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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:43 AM
Original message
Why Bush Was Shaken ....
" A former high-level State Department official, who maintained close contact with events in Pakistan, told me in October 2001 that he understood that Musharraf had assured the Bush Administration that ‘only the most reliable military people remain in control of the arsenal, and if there’s any real worry he’d disarm them. He does not want the crazies to precipitate a war.’ By then, however, the administration was reviewing and ‘refreshing’ its contingency plans for securing, or possibly ‘exfiltrating,’ Pakistan’s warheads in the event that Musharraf’s government lost control.

"An elite undercover unit operating under Pentagon control with CIA assistance – trained to slip into foreign countries and find suspected nuclear weapons, and disarm them if necessary – was exploring plans for an operation inside Pakistan, past and present government officials told me. ‘They’re good,’ one American said. ‘If they screw up, they die. They’ve had good success in proving the negative’ – that is, in determining that suspected facilities in third-world countries were not nuclear-related.

"The American team was apparently getting help from Israel’s most successful special operations unit, the storied Sayeret Matkal, also known as Unit 262, a deep-penetration unit that has been involved in assassinations, the theft of foreign signals-intelligence materials, and the theft and destruction of foreign nuclear weaponry. Members of the Israeli unit arrived in the United States a few days after September 11th, an informed source said, and trained with American Special Forces units at undisclosed locations.

"Such operations depend on intelligence, however, and there is disagreement within the Administration about the quality of the CIA’s data. The American intelligence community could not be sure, for example, that it knew the precise whereabouts of every Pakistani warhead – or whether all the warheads that it found were real. …. A government expert on Pakistan’s nuclear capabilities depicted the issue in strategic terms: ‘The United States has to look at a new doctrine. Our nuclear strategy has to incorporate the fact that we might have a nuclear-armed fundamentalist government in Pakistan. Even if we know where the weapons are now, it doesn'’ mean we'’l know where they are if the fundamentalists take over. .…’

"A senior military officer, after confirming that intense planning for a possible exfiltration of warheads was under way, said that he had been concerned of warheads was under way, said he had been concerned not about a military coup but about a localized insurrection by a clique of ISI officers in the field who had access to a nuclear storage facility. …."

--Chain of Command; Seymour Hersch; pages 292-294

Yesterday, I posted a thread that said President Bush looked shaken when he delivered his brief comment about events in Pakistan. I suspect his discomfort can be attributed to a couple of things: first, his "comfort zone" is when he feels he is in complete control, and in terms of public addresses, can deliver a scripted message; and second, because while the assassination of Bhutta was not unexpected, at the time when Bush was preparing to face the cameras, US intelligence could not say for sure who was behind the assassination, and hence, there were serious questions about what (if any) the US response should be. Thus, the sad excuse for a president appeared to be doing a Barney Fife impersonation when he was pushed in front of the cameras.

Of course, the Bush administration and the republican puppet-candidates will say that the assassination was the work of "terrorists." They will refuse to consider, much less discuss, the possibility that the Bush-Cheney "war on terror" – especially the horrible failure in Iraq – has made the world a less stable, and indeed increased the risks for violence to spin far more out of control than it has in the past six years.

While the administration will point fingers towards al Qaeda, they will refuse to acknowledge the overlap between the Pakistani military and ISI with al Qaeda. The fact is that they are as closely connected as was the Mississippi police forces in the 1950s and ‘60s, and the Ku Klux Klan.

It is important that the democratic candidates for president speak openly and honestly about these issues. The democratic members of congress must also step up to the plate, and be honest about the fact that the administration has done severe damage to our national security – including their policies in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan, as well as the lies about Iran; the Office of the Vice President’s criminal operation against the intelligence community’s WMD programs (the Plame scandal); and the OSP’s role in the neocon/AIPAC espionage scandal.

The damage done by the Bush-Cheney administration can not be repaired in a brief time. It will, in fact, take decades, in the best case scenario. But we can begin today. That requires the democratic leadership to step up to a level of honesty and bravery that only a very few of them have even considered in the past.

