How to do better in this economy

[nadinbrzezinski]

Ok this is a post I did somewhere else. but this may help some of you... especially younger folk, who tend to use
the credit card far more than we do. (I thank my dad for this and yes once I was terrible at money management)

So here are some things that might help you.

1.- Write down every cent your spend for a month or two. This will tell you exactly where you spend your money. No, don't use fancy software, a pad and a pen will work thank you. Oh and include everything, yes that package of mentos and the coffee you bought for fifty cents, Include ALL.

2.- Seat down and see what is discretionary and what is not.

3.- Create a budget.

4.- Every pay day put your savings away FIRST... and try to hit 10% of your income. If you transfer it, you don't see it, you will not miss it.

5.- If you get a raise, try to continue living on YOUR PREVIOUS salary.

6.- Pay down your credit cards and pay them at the end of the month the moment they are paid up... oh and SAVE even for big ticket items and pay them in full. The interest alone will kill you. And there is further on this bellow


Oh and here is a very concrete example


Inflation has been through the roof locally... so I found that my money was not going as far as it used to. I needed to do something about it. So one fine day I sat down and asked "how much am I spending on coffee?"

Ok... I go down to the store to get groceries and they have a coffee shop there. I like their Latte... this is round numbers three dollars... ok that is 18 dollars a week.... I also like to go to the local coffee shop to write... add two more coffees there a day... that is 36... so the grand total is.. fifty four dollars, in fact a tad more, so lets say sixty.

Ok... this is just coffee... after I did the math, I am down to buying a cup of coffee ONCE a week, when we meet for the writing group... hell not even coffee, but either tea, as in iced tea, or English Breakfast tea. This went down from 52 dollars to less than five a week.

That is how you cut down discretionary spending.

Another idea... locally at the Price Club I can buy movie tickets for seven dollar each for the movie theater. When I go to the price club I buy several sets, why? the regular ticket is close to 20... for me and my husband... but we can spend fourteen to buy the tickets, allowing us the luxury of buying a drink at the theater and still keeping this at a reasonable price.

Oh and here is the one that shocks most folks... see that credit card... you know the one... pay it ALWAYS in FULL at the end of the month. If you don't have the money for any item, don't buy it. Massive example, we just replaced our computers... both were paid cash.

But, but... the interest alone is a killer. Do the math... for every moth you don't pay in full you are paying quite a bit of money... anywhere from 14% to 25% APR, depending on the card. Ugly secret, they try to make you pay over twenty years, anything, which means you pay for your stuff in interests two to three times the original price, if you just pay the minimum. So pay them down, as fast as you can, and don't buy things unless you can pay at the end of the month.

Will it put a crimp on your current lifestyle? Perhaps... but I sleep at night and we have savings in the bank.

Oh and once you get into these habits, then invest in spending tracking software if you think you need it.

What amazes me is that these habits are not taught in our consumer centered society, but in the coming economic crunch this might save your bacon.

[Mike03]

1. Excellent advice.

I hope people read your post and take it to heart.

K and R.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Well this was learned in the school of hard knocks

Hell, we save for many things, trips, computers, vehicles, and retirement.

[Mike03]

3. It's good to see you back!

I hadn't seen your posts in a while.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Dad fell down and broke his hip

been a tad busy with that.

Hell, it looks like I will have to go down to Mexico with them

No way my 78 year old mother can fully take care of my 81 year old dad

;-)

Good news, he is motivated so he will walk.

Just don't get me started on local EMS.

Suffice it to say I sent a letter to medical control.... and ignorance is bliss as far as my mom is concerned.

And I will have to go get a wireless so I can set a wireless network down there and use my mom's online access

[Mike03]

10. Aw, Nadin, I'm sorry about your situation

Wow, I have to tell you I am in a similar situation with my parents. I don't want to get OT on your thread, but just to say: It is really painful and life changing when your parents begin to get ill or require assistance. I totally understand.

Anyway, so happy to see you back. Actually, I have not been on DU for a few weeks myself, so who am I to comment? LOL.

Hugs to you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Back hugs

Hey life...

That's a fact

[pitohui]

5. um, wait i'm stuck on step one, wondering where you bought a cup of coffee for 50 cents

be honest, you couldn't have written this, it's cut and paste from some bullshit that worked back in 1972 correct? coffee today is, like, $6 not fifty cents!

go to the grocery store tomorrow and write down the prices on basic items like milk and butter, go to a starter home and get a quote on the cost of buying it PLUS insuring it, go to the gas station and check the price of gas

then check out the minimum wage in MOST areas, around $6!!! an hour unless it's some way radical area like i dunno seattle

these tips worked when we were kids, but they are almost an insult to young people starting out today

the bar has been raised to where you would have to be an olympic high jumper to make it on today's wages

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. 7-11

really cheap, really bad....

Granted... most go for a buck, but the point applies

Oh and I DID WRITE IT... from the school of hard knocks.

;-)

[pitohui]

14. this is why young people think we're ridiculous

we honestly don't understand that times have changed

when i started college it was $169 per semester and i could borrow all of my books from friends

today a semester at the same college is thousands, and textbooks are changed each year so that they can't be borrowed, friends have spent as much as $500 for REQUIRED texts in one year, more than i had to spend in my entire college education

and we talk about denying ourselves the pleasure of a cup of coffee like that's going to make a difference?

these narratives are about taking all the pleasure in life, every tiny bit of it, even something as small as a cup of coffee, such that we are allowed NOTHING, and if we manage to scrimp and save SOMETHING after all the ridiculous bills are paid then we are to hand it over to the financial industry

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. You know, I lived on a US Navy Salary for over six years

so this is not about kids going to school. I saw young navy wives do the same as college students do.

Run the credit card... and I concluded this is societal.

Sorry if this does not make any sense, but this is the kind of advise that allows people to live a better life.

And this is the kind of financial education that is NO LONGER taught.

Oh and scrimp and save... as I posted... both of our computers were paid in cash. We will take a trip this year, will be fully paid... and I still have money in the bank.

[pitohui]

23. i'm sorry, but this is not unique advice "that is no longer taught"

it is the same old cliches that everyone knows but simply isn't physically financially possible

everybody who can do it IS doing it and the people who can't do it don't need to be told, yet again, oh honey, it would be so easy if you just paid your bills

you really think this is news to ANYONE who has an IQ over about 50? seriously?

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. you are putting words into my mouth

if you think I am "blaming the victim" your opinion.

Now have a good day.

[sandnsea]

67. And eat lentils

never forget your lentils. ;)

I hear ya. I can't remember the last time I went to a movie and I rarely buy a cup of coffee. I quit buying on credit 20 years ago and have no debt, except medical bills. Working people have already cut every corner there is to cut. I get so tired of people being "helpful" when they really have no clue. People will do these things when they need to. It's common sense.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Key words you used, twenty years ago

problem is kids today are not taught these things


And many of them don't learn until they are in the street

:-)

[sandnsea]

71. It's common sense

And the vast majority do the best they can until an unexpected crisis hits. That's the truth of it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. I will ask the obvious question once again

what is the national savings rate?

What is the average debt for the average household?

Or as my hubby usually quips... common sense ain't as common as most people think

:-)

If it were, we would not be having this discussion, really, nor would the country have the lowest savings rate since oh... 1929 (in the negative numbers actually)

Is it more difficult to save today than it was twenty years ago? Yep...

Are kids taught how to do it today? Not that common

Can you get credit cards like candy when you are 18? Absolutely.

[sandnsea]

74. Net worth is rising due to investments

The people who used to have savings accounts now have money in investments. Debt is rising because people can't make ends meet, most of it is health care debt. The people who aren't saving now, weren't saving 20 or 30 or 40 years ago either.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Actually economists would have a problem with this

our saving rates have gone down with an increase in spending in frivolous items... and the roaring 20s have some similarities to the roaring 90s, and the tightening credit has parallels today as it did to 1929

I know that what I wrote in the OP should be common sense, but it is not.

I also know that from speaking to many a Navy Wife... some of whom were on food-stamps

I was always amazed at one in particular. They WERE on food stamps, and she still managed to put money away every month. When hubby left the service they had a cushion to start life with thanks to her frugality.

Hell, when mine retired we had a nice cushion too.

[sandnsea]

87. Bully for you

I don't know why you needed to boost your ego tonight, but hopefully you've got your back-patting out of your system.

Your theory completely falls apart when weighed against the economic reality that net worth is rising due to increased investment.

Working people never could save enough to give themselves anything more than a smidgen of emergency money, not a "cushion". But if it makes you feel better to believe its people's own fault their poor, well again, bully for you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. I NEVER SAID PEOPLE ARE POOR DUE TO THEIR OWN FAULT

you are putting words into my mouth

But reality is that people, rich, poor and in-between are not taught how to manage their money

That is a reality of our modern life

The rich, as in the very rich, don;t need to be taught since they live OUTSIDE the economy and usually have people managing their money... and they have OTHER ways to manage their money

But everybody else needs to learn how to become better with it

Once you start saving, you can start making your money work for you a tad harder by investing, but caveat emptor.

Why are you feeling bullied or threatened I have no idea... nor is this my problem.

It seems that some folks feel that what they think is common sense, and it is not, is to be a bully


:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[hippywife]

190. Actually

this does need to be taught. Each generation tries to give the next better than what they had in a material sense to the point that many young people don't have a sense of financial responsibility at all. Most of the young kids I see driving around in brand new SUV's don't really have a clue that credit can get you into deep shit. How many stories there are out there about college students being sucked in by the credit card companies and then, with no sense of any fiscal responsibility, run up thousands of dollars of debt before they know it and can't begin to pay it off. Many have no sense of what it takes to make ends meet and live within your means. We're at least a generation or so away from the time when that was the norm.

This was very good, sound advice. And as usual, you attack with your malicious attitude. What is up with that all the time? I have yet to see a post from you that isn't in this negative tone.

Thanx for taking the time to post this info, Nadin. The credit card companies want nothing more than folks that are less than responsible who they can make a slave to their interest rates and overcharges. More folks need to go tell them to take a hike. We learned this the same way you did and have definitely changed our ways and keep ourselves virtually debt free. It's a very nice feeling to be able to pay the bills necessary to live and not worry about a looming mountain of debt. It does help one sleep better at night. :hi:

[tblue37]

80. My son saved 50-70% per semester on his books by

purchasing them used on eBay and Amazon. He got burned once--he bought a textbook for a political science book that was so out of date it still had the Soviet Union as a viable state.

I arrange for my students in my poetry classes to buy their books used from students in my previous poetry classes, and I allow ANY edition of the books, so they can score very, very cheap ones on Amazon. They can get an out-of-date edition of a $70 book for under $10. There will be some discrepancies in the poems the book includes, and the page numbers for the poems that are in the book may be different. But they can use the index when the poems are on different pages, and I provide links to online versions of poems that can't be found in their books.

And since any student who wants to unload the poetry book can sell it the next semester to one of my new students, everyone gets out of the deal relatively unscathed.

