The richer you are, the more easily you suffer

[KurtNYC]

At least according to the news media...

TV journalists seem determined to convince us that the rich suffer more often and more easily than the rest of us. I'll show you what I mean. On Sunday, some rich people went hiking on Mt. Hood. Their lives are apparently so devoid of problems that they are bored and go out and create problems for themselves. Problems they generally have control over like how high up a mountain one climbs, what time of year one chooses to do so, how many tracking devices and cell phones to take with you, and how many $500 sleeping bags to carry. These rich people slid down one side of the mountain, turned on their rescue beacons, had a little food, got into their fancy sleeping bags and went to sleep. They took turns having a dog provide extra warmth for them. In the morning they were picked up by taxpayer-funded rescue crews (read: low/middle income people) who have to put their own life and limb at risk whenever rich people choose to "defy death" by getting out of their Range Rovers. To many of us this may not seem like a big deal but I just checked with CNN and NBC and they say these people are inspiring heroes who endured incredible hardship (for 8 hours). Further "they were brave" and their dog is not a hostage to their folly but rather is also a hero and "was key to their survival."

Compare that to how little poor people suffer, according to news reports, under similar circumstances. In NYC over 3,000 people spent the last 3 frigid weeks sleeping in refrigerator boxes on the streets, not for 8 hours but 24/7. None of them will be making the rounds of the morning talk shows to talk about how they "feel fully alive now that they have cheated death." In fact, according to the news, these people "refuse to go to shelters." (If the homeless would only activate their rescue beacons...)

But wait.. when you add fame to wealth it is even easier to experience suffering! This is, apparently, like the psychological version of the hemophilia which legendarily runs in Royal families. And while the slightest cut can bleed profusely and may even prove lethal among the idlely famous Old-Money types, a haircut can be major crisis for some of the rich and famous. Take for instance poor Brittany Spears--she "did not have a childhood" ! Yes, incredible isn't it?! Doesn't seem possible. In fact it seems more possible that she never had an adulthood but who am I to argue with the fine professional journalists on our cable news stations. Brittany was apparently born with all the maturity and problems that usually only confront adults. Perhaps at the age of 5 she was enduring parenthood, house payments, career decisions and the like. By age 10 she was felt a deep sense of ennui as she confronted her own mortality and dealt with the deeply personal spiritual questions around this. All that maturity and responsibility apparently eclipsed her childhood.. how do we know this? Because she cut her hair of course. Matt Lauer just expressed anxiety about "which celebrity will melt down next?"

Perhaps we should station rescue teams near hair salons. If a celeb shows up, counsel them. Try and talk them out of it. Rush them to the nearest Chuckie Cheese and get their belated childhood going. Surely they have acted like responsible adults long enough and deserve our sympathy and concern.

Or not.

[Deja Q]

1. Well, the media should relieve the rich of their 'pain', then.

Reverse psychology can be an effective manipulative tool to counter their manipulation. :evilgrin:

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. They're also more apt to inflict more pain on others.

How do you think they got rich?

[The_Casual_Observer]

3. Ever see how when a CEO gets his ass kicked out of some company

he winds up being a CEO of another one right away? Those bastards don't have to start out at the bottom again like everybody else.

I don't shed any tears when those poor unfortunates die on Mt. Everest either. I could fucking care less.

[redqueen]

4. Ugh...

I've actually heard people tell me that... people from wealthy families, who mostly grew up in wealthy neighborhoods.

These people don't have to deal with the same day-to-day troubles as the rest of us hoi polloi, so for them any minor problem seems to them to be a very grave situation.

[kestrel91316]

19. Um, what on earth makes you think these, or any other people who

actually get their feet dirty hiking around and climbing, are any different than you or me?? When I used to climb, the sport seemed filled with middle-class working people with a tendency to be dedicated environmentalists.

Yeah!!!!! LETS HATE THEM!!!!!!!!!!

[redqueen]

21. Maybe you ought to read my post again...

I didn't mention middle class or working people in mine.

Perhaps you responded to the wrong one?

[kestrel91316]

39. Nope. You just presumed these climbers were filthy rich wastrels

and dilettantes.

[redqueen]

55. Nope. I just related an anecdote.

What you inferred from my post was not implied in it.

[roguevalley]

105. personally, I don't care how much money they have. I will never

forget some climbers getting stuck on Hood when I was a kid and a helicopter crashed that was going to get them, orphaning a bunch of kids and making a few more widows. A pox on all their houses.

[BootinUp]

172. replied to wrong post.

[roguevalley]

183. whoopsie, Jim. sorry. :)

[lukasahero]

5. Can you point me to a news article that identifies the financial status

of the hikers?

[ruiner4u]

15. Exactly...

It seems we went though this a few months ago when climbers were lost on a mountain <cant remember the name>

some of the comments before were just as insane as some of the comments now...


Oh yeah, I like to go hiking/snowshoeing in the rockies... and I am in no means wealthy... So can we finally end the 'rich people do stupid things on mountains so why should we care' memo? it was old last time...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. They were school teachers.

I for one am sick of all these school teachers lording over me with their fancy sleeping bags and their lambourghinis and their fancy schmancy European purebred warmer dogs.

[Caoimhe]

17. I doubt that will be forthcoming

from the news reports I've seen (and I live in Oregon) most of the climbers were teachers. People climb mountains. So what? You are safer climbing a mountain than getting in your car and driving across town to the market. I don't get the vitriol lobbed at these folks. In fact, it sounds like they did all the right things, having sleeping bags & pads, MLU (Mountain Locator Units) and charged cell phones. They weren't exactly daredevils like the last guys were, that paid so dearly for it. They also didn't send one person out to find help. They stayed where they were. That's the number one rule.

I used to do volunteer search and rescue. Pretty much did our work using donations.

Why this story can't be simply a good news item is beyond me.

[Kagemusha]

6. Um, being stranded on a mountain is a life threatening situation.

That it is not the only life threatening situation on Earth does not make it not a life threatening situation...

And I oppose leaving people to die just because they have more money than I do. Sorry if this offends you.

[KurtNYC]

12. They went up there

Jumping motorcycles over 40 buses is a life threatening situation too but people don't get into these situations by accident. They do it by their own choice. These guys camped out the night before at an even higher altitude, they never lost cell phone contact and they had beacons and a warm dog.

Never said they shouldn't be retrieved -- I just find it annoying that the media seems to claim that their actions are noble, important, etc.

[qwlauren35]

13. I think you're missing it.

These people willingly took a risk, because that was part of the adventure they were seeking.

And then, because they decided to take this risk, someone had to go rescue them.

Think of it this way... people who are very rich, who take UNNECESSARY RISKS should have "risk insurance". And any time some government-funded group, such as the National Guard, or forest rangers, has to rescue them, that insurance should pay out to that organization.

Or, they should be forced to hire a stand-by rescue team.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But that's not really how it works.

I like hiking. And I love the mountains. But choosing to go camping in winter is a luxury. I guess it's like Mutual of Omaha's "flight insurance" policies.

Forest rangers, in my mind, have enough to do in terms of managing forest fires, and maintaining a habitat that has natural dangers. I don't mind rescuing people who are doing something "normal".

But perhaps there needs to be a point at which public parks are closed to the public, because the risk of disaster and cost of rescue are too high. I think that's why most parks are closed at night. I think some parks should be closed when the temperature is over 110F, or under 10F.

[Kagemusha]

14. If governments want to require risk insurance etc

they are quite free to legislate it.

[kestrel91316]

23. Thank you. And I believe they do up on Denali.

[Kagemusha]

42. Well my point is the govt chooses to be permissive

to promote tourism and what not. Even to the point of allowing people to make decisions I might call stupid in hindsight. Or at least, borderline risky. And beyond that some people just get unlucky where most of the time they'd get away with the risks fine. We don't hear about all the climbers who DON'T get stranded, after all.

[kestrel91316]

22. You like hiking. Well, then, there's the proof that you're just ONE MORE

SPOILED RICH PERSON!!!!!

You better get insurance for the next time you hit the trail. Don't expect a group of volunteers in a local S&R group to come get YOU for free if you trip and break an ankle. You can just crawl home.

[Mojorabbit]

28. I can't see why people want a risk free life

If no one took risks in research, exploration, you name it... we would not have half the technological advances or knowledge of the world that we have. What is so great about a safe- no -risk existance? If one wants a boring safe and secure life all power to them. If one wants a bit of excitement testing their physical or intellectual limits, I say more power to them too. Whatever floats your boat.

[treestar]

43. For recreation it isn't justified though

These individuals do not contribute that much to society by taking these risks. Mostly, they just cost us.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. Don't the sedentary people cost us more...

Sitting around on the computer all day whining about mountain climbers probably contributes to deep vein thrombosis and diabeetus?

Seems like they're a burden on society. God knows they don't contribute much.

[treestar]

49. No. They don't need to be rescued at great cost.

They end up responsible for the negatives all by themselves.

Also most contributions come from someone in a lab, or nowadays, sitting at a computer.

But for recreational purposes a sensible person would not risk their life. That takes an attitude toward life that is essentially negative - it is just not enough as it is.

