"They Were Never Yours To Give"

[derby378]

No soldier ever gave me freedom of the press;
It was mine as soon as I knew there was more than one opinion.

No soldier ever gave me freedom of speech;
It was mine as soon as words came out of my mouth.

No soldier ever gave me the freedom to demonstrate;
It was mine as soon as my government failed me.

No soldier ever gave me the freedom to worship God;
It was mine as soon as I heard the voice from within and without.

And you stand there in your uniform,
And accuse me of ingratitude,
For you have stood on the front lines,
And I have not.

But the freedoms that I have
To read, to speak,
To protest, to worship,
Are forever beyond your ability to grant,
Though it is well within your power
To defend them or infringe upon them.

Proud soldier, I thank you
For standing so that I did not have to,
But a soldier's duty is to obey orders,
Even those of a tyrant.

And a patriot's duty is to keep the tyrant in check.

So choose this day whose side you're on.

[TNOE]

1. Who wrote this?

Man, it is great. I'm copying.

[derby378]

2. 'Twas myself

And please, by all means, feel free to copy and post wherever you go. :hi:

[TNOE]

7. Wow, this is seriously good!

You should enter it into some contest, or submit it as Letter to the Editor or something!

[Taverner]

26. No shit - that was AWESOME!

At first I thought it was something Maya Angelou might write..

[derby378]

28. Now I'm REALLY blushing...

Comparing me to Maya herself? Aw, shucks...

:blush:

[malaise]

14. It's very good

YOu have some serious talent. :yourock:

[derby378]

17. You're very kind

:blush:

[calimary]

58. Splendid! Just utterly splendid!

Somebody ought to set it to music.

REALLY nicely done!

:headbang:

[Eric J in MN]

62. kick

kick

[helderheid]

107. Error: you can only recommend threads which were started in the past 24 hours

WOW! Please submit this far and wide! WELL DONE!

[Greyhound]

49. Wow, that is very good, thank you.

:kick: & R

[Rabrrrrrr]

3. That's pure gold!

Thanks for posting it!!

[derby378]

5. You are so welcome

Again, feel free to spread it. Make the FReepers boil with anger.

[WHAT]

19. It's good...

You should send it to the "Stars and Stripes". I bet it would engender a lot of interesting discussion.

[Warpy]

4. Nobody can take any of these freedoms from me

without my permission.

They don't have it.


(Just a suggestion. Otherwise, it's great!)

[treestar]

6. Excellent

Freepish soldiers need to be reminded of this - and so does the "support-the-troops-is-only-possible-by-supporting-the-Iraq-war" crowd.

[redqueen]

8. derby my friend, that is fantastic!

:applause:

[derby378]

21. Aw, bless your heart...

:hug:

[Reverend_Smitty]

9. Great work!

:toast:

[Richard Steele]

10. Rec # 5!

[aikoaiko]

11. This one will go around the internet world very fast.

You subverted something very important to certain folks. Be careful.

[derby378]

12. Ah, let 'em howl and whine about it

I spoke truth to power, so sensitivities be damned. :toast:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

75. Heh. Didn't take long, did it? You didn't even have to send it anywhere else!

It baffles me that one should take exception of what you wrote, which was actually in good taste and very respectful of the military.

[procopia]

61. Mostly subverting something important to those

who use the troops to discourage dissent about the war.

[ninkasi]

13. That's great!

Thank you.

[shadowknows69]

15. Excellent K+R

n/t

[uppityperson]

16. Very nice, thank yo.

[Horse with no Name]

18. Brilliant.

K&R

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. Nicely Written, But I Do Not Agree With It.

We absolutely have many soldiers to thank for our freedoms and I will not take that away from them; ever.

I absolutely thank all those that have ever fought on the battlefield for our ability to be free.

[derby378]

27. I think the point was that our troops DEFENDED our freedom...

...but never gave us our freedom.

Our own Declaration of Independence speaks of us being "endowed by our Creator with certain inalienable rights." That's what I was trying to get across.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. I Know What You Were Trying To Get Across, I Just Simply Don't Agree With It.