We do not have a "perfect" candidate. But we have a group of candidates who can combine talents and skills to work for a stable and safer future for our country, and indeed the world. For example, if Senator Biden is not the nominee, he most certainly should be the Secretary of State in the next administration.

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
1. What kind of mentality relies on 'exfiltration' of nuclear warheads ....
Edited on Fri Dec-28-07 09:54 AM by TahitiNut
... and believes that (1) only the "good guys" have the skill and intelligence to do this, and (2) the consequences of doing so are certain to be better? After all, once nuclear warheads are on the move who's to claim that there's greater control over their whereabouts and destinations than existed when they were in-place?

It's a dangerous game ... to have people so over-endowed with self-centered HUBRIS concocting such tactics.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. It is dangerous, indeed.
Perhaps more so when the administration includes not only clowns who do not know what the Cuban missle crisis was, but when it is made up of fools who know what it was, but lack insight about why JFK resolved it in the manner he did. As we found out in recent years, the US intelligence that was being pushed by those advocating a military strike on Cuba was seriously flawed -- and when it comes to nuclear weapons, a flaw does not need to be "large" to be potentially tragic.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. my understanding is that
bush/rice concocted the whole bhutto plan in an effort to save pakistan in an american (daydream) styled democracy. Bush would get his election, and proudly tell the world that his effort to export democrats was working. Wait. I meant democracy.

We certainly contributed greatly to Pakistan's instability. I only wish our candidates would stand up and tell it like it is.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I think that
the administration had hoped to bring Bhutta in, because their ability to influence Musharraf was declining. The administration's policies in Afghanistan and Iraq have increased the Muslim world's dislike of all things associated with the US. Musharraf is not a loyal member of the Bush administration, who is confident that the president will pardon him if he faithfully parrots the party line.

Our candidates need to be honest, and put their cards on the table. That includes admitting that the congressional support of the administration's war of occupation in Iraq has made the us less safe.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
18. Do you think Clinton, Edwards, Dodd and Biden thus made a mistake in
voting to approve the war authorization resolution in 2002? That giving Bush that power showed poor judge of character?

Does this mean we should give Kucinich and Obama more consideration, as they were opposed before the war vote was taken?

Edwards actually co-sponsored the war vote, saying "We know Saddam has WMDs" while Hillary was finally convinced to vote YES by Rice who told her "Dick might have gotten confused" about the Authorization resolution being for war instead of inspectors first.

The Washington insiders played their hands all wrong as soon as the Taliban were kicked out of Kabul, and that's why were are where are today.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Those are valid questions.
My opinion is that it is more important to focus on what each one believes now, and what course they advocate that we take.

It is also important to take into account that some made mistakes; even though the administration is responsible for purposefully lying to congress and the public, it is worth considering if Clinton, Edwards, Dodd and Biden fell for it hook, line and sinker. In Biden's case, for example, we know that he had attempted to slow the administration's rush to war. (His effort was undercut by Dick Gephardt, who wanted to appear tough for the '04 primaries.)

Edwards has admitted that he had made a serious error. Being able to admit when you are wrong is a good quality.

I'm always in favor of giving both Kucinich and Obama full consideration. I believe that those who dismiss Kucinich, because they do not think he can be elected, are missing the point of his message: it's important to tell the truth, and public officials who purposefully lie and deceive must be held accountable. I think it is just as true when a short congressman says this, as when a tall senator does. Those who don't see that have a blind spot.

In many ways, I believe that Senator Obama offers the nation our best chance to move forward into the future without the balls & chains associated with those who have fully supported the Bush-Cheney administration. Earlier today, I had an e-mail from an associate who noted that one of the most frustrating things about the crisis in Pakistan is that the rest of the world knows it cannot look to the United States for help. It's not that this is the first administration that has made errors -- even serious errors. But it is the first administration that is fully corrupt. Even when Nixon was being pressed by congress on Watergate, his administration was actually able to take meaningful actions in the Middle East. Yet the same can not be said today. How tragic.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
2. If These Guys Are So Good, That Begs The Question
of why the WMD claim in Iraq went unchallenged. Also. we're expecting another 'Bin Laden' tape today, supposedly about Iraq and I think I read or heard that Zawahiri was the one who ordered Bhutto's death. Nothing to date has been done about any of this. Unless that statement by Bhutto about the man who murdered Bin Laden wasn't a misspeak and all that's been happening has been the boys playing dangerous games. The most dangerous ones, of course, being the ones that */Cheney have been playing.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. I missed that one, Me. Where's the thread about Bhutto saying some man
murdered bin Laden?