An ordinary hike is one thing. Going way up in order to "push the envelope" and "live hard" is another. All the poor people the OP is talking about don't have that luxury. They get to live "on the edge" without going out of their way to do it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. What cost?

The climbers already paid for their rescue.

Whereas the couch potatoes cost Americans millions with health care bills because they never got up and went outside.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. You sure bout that?

have you seen the morbidity statistics for diabetes?

How about heart disease?

They don't cost us anything, you sure you want to stand on THAT ridicolous statement?

[Caoimhe]

54. Mountain climbers/hikers aren't the ones with

the high blood pressure and cholesterol. They aren't the ones with children who never detach from the television set. And they aren't the ones chain smoking and developing cancer. One needs good lungs to see good views. I come from Central Oregon, land of outdoor recreation. I applaud people getting outside and enjoying nature (and of course taking reasonable precautions.)

[girl gone mad]

178. Of course, because there is no..

middle ground between spoiled thrill-seekers and fat ass shut-ins.

:sarcasm:

[theboss]

103. So....I shouldn't go SCUBA diving because you said so

Thanks, mom.

[Mojorabbit]

137. That may be your world view

but it obviously is not theirs. Some people go for the gusto in living. I applaud it.

[CTyankee]

127. I always buy trip insurance when I go to Europe, in case I have a

medical emergency for myself or a family member. It protects not only my investiment of several thousand dollars in the trip but also to take care of my medical needs abroad and early passage back home.

[bobbolink]

190. Do you "oppose leaving people to die" on the streets?

Would you be willing to do some calling and writing about the budget proposal, so that more people won't be left homeless with the assisted housing funds wiped out?

Having nearly died myself on the streets just a few months ago, I would appreciate your help on this.

[Caoimhe]

198. A person in need

is a person indeed. I have skills to help out someone lost in the 500,000 acres of BLM land nearby. Would you rather I not? Cuz if you get stuck out there, you deserve to die??? cuz' you are RICH? I am so glad that the people I've worked and served with didn't tell me I couldn't give CPR to a child in front of me because a child in another part of the world was dying.

[Benhurst]

7. Poor Matt Lauer. He may be next himself. I wonder if they will

release the video of MATT LAUER: PRETTY BOY GONE BALD.

[Dora]

8. I feel a song coming on.....

Sensitivity, sensitivity,
I'm just loaded with that.
In this one word is the epitome
of the aristocrat.

Sensitive soul and sensitive stomach,
sensitive hands and feet.
This is the blessing, also the curse,
of being the true elite.

Common people don't know what exquisite agony
is suffered by gentle people like me....

[Felinity]

200. Hey I was in that play!

MANY years ago. (Once Upon a Mattress)

Here's a little newer ditty:

The Smell of Money Todd Rundgren

. . .

The smell of money is all about me
I just can't rid myself
Of it's overpowering bouquet
My inner beauty cursed with obscurity
By a scent that can't be washed away

I don't know who you think I am
But if I'm who I think I am
Then there's no cranny I've examined
Taints the air where ere I am
But don't say you haven't noticed

The smell of money wafts all about me
It neutralizes any other odors I convey
Best friends won't tell me
They know I'm suffering
With a scent that can't be washed away

The stench of money
Is reeking off of me
A mix of cheap cologne
Weasel pheromone and rotted grave
Thank dad and mommy
I'm filthy, stinking rich
So I can say to you "Piss off"
I bathe, I bathe

[demnan]

9. What is it with these hikers?

You must be right. Their lives must be so devoid of problems that they have to create some and risk their lives doing this stuff. On the other hand everytime there is a real cold snap street people just die out there of hyperthermia. People without heating oil who haven't contacted Joe Kennedy shiver in unheated apartments. All the while tax money is spent to bring back these bozos who fancied a walk in the wilderness in the middle of winter.

These idiots should sign forms before they're allowed in these parks saying that they need to reimburse any rescue attempts on their behalf.

[sinkingfeeling]

44. Volunteer rescue groups do not use taxpayer money.

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. Lord if I got paid for every

response I went on for ten years!!!!!!!!!!!!


Oh wait, I did this as a volunteer, oh silly me!

;-)

[Caoimhe]

129. SAR is a very rewarding "hobby"

I did it for a few years. Once helped pack an elderly woman 6 miles out of a canyon on a deer trail in a scoop stretcher. She had had knee surgery two weeks prior, and felt like going for a hike with her friends. Sure we snickered and bitched about her, but we VOLUNTEERED to do the job, we trained to do it and it was actually fun. If you don't ever experience anything, you haven't really lived, imho.

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. Snicker... having had knee surgery myself

all I can say is OUCH

My favorite one, among many, were some Boy Scouts who ahem got lost

We ended up trecking all night in the back desert until we found them... oh bout 04:00 hours.

The part that was funny is... this happened south of the border, where I did this... and these kids were American

We started IVs since they were mildly dehydrated, (yeah mild is just a nice way to put it)... and then walked them out to the waiting ambulance and to the hospital... oh the screaming match with parents was legendary... how dare we do that to their precious kids and why not take them directly to the US? Doing SAR, Fire and Rescue, and simple EMS on a border city had its special joys.

Lets just say that the Consular officer was a tad shocked when I did mention CPS, since the Scout troop leader never had any paperwork authorizing taking these kids to a foreign country and I was getting sick and tired of self righeous parents that wanted things their way...

[Caoimhe]

194. She was about 85

a spritely older woman but still... laproscopic knee surgery isn't a walk in the park, and the older you get the longer it takes to heal. They went on a moderate to difficult hike, a group of very energetic seniors I must say. I applaud them for doing something rather vigorous outdoors that is a bit harder than say walking a golf course, but they should have thought about her knee. She was very grateful and her companions were sweet, but we still ground our teeth as we struggled up and down this one horse trail, carrying a heavy old scoop stretcher in an arid crumbling rocky environment. I wasn't the only one that questioned my choice of volunteerism when we got back to the crummy.

Your adventure in Mexico.. sounds like a King of the Hill episode. I'm so glad I've never had to deal with more than about a 3 layer SAR bureaucracy (ragtag SAR group/Regional SAR group (that had no respect for us lightweights)/County Sheriff)

Just to volunteer for the group I was involved with, I had to spend about $200 in supplies. I got a used Silva compass from my dad, but the rest I had to buy. A pair of decent hiking boots, emergency blankets, hand warmers and waterproof matches, MRE's, tarp, nylon cord, folding shovel, first aid kit, stocking cap, orange surveyor flagging (I got that from my dad too), folding pocket saw. I took classes in how to tie knots, how to rappel, how to make a shelter out of natural materials.

Wait a minute, am I describing the BOY SCOUTS? I never was in the Boy Scouts, being a girl, and well I am not religious in any way. Anyway, I realize that every person out there trying to rescue folks trapped on a mountain, are doing so because their HEART tells them to do what they can to save their fellow humans. They realize they have special skills, and are eager to use them. Every rescue is a learning experience. Every rescue involves a debriefing. Nobody wants it to be a Recovery and not a RESCUE.

I had one where a young man apparently drowned in an irrigation canal. We searched every inch of hundreds of acres of farm field, and irrigation lateral canals. It is like firefighting, the community reaches out to help, providing food and $$ to help. Sadly, his dogs had been swimming in the canal too close to a large siphon. As far as they can reconstruct, he jumped in to rescue his dogs from the strong forward current into the plunge (siphon) and got sucked in himself. After dealing with the irrigation district we were able to get them to drain all canals and the siphon.. and sure enough his body was hung up at an elbow. Terrible experience but it was a learning experience with me. I believe that knowing his parents and searching for him, every waking hour... made me more human..

Crap, didn't mean to get all .. mushy

[nadinbrzezinski]

195. Oh don't worry about the mushy part

I worked for the Red Cross in Mexico which does EMS (unlike the US) and runs hospitals

My way, I realized years later, to pay back since they let my dad in after the holocaust

As to bureaucracies, yep we had them... our own internal bureaucracy, and of course municipal police, state police, the Federales

As an aside we had a pet dog, he was the dog of a patient who passed on so we adopted the mutt, and boy he could smell the Federales a mile away and he despised them.

And from time to time we also had to deal with the US Consulate who, shhhh... don't tell anybody, are all but very responsive critters in the weekend... of course no consulate is... gee golly there were times we went... who wants to call the Duty Officer? Of course speaking English I drew the short stick more often than not

As to buying equipment, yep... not only did I get my mountain rescue gear, but also medical, uniforms, structural firefighting, my own two way radio... got expensive... but hey, I always said to myself... since I have this crap somebody will live tonight... and yep we got training in a multitude of specialties

I was a half mountain rescue person, as well as trained in HAZMAT, fire fighting and auto rescue, nuts? Absolutely, but I would never exchange that for the world. I still have my mountain gear, the rest I gave it to the hospital when I left, for the most part.

And of course, we also had the war on drugs to content with, and trust me, ambulances make very good bullet magnets....



And one thing I hated was being the Triage Officer at an MCI... after all I had to let go of people who were terminal, who otherwise would have gotten treated. Yep followed the damn protocol but you still have that question in the back of your mind, especially when it is a two to three year old.