I thought you did a really nice job anyway, though.

Yes, we have those rights from birth, but they are easily taken away. Thanks to the sacrifices of many a soldier, we have the ability to express those freedoms. Without those sacrifices, we may still have had the god given right to those freedoms but not the freedoms themselves. It is because of their sacrifices that we have the freedoms themselves, not only the concepts of the freedoms.

[aikoaiko]

48. Honestly it sounds like you agree with derby.

[kdpeters]

71. But so too, through the sacrifices of the ACLU, unions, feminists, and the civil rights movement

...and don't forget us gay folk.

We're the ones fighting on the front lines trying to defend YOUR freedoms because it's OUR freedoms that first come under attack. Next time someone tells me to thank a soldier, I will do so with all due sincerity and gratitude as always and then ask for some gratitude for the radicals, liberals, and rabble-rousers.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

76. Excellent!

The military profession has no inherent superiority, and those who believe so are not "military haters," no matter what the Military Canonization Corps says.

[Zhade]

94. Indeed. We whose rights are being attacked ARE on the front lines.

And WE often do far more than some who just wrongly laud the military for 'giving' us freedom (which it doesn't do).

[flamin lib]

84. Liberties aren't taken away, they are given away. nt

[Bronyraurus]

98. Yeah, but

who made the Declaration of Independence more than just a piece of paper? A shitload of soldiers who backed it up and defeated the British.

Then a shitload of soldiers defended the Emancipation Proclamation.

Then a shitload of them stopped Hitler from conquering Europe and Tojo from conquering Asia, which would've forced the US to cowtow to fascists all over the world.

You can disagree with this adventure in Iraq, but that doesn't mean that soldiers don't create, spread, and protect the rights that we enjoy.

[PLF]

33. Which soldiers, those that killed the indians or those that slaughtered peasants

in Latin America?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

38. ...

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:


God I hate soldier haters. Such a vile breed.

[PLF]

44. figured as much

The idea that we owe our freedom to the ever increasing militarization of society is pretty bankrupt.

[JAbuchan08]

59. The point is not all soldiers are good by virtue of being soldiers

neither is their purpose right, by virtue of it being their purpose. The military is only as good as the use to which it is put. Either soldiers are doing their duty and we don't owe them anything for it, because it is their duty, or we owe our freedoms to them.
If someone else has a greater claim on my freedoms than myself then they're not really mine to begin with.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

79. That's what I got from PLF's post too but, you know...

...if you believe a soldier's shit doesn't smell better than anyone else's, you are a DIRTY COMMIE LIBRUL MILITARY HATING VET-SPITTING HIPPY TRAITOR!!111!11cos(0)1!11!!

[sanskritwarrior]

101. Again cosigned

the more I read your posts the more I think you are one of the 10 most enlightened posters here.

Soldier haters disgust me, but I gotta protect them too.........But thanks for being a voice I understand and one that makes sense to this soldier.

[Thothmes]

116. Which Soldier

The soldiers in Continental Army. The soldiers in Union army

[Arugula Latte]

63. I'm just wondering, if you could outline which U.S. military involvements since WWII

you would put in this category of preserving the freedoms of U.S. citizens and why.

I am not trying to be snarky or put down the military, I am sincerely curious about what people mean exactly when they say this.

[Zhade]

93. Feel free to disagree. You're still wrong.

Our rights are inherent - or don't you know the Constitution?

The military does NOT grant our freedoms, period. I say that as a military brat.

[sanskritwarrior]

100. Cosigned....

I've bled for these things....

[mikehiggins]

128. There has not been a war to protect our rights since 1945 n/t

[Booster]

22. Thanks for putting into eloquent words what most of us feel. This

is going out to everyone I know. Great job.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

23. Adding my voice to the chorus --

Yeah, that is one seriously good piece of writing.

[w8liftinglady]

24. wow-that is beautiful...KandR

[AzDar]

25. Very nice! n/t

[Terri S]

29. Awesome!! Another K&R

:applause:

[derby378]

30. All of you are too kind

By all means, share it with your FReeper neighbors! Why not enjoy some fireworks on Mardi Gras? :evilgrin:

[Esra Star]

31. Very good with a koala bear stamp. Now I hope this soldier knows

what a tyrant is. They are trained to respect the drill sergeant.
Maybe they will need a checklist or something.

