One reason I think some women don't like Hillary...

[Freedomofspeech]

My ex-husband had many extra-curricular activities, just like Bill Clinton. I stayed for several years because of my children and my financial situation, but I got out the minute I could. I look at Hillary hugging Bill, and I think how could she stay with that man when he public ally humiliated her time after time. I would have so much more respect for her if she would have said, fuck you, I'm on my own and I can do this on my own merit. I believe she stayed because of the power and money and that really bothers me. I have discussed this with many other women, and they feel the same way. Go ahead, have at me.

[mondo joe]

1. Was it declared that women don't like Hillary?

How fickle of them to then vote for her.

[Freedomofspeech]

4. Sorry, I meant some women.

[Bitwit1234]

30. The reason people don't like Hillary

is because for 15 to 20 years the republicans have drummed it into peoples heads to hate hate hate her.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

55. yup.

[Buzz Clik]

62. It's not that simple.

I am quite close to two Hillary "can't stand her" types. Both are powerful, successful women.

The first is a hard-core, old-timey Republican. She's not afraid of strong women, but she despises Hillary because of her previous hard left politics and her willingness to manipulate.

The second is a life-long Democrat. She use to love Hillary during the Bubba White House years, but she has soured on her due to her morphing into a pendular left- then right-swinging moderate. She finds Hillary to be insincere.

Neither of these women pay the slightest attention to the hard right and their despise of Hillary.

[Raffi Ella]

66. exactly.

The propaganda about her is part of everyones imagination and vocabulary now.

[NoSheep]

94. Was it declared that all women love her?

This absolutism is tiresome.

[mondo joe]

152. I don't know - I never suggested such a thing so why ask me?

The OP, on the other hand, did originally post that "WOMEN" don't like Hillary and then later changed it to "SOME WOMEN".

[Skinner]

2. Would you vote for Bill Clinton if he were the nominee this year?

(Assuming that the constitution permitted it, of course.)

[Freedomofspeech]

9. Not with Obama and Edwards in the mix..

Don't get me wrong, the whole Monica thing didn't bother me, except for the chain of events it set off. I just wish Hillary would have tried to make it without him, that's all.

[Skinner]

21. Listen to what you are saying.

You were not bothered by "the whole Monica thing." So apparently, you do not hold it against Bill Clinton. Yet you hold it against Hillary Clinton. IS THAT FAIR? The whole damn thing is Bill Clinton's fault, and you are penalizing Hillary Clinton for it!

People say that their opposition to Senator Clinton has nothing to do with gender. But yet gender is there, right below the surface, if only you care to look.

[mondo joe]

25. It's funny that per the OP women don't like Hillary because of her marriage - but there is no

similarly generalized counterpart for why men don't like Obama or Edwards.

[Freedomofspeech]

40. I would love to see a woman as president,

all I said was that I would have liked to have seen her make it without him. If a woman were president now, we wouldn't be in this hellish mess we are in.

[Skinner]

46. You did not address my point.

Is it fair to let Bill off the hook for his sexual indiscretions, while penalizing Hillary for how she dealt with the situation that Bill created?

[TornadoTN]

121. I might be reading this wrong, but I think the point they are making is this:

I could be off base, but I think he/she has more of an issue with the fact that she seems to be riding Bill's coattails rather than the marriage issue. I can't really disagree with that because she has made Bill almost the "face" of the campaign (at least until the defeat in Iowa). But sometimes politics is like that and riding the coattails is the order of the day, for better or for worse.

As for the marriage issue, you are right, it is very unfair to hold it against her. However, I think this goes back to the whole "Hillary is staying with Bill for her own political ambitions" mantra that we heard way back during Monicagate and before. Right or wrong, that's something that we will all have to face should be become the nominee.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. so bill cheats and hillary has to pay both publicly and privately.

:puke: just fucking lovely

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. If the shoe were on the other foot

Would it improve or reduce his chances at public office to acquiesce to his spouse's misbehavior?

Where I come from, a husband who tolerates an unfaithful wife is not treated with respect and sympathy.

This is an equal-opportunity phenomenon.

[tavalon]

138. Equality has come around on that one

Don't yo worry, if Obaba's wife has an affair or Huckabee's wife has a tryst, it will reflect badly in each situation. No real gender issues there.

Now, you just wait until a poly couple gets into the WH, then it's guaranteed to get complex with secondary partners and tertiary patners and whether everyone's testing is up to date and which safer sex practices need to come up for review at the next safer sex camp David Summit. You don't even want to the see the heads spinning at the protocol office, I promise you!LOL

You people have no idea! That reminds me, it's time to send out annual papers reminders.

[Vinca]

13. No, I wouldn't vote for Bill Clinton. Funny, that was an exit poll question.

I'm somewhat in agreement with the OP. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing, but considering the serial nature of the former President's philandering, you have to look toward a motive for staying. IMHO, most women would only put up with this kind of public humiliation once.

[LostinVA]

27. As Is aid, judgmental -- I learned a long time ago to not assume things

About other people's relationships, because I was usually wrong.

[Annces]

3. Women voted for her - what are you talking about

Don't expect others to live out your personal beliefs.

[calico1]

5. I think you are right at least about some women,

but I don't think it's right. There are a lot of women out there who have stayed with husbands that have cheated on them. And ditto for men and wives. I remember when this was going on people practically demanding that Hillary divorce Bill Clinton! And I thought to myself "who the hell is anyone to think they can demand that anyone leave their spouse?" Nobody knows what goes on in anyone else's marriage. I personally would have probably kicked him to the curb, but I have friends who have dealt with affairs and are still married and I don't respect them less. It is not my place to decide for them or to think I have a right to decide for them. Nor is it my place to decide for Hillary Clinton. I never did get and still don't get that there are people out there who think it is their place to decide that Hillary Clinton should have divorced Bill.

[shimmergal]

77. I agree, Calico1 and also

I know, both from personal experience and from several years' work in PWP (Parents Without Partners), there are many things that spouses can do that are far, far worse than simple infidelity. Even than serial infidelity. Neither Hillary nor Chelsea were humiliated by Bill, or to our knowledge hurt by him; it took the Republicans' impeachment spree and Ken Starr to do that.

[LostinVA]

6. I will have at you: what a sexist, judgmental attitude

And, I know lots of women who like her, both on here and IRL, as they did in NH: women from all walks of life and every creed, race, sexual orientation, etc.

And, answer Skinner's question: would you vote for Bill Clinton?

[William769]

7. Shame on her for saving her marriage and forgiving her husband.

What has America become?

[Freedomofspeech]

15. That was HER choice....

I'm just saying, having been in that situation, I would have liked to see her strike out on her own.

[mondo joe]

18. Sounds like you resent her for not living out something you wish you had done.

Get a boundary.

[Clark2008]

38. She did do it - the OP clearly stated she got out as soon

as she could.

HRC could have gotten out sooner because she was financially solvent, where the OP was not.

In any case, I agree with the OP. I have a problem with that because I kicked out a cheating husband when I was a stay-at-home Mom with absolutely no money. :shrug:

[mondo joe]

45. Perhaps she resents herself for waiting, so she's pissed at HRC for not doing what she

didn't do.

But HRC isn't her. She's not just a projection of women whose husbands cheated. She has her own life and her own issues.

She's not responsible for your choices in your life.

[Hoof Hearted]

92. Reality. The VAST MAJORITY of marriages deal with at least one infidelity - some make it through

others do not and you have no business telling others what they ought to do with their marriages based on the bitterness you feel about your own. You don't HAVE their marriage, you are not IN their marriage and you have not lived their lives. It is petty, and reflects a distinct lack of emotional maturity to punish Hillary Rodham Clinton for not living out your own personal divorce fantasy. As Mondo Joe said, get a boundary.

[Marrah_G]

19. But she is not you and you don't know what was happening in their personal life

[LostinVA]

20. You have no right to project things from your life onto hers

Or even onto anyone else's.

[Freedomofspeech]

28. It's just my personal opinion, I was just throwing that out here..

I didn't mean to cause so much anger this morning.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

90. sexism and double standards should cause outrage of a liberal website.

[Phillycat]

76. It's like religious zealots, isn't it?

I don't believe in it, so you can't either! :eyes:

[William769]

26. You need to worry about yourself and your own self pity and not worry about other people.

If that sounds harsh it's meant to, you posted this for one reason only and it seems to have blown up in your face.

[Freedomofspeech]

33. Trust me, I have no self pity...

excepting for being beaten up so badly this morning!!

[William769]

35. Self inflicted wound maybe?

[Fredda Weinberg]

8. I believe she stayed because she wanted to ... she made more $$$

than he did. You've shared a sorry story and if you want my sympathy, by all means.

[Marrah_G]

10. I never faulted her for staying and I admired her strength in having to face the public

I do not know many people who could go through that and not have it break them.

[mondo joe]

11. Think maybe you're projecting your own marital issues onto hers? Bill isn't your ex, y'know.

And just because you stayed because you felt you had to doesn't mean that's what she did.

[RiverStone]

125. Ultimately, none of it is any of our damn business

I don't believe the Clinton's marriage (be it good or bad) is germaine to their ability to govern.

A candidate's personal life is just that, personal.

I don't get why any partner (man or woman) would want to stay with a partner that cheats repeatedly on them - but that's their business.

It is a non-issue for me politically.

[book_worm]

12. now will you explain why some men don't like Obama or Edwards?

[Freedomofspeech]

17. It's a personal thing, just like I was trying to explain.

[Freedomofspeech]

22. Wow, I guess i woke everyone up this morning...

I was at a Peacelinks meeting yesterday, and we had this discussion. Just wanted to share it and not offend Hillary supporters so much, sorry.

[mondo joe]

52. It's not an offense to Hillary supporters, but to thinking people in general.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

57. its not just hillary supporters. its also people who believe that you shouldnt be sexist in your

judgements.

[blondeatlast]

99. I decidedly DON'T support HRC, but your OP is sexist as hell. nt

[LucyParsons]

14. Hillary earned more than Bill from about 1979 until he was president.

She was also on the boards of several corporations (one of the reasons I won't vote for her), and was a rainmaker in the Rose Law Firm, an Arkansas old boys' club.

She was a national name as First Lady, and had high approval ratings and loads of sympathy during the whole debacle.

You're right - she should've left him then. I think most people (certainly most people I've talked to, including my GenX friends and Baby Boomer parents and relatives) think that she stayed because they're a dynasty - to consolidate power. But I do think she could've made her own way. She had serious reservations about marrying Bill way back when for these very reasons.

Moral of the story = staying with cheating scumbags doesn't pay.

$0.02

links:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A05E2DB163AF935A15751C0A962958260

[Hoof Hearted]

101. Your friends are sexist and judgmental. Nice that they can armchair quarterback other peoples

marriages so effectively whilst patting themselves on the back. I wonder what they say about you when you're not around.

[Buzz Clik]

16. I know two intelligent, informed women who cannot stand Hillary.

One is a Republican, the other a lifelong Democrat. Neither will vote for her under any circumstances. They both simply don't trust her.

[SIMPLYB1980]

59. And I know people who won't vote for Obama or Edwards.

[Buzz Clik]

60. Perhaps you could start your own thread so that your comment wouldn't be out of place.

You might review the OP.

[SIMPLYB1980]

63. No I like this thread.

[LeFleur1]

96. I Know...

some jealous women. To them any other woman who appears on the work scene is a threat. Any woman in the neighborhood who doesn't toe their line is a threat, and they hate her guts. It's one of our serious downfalls. Thank the Goddess there aren't many of them.

AND many women choose to stay with their cheating husbands. Jackie Kennedy was one of them. Jackie Kennedy was a strong woman. Who knows why she chose to stay, she did. It didn't dampen my admiration for her, even though I didn't understand it.

Hillary Clinton is a qualified and able candidate for the Presidency.

[fasttense]

23. Yes, personally I would have left the man.

But, I really feel a person's marriage is none of my business. I've seen some very strange arrangements between married people that seem to work. If it works for them, who am I to force my opinions onto them?

[demnan]

24. I'm not saying I wouldn't vote for her

but that is something I don't understand about her. And I think you make a good point. We want to understand our candidates. Maybe in spite of everything she just loves him. Perhaps she's a better woman than I am. But I don't understand how she stayed.

[Freedomofspeech]

31. Thank you, that was my point.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. some people do not think sexual transgressions are a big deal

maybe hrc is one of them.

maybe she believes sex and love are unrelated. i dont know and i dont care.

its so sad that she gets punished because her husband cheated on her. its seems so unfair.

[mondo joe]

36. Just more of a VERY vile sexist double standard.

And posts like the OP make DU more like a weird support group session than a political message board.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. posts like this made me change my avatar to support for HRC.

[mondo joe]

42. Me too. And I can't tell you how much I dislike having a shared avatar.

But it seemed the thing to do as a show of support.

Incidentally, your use of the avatar is what clinched it for me, yesterday.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. aww thanks!

[Benhurst]

44. If she Hillary gets elected president and Bill cheats on her again,

I think her approval ratings would go through the ceiling if she dragged him into divorce court and sued him for all he's got.

And I'm saying this as a guy.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

47. so she should lead her life based on her approval ratings? not what she values?

[graywarrior]

32. I toyed with those feelings a bit and finally figured out that I was letting

my own dysfunction get in the way of judging how other women handle their relationships. I think Hillary's self esteem is high and she has a strong ego, plus she really leads her own life. whatever bargain or deal she and Bill worked out together to keep their marriage going is none of my business. I think they make a good team.

[TheCowsCameHome]

39. That's just what some of the women in my family are saying.

That she kept him around just to further her political ambitions.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

41. Maybe they're French.

Clin-ton.

[Windy]

48. that is offensive... I can't support hillary because of her position on the issues

you're comment is ridiculous. Just like assuming that all women will vote for HRC simply because she is a woman..equally deplorable.

[Sparkly]

49. How is this for ANYBODY to judge??

What's the difference when it comes to a political campaign??

[durrrty libby]

50. judgmental dumb women piss me off to no end. grrrrr

[Le Taz Hot]

51. No, the reason some woman (and men)

don't like Hillary is because of her pro-war, pro-corporate policies. What she and her husband do with their marriage is none of our business. It never was.

[ellenfl]

56. ding, ding, ding, ding . . . i think we have a winner! (raising hand) eom

[terisan]

53. Some women take the marriage vow seriously, some women think it is ok to break it for some or any

reason.

The marriage contract is a contract-and law-differing in each state-governs it dissolution.

It is also-to people who marry in church-an ethical bond-and many of them respect the 'until death do us part" section. People who profess Christianity may follow the 10 commandments on adultery (one of the 10 major sins) and also follow the example of Jesus who spoke against divorce (what god had joined together, let no man drive asunder) and his example regarding the woman about to be stoned for adultery (let he who is without sin cast the first stone) and his example of forgiveness (go and sin no more).

People have no business judging others on their respect or disrespect of their religious vows. If she respects her marriage vows that is her business.as for the sexual liasion-Bill Clinton is responsible for his behavior, Monica Lewinsky is responsible for hers.

Generally I think people should butt out of the sexual acts of consenting adults.

[dmallind]

58. So if you don't marry in church you don't have an ethical bond? NT

[terisan]

82. My point: the law may not recognize the finality of "until death" but individual may view as binding

I consider such views as possibly a chosen ethical commitment by the individual even though there may not be a legal requirement to to remain together until death parts the couple.

[dmallind]

85. OK - but why the deliberate modifier to limit ethical bonds to church marriages? NT

[terisan]

102. How's this: The law does not require an ethical commitment but individual may choose an

make a personally binding ethical commitment that the law won't enforce by requiring an individual to stay married.

[dmallind]

106. That would have been better yes - but you limited this possibility

saying that the ethical bond was dependent on which building you deciuded to get married in. It smacked very deeply of the insulting and untrue idea that ethical behavior is the unique preserve of the religious (and even the specifically Christian - since most religions do not use churches).

[terisan]

107. The thread is about Hillary Clinton's reason for not ending marriage. She was married in a church

thus i referred to the possible reason for a person marrying in church to not divorce. She had, at the time of speculation that she should, referred to her religious belief and her Methodist faith.

If you want to start a thread about religious buildings and non-Christian religions and divorce, please do. I chose to respond to this post about this person.

I personally was never married in a church, dislike the standard ceremony and draw from many traditions including atheism for my personal philosophy but this post was not about my personal philosophy.

[dmallind]

141. I can drop the issue with one final comment

I was merely responding to your phrasing which limited the idea of an ethical bond to "THOSE" married in a church. It seemed like a general comment rather than one spoecific to HRC. I apologize if I misconstrued the intent, and will take you at your word that I did so.

[MedleyMisty]

73. I got married in a drive-thru.

I feel pretty ethically bonded to my husband.

[terisan]

86. Exactly. The law might release you but your ethical standards commit you. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

130. The backyard in which I was married 25 years ago did not confer an absence of an ethical bond. n/t

[seabeyond]

54. i agree with your interpretation. BUT i dont give a shit about her personal, wouldnt effect

my vote. the reason i do not want her as president has nothing to do with her and bills personal life but everything to do with how she would do the job. i do not have a lot of empathy for a mate that looks the other way. totally their choice to make living that life, dont whine to me. i personally chose the fuck you i am outta here choice, but really is each their own. i just wont feel sorry for, or listen to any whining if the choice is to stay and be fucked.

[cyberswede]

61. My mother-in-law actually felt that way.

She's 85 years old, and told me something similar to what you suggest. Except she wasn't thinking of Hillary staying for money and power, rather she blamed Hillary because it must be her fault that Bill was missing something in their relationship and had to look elsewhere.

So, I said, "Well, I tend to think it's the philanderer's fault when they philander - not the spouse." We discussed it a little more, and she came around and saw my point. I have no idea who she supports now (my father-in-law is solidly for Edwards), but at least she was able to rethink the blame thing.

thx - cs

[gauguin57]

64. We have NO IDEA what goes on in the Clinton marriage -- nor SHOULD we!

They might have had an open marriage since Chelsea was born, for all we know. They certainly wouldn't have been able to tell the press.

They are clearly a TEAM in some profound way ... whether they have everyone's idea of a perfect marriage is nobody's business but theirs. I only care how she will run the country (with his experienced cousel in her ear).

Hillary's not my top choice for nominee (though I will support her fully if she IS the nominee), but it has NOTHING to do with the fact that she chose to stay with her husband.

[Raffi Ella]

65. None of your bussiness though,is it?

If he beat her,was a danger to her pyhsically,then I would agree with you.But that's not the case.

If they had just married,hadn't built a life together,hadn't had similar ambitions...if there weren't the bond that a marraige of many years creates then I would agree with you.

But that's not the case.

Bill is who he is.She loves him and I applaud her for living her life the way she deems appropriate for herself.

No one can judge another on love.No one.

[WinkyDink]

67. Apparently you read articles I don't, because WOMEN VOTE FOR HILLARY.

[in_cog_ni_to]

68. It's no one's damn business why Hillary stays with Bill or doesn't. It's their PRIVATE LIFE...stay

out of people's bedrooms. Why should it bother anyone why Hillary stayed with Bill? It's not your business. It's HER marriage and HER life, not yours....mind your own backyard.

Of course this does NOT apply to the HYPOCRITES in the repuke party.:)

[ozone_man]

69. Most feminists would agree.

I think what is most important to Hillary is to be president. Maybe the tears were real, but I think they were tears of disappointment that she might not actually get to be president.

But the Monica affair wasn't an isolated incident, but a continuation of a number of affairs. That she stayed with him is nore an indication of her political ambitions. And that is something that independent women usually find repulsive.

[mondo joe]

70. Most FEMINISTS? I think most FEMINISTS would reject this ridiculous sexist double standard.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

72. as a feminist, i think women should not be made to pay for the sins of their fathers or husbands.

sigh.

[blondeatlast]

75. This one does--and I don't care for her as a candidate. She was damned if she did

and damned if she didn't--and I admire her as a person for holding her family together during a very public attempt to humiate them.

And that "power and money" thing is totally sexist and it sickens me to see it being used to slam on of our own.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

71. most feminists would agree that a woman should be free to make her own choices

whether its to be president, to forgive ones spouse or to divorce ones spouse.

most feminists would not agree that these choices should be made by other people.

[ozone_man]

78. I understand that view.

But it's seen by many feminists, my wife for example, as being in an abusive relationship to achieve her ambition of being president. Winning at all costs, so to speak. Now I'd love to see our first woman president or our first African American president, but I want to see even more our first president who will take on powerful corporate interests, regardless of their race or gender. The president or first lady is a role model, and if she tolerates an abusive relationship, that doesn't set a good example.

I do know a very important feminist who supports Hillary, and it is mainly from the view of having the first woman president, that blacks got the right to vote before women did. I didn't disagree with that.

It's just one of those character issues, but not that important to me. What is very important to me is a candidate's political positions. A person's private life should not count so much, but now a days the media violates candidate's privacy. But a lot of people vote based on how they feel about a candidate, not solely on political positions.

[mondo joe]

80. So your wife thinks Hillary is in an abusive relationship, but it's HER fault?

And you think your wife is a feminist?

[ozone_man]

91. No, that she tolerates an abusive relationship.

That does not set a good role model for women. It was her presidential ambitions that made her tolerate that relationship.

On the other hand, I am very impressed with her ambition. But not her DLC political positions.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

93. its for her to lead her life. she shouldnt have to martyr herself to be a role model.

your wife has unusually high expectations of other women. men tolerate being in unhappy/unsatisfying marriage (bill clinton for example) for their presidential ambitions too.

[blondeatlast]

97. Exactly. Apparently these two are blessed with a "perfect" marriage--in which he's free

to speak for her... :shrug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

98. and she suffers both politically and privately for him.

[ozone_man]

105. She tolerates me.

:D

Btw, I also consider myself to be a feminist, if it's possible for a man to be a feminist. Being married to one, but also through living in a community with lots of feminists. It sensitizes you to women's issues.

[ozone_man]

100. Life is messy.

And I think most people look at Hillary Clinton's position taking many things into consideration. Being president requires an extraordinary amount of ambition and perseverance. So I would weigh that factor in with the rest of her character considerations, but putting much more weight on political positions.

It is probably a split between women who empathize with Hillary's position and women who feel she should have left he relationship a long time ago. Like I said, I was talking to a key feminist in my state, not about that issue, but about having the first woman president. You have to weigh all the factors. I'm a left wing Democrat, so I put much more weight on that she is a DLC Democrat.

[mondo joe]

108. You and/or your wife are confused.

If someone is abused they are the victim. If they arethe victim they are not the party to be held responsible.

If they are responsible, they are not the victim.

Also, HRC isn't running for Female Role Model of the year. No men are held to such a ridiculous standard.

[ozone_man]

111. Yes, but the victim should seek an end to the abuse.

I have no idea whether Bill would be back to his usual womanizing, but it is a pattern with him. Like I said, life is messy. I think just as many women will empathize with Hillary's strength and ambition as be turned off by the way she puts up with a relationship like that.

HRC isn't running for female role model, but like it or not, that has become part of the campaign. Since Nixon lost because of his public image on TV, and Life Magazine put Jack and Jackie Kennedy on the cover. I really wish it wasn't like that and that these debates would avoid talking about likability and get down to brass tacks.

We start to become more like Hollywood in how we elect candidates. Many presidents in the past would never be able to run, particularly the ones who were deists or atheists. All contenders need to be Christians now a days and talk about their faith openly. As we know, Hillary engages in faith politics, as does Obama, so she has to also expect that she will be graded on some of the other personal character issues she has. It's a slippery slope, but one that most top tier candidates seem to participate in.

[mondo joe]

113. So now victims are to blame for not rescuing themselves in a way you see fit?

How about rape victims who don't fight back? Do you blame them too?

Or kids who are beaten at home?

This is a VERY weird brand of feminism you claim.

[ozone_man]

115. No one is forcing Hillary to stay with Bill.

It is apparently her own political ambition that causes her to stay. Of course I would never fault a helpless victim, but Hillary is not helpless. So, if she wanted to be a better role model, she should kick bill out of the house and run for president. She'd probably win by a landslide. ;)

[blondeatlast]

124. Christ, I'm no HRC fan, but do you READ the stuff you are typing? "It is apparently her own

political ambition that causes her to stay."

What makes you say that?

From what little I know of you (even less than I know of HRC) I could just as easily claim that your feminist wife stays with you because you do all the dirty (read: political) stuff for her (you've spoken for her several times in this thread). I'm NOT saying that, but I have as much basis to claim that as you do for HRC and her marriage.

Please, don't repeat these RW ideas here--especially not to committed feminists (who, pardon me, speak for themselves). Don't tell us she can't stay in her marriage for any reason she and Bill damn well choose (and I believe they truly love each other, though I don't like either one of them one bit).

Good lord, where has my lifetime (and my mom's) of feminist activism gone?

Have we still not learned not to judge others? Haven't we learned that progressivism is allowing others to make their own choices without interference?

If this is 21st century feminism, spare me.

[crispini]

127. ZOMG!

Maybe -- just maybe -- her marriage is NONE OF YOUR BEESWAX!!!!!

Honestly. :eyes:

[mondo joe]

133. If no one is forcing her she's not a victim. She's not abused. She's just

living with her marriage.

I think you and your wife may be more nosy about her marriage than is seemly.

[ozone_man]

136. It wasn't my business until Bill got impeached.

And humiliated the Democratic Party. That was unjustified, but that's the nature of the privacy invasion that we are dealing with now. Presidents or presidential candidates have their personal lives scrutinized. I don't like it, but that's the way it is. Hillary is a good role model in many ways, just not when it comes to teaching women how to respect themselves in relationships.

[blondeatlast]

142. Only by YOUR definition. That's the part you don't seem to get.

I know women in very, very open marriages for both partners that respect themselves far more than pious church women (and I'm a churchgoer myself). They are strong, they can fend for themselves and their marriages are quite strong and happy.

YOU don't get to decide what is respectable--and judging women by your standards is decdedly unfeminist.

I'd love for you (or your wife, shoudl she care to speak for herself) to read and respond to this. Would you mind?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2651038&mesg_id=2651038

[ozone_man]

145. Regarding setting a national role model

a certain amount of conformity comes into play. I would really prefer not to know anything about the Clinton's private life, but that was forced on me and the country. I'm not saying that the press was right to violate that privacy, on the contrary, but it's the way it is at present. I will say that Hillary Clinton sets a wonderful role model by being smart, ambitious, powerful, but not when it comes to relationships, or feminism.

Regarding feminism, this is the definition I agree with:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2651038&mesg_id=2654620

94. Feminism is simple: "Anti-domination of anyone by anyone else" --- Marilyn French

So -- that would also include economic democarcy ---
democratic socialism ---
and cooperating with nature ---
'cause we've near destroyed our planet and species "being really smart about really stupid things"!!!

For me that includes being anti-war, which Hillary does not seem to be (enough).

Reverting back to a discussion with my favorite feminist (not my wife), I asked her about that, about her vote on IWR and Kyle/Lieberman. She had no answer for Kyle/Lieberman, a puzzle to her also, but she said in her opinion, Hillary is trying to look tough in a man's world of politics, to be convincing enough to be the commander in chief. So I asked if when she was in whether she would be more liberal, So she smiled, "I think so" she said.

Anyway, thanks so much for the discussion. It really is a good topic for discussion that doesn't require much political or feminist experience. We just need an opinion.

My own take on Hillary is that I would love to have a strong woman like her in office, if I didn't have political differences.

[mondo joe]

147. What emotionally stunted person looks to elected persons or their spouses to be role models

anyway?

[ozone_man]

148. All of those boys and girls who at five want to be president?

Ask Barack Obama. ;)

Just so you know, Edwards is my candidate, but haven't really decided who my second candidate is yet. I'm leaning toward Obama, but I like some things about Hillary. She's a strong woman for one.

[mondo joe]

150. Oh, I see - it's FOR THE CHILDREN. Nice Repub talking point.

:eyes:

[mondo joe]

146. So you think Bill humiliated the Democratic party (even though his popularity

remained high and the Republicans decreased) but you think Hillary is a bad role model?

Amazing.

What makes you side with the minority of Americans who thought Bill Clinton humiliated the Democratic party?

[blondeatlast]

143. Ah, but when you have wedded perfection you are allowed to.

(Exactly, MJ--this is kind of creepy, really.)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

81. winning at all cost is a very masculine trait. people hate it when they see it in women.

its sexist to have one standard for bill and another for hrc

[blondeatlast]

88. Then allow this woman to take your feminist wife to task.

Women stay in familial settings for any number of reasons, not just affection. So do men. I don't particularly care why consenting adults get married--as long as they are both good with it going in, there is no abuse, and both partners are content with the situation.

That "ambition" marriage meme is sexist--Hillary Rodham would have acheived remarkable things if she'd never have met Bill Clinton. Nevertheless, she did--and he's standing by her side now just as surely as she did his.

They are content and beyond that, there's nothing more for us to say as observers, IMHO.

By the way, I'm OPPOSED to Hillary's nomination right now and will remain so up until it's inevitable (if it is) but I'll call out a double standard anytime I see one. Your wife has been suckered into a very sexist way of thinking about ambitious women--and I welcome her to respond to this.

[lukasahero]

83. Not this feminist - this feminist thinks it's nobody's damn business

and a pathetic double standard to think less of Hillary for Bill's indiscretions.

[terisan]

89. Most feminists believe in indivdual choice, not in requiring the individual to follow the dictates

or opinions of others in living their private lives.