[KurtNYC]

133. Um...

Cost rises for Mount Hood rescue operation

The Hood River County Sheriff’s Office, one of the main agencies spearheading the search for the three climbers, estimates it spent roughly $5,000 a day for the first three days and about $6,500 a day after that.

But that’s only part of what will be become the final price tag, in part because much of it is being done by volunteers and the military, which in the past has tagged such missions as training.
...
Kleinbaum did say that Black Hawk helicopters are estimated to cost $2,800 an hour to operate. At least two Black Hawks and a Nevada Air National Guard C-130 transport have been repeatedly used in the search.
...
Oregon law does not require victims to pay for rescue efforts unless they were negligent and failed to take basic steps to keep themselves safe, Kleinbaum said. And in those cases, costs are limited to $500 per person. Other costs are absorbed by the state and local agencies involved.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16281005/

And Blackhawk helicopters cost way more than "$2,800 an hour to operate."

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. You do know

that those are average costs to operate a chopper

you also DO KNOW that if Lifelight picks you up, that joyride to the hospital averages 5K.

Hell, a code trauma ran us (oh eight years ago last time I budgeted it) on average 3K from time the call came in to the patient arriving at the trauma Unit... and that is before the hospital. A Code Trauma averaged 50K to treat, and that was south of the border, you can easily spend a quarter of a million in ten days of your local Trauma center

So what happens when YOU DO NOT have insurance?

So do us a favor, if you run into trouble, don't call 9.11...

I just gave you a realistic view inside the looking glass...

After all, you do not seem to believe we need to treat or take care of our fellow human beings, since after all, it costs money...

[KurtNYC]

175. I never said not to rescue anyone

but if someone puts themself at risk just for the "thrill" of it then perhaps they should pay for their own rescue if it comes to that. Why isn't that fair?

[nadinbrzezinski]

176. Because they already have

in several ways

1.- TAXES... you realize that we all pay SERVICE FEES that fund things like the 9.11 call center where that call came to?

2.- In their case, the Mountain Access Fees that cover for the cost of any accident or emergency on the mountain

I know it is hard to understand, but this is not coming out of your pocket... and what is more, these folks WERE NOT RICH.

You are still arguing what is not.

As to medical care... in an ideal world we would have universal health care so that would be a moot issue and many of the rescue workers who do this, especially in the back country ARE VOLUNTEERS who gladly put themselves on the line in the hope that if they need rescuing others will do it... and because it is quite possibly the most satisfying rich man hobby one can engage in. (Since you think I am swimming in cash, well there you go)

[KurtNYC]

180. Please see Post #133 (above)

[nadinbrzezinski]

182. And we already told you

you have misconceptions and no amount of links, or information, or real life experience will change your perception, wrong as it may be, that NOT ONLY RICH PEOPLE ENGAGE IN MOUNTAIN CLIMBING. I know, SHOCKING

We call this dissonance and an inability to accept what your lying eyes are telling you, which is... YOU ARE WAY OFF BASE...

And yes I am not shocked the service finds itself strapped... they have had a fairly active year... these things come and go... some years you are running ragged, others... nothing (and that is the way real rescue workers prefer it, even if it usually the calm before a storm)

And active years always stretch operating funds.

Why?

There are many reasons, but chiefly rescue services around the world are run with few cash reserves, when you are Lucky in fact, you have one.

[natrat]

91. jeesus some of you people are such incredibly narrow phonies

do you have outdoor hobbies? do you understand the allure mountaineering? do you understand that life does not revolve around politics? Do you understand that intelligent people in our past set up national parks for a reason? Do you understand that the volunteer rescuers mostly dont mind because it could just as easily be them in need of help?

[phusion]

101. I don't get it either...

The OP seems to be full of hate and misunderstanding.

Thanks for throwing some enlightenment into this whole thread.

See you in the mountains? :) :toast:

[Caoimhe]

124. Me threeither

I just ordered some "Muttlucks" (leather soled dog shoes) for our black lab mix in anticipation of spending Spring Break in Death Valley/Panamint/Saline and Nevada mining territory. Last time we went geocaching through Western Nevada and crawled around on a beautiful rock outcrop before realizing that the reason we were able to practically walk straight up these rocks was because they were SHARP. We seriously felt like spiderman walking up it. Unfortunately, the way we found out was our dog sliced his paw pad on a rock. He would have kept going but we bandaged him up and it took a few weeks to heal (of course he refused to leave his bandage on). I guess spending that $35 on these Muttlucks, gas money and hiking boot tread makes me a wealthy..selfish... risk taking snob.

Man, I can't wait!


Zabriskie Point


Mosaic Canyon


Titus Canyon

Meet us up there!

[KurtNYC]

125. I think you misunderstand that I hate the media

But there is a lot of misunderstanding around winter mountain climbing. 35 climbers have died in the last 25 years on Mt. Hood. They understand the risks and they chose this activity because of those risks. Those who choose this activity are daredevils; not victims.

I lived and worked for 6 months in a national park above 9000'. Worked as high as 11,000' daily. Sometimes it was 10-below, sometimes the wind blew at 100mph. I love outdoor sports, I love nature and I wouldn't deny the experiences I have had to anyone.

(but the media's twist on this story is BS as usual)

[eyepaddle]

130. Here is another outdoor enthusisast signing in,

and I'm sigined up to become certified in swiftwater rescue--I'll be paying for that out of my own pocket and it most certainly is a volunteer position. I do stuff like this because I love the rivers and oceans, and love the people who love them as well.

I want to give back to my community--and it seems this atitude is pretty universal.

[theboss]

112. You're right. I should never have fun.

I should spend every moment not at work or in sleep, traveling around the city, giving sleeping bags to homeless people, and being self-righteous.

[leftofthedial]

10. this is a capitalist country

the wealthy are superior to the middle class

the poor are utterly worthless

if you don't like it, make lots of money yourself

[kestrel91316]

25. I was anything but "wealthy" when I used to climb. Why the assumption

that they are wealthy?

Why the HATE of actual outdoorspeople? WHY??????

You must be a pretty unhappy peson, living life vicariously, sitting in front of your big screen TV and fancy expensive computer and eating bonbons and drinking Dom Perignon all day, huh?

(See, I can make baseless and meanspirited false assumptions, too)

[leftofthedial]

30. whoa

I think you meant to reply to the OP

[kestrel91316]

40. Possibly. I lose track of where in the thread I am when I get REALLY PISSED OFF.

[theboss]

106. Only rich people go outside?

Honestly, I'm beginning to think this site is populated by a bunch of bitter couch potatoes.

Guess what? I'm white and I golf. I must hate black people.

[leftofthedial]

111. why is everyone responding to me about the "outdoors" issue?

that was in the OP. I talked about capitalism, with no reference to outdoor activities.



and if you are white and you golf, then yes you do hate black people, and brown people (other than the ones employed at a golf course).

I'm white and I don't golf anymore, and in the last week here, I've learned that I'm a homophobe, a latent bigot (whatever the fuck that is), a misogynist and a member of the ruling class.

[theboss]

113. Well, you did seem to allude to the idea that mountain climbers must be rich

Maybe I mis-read it.

I still am starting to think this site is full of bitter fat people, though. Anything involving a sport or exercise becomes an attack on sport or exercise.

[leftofthedial]

132. so, in addition to black people, you hate bitter fat people too?

LOL

I would have responded sooner, but I hauled my fat ass up off the couch and ran around the lake with my Siberian Husky.

I was just pointing out that the attitude expressed in the OP about class privilege is an artifact of capitalism, not an artifact of being an outdoorsy type.

Although the adventure vacation phenomenon is primarily about disposable income and ego.

You want exercise? Get over here and clean my house. I'm way too fat to risk that kind of exertion.

[uppityperson]

150. are, but are you uppity too?

[PLF]

11. I'll give you the 5th rec.

[kestrel91316]

18. Hmmmm. You must know a lot more about mountaineers

than I do. Back in MY climbing days, the vast majority of people I climbed with were ordinary working people with pretty mundane McJobs. Some of us were professionals, but most weren't. It's a middle-class sport. We all made pretty big sacrifices in our lives to be able to afford gear to make our climbing safer and more enjoyable.

Why the hatred of people who actually like to set foot in the out-of-doors, rather than watch it on TV??????

[Caoimhe]

20. I go rock hopping (geocaching) as often as possible

It's actually pretty cheap entertainment when you consider the alternatives, and it's healthy. I prepare for worst case scenarios, but anything can happen. These people seemed to be prepared. They fell off a ledge. Shiat happens. This was not due to negligence on their part, that's what I'm not understanding about the hatred being eschewed toward them.

[kestrel91316]

37. It's the ignorant couch potatoes that spew this crap.

Probably the same crowd that doesn't understand where meat or eggs or milk REALLY come from.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

57. Yeah.

They're even to lazy to notice they've already lost the argument.

