Do you expect the primary vote to be rigged?

[Marr]

It seems to me that the GOP would very much like to choose their opposition in the coming election, and the Democratic Party establishment would, I think, be an ally in their choice.

I'm not familiar with the actual election organization in the primaries. Are the same officials and machines in place for the primaries that are in place for the presidential elections?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Pretty damn tough to rig a caucus.

[ruggerson]

5. They will bring in mutant robots

who will, for all intents and purposes, be indistinguishable from the average Iowa caucusgoer.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

6. You ever seen a caucus?

It's a cat herd. Mutant robots would be noticed immediately.

[SteppingRazor]

42. You ever seen an Iowan?

I think he mutant robots would go entirely unnoticed.

:popcorn:

[frazzled]

13. Actually not: we never know what the popular vote (body count) is in Iowa

At least in the Democratic caucuses. The number of bodies for each candidate (after all the switching for the fifteen-percenters is done) is sent to the state Democratic Party headquarters, where it is put under lock and key. The media never knows or reports those numbers. We never know them. What is reported is the number of delegates assigned to each of the candidates in each of the precincts--based on a weighted formula that is adjusted for the amount of Democratic voter turnout during the last two general elections in that precinct.

It seems to me, there's a lot of room for confusion and hanky panky. Even if not, it is certainly possible that the candidate who got the most popular 'votes' in Iowa may not get the highest percentage of delegates. Those latter percentages are the ones we hear and which are assigned to the "winner," "runner up," etc.

[Kucinich4America]

16. Tell that to Tom Vilsack

He got rewarded with a cushy DLC job for a reason.

[mitchtv]

2. Not in NH

certain counties in CA however, SD, Orange ,Riverside and SBernadino. The republics have their hands all over these registrars

[ColbertWatcher]

3. Regardless how they turn out...

...the results will be skewed, that's for sure.

[tom_paine]

4. I am sorry to say that without significant improvements and a return of verified inspections

of machines, I can no longer trust any outcome in an American election.

It is simply too easy now for the Bushies, and that is just the shit they do, like voter caging and minority intimidation, that we can see and PROVE.

1) Election machinery needs to be de-privatized.

2) Inspections of voting machines must be performed by designated government and law enforcement agencies, at least as often and as vigorously as a $5 poker slots machine.

3) Election Day should be a National Holiday.

For starters. 1) and 2) would go a long way towards restoring my belief in the American Voting System.

[zeemike]

8. I am with you on all of that.

But I would add that in lew of election day being made a holiday it could be made to be 48 hours long like on Sat and Sunday.

[bemildred]

7. I expect that it will be attempted. With what success I cannot say. nt

[gowexler]

9. I expect it- you think they would leave something that important up to the American people?

A regular primary would be just as easy as the general so why not?

A caucus can be rigged by the leaders and dirty tricks like taking the groups into other rooms to do the counting. Sometimes they will not allow a Kucinich supporter to speak for the candidate. I have had a caucus filled up with useless speeches for local candidates who wanted to practice, and then oops now there's no time to give a speech for your candidate. As the Kucinich supporters were trying to discuss the issues with Kerry supporters, they suddenly took them into the other room to count them and would not let us talk to them.

[kitty44]

10. Yes. n/t

[Just-plain-Kathy]

11. I think the powers-that-be who put Bush in office TWICE will not give up...

...their power so easily.

Following the coup where corporates took over our country, we will only have an illusion of democracy.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Depends where, some places are easier to rig than others

but where I grew up that was a truism.... elections were always rigged and we still voted

These days I expect them to be rigged... and I will still vote.

:-)

Things don't change huh?

[shadowknows69]

14. Yeah, kind of, unfortunately

I think Iowa might tell that tale. I really don't think Hillary is going to win it, or wouldn't win it. We shall see. If she wins Iowa and NH by a landslide I'll believe something is up because despite the media polls I really think it's still anyone's race.

[Kucinich4America]

15. Funny how the California primary was moved up, isn't it?

What percentage of that state uses electro-fraud machines?

[Freddie Stubbs]

18. Funny how most states have moved up their primaries

[Kucinich4America]

22. Yes, but most states don't have a deciding number of votes.

in and of themselves to make or break an election. Which gives the early advantage to the candidate with the most money. Who also happens to be the one backed by the corporations who love the machines, and the DLC who pretends there is nothing wrong with them.

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. New York and Illinios have more combined

They are having their primaries on the same day as California, as are eight other states:

http://www.fvap.gov/pubs/vag/appendix_i.pdf

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Secretary Bowen decertified them

last check

[PassingFair]

17. I don't even have to ASK that question...

I'm in MICHIGAN.

The Gov. and our Congressional groups have
rigged it for Clinton.

JUGGERNAUT!

:mad:

[Freddie Stubbs]

20. How specifically did they rig it for Clinton?

:shrug:

[PassingFair]

21. Early primary.

Went against party rules.