[krabigirl]

118. I'm a feminist and I disagree.

[blondeatlast]

74. She was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. And about that "power and

money" thing--that's utterly and completely sexist, IMHO. She obviously has the moxie to get by on her own--but she held her family together through a very PUBLIC attempt to humiliate them.

I don't care for her as a candiate, but I admire her for her strength and resolve. Your reasoning is sexist at heart.

[Bigmack]

79. My fundie S-in-L hates Hilary...

... because she's pushy. Women apparently aren't supposed to be pushy. They're supposed to be passive.

This from a woman who rules the entire extended family and household with an iron hand.

I personally like pushy women.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

87. me too. mostly because i like myself~

:hi:

[terisan]

95. if these pushy women would accept their subservience, we would be a great nation like Saudi Arabia.

[mondo joe]

110. It's amazing. Hillary is hated because she's pushy, because she's a victim, because

she's robotic, because she's emotional. Any rason she's hated has a mutually exclusive counterpart for which she's also hated.

Just amazing.

[Bigmack]

116. Don't forget... too centrist/too leftist. nt

[blondeatlast]

122. As a non-HRC fan (for now), I've noticed that too.

No matter what she does, it will be second-guessed.

Amazing how this issue has brought so much of previously bitterly opposed DUers together. I support another candidate, you and I have been united against many on the "porno" threads--yet I see so many people I've had BITTER disagreements with all here to combat this sexist tripe.

I love politics!

[knitter4democracy]

84. I think it's because she's a centrist.

I'm just sayin' . . .

[Raffi Ella]

103. Wow.you've opened up a wonderful discussion!

I am intrigued by the replies and comments,especially by other women in here.I'm not old enough to have lived in a world where a woman wasn't in full control of her life but I am one that has terminated an unwanted pregnancy and so appreciate on a gut level the women and men before me who fought for us to have full control over our own destinies.

I'm often taken aback when my own 'self reliance' and more assertive/aggressive characteristics suprises others,both men and women.I'm a woman who grew up with a single Mother so I didn't grow up thinking a woman had to get married much less needed a man for any reason other than that she wanted one.

For Hillary Clinton to stay- for whatever reason- with Bill is just her right to me!It is no ones business!She has every right to decide her own destiny.It doesn't matter if you agree with it or not.In my opinion she is a thoroughly modern woman,a perfect representation of a Modern Day Feminist.

So she's ambitious - You hold that against her?Ha!So her decisions may have been calculated...?Oh My!A calculating woman!For shame.How dare she!How dare she stay with a man who hasn't been perfect and shown her respect in such a way that society approves of!

In my opinion she has more guts and self respect than if she had left him!I LIKE tough Hillary.I hated seeing her cry the other day,didn't move me at all.In fact I thought it was part of the game of winning,what she needed to say at that moment to win - GOOD FOR HER!Didn't do a thing for me but hey,I admire her for it nonetheless.

The days of women being subjugated in anyway by society are over.Hillary is dead proof of that and I applaud her!

[Lorien]

104. Actually I admire her for sticking it out

and my father left my mother for another woman when I was seven. I would have rather had two parents that could have worked it out somehow; my father never became the faithful type, but his girlfriend of 30 years found ways of forgiving his trespasses. Everyone has feet of clay in one respect or another. There are worse things that can happen in a marriage than cheating, believe me.

I'm not a fan of Hillary simply because I don't like so many of her votes as Senator and her positions on the issues. I really don't give a damn about a politicians personal life (unless it's actually a life of crime), if they've seen a UFO or what their gender or skin color is. Their positions on the issues are what matters most to me.

[stanwyck]

109. I guess I must hang out with smarter women than you

since the women I know base their political support on who would do the best job for the country, not on who has the best husband/wife. And "hating" someone because he/she has a cheating spouse seems incredibly shallow.
You really need to meet some other women. The group you've been talking to doesn't represent our sex very well. We're hardly as pathetic as what you describe.

[Katherine Brengle]

112. I think her marriage has exactly nothing to do with her ability to govern.

I hate shit like this.

Like I just said in another thread, no matter what a woman does, it's never the right thing.

[Orangepeel]

114. why does she stay with him? why does he stay with her?

I don't judge or even try to understand other people's marriages. It isn't for me to say what should be a deal breaker for somebody else.

I'm not supporting Hillary. She's my third choice. But, when I watch Bill campaign for her, it is clear to me that he loves her, admires her, supports her and really wants her to win. I don't think it is about power for either of them (it's certainly not about money for her -- most of their lives he's been dragging her down financially).

I'm sure they have a deep, complex relationship, that is their's to deal with.

[krabigirl]

117. You're kidding me. HE cheated. My mom stayed with my dad after he cheated as well.

It's not a black and white issue. Why blame her? I was mad at my mom for a while, but there are many issues in marriages. Some people get over cheating, some don't. Maybe he went to counseling, like my Dad did? How the hell do you know?

Do you know what goes on in their marriage? Do you live with them?

[treestar]

119. But every case is different

You're judging on something personal, not on the issues. Maybe in her particular marriage, it worked out for her. We don't know that it is just the money and power, etc. Judging her like that is the same as supporting Bill's impeachment just because of his personal life.