[KurtNYC]

97. I tried to focus my criticism on the MEDIA, not the climbers

and you seem to admit that the gear for this sport is expensive. They weren't looking for just some time outdoors:

Liston said he understands critics who say people climbing Mount Hood during the winter are putting not only their own lives at risk, but also the lives of rescuers dispatched when something goes wrong.

"It's a kind of delicate balance," he said, "about doing winter climbing, and pushing some of those limits, and not doing it, and only climbing in the summer in shorts and T-shirts.

"It's kind of a point of pride you might say for a lot of climbers -- that you can take care of yourself out there."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/20/missing.climbers.ap/index.html

These are daredevils who set out to prove that they "can take care of" themselves out there. They took a calculated risk with their own lives and with the life of that dog. They survived one night at 7,800' (roughly the altitude of Bishop California). They are fine and I don't hate them...

I just think cable news presents these things from a ridiculous perspective.

[mondo joe]

98. Then why describe them as "some rich people"?

[theboss]

115. Bullshit

Your entire first paragraph is an attack on the climbers:

"On Sunday, some rich people went hiking on Mt. Hood. Their lives are apparently so devoid of problems that they are bored and go out and create problems for themselves. Problems they generally have control over like how high up a mountain one climbs, what time of year one chooses to do so, how many tracking devices and cell phones to take with you, and how many $500 sleeping bags to carry. These rich people slid down one side of the mountain, turned on their rescue beacons, had a little food, got into their fancy sleeping bags and went to sleep. They took turns having a dog provide extra warmth for them. In the morning they were picked up by taxpayer-funded rescue crews (read: low/middle income people) who have to put their own life and limb at risk whenever rich people choose to "defy death" by getting out of their Range Rovers."

Wow...that's a scathing attack on CNN.

[KurtNYC]

131. Okay, let's start with the fact that the climbers are okay

I was pointing out how little jeopardy and for how little time these people were at risk (all of which by their own choice) in order to contrast that with the media hype.

You cut off the last line of the paragraph, perhaps so you could say "your entire first paragraph is an attack on the climbers."

Here is what you disingenuously left off:
To many of us this may not seem like a big deal but I just checked with CNN and NBC and they say these people are inspiring heroes who endured incredible hardship (for 8 hours). Further "they were brave" and their dog is not a hostage to their folly but rather is also a hero and "was key to their survival."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. The travails of wealthy people sell a lot more beer and pizza then the plight of the mere proles.

They're more photogenic and dress nicer for the cameras.

[gravity]

26. It's just a human interest story

They focused on a middle class family since they were the targeted audience. The average middle class family could relate more to this story more than a story about homeless people.

[acmavm]

27. Just for shits and giggles I'll give you a rec myself. I couldn't

understand, when I heard about this story, why one of the first things that was mentioned wasn't something about what ignorant selfish assholes these people are. They thought they were such cool tough guys when the started off to climb that damn thing in the WINTER. At what point did they finally decide that they weren't the hotshots they thought they were? When they found out that they bit off way more than they could chew?

Next time they want a thrill they can go play in traffic or dodge freight trains or get in a cage with a wild animal. That way they can get their thrill and not cost the taxpayers any money or time.

[Caoimhe]

31. hmmm well

It's actually safer to walk across / climb up stuff that's consistently frozen versus stuff that's partly melted and might give way.

Winter equals firm ice and rocks frozen in place by said ice.
Summer equals wet ice, snow, and rocks falling on your head.
The top of Mt Hood is in that category.

On Mt. Hood the rescue fees come out of the cost of the park permits. It doesn't cost taxpayers a dime.

that bears repeating:

On Mt. Hood the rescue fees come out of the cost of the park permits. It doesn't cost taxpayers a dime.

Generally, mountain rescues *are* billed if the people rescued were determined to have been negligent or unsafe. These people did all the right things, according to the Clackamas County Sheriff.

[acmavm]

33. Whatever. Even if it is true that the rescue fees come out of the

park permit money, which I will have to check into because the rescue of idiot selfish morons always ends up costing big bucks, the money sure a shit could have been used for other purposes.

These people did all the right things? The right thing would have been staying down off that mountain.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Why do you hate other people?

or is that envy on your part?

And I am serious here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. I say it's envy.

The mountain climber story is interrupting his valuable Anna Nicole air time.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. Now that is a funny answer

but I guess you are onto something... red envy

[acmavm]

46. I think that taking resources that could be much better spent on

things that are really needed and necessary and using them to 'rescue' some selfish morons is a waste.

No envy. I am happy that I don't consider myself so special that I am entitled to put myself in some foolishly dicey position and then rely on other people to rescue my arrogant selfish ass. Because that's just exactly what those buffoons did going up on that mountain this time of year.

Do you feel that it's all right to be that thoughtless and selfish.

Am I AM SERIOUS HERE.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

47. We're wasting a trillion dollars in Iraq...

and you're upset about actually saving lives in American with resources that are already paid for?

[acmavm]

52. Yeah, you're right. Because we're wasting money in Iraq no

one should mention wasting money on anything else.

Try again.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

53. Who's wasting money?

The rescue is already paid for with climbing permit fees.

So instead of complaining about something legitimate, you're complaining about something imaginary.

[acmavm]

65. Find my post #50. I took the time to explain where that money

could/would have been better spent.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

68. I saw that post.

I appreciate the value of after school programs and such, but I'm pretty sure that rescuing human lives is more important.

:rofl:

[acmavm]

81. Those humans weren't smart enough to know when they were

biting off more than the could chew.

One does have to wonder.

I'm not saying I wish they were dead. Heavily fined maybe, but not dead.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. Sure they did.

They came perfectly prepared. Had an accident.

They did everything right.

Maybe you should have been more prepared when you replied to this thread.

[acmavm]

89. The only thing they did right was get on the phone and start

crying for help.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

100. They also brought the necessary survival gear...

including rescue beacons, and so on.

Can you point out anything the climbers did wrong? Be my guest.

Point out any one thing.

[theboss]

117. Well, thank you, for telling me how to spend my money

When shall you issue your next decree?

[Caoimhe]

56. You take a greater risk

by getting into your car and driving.

But I wouldn't want to dampen your hatred of these "rich", "selfish", "clownlike" teachers who enjoy getting out and being active.

Don't let facts get in the way or anything.

[mondo joe]

69. How about we shut down hospital emergency rooms?

Do yuo have any idea what ER resources are "wasted" on people resonsible for their own situations?

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. If you want I can give some actual examples

of the ten years I spent as a volunteer EMS worker....

And oh boy did I see some examples that make you go.... WOOOWWWW!

But this thread is reminding me of some of the self entitled selfish atittude some folks exhibit every day of the week

Perhaps the OP should never use EMS, or other services... I mean... waste of money

But you can bet, they get in trouble, they'll be the ones going... what took you %%%%^&%&*%^%** LONG!

[theboss]

118. My only visits to the ER (so far) have involved self-inflicted injuries or sports injuries

Clearly, I am a drain on society.

[Caoimhe]

41. Yes, Mt Hood permit fees

should be used to fund soup kitchens in Iowa. Point made.

"That's why it is a rescue, not a recovery," Lt. Nick Watt of the Clackamas County Sheriff's Office told a news conference at Timberline Lodge, a ski resort at 6,000 feet. "They did everything right."

[acmavm]

50. How about outings, camping, etc. for handicapped kids or

adults even? How about special camp outs for inner city kids who don't ever see the country let alone a mountainous area like that? Or any number of projects that would be to the benefit of people other than some clowns too stupid to find something else to do.

[Caoimhe]

67. Ok.. let's NOT rescue morons who climb the mountain

and when the inner city kids come up they'll have something to do, digging out bodies. Your plan has potential.

[mondo joe]

71. Please compare the rescue cost with hospital emergency rooms

that have to work on people who fatten themselves to heart attacks, smoke themselves to emphysema, drive themselves into car crashes.

[acmavm]

77. Has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

[mondo joe]

80. Sure it does: How much money is spent on people indulging themselves

in high risk activities?

[sinkingfeeling]

48. Well, I guess you just sit on your ass all winter in Kansas, because what's there

to do? 'Idiot selfish morons' because they get out in the world and do things? Right.

[acmavm]

63. What's with the Kansas thing? The state in my posts is Nebraska.

Maybe you should get out more if you thought that was Kansas.

Is that all there is to do in your neck of the woods? Go do something that you not only aren't capable of doing, but someone else has to come and pull ass out of the snow and carry you back down to where you should have stayed in the first place.

We have lots of stuff to do here. Stuff that usually doesn't require an expensive rescue operation.

[BuelahWitch]

134. Ah, Kansas, Nebraska, we all look alike!

;)

[mondo joe]

35. Don't pollute this thread with your facts please. Next thing you'll be pointing

out how the climbers were teachers rather than the idle wealthy!

[Caoimhe]

36. *snarf*

you owe me a keyboard :rofl:

[Bake]

29. "Where is Brtiney's support system????"

That one galls my *ss, and all the talking heads are talking about her lack of a "support system." Support system? How about a support system for the working poor? Or the homeless? But poor widdle Britney needs a support system.

Bake

[Cobalt Violet]

163. And the media said they would.

Would cover the poor after Katrina caught them so off guard. They're still not covering the poor.