[Annces]

34. Very good

Thanks.

[ShortnFiery]

35. I can just envision the right wing nut case sites wrongly accusing us of not respecting troops.

Nothing could be further from the truth. We are trying to grease the wheels of Justice so they may be brought home from these immoral occupations. Yes plural, because we also have no right occupying Afghanistan. We pull our imperial butts out of both countries and WORK to convey a "more balanced" approach to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the terrorists will be less likely to follow us back to the good ole' USA. Why? They don't give a shit about the USA, only their M.E. neighborhood.

[ComerPerro]

47. honestly, though, why should we have to respect the troops that are over in Iraq?

[treestar]

52. This is where most of us let the RW get us stuck

Which is why the OP poem is so good. Right wing nuts use the troops, because they are people, easier to claim to defend than an ideal. So they tell us we are ungrateful to the troops who are defending our freedom, skipping over the fact they are not defending our freedom because our freedom is not threatened.

Also in a real war, all of society is part of it - the troops could do nothing if we didn't provide them with weapons. We are all doing our part, the part of fighting just is limited to certain people. Which proves that we as a nation are not "at war" as we were in WWII, say, where the average citizen felt it and was actually doing things to promote it.

We do now owe our freedom to the soldiers just because they take that role. It's like giving all the credit for a movie to the actors, when the actors would have nothing to act if not for the writers and set designers and costume and make-up, etc.

The RW always tries to avoid ideas and make it about people. We fall into it say when we say we should withdraw from the war only because the troops should not have to do it. We are confused because we are not feeling being "at war" the way a whole country can be, as it would have been for the British in WWII, for example. So we think in terms of withdrawing for the good of the troops, not in terms of "us" stopping the war because "we" are not really threatened.

[ComerPerro]

53. Hell, if the RW wants to make it about people, I'm all for it.

Maybe they should put their money where their mouth is.

You know, start funding the people, not just the MIC and BushCo, and more importantly, start actually doing things to bring about meaningful change in these people's lives. Especially when they come home injured and mutilated and maimed.

But they don't give a fuck. They just use them.

[Arugula Latte]

64. Our freedom is threatened from within.

It's not the Iraqis wiretapping our phones, firing U.S. attorneys for political agendas, and flushing habeus corpus down the drain. It's the Bush administration.

Nicely put, BTW.

[flamin lib]

86. Why respect the troops in Iraq?

Because they do, see, smell and hear things that no reasonable human being would willingly do just because they were asked to. It is people like these that when called to do the just and right thing will go forward without care for personal safety.

It may be argued that the Iraq invasion is many things, but because it was authorized by the Congress and the orders given by a civilian Commander in Chief it is legal. That a soldier will obey a legal order even in the face of personal moral, ethical and humanitarian questoins is what makes them worthy of respect.

Until We the People make it legal for them to lay down their arms they deserve respect.

And no, they didn't give us liberty and they aren't defending our liberty now.

[Zhade]

97. Weeeelllll....no. It wasn't authorized by Congress; they abdicated their responsibility.

The UN did not sanction this aggressive war - and aggressive war is illegal under international, and thus our, law.

[Sadie4629]

36. Well . . .

We ALL "have" those rights, (endowed by our Creator, etc., et., etc.) but they CAN be taken away. If Hitler's goals had been achieved, those rights would have been permanently taken away from millions of people. It is thanks to the Allied soldiers of WWII that that never happened. Just sayin'.

[Horse with no Name]

37. And many or our rights have been taken away

via the Patriot Act. How many soldiers have gone up against this administration to stop that? Just saying...

[Sadie4629]

39. Just a question, and NOT meaning to be argumentative

What rights have YOU personally lost?

[Horse with no Name]

40. I'm not your personal researcher

WE have all lost rights under the Patriot Act.