I also encourage them to form book-buying co-ops in class--sharing a book rather than purchasing separate ones. If people live in the same dorm, especially on the same floor, they can buy a book together and share it. They end up doing this in other classes, too, after I show them how well it works.

When buying Starbucks coffee at $4 or $5 a cup adds up to $1000 or more a year, then, yes, brewing coffee at home and carrying it in a thermal mug is worthwhile. I honestly don't believe that people who buy Starbucks are getting $1000 worth of pleasure fromt heir habit--they just aren't realizing how they are nickel and diming themselves to death. Home-brewed coffee isn't so terrible that it's worth $1000 a year to go to Starbucks for it. It's a matter of priorities--and sometimes a matter of postponing gratification for a bit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. hell we used to buy used books twenty years ago

even the school bookstore got into it. I could buy my books for 70% off...

You just need to get creative... and with some... why not take them out of the library?

:-)

As you said, matter of priorities.

[DesertFlower]

9. i think it's nuts

to pay $6.00 for a cup of coffee. i brew my own at home.

[riverdeep]

128. I wouldn't use the minimum wage argument.

Not saying that it's not hard to make ends meet for people these days, just that that particular argument will be shot down quickly by an informed right-winger. Only about 3% of workers make the minimum and they don't stay at that wage for long. Much better to use the median income, which for the US overall, is about $26,000-$29,000/year, depending on your parameters.

[lumberjack_jeff]

164. Who buys coffee by the cup? n/t

[ithinkmyliverhurts]

6. Is there an economy in which this isn't sage advice? (nt)

[pitohui]

8. an economy in which prices far outpace wages

in which case it is not sage advice but smug and cruel

everybody already knows that credit cards charge interest, but wages have not kept up with prices, people have no choice

it's blame the victim

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. :scratches head: Where exactly have I blamed the victim?

Just wondering...

By the way.. paying down credit cards was the first thing my husband and I did after we married. We paid them all down wiht what we got from wedding gifts... have not allowed them to carry any balance since... been nine years.

Oh did I mention I did that on a NAVY salary?

[pitohui]

16. yeah a NAVY salary is a pretty good one compared to today's situation

minimum wage is what $5.30 an hour

you were making more than that in 1969 plus benefits

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. 69 wow, what about four years ago

sorry... won't get much... and tell me why PO4 are living on food stamps?

[pitohui]

20. you don't even know you're doing it, that's what is so sad

a NAVY salary w all its benefits is untold riches to people on min. wage with NO benefits and only given 34 hours a week of work to make sure they are never entitled to any benefits

you had vacation, PX, health care, GI bill, the list goes on

you just don't know what it's like out here, esp. now

easy to say "oh just pay off credit card" but many have no credit card, it's the payday loan or the place where you have to sign over the title to your junker

there is nothing new or original in your post, everyone knows this stuff, but it is not physically possible for everyone, it's like telling a paraplegic to just get out of his chair and run

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Then just simply ignore it

the advise is sage. You think otherwise, that is fine.

By the way , this advise is ANCIENT.

[pitohui]

26. i don't like to ignore insults to others

i know you are not intentionally insulting people by essentially saying, "i know better than you and YOU are so dumb you have NEVER heard this tired (i agree "ancient") advice" but trust me

it's highly insulting to assume only YOU know the secret of the ages and the rest of us poor benighted fools are a bunch of fuckwits

okay, i'm going now but seriously, sleep on it, read it tomorrow, and ask yourself honestly, is there ANYTHING in my OP that a person of good sense doesn't already know? in that case, aren't i calling DUers a bunch of morans? :-)

[Ratty]

32. Geez

I don't get all the negativity. Not everyone is out sleeping on the street. There are a lot of people that are simply having trouble making ends meet. They see their credit card debt and worry about paying it down. They have a job, eat and have roof over their heads but worry that they don't seem to be saving anything at the end of the month. Aren't we allowed to give them advice? Or should we just stand back, shake our heads and tell them what poor dears they are to live in Bush' economy then tell them to vote democratic. The OP isn't intentionally insulting people and isn't doing it unintentionally either. Nothing wrong with a little advice. We don't have to solve world hunger or end poverty in America with every word we breathe.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. There is more, when people get this way I just think back to the

Great Depression. People had trouble making ends meet back then. This is NOT new. But many of these spending habits were passed down to us by that generation. They learned it the hard way.

[tblue37]

98. But although many people really are in terrible straits

through no fault of their own, many others are just careless and thoughtless. Do I remember correctly that you were one of the victims of Katrina? If so, that is an entirely different situation. And when I was raising two young children on poverty wages, I had to go into debt because I couldn't make enough to make ends meet. But I see people all around me who throw away money they don't have on things that really are just frivolous. Many of those people are in their late twenties and early thirties, and often they have lived too comfortably because their parents paid for everything and didn't bother to teach them about what everything really cost or to delay gratification until they could afford something.

I have many young friends, and some of them are in just such a situation. They are in debt because they want what they want NOW, and they don't think about what it costs or how much extra their debt costs them in interest. Hell, some of them even used to lose money playing poker online, and then complain that they didn't have enough to pay their water bill! I finally got one of them to treat his online pokeer as an entertaiment expenditure and to figure out how much he honestly could afford to play each month. Once he did that, he was able to continue to play, knowing that when his losses reached a certain limit, he had to quit. If he won, and he sometimes did, then his winnings went into his "entertainment budget" so he could play more the next month.

[tblue37]

85. Sure, some people really are that desperate. But many are not--

they just live above their means. I see it all the time--in my students, my younger friends, and my own son. My son, who along with his fiancée makes more much more money than I do, sometimes needs me to send him money to help them out. But they get $60 haircuts and buy $100 jeans. Yes, I know that prices are high in the part of the country they live in, but hey also don't make much effort to find cheaper prices.

When he lived with me, he had to go for the cheaper things (like used books online), because at the time I was making $17,000 per year, and I could not pay full price. He also drinks his daily Starbucks. I don't. And that is one reason why although he makes more money than I do, I have money left to send him when he runs short. Right now he and his fiancée live in an efficiency apartment--but they are chafing to move into a 2-bedroom one, even though they have trouble making the rent on their efficiency. I think they should make do for a while at least.

I have friends in their late twenties and early thirties (my son's generation) who bitch about always being broke, but drop $30 or $50 for video games, without thinking twice about it. To me $30 or $50 seems like a lot of money to toss away so cavalierly. They spend money on ringtones and iTunes and all sorts of truly unnecessary electronic gadgets, and they also tend to run over their cell phone minutes and end up paying extra.

My students have often told me that our Starbucks exercise in class got them started in turning their financial lives around. Until doing that exercise, they had never even considered how much money they were throwing away.

Even the business above, where my daughter is going to pay off her $3000 credit card debt--she ran that up taking care of necessary things, not living extravagantly, because she is very careful with money. But since she is in her 4th year in med school, she can't have a paying job. She spends all day working her hospital and clinic shifts, and doesn't get paid for that. She will be a resident starting in June, at which point she will be making $40,000 per year. But she will get $11,000 in low-interest student loans in January to cover her last term in med school. She will use most of that for rent and bills, but she will have enough left over to pay down and possibly pay off that credit card, since they upped her interest on it just over the past two months, for no apparent reason.

Although I have been very, very poor, I recently started making a little more money (not a lot--but more than before). My first order of business was to pay down my debt that had accumulated because of my poverty. I am down to my last $800 in debt (from over $11,000), after two and a half years of scrimping.

If a catastrophe happens to me or to my daughter--a medical problem, and accident, etc., we won't be okay, and that is, of course, how many people get into financial trouble. What happened to me was that my husband dumped me for a younger woman when I had 2- and 3-year-old kids, and I wasn't willing to do a job that wouldn't let me stay home and raise them. I did home daycare for 18 years (no money in that, I assure you!), and was an adjunct college English instructor--very poorly paid work. I also tutored and hemmed and altered clothes in my spare time. I got little sleep, and I did not dress well, but I was the one raising my own kids, not some daycare provider, and I did end up in debt because of my low income. But since they have grown up and finished college, I have been able to gradually dig myself out of debt and make a little more money.

But I had to do without a lot of things during that time. Even now, my son gets upset that I live in a tiny little duplex apartment with no coat closet and hardly any room for anything. I have to use my shower rack to hang my shirts and blouses, since I have almost no closet space, and my slacks and knit tops are folded and piled on top of the one dresser I have room for. When he badgers me to move into a nicer apartment, I remind him that the reason I have money to send him when he needs help is that I don't spend more than I have to on such things. This is what I mean--sometimes you have to live frugally to stay within your means. But when people think it outrageous to do without their $1000/year Starbucks habit, there is no way they will give up their expensive electronic equipment, their videogames, their ringtones and iTunes, or any of the other expensive little luxuries they believe they can't live without.

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. Hubby is a gamer

but we BUDGET his games... it is part of the entertainment budget and his CIV III he enjoys it so much and plays it so many times that we have it in both the mac and the windows machine. Family came visiting, but he plays that game at least once a week... if not more.

Suggest that to your students, that they start budgeting things like movies, and games... and I-Tunes. Though my niece she has an I-POD, old, she didn't want to change play lists, so she just bought a new one. I bought mine when they took my Air America station away... and I use it... but if they had not taken the station I would still be listening on my trusty old radio

As to buying really expensive clothes... no, no way, no how.

[Selatius]

12. You can substitute hot cocoa in place of coffee, I guess.

But that depends on if you're addicted to caffeine. Some people are fine with decaf, and that would probably apply best to them.

The substitution effect is real. When steak meat got too expensive, they substituted hamburger meat. When that gets too expensive, I guess they can eat something else. I dunno, dog food.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. I know... that is part of the problem in this economy

perhaps having lived on a US Navy salary... helped me to become really good at managing money.

Mostly no choice...after all everybody knows that Petty Officers live the life, really :sarcasm:

[Mike03]

17. It's painful common sense, but not everyone has common sense.

I can't understand why anyone would be upset by the truth: Once we hit a certain again, we realize we can't buy things we can't afford. Is that Repuke or Dem? I think it's just the good old fashion brain.

Then, we need a net to help people who get into financial difficulties as a result of medical disasters or interpersonal troubles that are not capricious.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Speaking of medical emergencies

my parents lived and scrimped all their lives... thank goodness, or the accident would have put them in the street.

[Mike03]

25. Aw, Nadin(e), scrimping and saving may not help any of us in light

of current inflation rates or interest rates, but it is just a hope or strategy we can try.

It's like my spending and saving for some future disaster: It could be prophetic and wise, or it could be totally foolish and a waste. I just have no way of knowing.

But it's really nice or somehow comforting to see your posts. You know what this fear is about. Bless you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

42. True... look at Chile, readying

Klein's book does not give me a warm fuzzy... either.

But we all try

[kineneb]

30. unfortunately, savings didn't help us w/medical issue

we had to spend down all of our cash assets to get Hubby care. He was not yet "disabled" so did not qualify for Medicare or Medicaid. We had to rely on CMSP (CA:rural adult coverage), which, like Medicaid, does not allow any real assets. That, and the debts we ran up after Hubby got laid off from WorldCom pushed us into Ch. 7 bankruptcy. Renal failure and dialysis is expensive, one way or the other.