[nadinbrzezinski]

167. That comes down to who pays for their adds

turn on insert news service here during prime time

Don't listen to the news, but watch closely to who is runnings adds

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Ah the level of misconceptions is just fucking amazing

1.- You don't need to be rich to take on mountain climbing

Heck my rig that I used for RESCUE is over 10 thousand dollars, and that does not mean I went and bought that overnight... no siree, I bought it over the course of many years... I guess by your definition I am swiming in cash... gee golly that IS news to me.

2.- It is a PERCEPTION that only rich people engage in mountain climbing... and a popular one at that. Many folks engage in some for of outside activities, ranging from light hiking to technical mountaneering... and you are right some spend lods of money, but not all.

3.- This holier than though attitutde by somoe of you every time somebody gets lost is just fucking amazing and shows your LACK OF EMPATHY for others. Heck it makes me wonder why you might bash freepers, since the attitude is the same, though in their case against poor people. After all, I mean if you worked hard enough...

4.- These stories are POPULAR not as distraction but becuase they place humans against nature... this pitting is primeeval and people enjoy them. We have had them in every age... this is not an invention of the modern US Media.

[DrunkenMaster]

60. you just don't get it

If you own a ten thousand dollar rig that allows you to spend leisure time climbing mountains then you are wealthy no matter how long it took you to purchase it.

Are you so out of touch with the rest of the human race living on this planet that you actually think you aren't wealthy in comparison?

For shame. No wonder this planet is circling the toilet drain.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

62. Oh, I get it.

School teachers are wealthy and don't deserve rescue because there are children starving in Africa.

:eyes:

[DrunkenMaster]

72. what a ridiculous response

If you don't realize how f**king unreasonably entitled each and every member of the American middle class is right now, you need to engage in a little self-education.

By the way? I'm a teacher.

On edit: I added "the American middle class" for purposes of specificity.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

74. Yours is a ridiculous argument.

[DrunkenMaster]

79. Ya got me again!

Your total lack of understanding of global economics, enviro-politics and standards of living has proven me incorrect!

Let's compare the lifestyles of the average American with others on the planet, shall we? Let's gauge our consumption and exploitation of natural resources to their suffering and see if we still feel vindicated. Let's see how superior and smug you are when you realize the consumption habits of the American middle class are destroying the future for our children.

Your self-centered combination of arrogance and ignorance is exactly the problem. Thanks for the illustration.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

82. We understand perfectly.

You came into this argument hoping to defend an entirely untenable position.

As such, you resorted to ridiculousness.

Yous then got pwn3d.

[DrunkenMaster]

90. this isn't a video game

"Yous then got pwn3d." Thanks for demonstrating again how indefensibly out of touch the American middle class acts. Do you actually believe that you just won the argument because you used some lingo spawned from the depths of some D&D nerd's keyboard a few years ago?

Dood! URule!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

99. No.

This discussion's seriously more stupid than your average video game.

"Do you actually believe that you just won the argument because you used some lingo spawned from the depths of some D&D nerd's keyboard a few years ago?"

No, we won the argument because we debunked the idea that the climbers were rich and ill prepared. Both of which the entire argument of the OP was founded on.

:rofl:

[Cobalt Violet]

119. As a member of the underclass do I have permission to mountaineer?

I need the stress reduction it affords me.

[mondo joe]

121. Mind you, you are asking someone who doesn't think you can be in the underclass

if you're American, because if you're American you're wealthy.

(Just the same, I'll bet money that poster doesn't ask his teacher's union to negotiate for LESS money, because after all he's a wealthy teacher.)

[Cobalt Violet]

147. I'd have to be completely delusional to think I was wealthy.

My income is over 100% of the poverty level but less than 200%. I pay 60% of my income for housing. I have no retirement, 401K or any investments. I have no health insurance, haven't been to the doctor in over 5 years. I have a very serious, raging virus in my blood that would cost thousands a month to treat. I drive a 1995 with a leaking head gasket and leaking transmission. I spend as much on anti-freeze as I do on gas. I wonder sometimes who will last longer me or my car. Some people may consider me a rich American. I don't. Would they trade places with me?

So what if I like to challenge myself mentally and physically by going out in what little wilderness is left in the world? I can't explain how alive I feel during and after I do it or why it works for me. Nothing relaxes me more or give me more inner peace. As long as I can exert myself, I feel more alive than dead. The days I can't get out of bed I feel dead already.

[mondo joe]

76. How "unreasonably entitled each and every American is right now"?

So much for your complaints about Katrina rescue.

[mondo joe]

64. So that's it? There's the poor and the wealthy, and if you own almost

anything you're wealthy?

That will be remarkably useless for purposes of understanding.

[DrunkenMaster]

75. why do you think 90% of the planet believes Americans are clueless?

This might be the place to start thinking about similar issues...

[mondo joe]

78. Oh no, I understand you exactly. There is no difference between these two:

http://www.thecemeteryproject.com/images/Photos/Bush,%20Laura.jpg

After all, all American are entitled, so there's no practical distinction between any of them.

:eyes:

[DrunkenMaster]

88. thanks for the correction -- you are right!

You are correct, of course, and it was wrong of me to place poor Americans in the same boat with the parasites who are currently sucking the planet dry.


Thanks for the correction!

[mondo joe]

92. Next: Please appreciate that regardless of global status, there are

people in the United States who range from the poor to the wealthy in varying degrees.

And as a rule teachers do not count amoung the more wealthy.

[DrunkenMaster]

93. I'm not wealthy...

My SUV is almost six years old!

[mondo joe]

94. I'm sorry you're wasting more effort on a failed, untenable argument.

Good luck.

[uppityperson]

152. You drive a SUV?

How much did it cost? What mileage does it get? Does that mean you are rich?

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. What part of the word RESCUE did you miss

in your readying comprehension class?

By the way teach I did that rescue not in the US but in a much poorer country where people do engage in resuce and spend these wads of cash out of love for their fellow human beings

By the way, I have been on that other side looking in at the clueless American...

I will give you a free clue... you qualify.

[KurtNYC]

107. If a sport for which the gear costs $10,000 does not qualify as

a rich guy sport what does? Flying vintage fighter planes?

Given the choice between empathizing with someone who chooses to risk their own life (and their dog's life) and empathizing with someone who is the victim of circumstances beyond their control, I'll take the later.

They were NEVER lost. Had GPS, a beacon and cell phones. Not dehydrated, no frostbite, just one head injury and "she's doing fine." This story is totally over-blown IMHO.

[nadinbrzezinski]

116. What part of RESCUE are you missing

anyway, my gear was that much since I had to carry enough gear to find people, and extras to help them get off a hill, mountain etcetera

I am sure if I just did it for pleasure I could have cut it down by quite a bit...

Then again I may be thinking of ALL my RESCUE gear including Bunker Pants, fire jacket, helmets, (multiple for multiple uses), and the rest of the gear

But let me see, if I want to go rapelling, lets price this shall we?

Carabiners, ten, self locking check $61.99

150 static rope (I used static for rescue, while technical climbing uses dynamic ropes) $110.00

Harness: 50.00 dollars (I spent fairly more on mine since it WAS a tactical harness, and I don't see that one on any webstise, so lets say 75)

CMI Rescue Ring... 30 dollars (x2), sixty dollars

Now that was MY BASIC rescue bag, that went with me inside an ambulance anytime we responded.

So lets price this, shall we?

62
110
50
60

For a grand total of..... 282

you can follow this here... oh sorry I forgot the bag I carried this crap in... so possibly 300, and some otehr ancilarry things another 20... and taxes, 360...

So tell me once again, that this is such a rich man's hobby. I know people who spend far more on gaming supplies in a month than I woudl have right now if I were putting my basic RESCUE gear together.

Here is the link I took the CURRENT prices from

http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/climbing-rocktools.html

[KurtNYC]

136. No GPS beacon, no cell phone?

You haven't priced out what THESE people had. They spent the prior night sleeping on the mountain so they brought all the gear for this. GPS Beacon $650-400, bag rated down to 0-degrees: $400 to $700

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/sleeping-bags/cold/

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

139. Are you still trying to argue that public school teachers are rich?

Both the GPS bags and sleeping bags can be rented on the cheap.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. MWR rents those suplies

to military families (another group who is swimming in cash, for two bucks a weekend)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

142. You know what I suspect costs more than either...

than GPS beacons or sleeping bags?

The computer this person is using to complain about the price of GPS beacons and sleeping bags.

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Yep

:-)

God the computer we are going to replace the one I am typing from in the comming year costs far more than those things too

[nadinbrzezinski]

140. I priced MY GEAR

since I worked OUT of an Emergency Vehicle it would be silly to have to call 312 to get help to ME... doncha think?

But if you insist since I BOUGHT my two way radio too, my bunker pants, my Medical Equipment and all that, yep, it is around 10K

but if I wanted to go to Mission Trails Park to do some rapelling, the only thing to add to this listed gear is my cell phone. Given I use it for more than just outdors... doncha think it is stoopid? But if you insist, I can go rapelling under 400... hate to break it to you... but this is NOT a rich man's sport and as I said I know some gamers who spend that in a month

[mondo joe]

145. Maybe you could appear on FAUX news to bash teacher's unions.

They are obviously making way too much money and have too much time on the their hands.