Knowing that Obama, Edwards, Biden had
signed a pledge to abide by the rules
and NOT campaign or be on the Michigan
ballot.

Pushed through via legislation that the
public did NOT get a vote on.

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. But Dennis Kucinich will be on the ballot with her

I'm sure he will give her a run for her money, won't he?

[PassingFair]

29. He actually TRIED to get OFF of the ballot and Michigan

wouldn't LET him.
He hadn't been available to physically sign the
pledge and Michigan refused to let him off the
ballot. They wanted to make the whole thing
look more like a "fair" vote by having a non-DLC
candidate on the ticket.

Clinton, Dodd, Kucinich and that front-runner, Gravel
are the only names that appear on the ballot.

We have deliberately been denied our candidates.

The electorate is angry and we are NOT fooled.

[Freddie Stubbs]

33. Kucinich did sign the paperwork to withdraw:

http://www.iowaindependent.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1253

But apparently his staff was not competent enough to get it notarized.

[PassingFair]

35. The point is he wanted off the ballot.

And Michigan wouldn't LET him.

By the way, Clinton and Dodd SIGNED THIS:

Text of Pledge Letter

WHEREAS, over a year ago, the Democratic National Committee established a 2008 nominating calendar;

WHEREAS, this calendar honors the racial, ethnic, economic and geographic diversity of our party and our country;

WHEREAS, the DNC also honored the traditional role of retail politics early in the nominating process, to ensure that money alone will not determine our presidential nominee;

WHEREAS, it is the desire of Presidential campaigns, the DNC, the states and the American people to bring finality, predictability and common sense to the nominating calendar.

THEREFORE, I , Democratic Candidate for President, pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any state which schedules a presidential election primary or caucus before Feb. 5, 2008, except for the states of Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina, as "campaigning" is defined by the rules and regulations of the DNC. It does not include activities specifically related to raising campaign resources such as fundraising events or the hiring of fundraising staff.




...and then put their names on the ballot anyway.

[Freddie Stubbs]

36. No, the SOS put their names on the ballot

And the candidates are allowed to ask for their names to be removed.

[PassingFair]

39. The candidates, including Clinton and Dodd, PLEDGED to

not participate in the primary if it violated party
rules.

Then Clinton and Dodd
went ahead with it anyway.

Just the kind of representatives we want.

[Freddie Stubbs]

44. They pledged to not campaign or participate in the primary

What action have they taken to campaign or participate in MI's primary?

[PassingFair]

46. Spoken like a true Clintonian.

Biden, Edwards, Richardson, and Obama had their
names removed from the ballot for WHAT, their HEALTH?

Kucinich tried to have his name removed because he
WHAT, HATES MICHIGAN?

Because they PLEDGED to NOT PARTICIPATE in the PRIMARY.

Duh!

[Freddie Stubbs]

49. They did so because they were so freighted of possibly brusing the delecate egos

of those who believe that their state has a sacred right to hold their primary or caucus before other states.

You have yet to point out any actions Senator Clinton or her campaign have taken which would have violated this pledge.

[PassingFair]

50. Guess it depends on what your definition of the word "pledge"

is or "is" is if you will.

The other candidates seem to "get" it.

[Freddie Stubbs]

51. Has Senator Harkin or anyone else who asked the candidates to sign the pledge said anything

to lead anyone to believe that they though that Senator Clinton was breaking the pledge by not having her name removed from the ballot in MI?

[PassingFair]

52. Like Harkin would publicly upset Clintons applecart!

What has that got to do with her and Dodd disregarding their
agreement?

[Freddie Stubbs]

53. YOU say that she is disregarding the agreement. I have yet to hear anyone who

asked for that agreement to state that they believe that she has done so. I would consider them a much more credible source.

[PassingFair]

55. Come to Michigan and listen to the ELECTORATE.

Then explain to me why the other candidates took
the trouble to withdraw from the ballot so that
they could HONOR their pledge.

Oh yeah, they must HATE MICHIGAN.

That's what John Cherry implied at our last democratic meeting.

:eyes:

[Freddie Stubbs]

56. Is the MI electorate angry at Senator Clinton?

:shrug:

[PassingFair]

57. Yes.

AND Gov. Granholm and Senator Levin.
Our county executive meetings were FILLED with
angry voters. In the cross-county meetings I attended
there was not a SINGLE person in agreement with the
early primary push. NOT.A.ONE.

I hope the scheme backfires.

But frankly, the PUBLIC knows very little
about the primary and will probably not
turn out to vote at all.

And Clinton is the popular brand name for those
who will.

So it will probably show a "victory" for the
Clinton camp in Michigan.

Just as planned.

[Freddie Stubbs]

60. The I guess she she doesnt stand much of a chance in the primary against Kucinich and Gravel, right?

:shrug:

[PassingFair]

61. That's the whole IDEA, isn't it, Freddie?

:shrug:

How upright!

[PassingFair]

62. That's the whole IDEA, isn't it, Freddie?

:shrug:

How honest and upright!