Now we have no savings or credit cards. Oh, well. Cash, both above and below the table is our friend.

Good luck with your folks. I know how tiring caregiving can be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. They were here visiting from Mexico

so they don't qualify for anything

Fortunately we know how non profits work so will talk to them and see about a discount

SHHH great secret, hospitals only get 33% from insurance companies from every dollar charged.

It goes from the National charts. They pay, for example, 100 dollars for a broken arm. Some patients run 90, others run 300...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

27. I think latte is a popular and huge expense nowadays....

An expense for those people who are doing well enough to have a credit card, have a roof over their heads, and not be living off Ramen noodles. There are some who are so bad off they can't even get a credit card and have no roof over their heads. Things are really bad. :(

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. I know they are bad

take away the credit card and the situation and advise is similar to that given by our forefathers during the great depression.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

112. I agree, but what I'm saying is that some people are homeless.....

.... or on the brink. For them, no advise is going to help. We need to change this country. A revolution is vital.

[nadinbrzezinski]

114. Ok, this will sound cruel, but we have had people on the brink or on the

streets since well before 1776.

You always have populations at risk. Right now our numbers are reaching in some areas depression era numbers.

That said, that is the result of Friedman style economics, a favorite of the Republicans.

But even populations at risk can find a way to save... many did in the depths of the great depression. One thing my mom does to this day is to save all them silly cheese packages and use them at home until they break down. Tell me, now much do you spend on plastic? How much could you save doing that? And today, when it falls apart, you can recycle.

Saving at times takes forgetting convenience and actually doing some things we little ones have not done in literally decades

Oh and the times that are coming will only INCREASE that population at risk. So it is time for you to start thinking, how did the people make it through the depression? And start using those techniques.

Hell, when I was a baby my mom could NOT afford disposable diapers... get the picture?

On a policy level we need a return to Keynseian economics... that will do it... but in the meantime... think on how YOU can make it through even if very poor.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

160. I agree. Friedman style economics is savage economics... the economics favoring the rich.

And yes, we all better tighten our belts. :(

[mopinko]

28. if you don't have the money, don't buy it. ok. let the dog die.

don't fix the car, loose the job. let the roof leak, fix the water damage next year. you get the idea. i hate these hoary old simpleton, 'if you are broke it is because you are stupid' economic advice posts. don't forget- don't eat out, home cooking is better for you. just because women have jobs now doesn't mean they shouldn't work 80 hours a week like grandma.

[starroute]

36. Why so much resentment?

Nobody said that your dog had to die or that you had to work 80 hours a week to cook your gruel from scratch or hand-knit your family warm woolen mufflers each winter.

The point in the OP is as simple as keeping track of what you spend and trying to eliminate unnecessary expenses and stay out of debt. If you should have to carry a credit card balance for a couple of months because of a sudden emergency, you should still feel free to do that -- but you also tighten your belt just a bit more until you've paid it down. You should never accept debt as an ordinary state of being.

When I was first married, I had no idea where the money went. So I kept track for a couple of months and found I could reduce my grocery bills by 1/3 just by cutting out impulse purchases and reining in luxury items.

The guidelines for managing to do that are as old and hoary as those in the OP -- don't shop on an empty stomach, make a list and stick to it, make one or two major shopping trips a week rather than constantly running into the store for milk (and getting five unnecessary things along the way.) They're pretty painless, don't take a lot of time, and really do work.

Beyond that -- yes, they are screwing us over, and no, watching the pennies won't fix what is wrong with our society. But it does help with getting through tough times -- and even in better times, it can mean being able to accumulate the cash for a few really special indulgences instead of frittering it away on trivia.

And meanwhile, using credit to pretend you can still live the way you did when times were easy, and especially doing it because you're too resentful to admit that things have changed, helps no one except the people who are already ripping us off. Giving up our imposed culture of consumerism may even be the one real hope we have of bringing the bastards to heel.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. And the advise I gave is the advise my mother gave me when I moved out

that was at the height of the Reagan years.

She is a child of the Depression, though not in the States.

She was told the same advise... sans credit cards, by her mother... when she married back in 1947

Of course why would mom know a thing?

I learned... and now I am not a tightwad, but we have our fund for emergencies, and it is growing.

And inflation has eaten quite a bit of our income, so I have had to look back at that advise and recalculate what we spend and how we spend it.

And yes, some of this is... but, but, why should I do any of this?

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Do you realize that a lot of this advise is the same your parent's generation

learned during the GREAT DEPRESSION?

Get it now?

[tblue37]

101. When I didn't have the money for the vet bills, my vet was kind enough

to let me run a tab, because I had gone there forever, and he knew I would pay it off, however long it took me. I have always had pets, and I have always gotten them medical care as they needed it--even if it took a while to pay of the bill. Some vets won't do that for you, but many will, especially if you have a history with them.

Also, I have had the expense of a car only for the last 17 months, but before that, since my 1983 divorce, I walked everywhere. (I am 57 years old.) Good thing I have a car now, since I have a ruptured disc and can't walk much. Until 17 months ago, I couldn't afford a car, and even the car I bought was for a great price since I bought it from my son's fiancee. They needed to unload their second car before moving to the Washington, D.C. area, where public transportation is good, but it costs a fortune to park an extra car. But not having to pay for gas and maintenance on a car all these years has been a blessing. I am glad to have one now, though!

But the OP wasn't talking about people who really have no choice. It was about people who get in over their heads because they don't really think about how they nickel and dime themselves into trouble.

[lumberjack_jeff]

165. There are two reasons to reject financial advice;

1) it's poor.
2) it crimps one's style.

If the advice is being rejected on basis #2 - what are you doing reading financial advice anyway? It's a waste both of your time and that of the writer. It's the reason I don't read fashion magazines.

I know a guy who makes six figures in an area where this amounts to more than three times the median income. I have never met a worse money manager. In every decision he makes, he always errs on the side of bad financial management. Yet, his money problems are always because he doesn't make enough to get by - and he always rejects financial advice using the same logic above. He spent $200 on fuel in one weekend driving around the area checking out storm damage. The upside was that his phones were out so creditors couldn't reach him.

The bottom line is that financial advice is intended for those who would take it. It isn't for everyone.

The flaw with Nadinbrezinski's advice wasn't that it was unsound, it's that too many people consider it quaint, yet cannot understand why they have money problems. Thrift should not have gone out of fashion.

[mzmolly]

29. Thanks, much needed advice!

:toast:

[Ratty]

31. Excellent advice

Don't rely on your fancy monthly bank statements that itemize expenses for you. They don't and can't itemize enough. They'll tell you you spent so much on groceries but won't tell you you're spending too much on potato chips or fancy yogurt or the evil money-sucking deli section or whatever your guilty weakness is. I also did the write everything down for two months routine and it was an eye opener. I kept a little key envelope with me and asked for receipts for most things and stuffed them in there. For things I didn't get a receipt for, I wrote it on the envelope in pencil. Then every week I itemized the receipts and what I had written down, erased and emptied the envelope for the next week. Anyone who complains about where all their money goes every month needs to try this. It isn't a mystery, it doesn't just disappear into another dimension. If you write it down then you'll know.

Secondly, credit cards are dangerous. Not because of their high interest rates if you don't pay them off, but because it's too easy to lose track of how much you spend when you're flashing a plastic card everywhere. I started carrying a lot of cash in my wallet and paying for everything that way. Without taking any particular care with how much I spent I found myself with hundreds of extra dollars each month for no particular reason. When you can see it actually disappear from your hand it's easier to exercise judgment and keep better track of it all.

[Hannah Bell]

37. you can...

make excellent spomges out of used pantyhose.

dust bunnies can be collected, spun, & turned into sweaters.

if the heat is turned off, your hibachi is a safe place for a small fire. use junk mail & dunning letters for fuel!

[Hannah Bell]

38. freeze your snot.

when you've collected a sufficient amount, it can be combined with flour & spices & baked, creating a tasty high-protein snack.

this works, i'm a dietitian.

[Hannah Bell]

40. once your power is turned off...

you can sell the copper wiring for scrap.

copper's booming these days!

there's copper in your plumbing, too.

[troubleinwinter]

45. I know your hibachi comment was a joke, but

my cousin went hunting with three pals when they were young men and went to sleep with a bar-b-que in the cabin. Three of the four men died of carbon monoxide.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. As a medic I dealt with those emergencies at least five times

every winter. One time we dealt with a very large family... mom, dad and five kids were dead

So for me that ain't a joke either

[Hannah Bell]

50. No,

it's reality. When you have no heat, that's what you do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Yes, and people die

I know the reality. Trust me... I know that reality far better than many folks here.

[troubleinwinter]

58. Three people died. It was cold. They used a bar-b-que. They died.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. I use my bank card... tied to the checking account

but that one, I have to have discipline about it. No choice...

And I would NOT advise this to anybody who does not have any clue how much they spend a week on groceries.

(And I have also been able to track how much we spend a week in Milk and how much it has gone up in the last oh year or so)

[Lars39]

33. Save money, even if you are paying off massive debt.

You can't stop the debt cycle if you are putting *every* spare penny towards debt.

[prolesunited]

35. No financial planners will give you that advice.

You put *every* spare penny toward paying down debt as it's usually above 10 to 15 percent interest and then take that same money toward building an emergency fund, and then long-term savings. The most you can get off savings is about 5 percent, so you're losing money by not retiring the debt faster.

[Lars39]

111. If you don't build an emergency fund *while* you are paying down debt,

emergencies put on credit will keep digging the debt hole deeper.

[Katherine Brengle]

110. Pay yourself first.

Always.

[Digit]

34. Brown bag your lunch

I worked with a bunch of younger adults who always complained about not having any money.
Well, they went out for lunch everyday at work, so you can guess where all their income went.

Another one...stop smoking...you spend a small fortune on lung darts. (I am guilty of this one)

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. Ah yes, lunch

That is a biggie. My hubby brownbags every day.

When I was in college, I worked in food service, One of my beanies was I think $3.20... it never went far, not at cafeteria prices. These days I shudder to think how much not brown bagging would run

[tblue37]

102. My parents used to spend $3 for a carton of cigs. Now it

costs my smoking friend over $4 for a pack of them!

[tblue37]

103. Also, my young adult friends spend an awful lot of money on

alcohol. And it isnt just the beer and stuff they bring home to drink. It's the beer and mixed drinks they buy in bars!

[sendero]

39. I find the negative reactions..

... here puzzling. Is this advice particularly novel? No. But it's really clear that a lot of people really need to heed it.

The world has changed. The things that most Americans see as necessities now will be seen as luxuries in the not too distant future.

Adapting to what's is coming is good, not bad. WHY is it coming is pretty much irrelevant if you can't do anything about it, and the fact is we cannot. We (the middle class, the lower classes) have been abandoned by the Democratic party, you're on your own bucko.

However, I can distill the advice down to a few simple statements:

1) become miserly in your spending. figure out what you can do without and do without it. bank the savings. or pay down debt.