Right?

[DrunkenMaster]

58. a lot of people won't get this...

If you read the response posts I think you will see the continuation of a trend I have noticed for some time. When faced with the reality of their situation -- ie, the fact that Americans are the wealthiest group on the planet and that we consume planetary resources like a drunk the night before prohibition -- you get amazing responses.

My favorites include things like: "How can I be wealthy, I'm still paying for my Toyota Four-Runner!" or "I'm knee-deep in credit card debt, how dare you call me rich!"

This is an indication of how deeply out of touch the average American is with the rest of the planet. Its disgusting and pathetic.

[TZ]

85. I agree that our country is out of step

with the rest of the non-western world (remember Canada and most of Europe have similar standards of life as the US). However this country was based on the right to pursue "life, liberty, and happiness" no matter how stupid the sport the rest of us find it. I sounds like they did act responsibly. There will always be places to better spend money as so many people argue. However, I think that human lives are always more important whatever the situation. There are just as many poor people that do stupid things that cost money as rich people. You just don't see it on TV.

[gravity]

96. So if you are America, you have no right to complain?

Stop singling out the average American, when everyone else in the world behaves the same way. If you are rich or poor and get stranded, you would want someone to help you out and not be left for dead.

[Yavin4]

59. 8 Hours For A Rescue? How Long Did Katrina Victims Have To Wait For Help?

Oh, that's right. The Katrina victims don't have much of a balance sheet.

[DrunkenMaster]

61. not to mention

distinctly different complexions....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

70. Hey, those people in New Orleans were rich, right?

After all, they were American. And America's the richest country in the world.

They should have used that rescue money on something more worthwile.

:rofl:

[DrunkenMaster]

73. wow, you sure got me!

There's just no refuting that one...

By the way, the United States of America , with approximately 5% of the world’s population consumes over 24% of its petroleum and coal based energy, energy which fuels their levels of production and consumption.

Globally, the 20% of the world’s people in the highest-income countries account for 86% of total private consumption expenditures — the poorest 20% a minuscule 1.3%.

More specifically, the richest fifth:

Consume 45% of all meat and fish, the poorest fifth 5%
Consume 58% of total energy, the poorest fifth less than 4%
Have 74% of all telephone lines, the poorest fifth 1.5%
Consume 84% of all paper, the poorest fifth 1.1%
Own 87% of the world’s vehicle fleet, the poorest fifth less than 1%
Runaway growth in consumption in the past 50 years is putting strains on the environment never before seen.

— Human Development Report 1998 Overview, United Nations Development Programme (UNDP)

[leftyclimber]

66. I'm glad to know that my $12,000 a year income

qualifies me as rich.

The rest of the US must be REALLY fucking broke if I'm rich.

Dude. :eyes:

And we should all wrap ourselves in bubble wrap and hide under the couch.

Personally, I'd rather not die covered in dust bunnies and wrapped in bubble wrap. People might get ideas. But that's just me.

I study this stuff, but I've given up on explaining. Some people would just rather we wrap ourselves in bubble wrap and hide under the couch than listen to academic evidence as to why people take recreational risks.

Go to Google Scholar and look up "edgework". Look up stuff by Alan Ewert, while you're at it. You might learn something.

Not all risk is bad risk.

SAR are volunteers.

That is all.

-lefty the rich dirtbag climber

[Cobalt Violet]

114. Another low-income climber here!

Yep, that's me up there in my hand-me-down polypro, my thrift shop gor-tex and my ebay crampons. And for when there is no snow or ice, I bought some Garmont vegan hiking boots from ebay that were nearly new (they didn't fit the owner).

I'll have to look up "edgework" myself.

Winter is my favorite season to climb. Nothing else gives me such relief from stress. I sleep so good at night for days after a hike. I don't know why people think this is an activity of the rich.

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. Well I just gave a list of prices

if I were to put together my basic rapel rescue kit I took with me in the ambulance at all timse

It came (new) to under 400 dollars, which I am sure may surprise these idiots....

By the way, I wish I could do it, I loved rapeling, but my knees and back (casualties of getting morons out of situations) are no longer able to do that.

Boy do I miss hanging from a line taking in the country side...

[KurtNYC]

143. Wait a minute -- "getting morons out of situations" ?!

and you will need one of these to sleep on Mt. Hood this time of year:

http://www.trailspace.com/gear/valandre/freja/

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

144. I gotta say, Kurt...

that you've talked yourself into a real doozy of a situation here.

[KurtNYC]

158. Yes.

Time to activate my rescue beacon! ;-)

(I keee'd. I love outdoor types and even most adrenaline junkies. I love teachers. I'm glad these people were not injured. But I stand by my assertion that CNN and NBC twist these types of stories as they do virtually ever other type of story they cover. )

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

159. I will agree with that much.

The media exploits it.

Paraphrasing from local news:

"The rescued climber is now in the hospital and listed in fair condition, but despite that doctors say she'll be fine."

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. You DO KNOW that you can RENT one of those

to sleep on the mountain this time of the year, or are you THAT dense?

[Cobalt Violet]

155. I'm not a rapeller.

I'm much too afraid of heights. That must sounds pretty weird that a mountaineer would be afraid of heights I guess. I like ice climbing and winter bushwhacking. But ladders and ropes aren't for me. I need something solid beneath my feet, like a mountain.


Sounds like you've done some tough rescues. Where did you do that?

[nadinbrzezinski]

160. South of the border

in Tijuana, where we BOUGHT all our gear, uniforms, defibrllators, suction machines, heck we rebuit a junker into an ambulance.

Though I must say, once we got a kid off a cliff and I ruined my rope...

His dad, (yes this kid WAS the heir to a gentleman with wads of cash), gave junior quite the one sided conversation when he came to pick junior up. We thought that was the end of it... nope, he showed up two weeks later wtih about 2000 feet of static line and other rescue gear. It was HIS donation for us putting our asses on the line for Junior, who was ordered OFF the mountain or cliffs until he got some common sense.

Yep the kid was one of the morons, but his dad was a pleasure to meet

Funny thing, he started his bizz to serve the climbers... and that is how he got rich. From what I heard after that rescue he decided to sponsor some teams.

[eyepaddle]

135. And I wonder how I stack up as a kayaker

Dood, I totally own boats--only the super wealthy own boats.

On the plus side, out in the woods, or out on the river (or up on a face I'll assume)you don't have to hear all this chatter.

As the saying goes, I don't live to kayak, I kayak to live.

[mondo joe]

146. I suggest you prepare your Scarlet Letter K right away.

NO HOBBIES FOR YOU!

[Cobalt Violet]

151. You assume correct.

No chatter here. Here I transcended rich and poor. :hi:

[Caoimhe]

177. YUMMM where is that? n/t

[Cobalt Violet]

187. Mt. Monadnock NH.

3,165-ft and the second most climbed Mt. in the world next to Mt. Fuji. It's not the biggest Mt. but it's the closest one to me that goes above tree line and I know my way around there pretty good since I've been climbing there for years. This photo was taken the day after a freezing rain storm. Everything was covered with ice. I felt like I was on another planet. I got lots of pictures but none really do it justice. It keeps me in shape for when go further up north to the White Mts.

[Caoimhe]

197. Now, see what you've done

Now I have the urge to climb Mt. Monadnock, New Hampshire. I never considered there might be hills worthy of scaling in New Hampshire. Of course, as a Non-indigenous Native Oregonian, I've never known much other than Pacific beach headlands and sand, and Cascade and Sierra Mountains of steep. Do you ever geocache?

[Cobalt Violet]

199. The White Mt.s are great to climb too.

They're a bit north of Mt. Monadnock but worth the drive if you got the time. They are bigger too. The west coast mountains look so different from the ones in the northeast. I've never been out west. I only know the White Mt. of NH and the Green Mts. of VT. Here another shot I took during peak foliage this past fall. I have never geocache. I don't have a GPS. It does sound like fun. I may drive people crazy because I like to go off the trail.

[MissB]

149. What does dying wrapped in bubble wrap and covered with

dust bunnies say, exactly?

:rofl:

Sorry, just hit my funny bone.

[natrat]

83. what a stupid the post

school teachers have a healthy hobby and are rescued and this moron turns it into some kind of class war-what a douche

[KurtNYC]

154. Weak

I'm going to ignore your weak personal attacks and focus your facts and your argument.

But first you will need to provide some facts and an argument.

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. Wow not even giving you price lists

and the fact taht a lot of this gear is rented is making you see why YOUR OP was WAY, WAAAAYYYYYY off base

[KurtNYC]

179. Soccer is a cheap sport

Selling mountain climbing gear has made some people rich; in fact SOMEONE upthread said:

His dad, (yes this kid WAS the heir to a gentleman with wads of cash), gave junior quite the one sided conversation when he came to pick junior up. We thought that was the end of it... nope, he showed up two weeks later wtih about 2000 feet of static line and other rescue gear. It was HIS donation for us putting our asses on the line for Junior, who was ordered OFF the mountain or cliffs until he got some common sense.

Yep the kid was one of the morons, but his dad was a pleasure to meet

Funny thing, he started his bizz to serve the climbers... and that is how he got rich.

So you just described one mountain climber as a rich kid ("moron") and his father (also a climber?)as a guy who "got rich" selling mountain climbing gear. Yet you refuse to say this is an expensive sport, especially when it involves climbing a popular mountain during a snow storm.

[nadinbrzezinski]

181. You sure soccer is a cheap sport?

And by the way, the fact that somebody makes his money RUNNING A BUSINESS does not mean that the sport is expensive

Yes in theory you can play soccer with just a ball, but in practice, YOU SURE IT IS THAT CHEAP? Have you GONE INTO A SPORTS EQUIPMENT STORE and PRICED things like Goalie gloves, how bout cleats, perhaps uniforms?

Look from what you just wrote, you obviously have a problem with people who own a company.

By that same extent you will have a problem with me, after all I AM the President of a Small RPG Company and once we make a profit, you will have a problem with me.

GEE LOUIS, you really have a chip on your shoulder, don't you?

[KurtNYC]

186. This all started with me saying that the media is fascinated by the "suffering"

of rich people; more so than with the very real suffering of those less well off.

It seems to have come off like I was saying rich people suck or should not be rescued or don't suffer. I don't believe any of those things. But I couldn't resist quoting you after you described one climber as rich and someone who sells climbing gear as, in effect, richer. You are not talking about the family that owns Patagonia are you?

Good luck with your company. Hope you are in the black soon.

[nadinbrzezinski]

191. No I am not talking about the guy who owns patagonia

Nor would I say exactly who it was... suffice it to say the rope was put to good use.

that said, yes I did mention the fact that they were rich and the actions of the father, who started his company by scratchign some cash and selling things here and there. He now has one of the top outdoor companies in the US.

The fact that he not only gave us gear (which was a dream come true as we were always strapped), but now also sponsors some rescue teams with gear is heart warming. He is somebody giving back, in my book... and he was thinking about it before his son, who was an 18 year old I will live forever type... like many 18 year olds, needed that scare to grow up.

But you should reread your post

Also, the fact is that these folks who were removed from the mountain were Middle Class folk, doign something they love to do. Yes Jenna and Barb are also teachers, but trust me, they lack the guts that it takes to go out and pit yourself against the mountain, and unless you got some coke form them at the summit, it is damn hard to do.

I cannot explain the joy of being on any mountain, large or small.. heck I would not go into Mt Houd, but these days I could not go into the local mole hills either (I know my limits, and presently they are short)

But this story was not about rich people getting straded... it was about man versus nature... this is what all these stories are about.

As to why it takes as much space in the media as it did... well the media cannot chew gum and walk at the same time... but it is not the climbers... and as I said, stories like this will be covered until the cows come home, even if we break the media into small, itty bitty one station organzations. These stories, as a reporter who once worked for CNN told me, waiting on antoher call... strange people you meet in the field... fill a certain need for vicarious adventure... that is why they are covered. Of course there is a problem when the media covers only one story... they used to be able to do much better, but take a look at the commercials running in prime time. Are you in the market for a locomotive? (GE) Perhaps for a fighter bomber (Raytheon)... some distribution systems (BSF)... see once you figure who pays, you figure HOW they cover these stories, not wether they should be covered, they should, but it is the method to the madness that drives everybody nuts. And they should in particular when they have a possitive outcome, since they do give hope to people... again something that reporter explained and until then I got it.

Yep, over ten years I got to meet some real people who outside their profesional persona taught me a lot about the world

(ed for clarity)

[natrat]

86. kurt get a life and dont waste our time with drivel like this-they are school teachers

[htuttle]

87. "If the homeless would only activate their rescue beacons..."

That sentence is a keeper.

[spanone]

95. kick & recommend

[Burma Jones]

108. I agree...When you don't have to worry where your next meal is coming from, or whether you'll freeze

a Hangnail is tragic.....

[Sequoia]

123. You ought to send that in to your newspaper.

That was very good. Really.

[mondo joe]

128. The newspaper fact checks might balk at the idea of "rich" teachers.

On the other hand, Faux News could use it to bash teachers unions.

[mondo joe]

126. Oh here's another wasteful wealthy mountain climber.

Al Gore.



Now we know his environtmentalism is just some self serving rich people thing.

[MissB]

148. I'm still not getting the rich people = mountain climbers.

Outdoorsy people tend to be more middle class than upper class.

The upper class people that I know go jetting off in their private jets to go skiing in foreign countries. They'd never dream of strapping on hiking boots or climbing gear. :rofl:

I'm an outdoorsy sort of person. I trek through a state park every morning for 45 minutes to an hour, rain or shine. I relish getting mud on my shoes. This morning, my feet were thoroughly soaked because the constant overnight rain created streams down the hiking trails. Now, mountain climbing just isn't my thing - but if it were, it is certainly within financial reach. I'm not rich. I'm middle class.

If I got lost, I guess I won't count on you.

I get your Brittney rant, but I reallllly don't get the mountain climber rant. Guess many of the folks on this thread don't either.

[KurtNYC]

164. Point taken

I should have focused more on the fact that these people (whatever their income) did not suffer much and were not technically lost ever since they had GPS beacons. Then moved back to more of the media hype stuff.

One thing I like about DU is that you get feedback right away. People will tell you quickly and honestly (bluntly) what they feel you got right and what you got wrong. Broadbrush? soft facts? DUers will tell you. If you have provided any kind of tangent, someone will take it.

I don't lump most outdoor sports together with the hard-core adreniline stuff like climbing Mt Hood in a snow storm. I think the first category is all about enjoying nature, getting in touch with what's real and relaxing or exercising as you please; celebrating life. The 2nd category is about defying death. I think there is a huge difference there.

[uppityperson]

153. A lot of your OP is (deleted) but I do agree that the rich/famous get too much coverage.

[welshTerrier2]

165. great post.

very well written. it's amazing to me that you're getting beaten on by mountain climbers. the post isn't about mountain climbing. it's about the MSM and what they consider an important focus. i don't hate mountain climbers; i'm glad when they're found safe. but lost climbers and their suffering are a playground for the news media while the daily suffering of "street people" is a non-issue.

excellently done! i really enjoyed reading it.

the MSM is way too much like People Magazine and so is DU ... we need to desensationalize our focus and get the celebrities out of our faces.

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. Here is a huge secret about the MSM and

these stories

They are not new

They have been around us since the news media started covering them

They have a certain edge to them that MOST people enjoy, something about man vs nature

It is a mistake to think that the MSM just discovered them, since they didn't

This is not that different than the mining accident in 1924 in Pennsylvania that had people glued to the local Morse Station and post office...

And count on the media covering any kind of dramatic rescue until the cows come home.

Even if we do live in a cynical age when everything the media does is put under the microscope, but reality is THIS IS A STORY for the same reason those trapped miners were a story or that kid in Waco texas that fell down a hole. They are dramatic, and they are cheap to produce, and mostly... people find a sense of worth in them.

That is the sad and crazy reality, and the world is not only about hard news

Now Britney Spears, yep she's news, for the E-Channel... what's her name that still needs to be buried, again she's news the moment that she died, and after that ... the E-Channel

The fact that they cannot chew and walk at the same time has all to do with consolidation, but even if we break the media into small, itty little pieces, you can bet your ass mountain climbers lost... will receive this level of attention, why? for the same reason travelogues of the Great Age of Discovery WERE popular...

[welshTerrier2]

169. well, here's another secret

we are in very, very serious trouble in this country. i don't disagree with anything you wrote. the problem, though, is that it's NOT OK.

what are those expressions about the vast wasteland and the medium is the message?

democracy requires an informed electorate. what it does not require is knowing about Brittany Spears. btw, my point is NOT that a pull at your heartstrings story about mountain climbers shouldn't be covered. that's not at all my point. my point is that we cannot afford to have little human interest tidbits dominate our major sources of information. that's what we have now. if it bleeds, it leads. don't say depressing stuff during the news; no one will watch us. you want a job here? then we need to keep showing a profit.

well, people can talk about capitalism all they want to. when it infests the media, i.e. the so called "fourth estate", it poisons our democracy. and that is exactly where we are today. truly we are fiddling fools as it all circles the drain ...

[nadinbrzezinski]

171. As I said

the problem is that the press cannot chew gum and walk at the same time

These human interst stories WILL BE COVERED... whether we like it or not

As I said, you want britney, sure let the ENTERTAINMENT Channel cover it 24\7... that is where that belongs

But this climber story takes all of five minutes, ok thirty when they find them

Fact is, you cannot cover serious crisis mode all the time, (nor do they want to... I mean Raytheon pays the comercials and goddamit I am NOT in the market for an F-117... (heck I have no interest even in the kit model)

But you will not be able to remove these stories, even if you break our five giants into 200,000 itty, bitty little pieces.