:freak: This just keeps getting more interesting all the time. Tragic.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Here You Go
Edited on Fri Dec-28-07 01:09 PM by Me.
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. Thanks!
Got it. Makes ya go "hmmmm".
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #2
41. The claims of WMD in Iraq went unchallenged because cheney*/bush* ordered it so.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Be That As It May
There have always been leaks. I also question the Pentagon's motives in letting the war go forward. They had gamed it and knew it was being done wrong, many said so and lost their jobs. They knew it had the potential of crippling our military, so why do it if they had the means of knowing better?
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Because the Military/Industrial machine that is a MAJOR force in this country needs conflict to
profit. As far as the warmongering industries are concerned, there is no profit in peace. Peace does not sell weapons, jets, ships and other instruments of war and destruction. War, its infrastructure and implements are this country's biggest business. And in addition, the Texas-American Petroleum Mafia had their sites firmly on Iraq. In fact, even before 9/11 Iraq's oilfields had already be divied up. Rampant speculation by those in the industry is that cheney*'s supersecret energy advisement group figured the conquest and occupation into their plans. And this long before 9/11.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. Good Points
Mine is this. They knew beforehand the potentially consequences it would have on the services. Why would they cannibalize themselves for something they knew wouldn't succeed? They could have stopped it. Unless a few, like the Betrayus types he;d them hostage for the sake of ambition. I still remember Shinseki's warnings.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #41
53. Unchallenged by whom?
Virtually every single one of the "weapons inspectors" said they did not believe Saddam had nukes nor was he actively seeking them. Millions of people around the world challenged the Administration over it..But the majority of our Democratic Senators and Representatives decided it would be in their best "political interests" to go along. They did not want to be branded as weak on National Security..But by voting in this manner that is exactly what they did. As it turns out those that opposed IWR were looking out for our National Interest in a far wiser manner.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
3. Will it make a difference?
Certainly, the Bush-Cheney policy of resolutely throwing gasoline on raging infernos has been a failure since before it was implemented. The fact that this political assassination was carried out in Rawalpindi, a heavily garrisoned city, right under the noses of Pakistan's alleged security force, indicates one of several options, none of them savory in the least.

Musharraf's government and security apparatus was powerless to prevent this killing. For the last six years, it's been incessantly drummed into our heads that only with more violence will we overcome the terrorist violence. This sort of knocks that into a cocked hat. Must be some other explanation.

Musharraf's government and security apparatus could have stopped this assassination, but did not. Now, why would that be? This leads to a whole line of questioning that the Bush administration would probably not like to contemplate. Luckily, our stalwarts of the Fourth Estate will not have the bad taste to go down that road. Must be some other explanation.

Hmmm think, think.
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. Could the press conference been taped?
Edited on Fri Dec-28-07 10:14 AM by DemReadingDU
We did not see any reporters. We heard cameras clicking, but that clicking noise could have been dubbed in. Bush could have looked shaken, maybe because the conference had to be re-taped a number of times possibly resulting in the conference being late. It was an unusual conference, even for Bush. And he left so abruptly.


edit to add a video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnYPUmDVqLI

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w8liftinglady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. I believe it was...probably his 5th take
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Richard D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. It was hard werk . . .
. . . reading all those words.

The moron couldn't even get a full sentence out without reading from his script.
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rockybelt Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. Ya think maybe
since it was an off night they might have had to prop the shrub up from a drunken stupor?
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
9. but not stirred
ba-dump-dump-ching!