[BlackVelvet04]

42. Nice try.....

but that's a really old argument from the other side of the fence. If ONE person is held without due process than we all can be. If ONE person is denied the right to a trial we all can be. If ONE person is spied on illegally we all can be. Thus we each have lost the right to be secure in our rights.

[SammyWinstonJack]

46. !

:thumbsup:

[Balbus]

43. Let me interpret the two posts above for you, Sadie.

blah, blah, blah, None, blah, blah, blah.

[Horse with no Name]

45. And let me interpret this one for you

:eyes:

[BlackVelvet04]

50. Kind of hard to tell when things are being done in secret, don't ya think?

Do you know for a fact that your email's aren't being read? Or your telephone calls aren't being tapped? Are you sure?

[Straight Shooter]

73. One Nation Under Surveillance, with loss of liberty and injustice for many.

The key findings in PBS's report:

* The government is intercepting most emails sent domestically.
* AT&T is collecting most emails and sharing them with the government, specifically the NSA (this is backed up by Klein's documents).
* The NSA spy room at AT&T's San Francisco facility is only accessible to the NSA and AT&T employees cleared by the NSA.
* The NSA's interest seems to be in MAE WEST, *the* major hub of American and international internet traffic on the West Coast.
* The device installed in San Francisco is capable of intercepting 10 GIGBYTES of data per second. In layman's terms, that means it could go through all the information in all the books in the Library of Congress in 15 minutes.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/02/20/big-brother-is-watching-you-2/

[Time for change]

55. I agree with your post # 36, but

certainly you can't be serious that we shouldn't be concerned about the way the Bush government has ignored our Constitution and international law and abused the human rights of our prisoners by having them tortured and indefinitely incarcerated without even being charged with crimes.

None of us personally suffered at the hands of Hitler either. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be thankful that he was defeated.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

78. What about "right to a speedy trial," for starters?

Or was the treatment visited upon all those innocents in Gitmo a-ok?

[ieoeja]

80. They broke down my brother's unlocked door.

My brother reported his credit card stolen. Two weeks later while my brother and his wife were working, the police showed up and broke down my brother's front door (apparently not bothering to try the doorknob). They drilled into his gun cabinet ruining it. And generally tore the place apart.

The people they caught with his credit card were known drug dealers. Cops reasoned my brother must be involved with their drug dealing activities and decided to search his place. You might figure a judge would want a little better cause before issuing a warrant. You would be correct. But they didn't need a warrant. Since terrorists use drugs to fund their activities, the police no longer need a warrant to conduct raids related to drugs.

[sanskritwarrior]

102. go up against what?

I swear it's like no one listens........Congress authorized it, until Congress rescinds it, it is legal in the eyes of the military. For us to "go up against the administration or the Congress" is to violate our oath, inject the military into civil political affairs and set a precedent for any military commander that wants to "save the country"..........Why is this so hard for non military members to understand. We (the military) cannot get involved, it would destroy 220+ years of good order and discipline as well as set the stage for some braindead RW general like Boykin to believe he and his troops can interfere in the future...........

[Horse with no Name]

104. Soldiers aren't sworn to Congress OR the President

They are sworn to uphold the rights granted in the Constitution and to protect against all enemies foreign and domestic.
It's going to be hard...but I am not betting the farm that the military won't end up intervening.
Better men will prevail. They have to to save this country.

[sanskritwarrior]

110. I will fight any members of the military

that try and change the govt. GOOD MEN DO NOT PREVAIL when a military gets involved in civil political affairs. It is an affront to the military to ask us to change the govt. This has nothing to do with bush and everything to do with our role in American society.

As for my oath.......here is how it goes.....

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

According to this oath it is not our duty to change the govt. It is treasonous for any military officer to plot against the elected government. We don't have good leaders right now, the PEOPLE and the CONGRESS need to correct it. Not us, not the military, it is not our duty to do such things and it disgusts me when people say they want us to intervene. YES, let's destroy America and its civil traditions and military traditions to save it......... :sarcasm:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

77. Does the OP deny that in any way, shape, or form? -nt

[rgbecker]

85. It was Hitler's SOLDIERS.....

that took away those rights from millions of people. Soldiers represent deadly force and that is all. They could be used for good or bad ends. What if they gave a war and nobody came?