2) debt is nothing less than servitude to the rich. avoid it at all costs.

3) remember, you don't own anything that you are making a payment on.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Ah yes number three, you just sounded like my dad

:-)

that was his adage for DECADES

[sendero]

108. I know that my way...

.. is considered downright dinosauric by many. But it has served me very very well. :) And in the coming environment, it will serve me even better!

[lumberjack_jeff]

167. I don't know if "miserly" is the word I'd use.

In the book "your money or your life" the authors made an excellent point.

1) how much do you make each hour? Let's say $20.
2) how much of that goes to taxes, commuting, work expenses, costuming and de-stressing costs (alcohol, etc). Let's say those work-related costs come to $11.
3) your true hourly wage is thus $9. You sell each of the finite hours of your life to someone in exchange for $9.
4) A cup of coffee at starbucks is $5.00. A cup of coffee made at home costs $0.50. Does the green paper cup bring you enough joy that trading a half-hour of your life is a fair trade? Can you do it without precluding a potential expenditure which might bring you greater satisfaction, e.g. a roof over your head?

If the answer is yes, by all means buy it. If the answer is no, then don't.

The point is to be awake, conscious and aware of your spending and to keep it aligned with your values.

[DaveJ]

52. Totally agree -- And here's what's wrong with that...

Again, let me reiterate I totally agree that saving 10+ percent is the way to go. But just for academic purposes I'd like to raise some problems with this simplistic advice.

Problem is that less consumerism would slow down the economy to the point that savings would not do much good if there is less to enjoy. Granted, if you want a home, you need to save for one, but otherwise, a lot of youths just want to live for the moment. And as long as they have a productive job that's fine. Maybe they were already handed a home by relatives, or had some other way of obtaining a home and a secure retirement.

Second problem is that this way of living does not exactly defeat the two tier economy that has become increasing prevalent since the 50's. While the poor and middle class try to save, they make little headway, while the rich keep getting richer because they know how to make their money work for them. In summary I think the smartest thing for people to do is invest their time in generating wealth.

Obviously savings is important, but is is a lot more practical to do so when income is high. In this economy people really need to make 100k per year to be comfortable. If they can't find an employer to provide it they should find a way on their own. With average jobs, savings alone won't give people the 2+ million dollars they need to retire.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. First things first, you need some savings before you can invest

what is the saving rate in the US right now?

You know the answer.

So the first thing to do is to get people to save. Once they have some savings they can INVEST.

But you are right, as the saving interest rates are lousy. But again, first things first, get them to save... and then we can jump the next hurdle which is to go see a financial adviser and get their money to work harder than it will do in ANY savings account

Ideally the first thing is an emergency fund... once that is established, you get to the actual savings\ investment funds

[DaveJ]

57. Credit cards should be illegal

I think that's the main thing that people need to realize. Once they get past that hurdle, it should be easier for them to save.

But my point is that people need to make a lot more money.

For instance, my parents constantly brag about how much they saved and attribute it to how much they have now. But they never talk about the fact that they were paid a lot of money too. I am making well above average, but still, my dad made 2 or 3 time what I am, 20 years ago! So no wonder he was able to save!! What $50K was in 1999, you'd need to make $100K now.

It's simply not as easy to save as it used to be. One can't blame things like coffee and video games. People need to live. People have always spent a little money here and there. People can't be expected to halt all spending and only focus on survival. Actually, to me, it's the spartan survival mentality that has been bothersome since 2000.

But I do not want anyone to take my ideas too far. People should definitely be responsible. NEVER use a credit card unless your life depends on it, and even then, think twice about it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. Look at the Great Depression. That is a far more adequate

parallel to what we are seeing today, and what we will see in the near future. You know and I know saving rates are equivalent to 1929, which for the record were the lowest in US History.

Now I agree, it was easier for our parents generation to save. That does not mean we can't do it.

But part of the problem is that since the 1980s we have developed a culture of wanton consumption and national GNP DEPENDS on that consumption. Never mind the jobs and salaries are no longer here to maintain those lifestyles

Now what I advised above is exactly what my mother remembers her mother telling her... after the Great Depression. This is one way they made it through it. Granted, it was in Mexico... and Mexico City to be exact. In some ways Mexico City had some other problems during those years of a contracting economy than the dust-bowl.

Now today we are facing something similar to that time. Our economy is entering the great Recession... and it might get as bad as a depression. Survival in times like this usually mean being thrifty.

As to credit cards, realize one of the triggers for the Great Depression were not credit cards perse, but easily obtainable credit and somewhat cheap credit. Our credit is not that cheap, but the parallels are there.

Now if people, all of a sudden, en-masse decide NOT to spend as much in discretionary things such as coffee, will that slow down the economy? Absolutely. Is it already happening? Yes... for the same reasons I had to look at my spending on coffee... and other discretionary matters. It is called inflation and the cost of things such as gas. And we are already moving towards a recession.

[Hannah Bell]

82. There was another little similarity...

record wealth & income concentration at the top.

think there's any connection?


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/01/business/main2422489.shtml

"The savings rate has been negative for an entire year only four times in history — in 2005 and 2006 and in 1933 and 1932. However, the reasons for the decline in the savings rate were vastly different during the two periods.

During the Great Depression when one-fourth of the labor force was without a job, people dipped into savings in an effort to meet the basic necessities of shelter and clothing."



There are plenty of savings: at the top.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. For that you need to thank freidman and the chicago boys

all of this counter revolution to Keynes, is by design....

And the often used saying comes to mind

The best laid plans of mice and men...

[Hannah Bell]

56. 1/3 of people retire totally dependent on social secuity.

2/3 depend on it for 50% or more of their retirement support.

Median household income in the US is a little under 50K.

Certainly, if we all live like Scrooge McDuck, some of those folks might do better.

Nevertheless, more than 50% of jobs pay rather less than even 50K/year.

Which is why it's trying, sometimes, to hear bright savings tips.

[DaveJ]

59. I've met lots of people in their 50s and 60s

Who've worked for corporations for 20-30 years at the same jobs that paid very little. Even if they had saved and lived frugal all their lives they would have little to show for it in the end. And one slip-up (and who doesn't make mistakes?) they can forget about a comfortable retirement. That's why I say people need to focus on making more. The dollar is not what it used to be.

[Hannah Bell]

60. yes,

and how would you suggest going about that?

[DaveJ]

64. personally...

Personally, I'm trying to develop my own product to sell, and generate additional income.

I think they key to to have multiple streams of income: job, interest, dividends, one's own business, etc. Maybe others can think of other streams of income. But whatever the case, just one source is not enough.

I'm not saying everyone MUST do this. Everyone should live a respectable life in their working years and retirement, even if government needs to intervene to make it happen.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. First get people to save

after that you can get them to invest.

Tell me oh bright one, what is the current savings rate in the US?

Oh and what is the average household debt in the US?

You think this cannot be corrected?

[lumberjack_jeff]

168. You're neglecting an important point.

A person who saves 10% of their income has enough cash at age 50 to retire with the same income they've been living on all along.

If people only work 60% as long, the resulting labor shortage forces wages to increase.

No income level is comfortable for those who can't manage money.

BTW - saving money is generating wealth. On the other hand, generating income isn't necessarily generating wealth.

If one agrees with something they ordinarily don't immediately point out what was wrong with the statment they just agreed with. Just sayin.

[JanMichael]

63. Buy bulk beer at Costco!

And don't spend money on stupid pop culture shit at any time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

65. I don't drink

that helps....

We don't smoke either....

Then again... the meds take it

;-)

[DaveJ]

68. I freely admit we spend way too much on booze...

In fact, if it weren't for alcohol my wife and I probably would need medication.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. I smell it and I fall asleep

NO TOLERANCE for the stuff!!!!!!!!

:-)

[CrispyQ]

133. I only started drinking when my reef connection moved.

Holy shit I miss her!! :cry:

[tblue37]

104. Yeah--I also have to spend more than I like on meds

each month.

[cutlassmama]

176. same here.

[Ilsa]

66. Even wine doesn't have to be expensive to be decent enough for

enjoyment. On Fine Living network the other night, they said that most people probably can't discriminate between a $7 bottle and a $20 bottle, if it is the same grape varietal.

[tblue37]

73. One exercise I sometimes ask my English 101 students to do is to

figure out how much they spend on Starbucks coffee. Most of them who drink Starbucks at all spend from $800 to $1200 per year! One girl figured out that together, she and her family (Mom, Dad, teenaged sister) spent over $4500 per year--and they were not rich. I ask my students then to think of what they could do if they had that money back to use on books or tuition--or if they had saved it.

Figure 1 cup is about $4.00 (or is it $5 now?)

Some of these kids buy a cup every day for 5 or even 7 days a week in a given year. Let's say just five days a week. That is $20 per week. At 52 weeks per year, that adds up to over $1000. Some buy it more often than once a day. And if other family members are doing the same thing, it isn't hard to waste several thousand dollars per year.

And then I ask them to add up other things--like eating at drive-through restaurants, buying junk food and sodas at the grocery store, etc.

I have seen several students give up Starbucks (or its equivalent in other "premium" coffee shops) altogether after this little exercise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. Bravo to you... for teaching them a little about budgeting

and luxury spending.

I did the exercise with my coffee since I like the Seattle's best... at the supermarket... but... with inflation I needed to stretch my money

By the way, the cup went overnight from 3.50 to over four bucks... and that is when it became a real luxury.

And one I rarely indulge in these days.

[DaveJ]

83. Sorry for beating a dead horse...

Ultimately (or I guess not untimately) but in 5-10 years, which of your students will really be regarded as successful, those who were thrifty, or those who landed a job paying big bucks?? We are in a two tier society where most students go on to make $10/hr while others go on to make big time salaries. For example, I may be frugal, yet my bosses have always gone out to $15 lunches every day without thinking about it. And in the process they stay in the loop and "connected" enabling them to make even more money. They are doing fine despite their spending habits. That's why I think it's all about what you make these days. Not being stupid with money is also important but not nearly as important as being financially successful overall.

[tblue37]

94. But most people are not going to be making those

big bucks, and it is insane for them to spend money like the ones who are. And unless you are in the loop where such networking pays off, going to expensive lunches is just burning money that could be saved.

A few years ago a book came out called The Millionaire Next Door. It detailed the stories of many millionaires and multimillionaires who got that way without ever having earned all that much money. They lived frugally, didn't waste money, and saved enough to invest wisely.

I think also of the cleaning ladies and janitors we read about who die and leave hundreds of thousands of dollars to their favorite charity or cause. They were able to save all that money by living frugally. I don't want to lie so frugally that I don't have fun. I get basic cable and HBO, but I don't go out to movies. I rent DVDs or watch on TV, because I have to have closed captioning (I am severely hearing impaired). But I love movies, and if we didn't have a way to watch them at home, I would figure a way to include theater movies in my budget (if, of course, I could hear them--which I can't).

I used to spend too much money on books, but now I buy most of my books used online. I get some that look new, but some look pretty well worn. I don't really care, though. I want to read them, not date them.