Thanks folks, I'll be here all week.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
11. You have to wonder if an "exfiltration" operation wasn't underway in the U.S.
on August 30th. Kind of gives you the willies, doesn't it?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/2007-09-05-b-52_N.htm
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Are these the same people
that 'exfiltrated' the Bin Laden family out of the US?
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
13. Thanks. The world needs to see that the USA has turned around, towards peace.
The change of parties in the US has never presented a better opportunity to clean up a mess. If that "change" is real and pronounced, other positive changes will follow fast.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Excellent point.
Edited on Fri Dec-28-07 01:10 PM by DCKit
If we were to become the Shining Beacon of Democracy we're supposed - and keep claiming - to be instead the world's biggest, fattest and baddest superbully with nooquelur weapons, the dominating decider of world events and dungheap of moral hipocisy, a few countries might begin to follow our example and the whole thing would snowball. But that is asking a lot.

On Edit:

Forgot to mention he looked like SHIT yesterday. WTF? I've never seen anyone decline/age so quickly or poorly in my life, and I've got several friends in their 80's.
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louis-t Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. In 6 months, the makeup will no longer
cover the ugly.
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Shipwack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
38. Carter aged rapidly in the Whitehouse...
Though I think it was stress of a good man worrying about innocent American lives (the hostage crisis), as well as being constantly surprised by the evil in the world and at home.

Bush's stress comes from being an evil man that is in over his head, constantly worrying that the bodies will float to the surface, and/or everyone will realize he's not that smart.
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Annces Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
15. I think this is likely true - thanks for the analysis n/t
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
16. Thoughtfully done.
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
17. insightful n/t
k & r
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. With each crisis
it becomes more apparent that Bush is a sad marionette. I'm still undecided as to whether he's instrumental in the plans/ops of his people or just an incidental face man, but I know (and he knows) he does more harm to his "glorious legacy" each time he opens his pie hole.

I really believe he was told he'd only have to make a couple of speeches a year, and the rest of the time he could just sit back and let Unka Dick and the Little Rascals do the heavy lifting.

For a while it seemed he enjoyed getting out there and spouting off about things. Recently, however, he looks like a guy who isn't getting paid overtime for these unscheduled events, and his attitude is made even more petulant by the fact that they keep interrupting his precious brush-clearing time.

This half-baked plan to put Bhutto in as a check for Musharaf was an expensive band-aid on a huge gaping wound. They chose to ignore Pakistan and Afghanistan, and this is the result of our foreign policy "expertise".
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Sad marionette, yes.
But how can he not intimately have known from his childhood on the plans of his father and grandfather and their friends?
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rosesaylavee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. And Jeb as well.
I am not taking my eye off that guy. Somehow I think they still have plans for that one.
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balantz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Good point.
In some ways Jeb may be less of a puppet. I think Jr. was chosen this time around because he is better talking puppet material for pushing their agenda at this time without trying to make any decisions. Jeb might be better at actually implementing parts of the plan himself when Cheney goes into "retirement".
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
36. It was always supposed to be Jeb
But at least for the next 4 or 8 years, he's got no chance. The stink of W is all over their name. So much so, if you'll remember, it made Poppy cry.

Having had Jeb as my governor for WAAAAAY too long, I can tell you that he's just as evil and insipid, but at least he lies in complete sentences.
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DireStrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Didja ever see that video of W when he was gov. of Texas?
He seems quite coherent.

Ah, here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw4Bhmm22xo
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #36
52. The only reason we escaped Jeb in the White House was Walkin' Lawton's victory over him in 1994.
RIP, Governor Chiles, and thank you. You left a trail for us to follow.



(St. Petersburg Times files: Fraser Hale 1995)
Wrapped in a coon-skin vest (if you don’t know why, ask a longtime Floridian), former Gov. Lawton Chiles is inaugurated for his second term in January 1995.



Jeb! and his big, hairy, audacious goals are in a real pickle.


His brother has enraged the world. Floridians have long memories of the Jeb years. Jeb's slimy business dealings with CSX, FEC, Nigerian water pumps, St. Joe Company, Armando Codina, Enron, the Broward Savings and Loan debacle, the Medicare/HMO ripoff, the illegal voter roll purges, his role in the 2000 election theft, the Schiavo debacle, his actions in the Martin Lee Anderson boot camp death investigation, and other "devious plans", are getting new scrutiny. His role at Lehman in the recent Florida investment fund meltdown is under investigation.


Jeb! is all dressed up, with nowhere to go.












"The old he-coon walks just before the light of day." ---Governor Lawton Chiles, November 1, 1994



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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-30-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. That quote is a classic
Dave Barry was just talking about it on Michael Putney's show. LOL.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
47. Absolutely, whatever Republican candidate choses him as a running mate...
would certainly have a death wish.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Cocaine and alcohol
can make you see what you want to see and gives you the ability to ignore the rest. He was in a fog through his 40s.

I was really referring to decisions made on a daily basis. I imagine 90 percent of the things aren't even run by him, they just tell him where to show up and what to wear. I can't believe he woke up one day and thought of a way to deal with the Musharraf situation. I can't imagine he thinks much past eating breakfast and watching cartoons.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. Howdy Doodoo has never been "in charge" ... he's a narcissist puppet controlled by his appetites.
I've never seen a more obvious human sack of shit. Smirk fronts for the Sneer.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
24. Very few in a position of influence are willing to address the al-Qaeda/ISI overlap.
No politician has done so in the wake of Bhutto's assassination, to my knowledge. As far as mainstream media coverage, I wish I could have seen Keith Olbermann last night. I heard he gave this some great coverage and I hope he continues that tonight.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Here you go:
Video excerpts of last night's show. Scroll down to the "Countdown" section of the page:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8004316/

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rockybelt Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
30. Not to mention the fact
that Bushco was the sole reason that Bhutto returned to Pakistan when she did. The bush administration wanted her in Pakistan to strike a deal with Musharraf in order for Musharraf to remain in power. That was the only reason for Bhutto to be in Pakistan. To save face with Bushco. The same with everything this bush regime touches, it turns into, at the very best, a disaster. Musharraf's position is weak at the moment and the assassination of Bhutto does nothing to strengthen his position any further.

The candidates MUST step up. Beyond that, the Congress MUST step up to remove this administration through impeachment before they actually do start WWIII. If they haven't already with this latest fiasco.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. The administration
was losing influence with Musharraf. It reminds me of something Malcolm X used to say: When the puppet begins to talk back to the puppeteer, the puppeteer is in trouble.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
33. Excellent post/thoughts/advice for our candidates.
Edited on Fri Dec-28-07 06:30 PM by mzmolly
To expand on what you noted - it can't hurt to remind voters that Bush pursued Saddam Hussein as opposed to OBL and Al-Qaida and that's a major reason that "terrorists" remain in a position of power today.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
34. K&R. (nt)
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
37. I think Bush assured her she would be safe and he knows Pakistan's military let her die
which would shake him up terribly. Isn't he supposed to be the decider? Didn't he buy Pakistan's loyalty with billions of dollars?

His first response must have been anger. I will bet that he wanted to hold Musharraf accountable for failing to force the police to provide Bhutto adequate protection. However, someone---Cheney?---told him "No. You are not allowed to say a word to Musharraf." At which point poor, figure head Dumbya started to suspect that when he told Bhutto that she would be safe in Pakistan, he was telling her a great big lie.

That would weigh on him sorely, Bush being so partial to the women--and so fond of the illusion that his job is to bring democracy to other countries. By now, I think it has probably occurred to him that he mostly brings death and suffering to other countries.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Everytime I see the words 'bring democracy' I want to yell out - they
only want the illusion, not the real thing - or we would have it ourselves.

We export democracy rhetoric and it is infected with the death our leaders have dreamed up at the cost of poverty for its citizens. Anyone not starting to feel the poverty has their money overseas and not in dollars.