[PassingFair]

95. Hitler had soldiers too, you know....n/t

[BlackVelvet04]

41. Another kick and recommend.....

I'm not free and easy with compliments but you deserve a BRAVO and WELL DONE! Awesome.

[SeattleGirl]

51. Great piece, derby!

Recommended.

[Irishonly]

54. Great Job

Three cheers for you! :toast: :toast: :toast:

I think you should try to publish it. Even though most, if not all, poetry sites on the internet are not real legit, any of them would give you the copy right to the poem-if you don't mind millions of junk e-mails and just buy the book because you will be published. I think you need to research and find a place that will help you. Please think of sending it to "The Nation" and any other place you can think of.

[The Wizard]

56. Rooted in the Declaration of Independence

“We hold these truths to be self evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”

[Ilsa]

57. I. LOVE. IT!.

Thank you for putting this into a wonderful response to those idiot freeper emails that pretend to support troops.

[derby378]

60. Thanks again to everyone for the praise (and the criticisms)

I'm honestly blown away by the response to my musings. Happy to have struck a long-neglected chord in your souls.

:patriot:

[whopis01]

89. The only thing that I would disagree with you on...

... is the part about it is a soldier's duty to obey orders even if they come from a tyrant.

(I realize that this wasn't the point of your musings, and I am not saying this as a criticism of your thoughts... I agree with you completely, but would just like to emphasize this issue)

There are many that push the idea around that soldiers should always be supported and honored. This is not something that should be given freely to them, they should have to earn it like everyone else. There are cases when following orders is not the honorable thing to do. Look at the case of Ehren Watada. He is a soldier that I honor and support. At some point, we must not hold on to blind support for those who are acting only as the muscle of tyrants because they are 'following orders'.

I, for one, do not support those soldiers who are part of these atrocities. We are far beyond the point of 'just following orders' being an excuse. I support those like Watada who have the moral fiber and decency to stand up for what is right.

[KitSileya]

65. What a wonderful poem.

You put words to something many of us have felt, but have not managed to express. In any democratic country, the military is under the leadership of civilians, not the other way around. The military defends the constitution, they do not grant it. Their own power comes from the constitution - without it, they would be vigilantes.

Bravo, derby378. Thanks for sharing.

[Hekate]

66. Most excellently done. Thank you. nt

[Old Smokey]

67. greatness

[Mad_Dem_X]

68. Excellent! n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. When I was a soldier (marine) the only thing I gave the civilians was envy.

Which was true of most of my (non-lifer) comrades. All most of us wanted to do was to get the hell out and be civilians again.

[Ron Green]

70. Unfortunately, the "all volunteer" military has changed this situation somewhat.

When I served, most of my units were about half and half, enlistees and draftees. After a period of getting to know each other, nobody used his "US" status against an "RA" or vice versa. We all fought together, but we were real citizen soldiers rather than the near-mercenaries who represent us and kill for us today.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

74. Well, we were all "volunteers" and still wanted out.

I find the idea that the GI's are all marching around thinking about preserving freedom, democracy, and all the usual flag waving nonsense is laughable.

When I was in, we thought about women, booze, women, getting out of work, women, hating the officers, women, and, of course women.

In 4 years, I can't recall one conversation by the enlisted cannon fodder about democracy, freedom, defending liberty, or any of the tripe that was supposed to make us fight. What made us willing to fight was the very justified fear of Marine Brigs.

[Ron Green]

82. Do you think that's the case today? That most soldiers just want out and to be

civilians again? I wonder if they signed up thinking one thing and discovered another thing entirely when they saw action. I wonder if they cheer the president, when he comes to speak at their facility, out of support for him or out of fear they'll be punished if they don't.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

83. I may be wrong, but I think it's mostly peer pressure.

And, despite the reality of military life (mostly boring, degrading, and ridiculous) they like to think of themselves as "heroes" and the other balderdash told them by the bosses. And, there's a lot of faux machismo involved in being a group of adolescents all proclaiming how tough they are.