I have a neighbor who used to be a beautician. She cuts my hair for slightly less than half of what I would pay at a salon, but since the salon she worked at took a 50% cut of her earnings, we both come out ahead.

When I was married (to a college professor--we were divorced in 1983), he blew through our money at a sickening rate. He kept complaining that I needed to earn more (I was an undergrad at the time, and then a grad student) to keep up with our expenditures. Even while teaching classes as a grad student, I ended up waiting tables 30 hours a week to raise our income. Still things were tight. Finally, around 1978 I pointed out ways that we could easily save about $100-$150/month. In 1978 that was more money than it looks like now. He scoffed at the notion, saying, "$100 is nothing. It isn't even worth the effort!" But $100/month is $1200/ year! That could be invested, and over time. . . . well, I don't need to tell you.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

126. Very good point. Being frugal can mean missing out on important connections and social capital

In my business, I'd lose money if I brownbagged it at my desk. I need to be taking a potential client to lunch or attending a networking luncheon. Sure, it's 40 bucks but it could lead to a lucrative account later.

[CrispyQ]

137. You hit the nail on the head with this comment:

"And in the process they stay in the loop and "connected" enabling them to make even more money."

It's the old "who you know vs what you know."

Being networked pays off. Execs who make ultra bucks always have an easier time finding another big paying job than those of us at the bottom trying to find low paying work. Look at the assholes who drive the company into the ground. They leave with bonuses that were negotiated when they came into the company & have nothing to do with performance & in a matter of weeks or months they land another cush job, in spite of the fact that everyone knows they are fuckups.

Arghh!!! :banghead:

[lumberjack_jeff]

170. Were regarded as successful or *were* successful?

You've touched on a very important point. People in the consumer culture aren't successful unless they look successful.

A person can be successful on even a modest income. If they instead aim for "being regarded as successful" they will fail.

It's not what you make, it's what you keep. It's a truism, but it's one that people won't accept without hindsight. Sadly, you don't get to make the trip the second time to benefit from that hindsight.

[Swamp Rat]

75. Send all College Republicans to Iraq to cut down on future CEO salaries.

When they come home, after 30 years of service, they can pick strawberries and pluck chicken feathers for minimum wage in order to compensate for crappy VA 'benefits'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. I am personally for a national draft

it is not just republicans who don't realize we are at war...

That said, Young Republicans usually are the first ones to back away when you suggest service in the armed forces, in the front lines preferably

That said, a national draft would improve the VA, especially if it was a WW II one...

Hell we may even see a descent GI bill

[CountAllVotes]

122. kick!!

:kick:

[tblue37]

76. I just told my daughter to pay off her $3000 credit bill. She is now paying ~18%

interest. I told her that there are few places right now where you can get an 18% return on an investment--and paying off a credit card bill, if you are in a position to do so, is one of them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Good for you

some folks get down right defensive... but in this economy one of your first steps is to cut down on debt

[DaveJ]

89. About paying off debt...

Are you basing this assertion an any particular economic trend?

Depending on inflationary trends, interest rates, and one's age, it may be sufficient to pay only the interest on debt. For instance a $50K student loan may be the same as $3k in about 20 years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. Most financial advisers tell you to pay down your debt ASAP and then save

after you save, invest.

You will really not get good payments, aka interests until you start investing

Also most advisers I know off tell you to get out of it ASAP.

[DaveJ]

92. True... But I'm sure that depends on your goals.

If you need cash flow to make your mortgage payment you can pay less on a loan and more on your mortgage. Ideally, it would best if debt never occurred, but if it exists, and someone wants a home to raise their kids in, families do what they need to do.

If you are talking credit cards, obviously they need to go asap, but I think other loans with more reasonable interest rates can be less dangerous to work with....

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Her example was an 18% APR credit card

other loans can be worked better, and also you need to read the fine print

Some of our fine lenders will penalize you if you try to pay ahead....

:-)

Ah the sub-prime mess

But as a matter of principle the general advise, not looking at details, is to pay down your debt as fast as possible, and IDEALLY use those payments you were formerly making to save and invest... that way you have the same money each month, but are increasing your net worth.

[tblue37]

95. She is a med student. She had to use the card to

cover certain necessities for a while. But she will get a low-interest student loan in January. It will be enough to cover her living expenses for her last semester in med school, and she starts with a resident's salary at $40,000/year in June. She lives frugally enough that she will be able to use some of that loan to pay off that $3000 at 18% mastercard bill, which is a better deal. She had had a much better interest rate on that card before and had never had a late payment, but they upped her interest rate all of a sudden. (Bank of America--you know how usurious they can be.)

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. I know how they can be, why I cut my BOA card years ago

and she sounds like a good and intelligent kid... she';ll be fine when all is said and done

And a resident... she won't have time to spend much

:-)

Brother is a doctor... those years were hell

[tblue37]

99. Third year is worst. She took third year off when she won a

Fulbright Fellowhsip to take a higher degree in social policy at University College in Dublin. Otherwise she would have graduated last year. But that year off saved her sanity--and that Fulbright looks very nice on her resume!

She is very bright, and since she didn't have to study much, she worked about 50 hours a week waiting tables in a nice restaurant in Dublin. She used the money she made that way to travel after she completed her degree. She had traveled through western Europe when she did her study abroad semester in London as a junior in college. As a senior she had also done a 2-month field research program in Costa Rica, where she studied primate ecology in the rain forest. So after completing her degree in Dublin, she used her waitressing money to travel around eastern Europe as well as Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore. She also spent the summer after first year of med school working as a waitress in Dublin. She really loves to travel. She has arranged with a hospital in Dublin to do an "away rotation" there in February, because she figures it will be her last chance to really travel until after she finishes her residency, and ehr work in the hospital there will count as part of her medical training.

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. Good for her

and she is right... for my brother travel did not become a reality again until well after he established his practice
at the Clinic he works as a researcher...

[MilesColtrane]

97. Reminds me of the Steve Martin routine "You can be a millionaire and never pay taxes!"

"Steve.. how can I be a millionaire.. and never pay taxes?" First.. get a million dollars. Now.. you say, "Steve.. what do I say to the tax man when he comes to my door and says, 'You.. have never paid taxes'?" Two simple words. Two simple words in the English language: "I forgot!"

[tblue37]

105. What's funny is that Richard Hatch, who won a million dollars on the

first season of survivor, used almost exactly that excuse when he was charged with not paying taxes on his winnings. He served time for it.

(His actual excuse was that he believed the production company deducted the necessary taxes before paying out the winnings.)

[flashl]

106. Life at Minimum Wage

The lives of 13 million people are going to get a little easier today. They're the American workers whose earnings will get a boost as the federal minimum wage increases 70 cents today, from $5.15 per hour to $5.85 per hour. The wage will increase an additional 70 cents over the next two years, reaching $7.25 in 2009.

As the chart below shows, today's minimum wage increase will offer a bit of welcome relief to working families who depend on earnings from minimum-wage jobs. Costs of basic necessities such as food, electricity, and gasoline have increased markedly between 1997—the last time the federal minimum wage went up—and today.

A week of hamburger dinners for a family of four, for example, is roughly $20 more expensive today than it was in 1997—an increase of nearly 40 percent. Before today, minimum-wage earners working to buy hamburger dinners their families would've had to work nearly four more hours per week today than they did in 1997 to buy the same meal. After the increase, they'll be able to work an hour and a half less to feed their families. Take a look at the chart for examples of how the rising wage will make it easier for families to provide for other basic necessities such as electricity and gasoline.

Today's wage increase is long-overdue progress: before today, the minimum wage was at its lowest level in 50 years. A family of three supported by one minimum-wage earner lived roughly $5,400 below the federal poverty line—earning just $10,700 every year. Now that family will bring in $12,168 before taxes, and when the wage reaches $7.25 in 2009, they'll earn a little over $15,000. It's a start, but it's not enough: the federal poverty level for a family of three is $17,170. More and more generous increases are required to ensure that every American worker earns enough to support his or her family. The United States is the wealthiest country in the world—one in which the phrase "working poor" should not apply to anyone.

Source: U.S. Department of Labor - Bureau of Labor Statistics
Read Full Text

[CrispyQ]

139. In Senator Dorgans book,

"Take This Job and Ship It: How Corporate Greed and Brain-Dead Politics Are Selling Out America" he states that if minimum wage had kept up with CEO pay increases since the early 1990s it would now be $23.08 per hour.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. And after doing much thinking a LIVING wage in some areas should be

close to thirty

[dailykoff]

107. thanks but why didn't you post this two weeks ago

:) :thumbsup:

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. My dad fell down and broke his hip and have been

going in and out of hospital... oh and don't get me started on the medics

;-)

Oh he is in rehab right now and should be home in about two weeks max

[Katherine Brengle]

109. In addition to cutting spending and focusing on saving, I also think we should all take

steps to better educate ourselves about financial matters so we can make what money we do have become more money. Simply saving is a Band Aid solution, it's important that our saved money grow.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. The way I see it is this way

first get people to save. Then, once you have a nice amount, go down to the financial advisor and INVEST. I intend to do this SOON... now that we have some money in the bank.

But the first step is to get people to save... after that everybody needs to make sure that money works harder than just your local bank.

[Katherine Brengle]

169. I think it's important

to pay yourself first however, rather than to save what you can after paying the bills etc. You can build up assets more quickly this way and the cash flow from those assets helps to pay the bills as well as build up more assets.

[nadinbrzezinski]

175. You need to have the assets to be able to build them

:-)

Just saying

[Sir Jeffrey]

113. Care if I add a few things?

1. Do not get sick. If you do not have health insurance, you will run through your saved/discretionary income very quickly. However, even if you have health insurance, you will end up using your accumulated wealth quickly, albeit at a slower pace than if you have health insurance. Especially try to avoid the big sicknesses like cancer. Three months in the hospital getting treatment for your illness will exhaust most people's wealth. So my advice would be to avoid getting sick altogether.

2. Do not get into car accidents. Your car insurance will go up.

3. Do not use your credit card to pay for emergency expenses that must be fixed for you to go to work and earn income. If your car breaks down and you live paycheck to paycheck with no savings, walk. Remember, it is your fault for not having a job that pays more.

4. For all the young adults out there: If your parents cut you off while you are in college and you have to pay for books and tuition, instead of using your credit card to cover those expenses, just drop out and work full time. Understand that all of that time you are wasting in college could be spent making some fat white businessman wealthier.

5. Don't get divorced. If you do, the other spouse typically gets half.

6. Don't have children. Children cost money.

7. Do not go to college if you have to take out student loans. Poor people like you should not be entitled to a quality higher education. You are not entitled to learn at a reasonable cost beyond high school. Go find two or three jobs in this fabulous service economy. With 3 jobs paying $6 an hour, you can work 14 hour days and make nearly enough to pay for rent AND food.

8. Probably the most important advice I can add: if you have a decent job, do ANYTHING to keep it. Always try to kiss as much ass as possible and work off the clock if you can. Your employer will appreciate your hard work and not fire you until he is told to do so by his superiors.

Sarcasm smiley unnecessary I hope. Your advice is fine, but most people experience problems not due to reckless consumerism. They experience problems related to unexpected events/disasters. The reckless consumerism myth is propagated by the media to divide and play to our puritanism inclinations that wealth = earned wealth. Very powerful people want you to believe that.

If you live paycheck to paycheck and have no reasonable means of increasing your income, your advice is frankly worthless. I am not saying you do not mean well. I am saying your advice is outdated. This might have worked in the depression era when people knew how to farm and did not have to commute 30 miles to work everyday. Today's problems are weird. We live in the most affluent society in world history, yet the system is rigged to protect the ridiculously wealthy at everyone else's expense. It is also set up these days where literally anyone not worth seven figures is one catastrophe away from bankruptcy. No amount of budgeting will fix a legitimate inability to meet your living expenses or unexpected catastrophes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. Is it? Why is it that the folks at the depths of the Great Depression

were able to do that... some better than others?

Oh and let address some of this.

Medical care, the US NEEDS a policy shift from health care for profit to not for profit healthcare. We need National single payer health insurance. That will solve most of the problems in the national health care system and allow people the freedom of not having to worry about a doctor. As an individual I cannot do much except vote for politicos that will push for that, and put pressure on the politicos already in-office.

As to car accidents, yes, it will go up... if you are at fault. I may add, it will take your wheels away.

Now if you want to be facetious and think that our collective lifestyles don't have to change... well why are you being defensive?

By the way I gave a very specific example of an expense I could cut without too much pain... you think we don't live paycheck to paycheck by the way?

[RadiationTherapy]

118. the point I glean from Sir Jeff's post is

that much of your advice in your OP is as impractical or as obvious as his. You say 'pay your credit card every month; don't spend what you don't have'(not a real quote) he says 'don't get in a car accident.' No one wants the alternatives to these pieces of advice, so why tell people to avoid the obvious?

Another way to phrase it may be:

'be careful of how and what you spend' (advice you did give later on, I believe)

'be careful when you drive'

Just as obvious, of course, but more specific.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. I will point this again

this is as timeless as personal money management advise as given since oh... ben franklin, if not earlier. Some things change, aka credit cards, but others don't

I will also point something else, common sense ain't as common as people think.

[Sir Jeffrey]

119. I am not being defensive...

I am pointing out a serious error in your "advice" i.e. that it does not work when (not if) people face unexpected catastrophe/emergency.

I will explain to you that the people I know that are around my age (29 and around that) consider budgeting to be a luxury. Open your mind up a little bit. The people going on spending orgies are not the ones living paycheck to paycheck. If my friends and I went on spending binges, we'd be homeless in about a week or two. We've been making a de facto budget ever since Bush decided to wreck the economy. We just usually do not get to handle any real discretionary income, so the "get out a pen and paper" method is literally depressing and unnecessary. I do not need to hand write that I have more expenses than income, or that I have more expenses than student loan funds available. The last budget I hand wrote was in 2004 when I was literally one week away from homelessness with my wife and small child. If my landlady had not allowed me to pay her rent for the summer months when i got my loan check in the fall, we would have been living in the Jeep. I might as well have handwrote "I'm fucked" on a piece of paper and adhered to that for two and half months.

And although i do not want to turn this into a generational rant, the reason many people were able to survive the Great Depression was because the extended families would stay near each other and help each other out. Entire communities were geared toward one or two major employers, and the population was not nearly as mobile as it is today. People stayed close to home and assisted each other in home repairs, growing and preparing food, etc. Moms and grandmothers, dads and grandfathers, aunts and uncles, and if necessary, the children would all stick together and contribute to the overall well-being of the entire family.

These days the moms and dads of people my age and younger have different attitudes about how much assistance to give to children just starting out. They often do not see how much debt is required just to roll the dice on a better future for yourself and your family. More often than not these days, people have been taking a risk by getting that BA or BS that backfires... and they end up fighting for entry level positions that literally pay just as much as an asst. mgr. at McDonald's earns....but the McDonald's guy did not have the $600 a month in student loan debt of course...he just accepted his place outright and did not risk anything. And then someone comes along and says "Well you don't need a degree to be successful"...well okay, but how about that massive student loan debt we all have now?

This is the kind of society we have today. No amount of budgeting will help you increase your income if you start out with no real discretionary income. And although your advice is practical (if not blatantly obvious), it is outdated and incapable of handling many of the things we all face in this time under these rules.

[nadinbrzezinski]

125. Look back at the Great Depression

Look back at the age of Jackson and Jacksonian Democracy and the ECONOMY back then... that Depression was the worst in US History until 1929

Look back at the Robber Baron Era.

It is your mistake to think that today is that different. Yes, there are things that are different, like a slightly better safety net, yes.. IT IS BETTER.. But if you think this generation has it tougher than depression era kids, or kids coming off the boat in the 1890s I do have a bridge to sell you...

read Ben Franklin and his advise on how to save for a rainy day. Gee... his advise is similar to this. What you think our tough times are unique to our era? You think two working parent families are unique? (In spite of 1950s glorification and myth making?)

And if you think our present condition is unique to these days... then you didn't pay attention in history class.

Now can the country as a whole do better? Absolutely... and there are POLICY, as in very wonky POLICY planks that will extend that safety net and make life a little easier, see national single payer health insurance, for example. Or a rebirth of the WPA...or transit systems that work, but this is NOT what this post is about.

[Sir Jeffrey]

138. Are you pretending to read my posts?

Because you cannot seem to grasp what i am saying. Go back and read them a bit closer.

I fail to see how you can say this:

"But if you think this generation has it tougher than depression era kids, or kids coming off the boat in the 1890s I do have a bridge to sell you... "

When I did not write anywhere in either posts (or anywhere else for that matter) that today's youth have it tougher than Depression-era kids, nor is it even implicit in anything i wrote. I have a lot of personal stories from relatives that lived through the depression. I would never say anything like that because I know it is not true. I had relatives come over in the 1880's and get placed into indentured servitude. My great grandfather walked out on his wife and four young children during the Depression.

You should apologize for making this statement. Either you did not read my post or you are blatantly trying to create a strawman argument. Or perhaps English is not your first language.

I said today's problems are "weird" and I stand by that. We have devolved into a quasi-feudalistic society where the major banks own a huge percentage of the youth and everything they possess. Many in the older generations cannot see this because, by and large, they do what you just did i.e. don't listen to the way things actually are these days for the youth. Or they don't care because they got theirs.

As far as history goes, can you point to any time in US History where the younger generations were saddled with crippling debt prior to entering the workforce? Isn't that "unique" to our times?

Or how about any time in US history where a trip to the doctor = bankruptcy (or if you're insured, trip to the doctor = mortgage on your house)? Was this a common occurrence in the 1950's? 1850's? 1790's?

What about all the outsourcing of US jobs? When did Andrew Jackson have to deal with outsourcing again?

And do you honestly believe that saving money on shit like a cup of coffee is going to help someone if they get cancer?

Ugh. Your "arguments" are making my brain hurt.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. I have and I am telling you.. when you look at HISTORY

we are not doing worst or better than other generations

There are things that are PARTICULAR to our period... such as outsourcing... but kids today are not having it any worst or harder than kids during the Great Depression or the Robber Baron Era.

I know this is not popular, but perhaps a good read of a People's History of the US may be enlightening to you.

[Sir Jeffrey]

142. I noticed there was no apology in your post...

for lying/mischaracterizing/embellishing what i wrote. Until you point specifically to the part of my postings that SAY or IMPLY anything about how people my age and younger have it worse than depression era children, you owe me an apology for saying that.

And BTW I OWN A People's History of the United States and have read it several times I cited sections of it in one of my major papers in college (comparing 21st Century sweatshops ran by Nike et al to late 19th/early 20th Century domestic sweatshops) ...and i got an A on the paper.

You seem to have a basic inability to comprehend other people's arguments. Perhaps you should go get someone you trust to read my posts and explain what I am saying to you. I am willing to explain it to you slowly and in short sentences, but only after you apologize for lying/mischaracterizing/embellishing what I wrote about depression era children.

[nadinbrzezinski]

143. What apology do you want for what?

you HONESTLY feel that the job market today is WORST than during the Great Depression?

If you do, you really need to read some history.

[Sir Jeffrey]

147. What the hell man...

You said that i said that the youth of today have it harder than the depression era children. I said absolutely nothing of the sort. You honestly cannot even see an IMPLICATION of that in anything I have written. You have just completely made that up out of thin air.

Where in the hell did I ever say that youth from today have it worse than depression era children? I am not moving off of that until you back up your characterization of my argument with some FACTS. Where is it? You said that i said that. Where did I say that? Where did I imply that? I am challenging you to give me the exact quote out of any posting I have ever made in this forum where I have said that. If you cannot do that, then you ought to apologize to me for saying such a thing.

If you can even show that I actually implied such a thing, explain it to me. How did I even imply what you say that I said. What points did I make that would lead someone to rationally conclude that i was saying that today's youth have it worse than depression era children. Where is it? Quote me the language and explain how you reached that conclusion from what i wrote.

And what is this new thing you just mentioned? Where did I ever say that the job market today is worse than the Great Depression? Where the hell did that come from? I never mentioned comparing the job markets. I never even alluded to them or implied a comparison.

If you can't back up your argument with facts, then you ought to apologize for lying/mischaracterizing my argument. It's the right thing to do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

150. That is what I got from your post

sorry, but that is what I got.

Now if you want an apology for that, whatever

[Sir Jeffrey]

155. Didn't see anything resembling an apology in that statement...

"Man up" and back up your statement with some facts. I am WAITING to read your insightful analysis into how you got that I said or implied that today's youth have it worse than depression era folk.

You started this thread and wanted to hand out advice. Here is your chance to school a spoiled youth about his misstatements and misunderstanding of history. Don't back away from your duty. Take my own words and use them against me, if you can.

If you can't, do what I teach my 3 year old to do when she makes a mistake: apologize. It's the right thing to do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. Apologize for what? If you believe you were insulted

the only thing I can advise you is grow a thicker skin.

No I will not use the spell flame, or the grammar flame or any of many others that could be used in this case.

But I owe you NO apology, and if you are waiting for one... you will wait for a long time

[Sir Jeffrey]

161. ...

You seem unable to make simple distinctions in moderately difficult-to-understand concepts. It is possible to argue that today's problems facing the youth are much different from those suffered by depression era children without claiming that today's youth have it worse. In fact, that is the precise argument I made, and it is complete idiocy to even say that i implied that today's youth have it worse...but you were too dense to understand it...or you understand it now and simply refuse to admit your mistake.

In any event, I cannot open up your head and pour some amount of knowledge inside and hope it sticks to the lining of your brain. Believe whatever the fuck you want, but if you want to actually discuss this issue with me you need to at least admit that you were wrong to lie about what i said...or offer up some analysis to back up your claim.

[nadinbrzezinski]

178. ah now we are into the personal attack territory

bravo!