Between the rising seas, rotten fish, and the agendas of some slime, we are in trouble if there is no miracle.
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pnorman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-28-07 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
42. "as closely connected as was the Mississippi police forces in the 1950s and ‘60s, and the KKK"
That's as accurate and succint a description of the situation that prevailed in Pakistan for so many years, as I've seen so far. But until now, it wasn't a "popular" thing to say.

pnorman
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ScooterFibby Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 12:11 AM
Response to Original message
46. We need a full investigation THIS time
While the administration will point fingers towards al Qaeda, they will refuse to acknowledge the overlap between the Pakistani military and ISI with al Qaeda. The fact is that they are as closely connected as was the Mississippi police forces in the 1950s and ‘60s, and the Ku Klux Klan.


This is a dramatic turn of phrase, but you offer no substantiation for your claims.

Mushareff apparently fell short in providing security to Bhutto. His claim that he was unable to guarantee her safety is no excuse for his failure to provide the bulletproof glass, IED jammers, and additional police car flanking that she requested. She had provided an email about her concerns for her safety, laying blame at the feet of Mushareff and the intelligence services. (source: NPR)

Exactly how and where Al Qaeda overlaps with the Pakistani military is going to be very hard, if not impossible, to determine. Likely there are low level operatives in the military with dual allegiances, but finding them will be problematic.

Who prevented the additional security and equipment from reaching Bhutto, and why? Who prevented the involvement of the FBI and Scotland Yard from investigating forensic evidence of the previous assassination attempt, and why? Bhutto had requested foreign assistance by those agencies in the investigation from Mushareff, but it never happened.

The Congress should pass a resolution indicating its sense that the FBI should assist in a full investigation of the assassination.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #46
48. Clinton calls for international investigation into assination of Bhutto
Forum Name Hillary Clinton Supporters Group
Topic subject Clinton calls for international investigation into assination of Bhutto
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=334x507#507
507, Clinton calls for international investigation into assination of Bhutto
Posted by rodeodance on Fri Dec-28-07 04:23 PM

Forum Name General Discussion: Politics
Topic subject Oh, Snap! Clinton says something that would be at home on DU
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3899391#3899391
3899391, Oh, Snap! Clinton says something that would be at home on DU
Posted by Kurt_and_Hunter on Fri Dec-28-07 03:44 PM

Nice to see the occasional anti-establishment barb from the establishment candidate. "Why does she hate America???"

Blitzer: Senator, just to be precise; you want a United Nations international tribunal, or commission of inquiry, whatever you want to call it, along the lines of the investigation into the assassination of Rafik Hariri?

HRC: There are other institutions that are international that have credibility, like INTERPOL and others. It doesn’t have to be the exact model of the Hariri investigation but it needs to be international, it needs to be independent, it needs to have credibility and nothing that would happen inside of Pakistan would. I’m reluctant to say it should be an American investigation where we send our law enforcement personnel, because I’m not sure that would have credibility for a different reason. So that’s why I’m calling for an independent international investigation.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/release/view/?id=4942
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Topic subject Clinton calls for probe of Bhutto killing
Forum Name Latest Breaking News
Topic subject Clinton calls for probe of Bhutto killing
Topic URL http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3117538#3117538
3117538, Clinton calls for probe of Bhutto killing
Posted by rodeodance on Fri Dec-28-07 05:30 PM

Source: reuters

Clinton calls for probe of Bhutto killing

By Ellen Wulfhorst 1 hour, 59 minutes ago

STORY CITY, Iowa (Reuters) - Democrat Hillary Clinton called on Friday for an international probe of Benazir Bhutto's killing and candidates in both parties sparred over foreign policy six days before Iowa kicks off a close presidential nominating race.


Clinton, battling rivals Barack Obama and John Edwards for the lead in Iowa, questioned the reliability of Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf's government after opposition leader Bhutto's assassination.

"I don't think the Pakistani government at this time under President Musharraf has any credibility at all," Clinton said in an interview with CNN as she campaigned across Iowa. "Therefore I am calling for a full independent international investigation."
.........



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071228/pl_nm/usa_politics_dc
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bluescribbler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-29-07 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
51. Shaken?
At first I thought you meant that Babs shook him when he was a baby. It would explain a lot.
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