When I was in, (early '60s) most of my comrades were from poor, disadvantaged, backgrounds, facing the draft, and in need of a job. We joined for the princely sum of $79 a month and "3hots and a cot". Many bought the sales pitch for insecure adolescents of "The Marine Corps Builds Men". For most of us, the reality that we were cannon fodder prime for "sacrifice" set in pretty early. And, once that set in, all we wanted was out of "The Crotch" or "The Suck". There were, of course, those that were afraid of civilian life and preferred the security of having a full-time job and a boss/nanny. "Lifers" was the contemptuous moniker bestowed on them.

I suspect the same is true of todays "All-volunteer" military, though the monetary allurements are better and the general living conditions are much better.

[derby378]

90. Your comments about military life are rather timely

First of all, thanks to you and all other DU vets for your service.

I just saw Jarhead again the other night, which was based on Anthony Swafford's own experience in the Marines during the Gulf War. Lots of emphasis on the boredom and stagnation of life on the front lines, sitting around and waiting for something to happen while your own mind baked in the Kuwaiti desert. The mind games inflicted upon oneself and one's comrades were especially jarring.

[sanskritwarrior]

103. Who u calling a near mercenary

bub?

[Ron Green]

106. Maybe someone who gets a huge reenlistment bonus,

or who gets out and goes back to Iraq working for Blackwater or KBR, or who thinks more about how much money he's making rather than if he's doing the right thing.

I know there must be a few soldiers who could do better financially "back in the world," but not like there were in '66 to '69, when I was in.

[sanskritwarrior]

109. I reenlisted because I wanted to.

I was in Iraq and it was tax free......Again how does this make me or anyone else who reenlisted in country a mercenary.......You're walking a fine line here bub.......

[Ron Green]

113. I think there ought to be a draft, and I think pay ought to be minimal for the first hitch.

Then if you want to make a career of it, fine. It should pay a living wage for career soldiers. But an army without citizen soldiers is not the army I want representing my country. We don't need any more "gung-ho," and we don't need to have to run expensive, macho advertising campaigns to fight bullshit wars.

I'm not walking any kind of line, Bub, I'm a disabled vet myself and I have a right to my opinion.

[sanskritwarrior]

114. Never said you had no right to an opinion

calling the all volunteer military mercenaries is likely to get this thread pulled......That's what I meant.

And no thank you a draft army is the last thing this country needs. We are functional enough with people that want to be there. The last thing I want is to babysit 33 young men that don't want to be there. At least with the all volunteer military a lot of them volunteered and I feel I can trust them......

[Caretha]

115. sanskritwarrior, are you a Moderator for the forum now?

Threatening people with having a very popular thread pulled, because someone has a differing opinion than yours of what is happening in today's military is totally uncalled for.

Threats disgust me and I don't believe they belong on DU or should be allowed to stand. It seems to me that is a very bad precedent and defeats what DU stands for.....on the other hand, I will say that you certainly have made the OP's point by being one soldier who thinks not only should he be honored for giving :eyes: American citizens their right to free speech, but he also will be the interpreter of what that free speech can consist of.

I also wanted to point out that your last sentence of your post is kinda weird. You said:

"At least with the all volunteer military a lot of them volunteered and I feel I can trust them......"

Wouldn't all of the "all vounteer military" be volunteers, not just "a lot of them"?

[sanskritwarrior]

121. LOL

you are way out of your element and very deranged. I'm not threatening anyone. Threads get pulled by the real moderators when someone disparages the military. Calling us mercenaries is walking a fine line. That's what I meant. Perhaps you should review the rules for posting here.

What DU stands for is American values, support of the military is one of those vaues. I'm one soldier who will defend the persons right to say what they want, however I will warn them when they are crossing a line that can get a thread pulled. In the AVA there are still a few who faced either "jail time" or the military, so no not every single one of us has volunteered.

Again reread what he said, what I said and compare it to the rules and then get back to me and say I am threatening someone.......I'm not. I'll be here waiting for an apology.