[ButterflyBlood]

40. But Michigan has zero delegates

Making whoever wins there as relevant as who wins a message board poll on this site.

[PassingFair]

47. The DLCers in Michigan are "betting their pinks" that their

delegation will be seated in Colorado anyway.

[Whisp]

71. PassingFair, a summary please?

I don't know anything about this sleight of hand pledge thing.

[gowexler]

19. K&R

I have to say this is THE most important issue of the day.

With all of the fighting for candidates in the primary, we still haven't fixed our election system so what's the point? We will get the candidate 'they' want.

[DaLittle Kitty]

23. TouchScreens Remain in Place for Pres Primary in Fl. Nuff Said!

This is a PR vote in Florida's Presidential Primary... So need to get out there, however vote rigging has been demonstrated to be most prevalent when touchscreen or DRE (Direct Recording Electronic) Voting Apparatus is in use. So much for Florida... Optical Scan is to be in place for the General however w/o random audits you have little more than trust to go on there... A bit better but not truly beyond the likes of the Bushies. Oh watch out for infrared ports and people w/ palm pilots too? :nuke:

[ButterflyBlood]

41. But who cares about Florida?

With zero delegates it does not matter.

[Cleita]

24. Yes, deep down I do, however, without any

tangible proof, it's just a theory or an opinion.

[seriousstan]

26. As always, only if my candidate doesn't win. Then the polls tell the truth.

If my candidate wins the polls failed to account for the last minute ground swell of popular support.

[L. Coyote]

30. No, I just expect someone to say it is.

There is a lot to be gained by Rs from making people think their vote doesn't count.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

31. no. nt

[slackmaster]

32. No, but I expect a plethora of tinfoil hat threads on DU suggesting that it was

:tinfoilhat:

[ButterflyBlood]

43. Ditto

I love how Diebold gets blamed for every single election result we don't like whether Diebold was actually used in it or not.

[Fight Power]

72. there is reason to believe

if they can steal it they will.

[Individualist]

34. Yes

DLC is as corrupt as the neocons.

[helderheid]

37. Yes, but not the caucus for obvious reasons.

[leftofthedial]

38. EVERYTHING about America is rigged

The corporations will win, whether through election fraud or through marginalization of the candidates who pose a threat to the oligarchy

[Junkdrawer]

45. I'm not a citizen...But I'm played as one on TeeVee...

Virtual Reality....

[siri2k]

48. Yes, as sure as night follows day...

n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

54. YES. n/t

[blues90]

58. what isn't rigged , everything is a lie and rigged no matter what it is .

[gowexler]

59. We can't just watch this happen!

We need to FIGHT!!

[Junkdrawer]

63. I've only suspected that the 2008 primary would be rigged for the last 4 years....

Before that, I really didn't think about it much...

[cascadiance]

64. The timing of it already is rigged to disenfranchise many college students...

Since the newer moved up date of the Iowa caucus is overlapping the universities' holiday break time. So how will college students participate in as many numbers in a caucus as they might have done in the past. So in effect they've been "caged" out of the process by doing having the election on the 3rd.

And of course splitting the primaries up in to earlier presidential primaries and later primaries for other offices in effect is another form of rigging to prevent participation of the working people who have a harder time making time for an election to vote. Their participation will be affected a lot moreso than retired and the well off.

[Stevepol]

65. Bev Harris has investigated this problem & it's up on the BBV site.

Here are some snippets from her analysis:

Black Box Voting has been raising questions and seeking answers. We've been mailing letters to our Iowa constituents, blogging, and distributing questions and concerns through the voting rights circuitry.

Here's what we've learned so far, revealing some good news and citizen action still needed to prod one of the parties into publicly accounting for its results.

Because caucus procedures for each party differ, will report on them separately.

NO VOTING MACHINES

It's official:

Democratic Party procedures - Haven't and won't use any voting machines in the caucuses.

Republican Party procedures - They used voting machines in the Republican straw poll in August, but will not use the machines in the January caucus.

snip..... There's a good deal more at the site, not all of it as reassuring as the above. As she points out later on in the article, despite the protestations of transparency, the devil is in the details and the "chain of custody" can "go bonkers," along with other things too evidently.

Link: http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

[TripleD]

66. The Des Moines alresdy rigged it

by arbitrarily excluding Kucinich from the Iowa debates and misleading their readers into thinking he declined an invitation to attend:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007711150401

[Peace 2008]

67. there are many more dirty tricks as well

[Whisp]

70. yep, that was going to be my 2 cents worth. It's already been done. nt

[Peace 2008]

68. Hacking Democracy pt9

Hacking Democracy pt9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J36Jfkxd1vA

[Festivito]

69. Not so much that it could not be properly won. (Unlikely though)

They've already determined for us that a girl, a black man, and a man of effeminate hair are the front runners.

Nice guys don't always finish last, they just need to run their ass off in order to make third place. -From the FONZ.

But, also, I'd think it not worth the money it would take for the RW to win this time. This time. They'll be back.