They have a role... and their role is HOPE

[Name removed]

168. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KurtNYC]

184. It is an expensive sport and they had all the right gear.

I suppose that doesn't necessarily mean they are rich but they have enough time and money to risk their necks on Mt. Hood in the dead of Winter for thrills. College professors are "teachers", corporate trainers are "teachers", heck even Laura and Jenna B*sh are teachers -- it is not impossible for a teacher to be financially secure.

Does Patagonia take food stamps?

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KurtNYC]

192. Okay, there is chip on my shoulder - made of 4 ounces of platinum

and studded with flawless blue "conflict-free" diamonds -- but it is a rented chip! ;-)

The reality of the situation is that most people in the world cannot afford $700 for a sleeping bag, etc. Yes you can rent such items but the cost is still well above a hike in the woods and out of reach for most.

[nadinbrzezinski]

193. No it is not

SDSU rented this gear to students, twenty years ago the rental fee was oh 5 bucks for the weekend, Inflation and all it is probably ten now

MWR, the miltiary system, rents this on a prorated rate for militaty personnel and you can get them as low as two bucks for the weekend

Given that many college students spend quite a bit more than that on computer games (and paper and pencil games)

And military personnel also do the same

Now Ray Sporting goods, I have not checked their rental fees recently but a whole kit was something like 25 for a weekend, including bag, tent and other sundries.

Granted, if I am goign to go climb anywhere (why I got my rope), I'd rather use mine and not rent... my life, that line... I have a careful log...

Now other equipemnt, such as Kayacks, can be more expensive, but there are cheap places you can get it

Hell, if you are an alum, you may very well be able to rent it from your local college...

[fujiyama]

170. What do mountain climbers have to do with Britney?

If you want to argue that the news is full of fluff, including too much useless celebrity gossip...fine, you're absolutely right. That's not really a new criticism.

If you want to argue that mountain climbers should be forced to buy insurance beforehand otherwise reimburse the park for rescue costs, that's a valid argument too...

But one doesn't have to do with another...unless Britney was one of the mountain climbers that got stuck!

Remember though, networks report celebrity gossip because it sells. People go out and buy tabloids. People enjoy it because it's a diversion from their own seemingly mundane lives - and it gives people a boosted sense of confidence - "See how screwed up those celebs are?" I guess my life's OK after all". Or it's just humorous and entertaining.

Networks don't report on homelessness, because it's depressing. It's the same reason genocide in Sudan doesn't receive huge ratings...or even Iraq for that matter getting limited news time...or the disastrous state of New Orleans...or...you get the point...

[BootinUp]

173. Not sure of their financial status

could be they were just taking a vacation and are athletic types that enjoy risky activity. Then you claim they are responsible for the rescuers who undoubtedly were not forced to join that endeavor. You seem to be angry, I guess I can't blame you as we humans are pretty self centered and greedy. But I don't think the solution is lashing out at vacationers whether you agree with their chosen (legal) activity or not.

[mitchum]

174. True, that's why I advocate putting them up against cushioned walls

[Madspirit]

188. If Not For

If not for adventurers we would still be in the cave.

...and no one makes rescue workers be rescue workers. They know the hazards of their job.

...and to what someone else said, I think couch potatoes and sedentary people do cost society a whole lot more than these occasional rescues.

Mostly, I think Adventurers are why we still exist as an evolving species rather than a dormant piece of one-celledness.

Lastly, I don't care how much money they have or don't have. That's not how I rate the value of a life.

Lee

[piedmont]

189. Ugh. Another "outdoors enthusiasts are rich assholes" thread

whatever. Keep planning your revolution.

[unblock]

196. i'm so rich i have little people to climb mountains FOR me.

:sarcasm:

[femrap]

201. I enjoyed your OP very much.....

Yes, the poor little Rich People and how our culture must care and feed them.

Thx.

[Madspirit]

202. Well except...

These were not rich people. They were teachers.

...and if not for Adventurers we would still live in caves.

...and rescue workers know exactly what their jobs entail when they take them.

...and the very sedentary and other couch spuds, ultimately, cost society a whole lot more than these OCCASIONAL rescues.

Mostly, they weren't rich people which makes the entire OP off-base.
Lee

[Marnieworld]

203. wow

It's not every day when a post at one point gets me choked up ("If the homeless would only activate their rescue beacons.") and then soon after that makes me laugh out loud ("By age 10 she was felt a deep sense of ennui as she confronted her own mortality and dealt with the deeply personal spiritual questions around this").

I mourn the loss of actual journalism in this country. What a waste of innovation, intelligence and technology to spend it on Anna Nicole, Britney, or whatever meaningless story they are peddling today. All of this time and money and talent (I mean the talent that created the technology and changes we have seen since the dawn of television not the talking head puppets on it). It's a wasted opportunity to have this ability to teach and inform but use it for mind candy, mental junk food. We all lose because of it.

They are heroes but what about those who don't have the rescue beacons or warm dogs? They are invisible non-existent apparently.

Anyway, good post. :hi:

[theboss]

204. When was this neverneverland when the media covered real stories?

Even Edward R. Murrow had to spend most of his time on celebrity puff pieces. And he had to thank his advertisers during broadcasts.

[Marnieworld]

206. Cmon you don't notice anything different?

I'm 35 years old. I can remember a time before cable news existed at all. All news always had fluff pieces and their "human interest" stories but that wasn't the entire broadcast. I think the actual turn for the worst was OJ combined with the endless coverage of the blown out of proportion manufactured Clinton "Scandals".

If it's always been this way then Paddy Chayefsky was completely delusional. Why would Network make any sense? Why would it be written at all if journalism was always this way? It's producing news for profit as opposed to the former philosophy that it was meant to inform and that it was a public service. News departments always ran at a loss and it was accepted.

Now we have Sybil the Soothsayer every night and all this other tabloid trash.
If only people heeded his warning.

[theboss]

207. Yes, when I was a kid, there was 60 minutes of national news a night on two stations

And 60 Minutes on the weekend. Heck, ABC barely had a news division until the late 70s.

And I think a fairly good portion of the national news was Charles Kuralt visiting things like the Garlic Festival.

Later on, Nightline joined the picture.

The problem is not that there is too little real news. The problem is that there is too much news. CNN, FoxNews, and MSNBC need to fill 24 hours in a day. Plus the three networks. Plus, every city I've lived in has a local 24-hour news station.

So, instead of 3 hours a day of news, we now have about 125 hours of news. And to be fair, I would say about 5 hours of that is filled with real journalism.

Still that's 120 hours of news in one day.

My advice to everyone: stop watching 24 hours worth of news. You will drive yourself crazy. And certainly don't listen to Imus AND Limbaugh AND Scarborough AND O'Reilly in the same day if you are a liberal. Why would you do that to yourself?

[Marnieworld]

209. other than occassional flipping by ive stopped completely

life is way too short to spend time with this inanity. either that or i get furious and raise my blood pressure. all news is out of my cable remote favorites.

except KO or TDS of course. :patriot:

[Madspirit]

210. I'm 52

...and I remember "real" news. I also remember when Jayne Mansfield died, Marilyn Monroe, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, etc. I remember all the divorces of Liz and Debbie and Eddie and Richard, etc. Hollywood has always been a part of the news because that's where we live out our fantasies.

Plus, the reason people like Nicole aren't totally meaningless is because, first, no life is irrelevant and next because women like that represent a particular kind of misogyny, oppression, stereotype and sexism we need to battle. Women ARE taught to get boob jobs and destroy their own looks and their own bodies, for a look that they find in a magazine, etc. They really are taught to hate themselves and make their entire self-worth wrapped up in this package. This is important.

I'm not saying put Nicole on the Front Page and the war in Iraq on a back page but don't be so dismissive of the Human part of being Human.
Lee

[NotGivingUp]

205. whether they're rich, poor, or somewhere in between, they should pay the bill for the rescue squad

[YankmeCrankme]

208. I can see both sides of this

Even though it wasn't the OP seeming intent to debate who should pay for rescues it seems the focus of many responses, along with the focus on word "rich" as opposed to his delineation of those so poor as to live in poverty and those that can afford hiking with relatively pricey equipment.

On one hand, I agree that people shouldn't pay out of pocket expense for emergency aid. It is what we pay taxes for, why we have emergency organizations and is what I believe the purpose of society and what government should provide its citizens. Natural disasters happen, people make good plans that go wrong and people do stupid things. Because of that we need these emergency aid organizations. It seems a libertarian view to charge user fees on things that are currently provided as a function of government and society. Only those that can afford to pay should be able to enjoy an activities for fear of incurring a big debt?

Now, on the other hand I agree, this should not have been any kind of news story. They slide down a hill and needed to be pulled out and they weren't in any real danger. People knew where they were, had supplies and could communicate to anyone. This could be considered the equivalent of a driver sliding down an embankment and almost going into the river and getting a tow truck to pull them up. Maybe there was a risk of drowning, but everything was okay. Does that make the national news? This story should have made page eight of the paper and not even national tv news. IMO, nobodies a hero for surviving eight hours in the cold with supplies and it wasn't a miraculous rescue.

It is weird that the responses had tended to be so hardline, either for or against the OP on this issue.