[derby378]

123. I certainly didn't see anything threatening

Everyone on DU gets a chance to speak up; in fact, I insist that everyone speak up. We've got at least 100,000 members now - surely each of them has something they can contribute to the debates on these forums?

[Ron Green]

119. "I feel I can trust them..."

I'm much more likely to trust soldiers who are doing their duty rather than those who made a career choice to carry lethal weapons.

[sanskritwarrior]

122. So are you now saying that

all volunteer military members are not doing their duty? Are career military members not doing their duty? Or are only draftees who do not wish on most occasions to be there the only ones capable of doing their duty? Your answers get stranger and stranger.

[Ron Green]

124. I'll try to make it very simple for you:

My view is that any force assembled to kill other people in the name of a government ought to be composed substantially of ordinary citizens of that government and not solely of hired soldiers. "Doing their duty" means they don't really want to be there, don't really want to be killing people, but they do it because they were called up to do it. It promotes a healthy tension and dialog within the ranks about what the f*** our leaders are doing in making war where there should be no war.

You are welcome to your opinion that the "all-volunteer" military is better, but having served with both enlistees and draftees, I strongly disagree with you.

Got it?

[sanskritwarrior]

127. I'm still waiting for your answer

Can AVA people do their duty with honor, or is that solely reserved for draftees?

[Ron Green]

130. Of course they can. I have no doubt that many of today's US military are

honorable and honest people, brave in the execution of their mission. I just wish they could share their time off with GI's with a totally different perspective; GI's who represent a true cross section of American society, and who don't buy into the "hooah!" mentality of a hired force.

By this time in Vietnam, "FTA" was growing and those of us in uniform were starting to wake up.

[DinahMoeHum]

72. That's a great rebuttal for the next time some freeper asshole

quotes you this:

IT IS THE SOLDIER
“It is the soldier, not the reporter,
Who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet,
Who has given us the freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier,
Who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.”

(Author Unknown)


Thanks! Believe me, I plan to use your prose in rebuttal!!!

:patriot:

[derby378]

91. Bingo!

In fact, it was that very poem you just printed that inspired me to write my own and share it with you.

[Lex]

96. Exactly!! The solider doesn't "allow" me to do anything

unless this is a militia state now.

The soldier defends the rights already in place by the Creator or by the Constitution.

"Allow" I don't think so.

[ClayZ]

81. Standing Ovation! BRAVO! K & R

:applause:

[flamin lib]

87. Send this to KO. nt

[WildEyedLiberal]

88. Send that to a poetry anthology

That is way too good to not end up published under your real name. Seriously.

[Zhade]

92. DAMN STRAIGHT.

NT!

[Booster]

99. I sent this to everyone on my list and in the subject line I put

"this needed to be said". I even sent it to my Marine nephew but haven't talked to him about it yet. I think he'll not only understand, I think he'll agree with it.

[Supersedeas]

105. well done -- a patriotic salute to you

[Karenina]

108. Kick!

[proud2BlibKansan]

111. Wow Derby that is awesome!

Way to go!!

:yourock:

[derby378]

117. Aw, shucks...

Thank you. :hug:

[AngryOldDem]

112. Now THAT is truly excellent. n/t

[onecent]

118. I just sent this on to my friends. This is wonderful. Please continue

writing, you have a wonderful gift.

[derby378]

120. Y'know, the CUckoos are now jumping all over this...

One of them said he'd like to slap me so hard that he'd leave fingerprints on my teeth.

Wassamatta, knave? I speak truth to power about how soldiers defend freedom instead of granting it, and you want to attack me for exercising my rights? Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

[Lex]

131. Those idiots crave a police state where soldiers

give permission or allow people to do this or that, I suppose.

[Uncle Joe]

125. Thanks for the thread derby

Kicked and recommended

[Madspirit]

126. This is really good

Thank-you. I also appreciated the line:

"But a soldier's duty is to obey orders,
Even those of a tyrant."

So true, so true. There is nothing inherently noble about being a soldier. Sometimes they fight for noble beliefs but sometimes they surely do not.
Lee

[proud patriot]

129. Thank You for this

:patriot: