. YES! I love that response!

Beautiful! :applause:

[OKNancy]

112. Every social movement needs their "bra-burners"

Although you make fun of them, in the early 70's the bra burners were the ones who called attention.
They were the out-front people... like Cindy SHeehan, code Pink and any other shit-stirrer.

Bras were burned many times. Hell, even at the University of Oklahoma when I went there.
( 1967 - 1971 ) Oh, people made fun....but it brought attention.

[SidDithers]

16. K&R. Good post...nt

Sid

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. Having to conform to every platform position of certain women's special interest groups n/t

[blondeatlast]

21. Such as?

Any example would be greatly appreciated. I don't think any one "special interest group" of women or boxer-wearers or vegetarians or dog owners claims to speak for all of them.

Like, I'm okay with NOT representing the Eagle Forum, but its members may not agree with me. I don't claim to speak for them as a woman... :shrug:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. NARAL n/t

[blondeatlast]

25. That's a woman's special interest group? How so? I see the freedom to make medical decisions

privately as an important civil right. :shrug:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

37. It's a single/narrow issued lobbying group which bases its arguments in women's rights

That's a women's special interest group if I ever saw one.

Although I will give them credit for actually using the words "abortion rights" in their name, instead of dancing around with flowery and overbroad rhetorical terms.

[blondeatlast]

39. The right to decide on medical procedures is a woman's "special" right?

Beg to differ.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

41. When "medical procedures" = abortion....

and those who favor abortion rights are claiming that it is the woman's right to an abortion and the woman's right alone, then at least by their own argument, yes.

[blondeatlast]

43. I've never, ever, heard anyone claim that. I'd love to see proof.

From a MAINSTREAM source, plase.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

45. How about the bumper stickers for starters?

"Keep your laws off MY (i.e. the woman's) body"

Anyways, I don't see NARAL spending much time talking about the right to gastric bypass surgery or facelifts. They are for all intents and purposes a single-issue special-interest group. (Which they have every right to be.)

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

47. They include all aspects of women's reproductive health, including contraception, which

is is under attack by the RW fundies, as well.

"gastric bypass and face lifts" were not in the conversation, until you introduced them. Telling, that.
MKJ

[blondeatlast]

49. Good catch, that.

:thumbsup:

[Tommy_Carcetti]

51. They are "medical procedures", aren't they?

And I know about the contraception issue, but it's the term "abortion rights" which is in the group's name.

[blondeatlast]

52. And again, I nyou never presented an ounce of evidence that they claim to speak for all women.

Medical privacy is a civil right. Just because I don't like the advocate group doesn't mean I don't support the goal.

If you are a Right-to-Lifer, fine, but if you think NARAL or one of your groups speaks for all women, think again.

Neither one does nor do they claim to.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

54. That's fine with me, but...

I think it is foolish to say that for one to be a feminist, they must be pro-abortion rights. Which I think sadly is often implied by some who advocate on the abortion rights issue.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

56. Feminists are for women's control of their own reproductive health. If a woman opposes abortion,

no feminist will fault her if she doesn't have one. MKJ

[Tommy_Carcetti]

60. I don't think....

...."women's control of their own reproductive health" (in your words) is a mandatory pre-requisite of being a feminist. I personally think one can be an advocate for women without consideration of that one narrow issue one way or another.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

61. A "narrow issue" to you, perhaps, but most women of child bearing age have more than a passing

interest in it. MKJ

[Tommy_Carcetti]

62. But can you agree that one can be a feminist regardless of their position on abortion? nt

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

63. As I said, no feminist would fault a woman who opposed abortion for not having one.

One thing feminists agree upon, is that every woman is entitled to make that type of decision for herself, without a law telling her, or her doctor, what she can or cannot do. MKJ

[Tommy_Carcetti]

65. *Sigh*, let me rephrase it.....

Can you agree that one can be a feminist regardless of their position on whether or not abortion should be considered a legal right?