[Sir Jeffrey]

179. No personal attack there...

I said you were either "dense" or implied that you were too stubborn to admit that you were wrong. I stand by both statements until you produce evidence to support your mischaracterization about my arguments.

I also said that you were arguing a point grounded in "complete idiocy" since you are using reasoning that lacks ANY basis in fact or even a passing resemblance to any point I made. You can easily prove me wrong by backing up your claim that I allegedly said today's youth have it worse than depression era children. The fact that you have had 6 opportunities to offer ANY evidence that I said or implied that today's youth have it worse than depression era children and have offered precisely ZERO evidence in support of your claim just proves my point.

If I was going to go into personal attack mode, I would call you an "idiot" and "unable to reason your way out of a paper bag". I don't think either of those things. I think you had a knee-jerk reaction to what I wrote without actually reading and understanding the substantive arguments I made. Then you firmed up your position once I challenged you to produce any evidence. Then you read my posts and couldn't find any evidence, so you keep trying to make this about me.

Look, you can either continue to knee jerk your way around this thread or you can sit back and reflect for a bit on what I was actually saying. If you do that, you might get a bit of insight that you definitely would not get otherwise. If you don't want to be burdened with having to use your brain when you discuss something, then I am the wrong person to engage in conversation or debate.

So I am still waiting for you to offer SOME miniscule slice evidence that your characterization of my argument was not way off base. Got any?

[nadinbrzezinski]

186. Ok let me spell it to you in another language, since obviously you cannot get

it in English.

LO

Or in yet a second language

NYET

A third

NO


Now if you are too dense to get it that I do not feel I owe you an apology... maybe I should use the ignore feature. It is obvious that you want something you will NOT get.

So let me give the answer again in three different languages

LO

NYET

NO.

Clear enough?

By the way happy new year

[Sir Jeffrey]

188. A brief summary and conclusion to our "discussion"...

You: "Obvious advice to make everyone feel like they have some control over their finances."

Me: "Pointing out that your advice only goes so far as you do not run into any financial catastrophe."

You: "Non-sequitur about the Great Depression and ignoring the substance of Sir Jeffrey's post."

Me: "Pointing out that the Great Depression was a different time and pointing out that relying on advice that might have worked back then would not help if you had a financial catastrophe."

You: "Minimally addressing the substance of Sir Jeffrey's post but lying about the main point and getting indignant and patronizing."

Me: "Asking for some evidence that backs up your lie about the main point of my previous post, or an apology for being a liar. Also pointing out that arguing with you makes my head hurt."

You: "Ignoring Sir Jeffrey's request for evidence, but still assuming your lie was right. Deny the need to apologize for lying. Suggest that Sir Jeffrey reads a book he owns and has read multiple times."

Me: "Repeat request for evidence to back up nadinbrzezinski's lie or an apology, knowing it is pointless. Head hurts worse, but does not mention it. Suggests you get someone to read the substance of Sir Jeffrey's posts for you since you have difficulty reading."

You: "Conclusory statement that your lie is still true, throwing a new wrinkle that was never even discussed until you just made it up in this post, but still no evidence presented to support anything you say about Sir Jeffrey's posts. Remains indignant."

Me: "Seriously begins questioning your ability to read English. Demands evidence or a retraction. Would also like an apology but knows that is pointless."

You: "Conclusory statement. No apology."

Me: "Points out that a conclusory statement does not equal evidence to support your claim. Demands evidence or a retraction, knowing now that they will not be coming either. Points out that Sir Jeffrey's 3 year old daughter has mastered the art of apology, and compares that with nadinbrzezinski's inability to do so. Simply continues posting in case someone else reads this."

You: "No apology and no evidence. Threatens questioning Sir Jeffrey's grammar and spelling, ignoring your own spelling and grammar mistakes."

Me: "Restatement of Sir Jeffrey's original point. Questions your ability to make simple distinctions. Again demands evidence or a retraction."

You: "Personal attack accusation."

Me: "Refutes personal attack accusation. Points out you never offered evidence to support your lie. Demands evidence or a retraction. Secretly harbors shame to belong to the same basic political movement as nadinbrzezinski."

You: "Never will apologize for lying. Ignores demand for evidence or a retraction. Suggests Sir Jeffrey uses the ignore feature. Wishes Sir Jeffrey a happy new year."

My final post: "Wishes you a happy new year too. States that he will only post a response to your next post if it contains some evidence to back up your original lie about his posts. Otherwise, the seven opportunities to present evidence in support of your claim speak volumes about your position. Has never used the ignore feature and is not about to do so. Cheers."

[lumberjack_jeff]

171. So... don't save money because you'll get in a car wreck on the way to your divorce anyway? n/t

[Sir Jeffrey]

173. As long as the car wreck doesn't give you cancer n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

120. LOL!

Bravo! :applause:

[midlife_mo_Jo]

180. We (Americans)

could be a lot better off if we spent our money more wisely.

During the great depression, how many poor folks did you see at McDonalds with their three kids? Americans spend a fortune eating out. Fast food places thrive even in poor areas of this city.

I'm fifty-ish :) , and both my parents worked while I was growing up. We were very middle class. Even so, I doubt that our family ate out more than four or five times a year. Maybe once a month we picked up something like tamales or burgers. Once or twice during sports season, my parents might have taken us out for a malt after the game. Compare that to today's culture.

We didn't always cook "from scratch," but processed foods might have been canned green beans or maybe a box of mac n' cheese, not expensive already cooked foods from the deli or frozen section.

Compare that to how middle class folks live now. Some folks eat outmore in two weeks than we ate out in an entire year. (I've had weeks like that. :( ) Some folks don't even really know how to cook. (I have grown friends in their forties who still don't know how to cook!)

Sad to say, I know the greatest way for my family to save on our discretionary spending is to eat AT HOME! This thread is reminding me to do that.

To the OP, thank you for your tips.

[Sir Jeffrey]

181. You may want to revisit your post in about a year...

http://www.khou.com/news/health/stories/khou071218_ac_groceryprices.29d6bec5.html

snip

"The sharp rise in food prices seen in 2007 is expected to be followed by another higher-than-normal jump next year, the USDA said Monday. And 2008's punch will be to the bread basket.

Items made with wheat (breads and crackers) and soybean oil (cooking oil and fried foods) are expected to rise so much next year that they'll boost the cost of cooking at home by up to 4.5 percent – half a percentage point more than predicted just a month ago.

So pinched consumers thinking they can cut back by eating at home more will find little relief there. Home cooking remains less expensive than eating out, but the gap is closing.

This year is expected to go on record as having one of the largest increases in food prices since 1990 – a jump of 4 percent, according to economists at the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

And 2008 will bring another rise of at least 3 percent, according to the USDA forecast. Both rates are substantially higher than the 2.4 percent gains seen each year in 2005 and 2006 and the 1.8 percent rise in 2002."

end

What will the advice be for the poor and middle classes when it costs roughly the same to eat at McDonald's vs. cooking a decent meal at home?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

182. A large family

cannot eat at McDonald's for close to the amount we spend to eating at home.

Today we had bean soup (made from dried beans) with a nutritious salad for six people. By shopping wisely, I know this meal didn't cost more than six or seven dollars, and we have enough soup for leftovers. We would spend fifteen or twenty dollars easily at McDonalds and have no leftovers.

[Sir Jeffrey]

184. I am not disagreeing with you...

Today it is usually cheaper (and healthier) to cook a meal at home.

The trend, however, is toward parity. Again, what is the advice for the poor and middle classes if the trend holds and the cost comparison becomes negligible?

[nadinbrzezinski]

185. Leave the price, the health cost from eating at Mickey dees on a regular

basis are stagering

Those who like to touth the it is not that expensive to eat out forget the cost of Diabetes type II, or high blood pressure or hyperlipidemia (high cholesterol) and you welcome.

I suspect that if we took those costs into account eating at mickey dees would become down right prohibitive.

[raccoon]

189. Well said, and along with "don't get sick," also,

Don't develop any problems with your teeth--or your eyes. Especially if you aren't one of the few lucky ones to have dental or eye care insurance coverage.

I think some of what the OP said makes sense; some people can cut back on lattes or soemthing similarly nonessential. But if you make very little money, any spending on medical, dental, vision care can fricking wipe you out.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

121. I suspect that Nadin's advice is directed not at people who are already poor but

at people who are fairly well off and may face rough times in the future.

One piece of advice I would add is that if you move to a new community for a job, live in a place where you could walk, bike, or take transit to your job and essential stores and services if you had to. Cars are one of the worst money pits the world has ever seen, and each car you get rid of immediately raises your disposable income by $3000-6000, depending on whether it's paid for or not. This may be enough to pay for the difference between the rent or mortgage on a close-in residence and the rent or mortgage on an exurban residence.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. Yes, it is directed at people who are facing increasing difficult times

though I also made a reference to the wife of a PO4 US Navy They had two kids, they were on food stamps... and they still managed to put some money away. Even putting twenty away a month, is real money and builds up.

I also suspect that some folks are taking this as a personal attack (which is not) since they see this as a critique of how they live and I've heard many of this from navy wives, who also feel they need to keep up with the joneses.

Most folks have NO clue how to manage money.

My hubby has even said it, he has no clue. Before we married he was strapped at the end of the month. These days he always has money in his pocket... we still live on one salary.

I just applied what my mother told me when I was 18 and didn't click then.

[Ratty]

135. My problem is that I don't save enough

I'm not well off but I have a decent, secure job. I used to be able to save quite a bit each month. Then for the last year and a half I found I had to borrow from my savings every single month. WTF? I never used to have to do that! I don't live extravagantly, I've never owned a car. I've always paid my credit card off, never kept a balance. I have absolutely no debts, no mortgage, no kids to feed. Why was my paycheck suddenly not seeing me through to the end of the month? I wasn't in imminent danger of going broke--I'd managed to amass a respectable war chest of savings--but I could see the writing on the wall as I watched my savings shrink month to month. What if there was an emergency, what if I developed health problems and couldn't work or pay all my medical bills? What if I needed a lawyer or the rental property where I live burned down?

I'm not stupid, never been extravagant or grossly mismanaged my finances. Then I learned about the write-everything-down tip and I was amazed at what I could easily cut out each month, and what I'd been spending too much on without realizing it. I'd also not paid enough attention to the prices of things I bought regularly. They rose slowly enough for me not to really notice but over time it added up. I also learned about the true danger of credit cards. I'd never worried about them before since I always paid my balance off. It's just too easy to lose track of what you spend when you use a credit card for everything, they're dangerous even when you always pay everything off. When I put the credit card away for awhile my spending decreased substantially. BTW, NEVER cut your credit card up. You might find you're in a position someday where you can't get anyone to issue a new one and an emergency expense comes up. A credit card is always a good thing to have on hand when you need it.

So for the last couple of months I've actually had money left over from my paycheck that I could put back into my savings. I'm sorry if this seems overly simplistic to some people who are really struggling, but for my situation it was great advice. So NO it wasn't "obvious" to me, and I'm not stupid for not realizing it sooner (which is what some people seem to be implying).

[nadinbrzezinski]

136. Good for you

the write everything down routine, my mom told me about it oh when I was a teen. I always thought it was hockey, until I had to manage the family's budget.

And it is amazing what you spend on and never quite realize you are doing it.

For me milk has been the real shocker, how it has shot up

[mrreowwr_kittty]

127. If I followed your advice, I'd be broke today.

What you are saying is perfectly appropriate for some people but it all depends on your professional and social situation.

I'm in sales. That requires me to maintain a stylish and professional image (hair, nails, clothing, decent car and home). I also have to network with important people (coffee, lunches, networking meetings). I need to have the kind of knowledge that enables me to be comfortable in an affluent milieu (fine wines, fine restaurants, art, gadgets, and vacation spots). To a certain extent I've been able to fake it when I needed to but the plain fact is that I have to spend some money to get ahead. Sometimes it's money I don't have because my business is cyclical but if don't spend the money I won't make more.

This isn't just true for people in my industry, though it's much more pronounced for us. In this consumerist society, like it or not, you are judged by the clothes you wear, the possessions you have, and the activities you do. We all make decisions about who we hang out with, hire, or do business with based on these things.

And I really can't stand when someone like Suze Ormann goes on TV and wags her finger at people for buying stuff. While sitting there in her designer outfit and expensive hair and nails. It's hugely hypocritical to perpetuate consumerism while admonishing people for buying into it. Furthermore, 70% of America's GDP is consumer spending. If everyone stopped buying coffees and other crap, imagine how many people would be out of work in this service-based economy!

Again, I'm not faulting you for what you are saying but it's not going to work for everyone and it doesn't address the drastic overhaul of our economy that this nation needs.

[krabigirl]

130. Totally agree with you, especially what you said about Suze Ormann. Detest her. so hypocritical.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Who is she?

and by the way... don't watch much TV..

Can't you tell?

[Telly Savalas]

162. She's the Dr. Phil of personal finance.

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. Everybody has some discretionary spending that you can

eliminate... we all do...

That said, in your case those coffees with clients ARE a business expense, the same goes for your lunches with business associates... NOT the same thing... and if you do ENOUGH of them you can itemize at tax time. So make sure you get receipts, ok.

Those clothes, see above, business expense.

They are NOT discretionary.

So don't try to compare apples with oranges.

As to the economy being consumer driven, absolutely, and with the coming recession some of that will change, and slow down the economy. Hell, it is happening already.

Oh and you think people started judging people on what they wear and how their hair is coiffed last year? We are social animals, this has been going on since EVAH... just read some descriptions on the court at Versaille for some really entertaining accounts of that same phenomena.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

140. Most of the things I'm talking about are NOT considered business expenses

I can't deduct what I spend on clothing and hair, and can only deduct part of the coffees and meals. Yet these things are crucial to my success. And I made the point that it's not just for people in sales.

There's a thing called social capital. It encompasses your exposure to things that are the markers of class and caste. It comes from your socio-economic background and social connections. It's a way bigger factor in getting ahead than education or drive. As you say, it has always been the case, it just changes form over time. That's why Starbucks lattes are de rigeur now, while plain old Maxwell House was fine 20 years ago. It's why kids clamor for designer clothes and ipods now. When I was a kid, it was designer clothes and Walkmans. But one thing hasn't changed, and that's that people make instant judgments about you based on externals like that, and it can have a profound impact on your life. Kids are keenly aware of the social consequences they face for not having the "right" things. What adults call being a spendthrift or frivolous is usually a pragmatic and logical decision on the part of the young person. The pressure is more subtle for us adults, but it is still very much there.

That's why I disagree with simplistic advice about saving money. Too often it ignores the realities of people's lives and the very reasonable perceptions they have of what they need to operate in the world. It's blaming them for being rational actors in the environment they are in.

[nadinbrzezinski]

144. Well that "simplistic" advise has been used for decades, if not

hundreds of years. I guess some of those real slouches such as Ben Franklin had no clue either

[Zorra]

174. Interesting. Then "consumerism" is way of life that feeds on itself

until all resources are used up and the environment is destroyed.

In order to make more, people have to use more, until, eventually, there is no more.

Seems to me that wemay want to re-think and change the way our economy operates.

[krabigirl]

129. Hmmm...already do all of that, thanks. And yes, I'm "younger."

[cynthia]

134. the best advice for young people is to avoid credit cards altogether

Two of my kids treat them like poison, and the almost daily offers that come in the mail go straight into the shredder.

A better approach is to use the ATM card as a credit card/debit card so that it is coming straight out of you account and you can't spend what you don't have.

Teaching them to open and use a savings account is a lot harder.

[Telly Savalas]

163. If one wants to build a good credit score to get favorable financing terms

for things like home loans, then it's a good idea to have credit cards so long as you don't actually use them. That would take a lot of discipline though.

[earth mom]

145. With prices rising the way they are right now, I don't think it's just a matter of cutting corners.

My husband is finally making what is considered a very good income, but the prices of EVERYTHING have risen to the point that it cuts that raise to almost what we were living on a few years ago-which was as the working poor.

While well intended, your post doesn't speak to this at all and it's a glaring omission.

And I say this as someone who is unable and hates to pay retail, shops thrift stores and garage sales, cuts my family and the dogs hair, rarely gets Starbucks or dinner out and never goes to the movies. We don't have cable t.v. We also don't have credit cards and so we pay for what we need and want after we've saved up with cash. We went without a computer all this summer while we saved up to buy a new one. My idea of a shopping spree is going to the fabric or craft store for a few things. We have a car payment, mortgage, student loans, a fixer upper house and assorted other bills that we are paying off slowly but surely. Are there corners to be cut around here? Yeah, if we could find homes for a few cats and my hubby would quit smoking. And btw, he rolls his own cigarettes.

Quite honestly, I think that you are ignoring the elephant in the room; which is that the relentless rising cost of everything has far exceeded and far outpaced income in todays economy.

What is happening is crippling to the middle class and devastating to the working poor.

No amount of "budgeting" is going to change that.

The book Nickle and Dimed by Barbara Ehrenreich is a great example of what I'm talking about.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. Actually I am not

What I described are the techniques used by depression era folks, as well as wise people before and after that

By the way, EVERY family has expenditures in things that can be cut

Oh and reality is that saving is not enough, you also need to invest.

[earth mom]

148. Have you read Nickle and Dimed? If not, please do.

To be honest, I think you are having a knee jerk reaction to my post. I know your intentions are good in posting the original OP. But you are ignoring the real problem here.


You can't save one thin dime if you are living paycheck to paycheck and just keeping your head above water while the prices continue to rise with no end in sight.


FYI-My husband and I were both raised by depression era parents. We know ALL about saving and stretching a dollar until it screams. My dad ate lunch from a paper bag his entire working life. I don't think he ever drank a cup of coffee that didn't come out of a thermos from home. My mother made our pinch pleated drapes in the living room and some of my clothes when I was growing up. My mother in law saves string and every bit of paper to reuse, just a couple of things among the many of her cost cutting practices. My MIL is the queen of penny pinching.


Sure, maybe my hubby and I could cut a few more corners, not that we are living high on the hog in the first place.

But that doesn't change the fact that the relentless and oppressive rising prices of everything have a stranglehold on everyone in this country.

And that fact is really the more important issue here.

Rather than the notion that people need to simply cut corners to make ends meet.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. Ok let me address this

1.- Conditions with inflation ARE BAD, but not as bad as the Depression, which for the record was deflationary, not inflationary. Nor are they as bad as they could get. Have lived in countries with HYPERINFLATION and though we have a higher rate than the official rate, it is NOWHERE CLOSE to hyperinflation. Nowhere near the official 4%, most likely about 20% in some essential items, such as milk. But we are NOWHERE close to hyperinflation.

2.- I have read nickeled and dimmed, and I will contest that we all can still cut a corner here or there to stretch our dollars, some of us do it better than others... and problem is most folks simply resist.

3.- You are assuming we don't live paycheck to paycheck. Surprise, we do.

4.- These are NOT simplistic solutions and the reaction by some here (since it would put a crimp in lifestyles) is telling.

5.- There are SYSTEMIC problems in the country that need to be addressed at the policy level. Once again this is not what this post is about. If it were, I'd be talking of LIVING WAGES not minimum wage, and healthcare insurance as in national, single payer programs, alas this is about what the individual can do.

6.- Trust me, the historical record is clear on this... as bad as things are right now, they are not even close to the Great Depression. And I hope (not counting on it) that we don't get there either. If we do, then people will realize the old adage, as bad as things are right now, they can get much and I mean this MUCH worst.

[earth mom]

151. Well, I'm expecting things to get worse, a helluva lot worse.

I have no doubt that my husbands pay raise is being eaten up by inflation, and there are some grim days ahead because his pay schedule will not keep up with it the way it's going.

Not only that, but if this continues the way it has been, I foresee us living in worse conditions than we were in before the pay raise.

It's gonna be a bumpy ride and I'm worried that we will be able to hang on this time around. No amount of cutting corners is going to change that.

BTW-I'm not resisting anything. It's just that there is little in my lifestyle to "crimp". And I think you will find that is true for the majority of the country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. You may be the exception

and I agree, I expect things to get much, and I mean MUCH worst

But we are not YET in hyperinflation territory.

When we get there, you will know... that is when a loaf of bread starts the day at five bucks and ends the day at 5.50 on a good day and by the end of the week it is 10.

We are not there yet.

;-)

[earth mom]

156. Not the exception-I think most are in the same boat.

And no, we're not there.....yet.

The only silver lining is that I'm glad that I have a few talents like sewing that I may be able to barter when the time for $10 bread arrives. My contribution to our household finances has always been on the creative side and I have a feeling that my knack for creativity will come in really handy then.

O8)

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. We also live paycheck to paycheck

and making ends meet is not easy. But I still try... and manage most of the time to put money away.

That is what is amazing to me... and to creativity, if it gets really bad (and it may), then we will both have to use barter,

[earth mom]

159. Hopefully we will all help each other in our local communities.

Which makes me think of the novel, "Into the Forest" by Jean Hegland.

Have you read it? It's a must read, IMHO.

I hope it doesn't get that bad here where it's everyone for themselves....

[sendero]

183. We all know that..

... wages are low and prices (for some things) are high. (Prices for consumer goods are dramatically lower, thanks to China).

We know that some people really don't make enough to save anything. But guess what? The problem of lowering wages is not something you or I can address. You might as well get used to it because it is not going away.

When there is a problem, there are often parts of the problem that are out of your control, but how you spend whatever money you do have is in your control.

All the OP and I are saying is that DO WHAT YOU CAN WITH THE CONTROL YOU HAVE.

[nadinbrzezinski]

187. For the wonky answers see here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2562441

Those are the what we can do, or hope for at the policy level. They include higher wages by the way

[tom_paine]

154. Excellent post, nadin. K & R

[lumberjack_jeff]

166. Have you read "your money or your life" by Joe Dominguez? n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

177. No, but I guess that will go in my list of books to read

thanks

[bonito]

172. Kick

[mdmc]

191. kick