[AlCzervik]

120. well maybe some women would look at you and wonder why you didn't get 2 jobs

and move out right away.

Are you privvy do what went on in the Clinton's marriage?

[kelligesq]

123. Oh good, vote for personality, marriage difficulties rather than abilities

sorry but the cult of personality is what got us Bush....people wanted to have a beer with him

I dont support Hillary because she has gone to far to the right, republican right...not because of her personal attachment to a man who cheats on her.

I would wager that more than 75% of women stay with men who cheat on them....and here's a clue : MOST MEN DO

[hisownpetard]

126. I felt the same way, and even though I feel she's worked hard and my view

of her has changed over time for the better, those feelings came out again when I saw her hugging him on-stage.

[maddiejoan]

128. Here's a different perspective

her husband risked his Presidency by lying under oath about a blow job to protect Hillary and family from further shame.
I'd sure stick with a man who risked his Presidency to protect my interests. Farfetched? Maybe --but it's no stranger than your version.

What did he have to lose by saying --yeah --Monica gave me a hummer. He couldn't have been impeached over it.
Hell --knowing Bill --he probably could have played it off with a televised speech about how sorry he was to the country and his family for his shameful indisgression.

Bottom line is --there are many ways to interpret why Hillary stayed. Your version is no more correct than mine.

[lumberjack_jeff]

132. I think the OP's basic point is that this is a widespread perception.

I find that hard to disagree with, because it has been put to me in almost precisely those words by more than one female acquaintances.

Fair/unfair is a different issue, but not really a political one.

[NashVegas]

144. It's Certainly a Widespread Dissemination

Among her detractors.

They keep saying that Bill humiliated Hillary, but it's always appeared to me that it's the sex-starved press corps that did the greater bit of that.

[marlakay]

131. One of many reasons

I feel she lied when she said she forgave him and went to counseling because of her daughter. Sorry but we all know in america she has stayed with Bill to become powerful and be either senator or president.

I felt if she had any balls because it obviously wasn't the first time he has strayed, she would have left him...but then she could never be president...

I have a feeling she told him, I will stay and you will do whatever it takes to help me get in office to make up for the humiliation...

and now after his heat attack and surgery I don't think he has the energy to jump after women he use to have or he would...

I think all the candidates want the job but she is so obviously power hungry it bothers the crap out of me and thats why I would never vote for her, but mostly because of how she didn't help Gore to win in 2000...I will NEVER forgive her for that even if she wins...

[Midlodemocrat]

134. Utter and complete horseshit. This thread is sickening.

How dare you presume to judge what is going on behind closed doors in a couple's marriage? She didn't leave, you should have left sooner, but that's why women don't like her? Do you even hear what you are saying? "You believe" she stayed for the power and money? And you know this how? I guess the thought that she might actually be in love with him never crossed your minds or the minds of your judgmental friends.

:puke:

[tblue37]

135. Sometimes women actually love their husbands, even when their husbands stray.

I am sure that Bill has a lot of appealing qualities, too, and they do have a lot of years together. I know many women who stay with straying men because they really do love them. And even though a man strays--and I am thoroughly disgusted with the public humiliation Bill put his wife and daughter through because of his selfishness--even selfish men can love the women they cheat on, and be loved by them.

I think it is presumptuous to judge the emotional content of another couple's marriage. Because of the RW funded smear machine, oppo research on Bill was far more intensive than that suffered by most cheating me, but that doesn't mean he is any worse than many others whose wives stay with them because even with all the cheating there is still genuine love between them.

We don't have the right to demand that a woman stop loving her husband of many years and leave him because he cheated on her. That is a very personal and emotional decision.

[kelligesq]

140. Absolutely, many American women after he cheated, also said

they wouldn't mind finding his slippers under their bed......so 60% of AM women
think he's a hunk...and you want her to throw him out because she couldnt possibly still love him, and she's only there fro the power?

duh.

[ismnotwasm]

137. Oh for God's sakes

Give women a little more credit than that, huh?

Personally I'm ambivalent about all the front runners, but I certainly will support her if she wins the nomination. I know women who like her, and support her because of her stance ON ISSUES just as I know women who do not, because of her stance ON ISSUES.

If she choose to stick with her husband after that disgusting Republican induced media circus that's her business. There have been women AND men who have made that same decision for a variety of reasons.

[K8-EEE]

139. Not all marriages break up when there is an infidelity

This woman could care less --

Anyhow....not everybody projects their own personal history on everthing, and makes important decisions by cutting and pasting it in somebody else's life. Everybody's marriages, relationships are unique and have unique strengths and failings. They worked it out their way.

Besides, she got the women's vote!

[jasmine621]

149. There just might be the inside chance that she loves the man and her daughter.

Just maybe. They have been through a lot together. Ambition is not a sin or a crime the last time I looked. "Pull yourself up by your own boot straps" might be considered as being "ambitious."

[GRLMGC]

151. That was the best choice for her.

You made the best choice for yourself. Everybody has that right.

My God, I don't even like the woman!