[mondo joe]

67. FYI, that's the same poster who in another thread diminished asme sex marriage

to only "a dicey social issue".

It seems others civil rights are rather inconsequential.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

70. Love the mischaracterization there, buddy....

I don't believe I ever said the issue of gay marriage is ONLY a dicey social issue (somehow implying that I believe it is merely frivilous and unimportant). I said it was A dicey social issue, which it is. It provokes a lot of debate and argument, which dicey social issues do. Like, for example, I don't know--abortion.

By the way, I have no problem with gay marriage. I merely think giving the social norms of the day and the quiet prejudices a lot of people hold, it's counterproductive to simply switch to calling for gay marriage (read: not "civil unions" or marriage associated rights) overnight, because you'd inevitably face a backlash and everything would get set back.

[mondo joe]

95. I'm content for others to judge the characterization for themselves. NT

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

53. LOL.

You asked what they meant by "keep your laws off my body" and I told you. Women have the right to control their own reproductive health, if they so desire. That's all. :-) MKJ

[ismnotwasm]

71. What the fuck are you talking about?

Reproductive rights are a long shot from plastic surgery or gastric bypass.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

72. You just answered your own question. n/t

[ismnotwasm]

73. No, you aren't making any sense

Tell me, do you have a viable uterus and ovaries? Ever experience a pregnancy, abortion or miscarriage? Take hormones to prevent pregnancy? Take hormones to GET pregnant? Know one single fucking thing about what it's like? What it really feels like? Know about ALL the choices that pregnancy may involve, not just terminating one?

Don't tell me about your mom or your girlfriend or you sister or whatever. Do YOU know?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

74. My point is...

Abortion rights advocates tend to speak in generalities, such as saying it is simply about a "medical procedure", which could include anything from abortion to gastric bypass to an apendectomy to lazer wart removal. That's whitewashing the issue, which is abortion, i.e. the termination of the life of the embryo/fetus, which is an entity with a seperate DNA from that of the woman. Just saying it is about a "medical procedure" or "choice" or even "reproductive rights" is not really being honest about this very serious, controversial and ethically complex issue (which unfortunately has been reduced to a meaningless shouting match between people who proclaim themselves to be "pro-life" and "pro-choice").

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

75. You seem to want it to be illegal. Am I right?

On edit, thank goddess the Democratic platform continues to fully support this privacy issue.


MKJ

[Tommy_Carcetti]

77. I want it to no longer be viewed in terms of black and white thinking...

I.e. it should always be legal or it should always be illegal.

Too many abortion rights supporters think of the abortion issue as only being about the woman. Too many abortion opponents think of the abortion issue as only being about the unborn fetus. The fact of the matter, it is about both, and a balancing of interests in the different situations may call for different positions in the law as per the situation.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

79. Wow, those are some major linguistic gymnastics. I guess that's as close to a "yes" as you're

willing to come, at least in this thread. :-)

And, I'm grateful folks like you currently have little or no say in what I choose to do for my health. :toast:

MKJ

[Tommy_Carcetti]

81. You can ask an overbroad question....

....it doesn't mean I'm going to give you an overbroad answer in response.

You might as well ask me "Why do you hate America?" while you are at it. :eyes:

[ismnotwasm]

76. Bullshit

You know very little about pregnancy. Sounds like you've been looking at forced birth billboards.

A Personal Pregnancy is Something Growing in MY body. Something that can kill me, or cause permanent harm in certain circumstances. If I don't want it there, I'll get rid of it. Women have been making this choice for millennia, despite "serious, controversial and ethical complexity". Always have, and always will. I prefer to make that choice in a safe and supportive environment.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

78. It may be IN your body....

but it is not you. Hence, there are competiting interests, thus the ethical complexity. No one challenges the right to have a wart removed because that is truly your body. But because it is much different that, there are different considerations.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

82. Competing interests? OMFG!

You're hopeless. How do you reconcile, seeing as you're supposedly a Democrat, the fact that platform formally supports choice, 100% of the time?

MKJ

[Tommy_Carcetti]

83. Because I'm not a single issue voter.

And the abortion issue does not define the Democratic Party. Sorry, but there are dozens of other platform issues that I'm sure you and I both agree on that don't rhyme with shmashmortion.

If in an alternate universe the Democratic Party stood for everything it stands for today except it opposed abortion in its party platform, would you still be a Democrat?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

89. Ah, march out the hypotheticals. I'm done, we've established you're anti gay marriage and anti

choice.

Now you want to play fantasy games, as in "what if", as a distraction.

Sorry you're threatened by women, gays, etc, I can't fix that since those are your issues, not mine.

At least you should be up front instead being all weaselly about it, but you're thinking you can somehow couch your views in a way to win your arguments, instead of just saying that you believe abortion and gay marriage should be illegal and/or banned.

I wish I could say I enjoyed talking to you, but, well, :shrug: Good luck to you and all that.

AND, HERE'S TO FEMINISTS AND THE SMART, SEXY, PROGRESSIVE MEN WE KNOW AND LOVE! :yourock: :toast:

MKJ

on edit, You actually said gay marriage was "counterproductive" which may not be "anti" but certainly isn't "pro".

[Tommy_Carcetti]

97. I at least tried to answer your question....

Sad that you couldn't at least entertain mine. Absent the abortion issue on the Democratic platform, would you still be a Democrat? I sure hope you would. I sure hope you are not a single issue voter. Because I am not.

And good job on distorting my views. Apparently now I believe gay marriage should be illegal and/or banned. What's next? Maybe now I believe that we should torture prisoners of war. Maybe I believe in the flat tax. Maybe I believe in privatizing social security. Please tell me what else I apparently believe unbeknownst to me. (And for the record, I don't believe in any of those things, nor do I believe that abortion should not be a legal right in all circumstances.)

Oh well. I still did enjoy talking to you, because I like talking and debating with my fellow Democrats. :toast:

[blondeatlast]

88. Because he's getting his info from his own "special interest" group.

The false comparison to a cosmetic procedure is a dead giveaway. As one who faced a high risk pregnancy and chose to carry to term (with marvelous results), I can tell anyone it's more liike facing chemo.

[blondeatlast]

87. You are getting talking points from your OWN special interest group. I've heard 'em before.

Look, Mr. Right to Life, I had a VERY high risk pregnancy and had previously been uncomfortable, but not outright opposed to, abortion. FWIW, I knew (as most women truly do) exactly when I conceived, too.

Then the sad reality hit me square in the face--I was facing a severe risk to my own life in bringing a child into this world. I would need almost 24/7 medical monitoring and severe restrictions on my activities. I came down to the wire and almost had the abortion--and was racked with pain and anxiety up to the moment I decided not to. While I see my beautiful som's eyes every day and thank God I didn't do it, I sure as hell wouldn't fault any other woman, facing that rather grim prognosis, who'd choose to do otherwise. When it's a matter of one's own life--it DOES become the same as an appendix or a tumor. That's just the facts.

No woman ever considers it like a "cosmetic" procedure--despite what your loony own special interest group is pushing as the latest talking point.

Do you have a uterus? Will you/Can you ever expect to face such a decision? I doubt it. You are safe in making your moral judgments on women because you'll never even come close to experiencing and unwanted pregnancy.

I welcome those who have a moral opposition to abortion and to some degree remain one myself. But I'll defend my sisters' rights to face a decision that would put most males right 'round the bend if they had to face it.

You act as if it's easy. Maybe from one who can only experience it through a "special interest group's" talking points, it is. But for women it's like choosing to have chemo or not.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

93. Special interest groups....

Special interest groups on both sides of the abortion issue have done the abortion issue the greatest disservice imaginable. They have made it one great pissing contest. "Pro-choice" implies "anti-choice"; "Pro-life" implies "anti-life"; and the other side is either women haters or baby killers. That's what it has become.

You gave me a great personal story as to why you believe what you believe, and I truly respect that as your belief. But that's not the face of the abortion debate. The face of the abortion debate are two bumper stickers: "Abortion is Murder" and "Keep your laws off my body." Neither of these stickers probably any convinced anyone to change their mind; they simply stand as quick soundbites which could just as well read "This is what I think. Screw you."

The mindset that infects the debate has gone as far to be used as a wedge and a weapon. If someone may oppose abortion as a untouchable, unlimited legal right--even if the opposition to abortion might only exist in certain circumstances--then they are not a feminist. Then they are not a Democrat. And so forth. It is akin to saying to a Christian Republican who supports abortion rights that they are not a Christian or they are not a Republican. And is just as much a fiction.

The special interest groups of both sides on the abortion debate are killing rational, civilized debate. I want no part of that.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

96. Of course he acts as if it's easy. And, he wants to inject himself right into the exam room

and dictate the conversation and decisions a woman and her doctor make.

He's unhappy that he's left out of that, since he considers it a scenario of "competing interests", although he doesn't explain why he should have ANY say into what I choose to do with my health, and, make no mistake, it is a HEALTH issue.

I once heard abortion described as wrenching in the way that a wild animal chews off its leg to escape a trap, or a guy saws off his arm to escape the combine. But, posters like him just know that it's a decision a woman, or girl, makes without his control, and he can't abide by that.

:hug: blondeatlast, you're tough, brave and I salute you! :patriot:

MKJ

On edit, wouldn't it be great if most, if not all, pregnancies were wanted and welcomed? And that would happen with easy access to contraception, providing our kids informative, NON JUDGEMENTAL sex ed and, most importantly, women truly being equal citizens.
I can dream, can't I.
:-)

[Tommy_Carcetti]

120. Here. I'll make it easy for you.

*Ahem*

Oh, Glory be! Abortion is murder! You will burn in hell for your beliefs! The death penalty for anyone who has an abortion! God will smite you! You women stay in the kitchen and keep popping out those babies! (Except if it's dem A-rabs and homo-shecksuals! They can be aborted!) Now get and be subservient like the good lord said, now will you! Glory, glory hallelujuah...

(I trust I don't need to add the sarcasm tag for you, at least I hope...)

There. Now you don't need to feel so conflicted about hating me and characterizing me for my beliefs. Feel free to go to town and hate away. I'm sorry that it apparently makes you frustrated or angry that someone who identifies himself as a Democrat, a liberal, a progressive, or even *gasp* a feminist could perhaps make a reasonable, rational argument on the touchy, complex issue of abortion without using the words "God" or "murder". But I'm just going to tell you that you have to get used to that fact. Not everybody is going to fall neatly into your little marked boxes. Not everybody who you might agree with on things 90% or 95% or 98% or 99% of the time is going to agree with you 100% of the time.

You talk about wanting people to be NON JUDGEMENTAL, and that's a great thing to want. But charity begins at home. I have not cast dispersions on you personally or tried to put false arguments in your mouth. As a fellow Democrat and liberal, I would only hope that you do the same.

Now, if you excuse me, I've got my daily prayer vigil for President Bush that he be successful in killing all the Muslims, and after that I've got my weekly Klan rally to go to. :eyes:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

121. If the shoe fits. :-) Enjoy your rally!

:hi: MKJ

[Tommy_Carcetti]

122. Apparently it's hopeless

:banghead:

Whatever. If you are so fucking insecure about your own beliefs, that's your problem. I wash my hands of it.

[Scout]

102. I think you are just your average everyday anti-choice, controlling asshole...

YMMV

:shrug:

[lizerdbits]

48. Who is trying to legally restrict gastric bypass and face lifts?

If anyone wants those procedures they should have access to them.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

50. self delete.

not only wrong poster, but wrong thread. :blush:

[blondeatlast]

58. It seems to be that kind of day.

Holy batpoop--this place is off the rails!

No worries. :rofl:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

64. Oh, it is indeed!

I have to tear myself away, again, and go do some domestic goddess chores.

PS will we be seeing the IMSB folks hittin' this thread, as icing on the cake, :rofl: MKJ

[mondo joe]

26. K & R. You're the best. NT

[blondeatlast]

29. Nah. Just inspired--and PISSED OFF!

:hi:

[mondo joe]

27. Holding women to a different standard than men - either higher or lower.

[Annces]

28. Feminism

is not setting making a set of criteria about what a woman is, because the possibilities are limitless.

And I have had older so-called feminists critique me on everything stereotypical. So my allegiance to feminism is about believing a woman is just as important as a man, though she may have different ways of being in the world.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. How do you reconcile #2 and #5?

Just curious.

[blondeatlast]

34. Good catch, actually. Too late to edit, but you're correct.

My very, very bad.

Props for that. :thumbsup:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Hey, cool, good on ya.

I can understand being mad at Paglia. Everybody makes mistakes.

[Hello_Kitty]

32. Voting for the candidate simply because she's a woman. nt

[LostinVA]

33. You said it

And, Obama is MY least favorite candidate, and I stuck up for him today against a racist hit job OP.

THAT'S what progressives do: watch each other's backs.

:pals:

[blondeatlast]

36. EXACTLY what this post is really about. The racism and sexism is so ingrained

that many times we just never even notice it but it hurts us all.

We need to call it out every time we see it and we need to recognize it to do so.

Thanks--I'm supporting neither one at this point but am sick to death of the manipulations used against any of them.

[LostinVA]

38. Have you heard this?

The last two days, I've been called a troll TWICE because of calling people on stuff like this... including calling Gloria Steinem a RACIST. Oh boy.

[AX10]

40. I saw that one.

[blondeatlast]

42. Up until NH, I kept telling the latecomers that '04 was worse. I'll no longer say that.

As long as the "guests" try to take our eyes off the prize, I'll call 'em out as best I can.

Fasten your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy ride...

[LostinVA]

44. I know -- it's much worse

I try to stay away... but I can't!

[Hidden Stillness]

46. Increasing Anger at Unfair, Unequal Treatment

Gloria Steinem made a great point during the NY Times opinion piece that was posted on the DU thread a few days ago, that if Barack Obama or supporters refer to race and racial bigotry, etc., they were treated as "healers," "inspirational," etc. If Hillary Clinton or supporters referred to sex/gender and sexism, etc., they were always treated as "polarizing," "divisive," "whining," "forcing" people to accept feminism, etc. Because only males were telling this story, we the women were never going to win. We could only be attacked for supporting ourselves, or crushed by giving up the fight--there was no way we could express any of our own perspective, and succeed, and not be swarmed with male media attack and laughter. This was the worst part of the attack on her (which continues unabated, as if, as always, they learned nothing); not that she was criticized for policies, corporate ties, etc., anything real, but that the treatment of her was so hateful, so prick, so "what the fuck is the bitch still doing here, guys?" They missed the New Hampshire result, because they were so dik-likky cheery for Obama, that they paid NO ATTENTION WHATSOEVER to anything women were thinking. The historical first, that a woman has won an actual Presidential Primary, has gone completely unremarked on! They completely took it away from us, as they do with all of our accomplishments.

I was another who did not support her, but when they did the "male club rapes the bitch" routine again--and to a Presidential candidate, a Senator! like no matter what you are, you are still a shit-bitch to us--then I was so furious, I was exultant, so happy, so thrilled, that she won. Feminism means that people have to face their bigotry, and not just slit your throat and win every time--and God help you when you make people face their ugly attitudes. The media, of course, HAS given Obama, and Edwards, a free ride--no one can honestly claim that the treatment has been at all fair. They are trying to get rid of the women, and don't even hide it, because there ARE only males in the male media.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

59. HS, that's right and I hadn't even realized it. While Sen Obama was getting props for breaking

barriers, although Jesse Jackson preceded him in winning states primaries in '88, NO ONE remarked on the groundbreaking fact that a woman had won a state Presidential Primary.

Wow, wow and triple wow. I missed that mind boggling fact, myself, insofar as the media didn't so much as whisper of its significance.

MKJ

[countryjake]

66. I'm guessing you weren't around for Cong. Shirley Chisholm back in '72...

who was, historically, the first woman to win a presidential primary. She was also the first Black person to ever win a presidential primary.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

90. Oops from me. She deserves so much more recognition that she receives.

Thanks for the correction. MKJ

[Hidden Stillness]

92. You are Correct! I Remembered that she won Delegates, but Totally Forgot NJ Primary

You are correct! I had completely forgotten that. I was too young to vote then, but have vivid memories of trying to get my Mom to vote for Shirley Chisholm; (she favored the great progressive Ed Muskie). I did a little research, and found a site, http://www.americanwomenpresidents.org/the_campaign.htm and found that she had actually won the New Jersey primary; totally forgotten, and possibly did not notice at the time, I do not really remember now. I do remember that she ended up with a few hundred delegates.

You might also recall Shirley Chisholm's statement that she had always suffered more discrimination as a woman than as a black. I clearly remember that she had as much feminist support as black support, or support as a New Yorker, fighter on poverty issues, or etc. Gloria Steinem campaigned heavily for her, and raised a lot of money for Chisholm's campaign.

[crispini]

57. K & R

[Elspeth]

68. Two words: Laura Schlessinger

Definitely NOT feminism.

[OzarkDem]

69. Agree

Looks like the "divide and conquer" GOP is busy at work again.

I certainly hope none of our Dem candidates campaigns resort to this kind of shoddy campaign tactic.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

80. Feminism IS NOT anti-feminine or anti-male.

Feminism is acknowledging the equal value of gender.

[tekisui]

85. K&R!!!

[Ellen Forradalom]

91. Feminism isn't corporatism.

Feminism isn't equivalent to what used to known as being a 'career woman.'

Feminism isn't a hierarchy. It isn't a game. We don't win unless all win.

Feminism is not a zero-sum game. Feminism expands the game for all.

Feminism is not making a decision that a woman is competent to make for herself.

[defendandprotect]

94. Feminism is simple: "Anti-domination of anyone by anyone else" --- Marilyn French

So -- that would also include economic democarcy ---
democratic socialism ---
and cooperating with nature ---
'cause we've near destroyed our planet and species "being really smart about really stupid things"!!!

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

98. I'll adopt THAT!!!

:applause:

[ozone_man]

100. That's a definition I can stand behind.

No war, no corporatism, respecting the environment and all biodiversity.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JerseygirlCT]

101. Yes. Well said

And Paglia? Ugh. Self-hating, hate-filled, miserable excuse for a person.

Hillary Clinton is not my first choice, either. But how about putting forward good positive reasons why you support someone, not ragging on her with dime-store psychology? I thought that article was nonsense.

Chose, (or don't chose,) Clinton because she has the positions and the personality that you think make the best president. This one-dimensional look at our two leading candidates as "WOMAN" or "AFRICAN AMERICAN MAN" is getting so damned tiresome!

[Djinn]

104. That's YOUR feminism

Don't assume everyone shares your views on Paglia

[alfredo]

105. It is not a creamy whipped topping.

[woo me with science]

106. nor a floor wax! nt

[alfredo]

107. That's so true.

[Yael]

109. Voting for a DLC candidate just because she is a fellow woman

[lala_rawraw]

110. Adding mine...

Freeing women from the boundaries men have defined for them, only to force them into roles they do not want and judge them for not wanting those roles.

[mistertrickster]

111. What feminism ISN'T: relevant.

As soon as academic feminists went nuts and started talking about "phallo-centrism" and "gender inclusive" language, they blew it.

They should have focused on THE MONEY and instead they got caught up in the obsession of who was doing what to whom sexually.

They blew it.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

114. no they didnt. most businesses use gender inclusive language.

so clearly that worked.

most people are far more aware of gender related issues than they used to be or are, in parts of the world where there is no feminist movement.

yes, we havent achieved 100% success but we will get there.

[Echo In Light]

116. Feminism isn't eager to join corporate America/assimilating to man's most loathsome characteristics

[Darth_Kitten]

118. Feminism isn't...........

a convenient scapegoat for unhappy women who get kicked around a bit too much in life, can't or won't identify what's really bugging them, or have boyfriends of the moment/husbands who don't really like women very much.

Just my say this a.m. ;)

[Echo In Light]

119. Conversely, some women w/a lot of competitive pride can be attracted to classic jerks/misogynists

Yet they don't perceive it as such, of course. It's the ambition drug that people are programmed to salivate over in our corporate culture.

[Darth_Kitten]

128. I'm just tired of women who have been kicked down.....

by guys taking out their problems on other women. The "I can't strike back at him so I'll dump on another female". Hate that.

Women who let some guys treat them badly, yet hold their female relatives and friends etc, to a much higher standard.

[blondeatlast]

124. This post is in response to this thread--where I found myself defending HRC

against sexist judgments of other people.

She's not my candidate for damn certain, but this is blatantly sexist and I couldn't let it go.

Edit: I suppose a link would be helpful, yes? Sorry 'bout that! :rofl:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2649462&mesg_id=2649462

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

125. Wow,

even the big guy weighed in.

More wild and crazy happenings here on the DU.

BTW, I completely understand why HRC would WANT to stay married to Bill.

He's brilliant, he's charming and they've known each other for decades and I don't doubt they have a deep, abiding connection with each other.

What an exciting life the two have led together. He has always given her props for her smarts and her humanity. Their daughter is a lovely, self confident young woman, who very clearly loves and admires both parents. Why should she break their family up?

One of the best movies I ever saw about the complexities of marriage and "cheating" was "Terms of Endearment". Here was a couple where both had cheated on the other and yet, they still loved and cared for each other. Granted, the wife character was the stronger and more pragmatic of the two, which probably isn't that far from real life. :-)

MKJ

[blondeatlast]

126. The sexism in that one was just mind-numbing. If there's one thing we mustn't do, it's judge others

on our own moral code.

I admire Hillary Clinton's ambition and emotional strength but am uncomfortable with some of her policies. That OP's premise was the same thing used against Clinton 1 and it was BS then (even though I wan't a Bill fan either).

I think there's too many who don't remember what we've been through to be where we are.

HRC dosn't get my primary vote, but the fact that I can choose between a white male from a working class background, a black male, and a woman, and a genuine progressive voice this year gives me a tremendous sense of pride and hope that what my parents worked for as Democratic activists will bear fruit for my son.

It's just astonishing--and all too easy to forget in the heat of the moment.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

127. Wonderful description of our choices. And,

Sen Clinton is not my first choice, either.

However, like you, I am stunned that rather than look with some objectivity at her record, her votes, what she says about various important issues, from Iraq, to health care to international diplomacy and so on, posters on a Democratic message board go after her because Pres. Clinton's affair or because she'll "throw plates in the Oval Office", or other sexist, irrelevant tripe.

I've been surprised at myself, as well, for defending her so steadfastly, but I really do think latent sexism is coming to the surface with her run and we all know when we see it.

Keep fighting the good fights, girlfriend, :headbang:.

I'm off to change more hearts and minds today, can't wait to see this board tonight when I come home. :-) MKJ

[bean fidhleir]

129. Feminism isn't about mindless support. Some women are creeps.

Feminism isn't about being like men in skirts.

Feminism is about self-respect, being our own persons, being tough and caring, and trying to make things better for our having been here.

[Ilsa]

130. Totally with you! nt