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Do you ever wonder why "corporatism" is bad for civilization?

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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:25 PM
Original message
Do you ever wonder why "corporatism" is bad for civilization?

Does it confuse you because you believe that "well I know plenty of people who work for corporations, they aren't bad people".

One way to understand it better is through the concept of Risk.

In a fair system Risk=Reward, i.e., the more risk you take, the higher your reward. The dis-economy under a corporatist dominated system is that YOU are forced to assume the risk of any contract with a corporate entity. Whether its a phone company, utilities, health insurance, almost any type of express or implies contract conatins elements of risk. The model we live in right now basically means that the people least able to afford taking risk are forced to take risk.

The rights of our corporate masters is always protected while the rights of consumers are trampled on a daily basis.

Here's a little example: When I write electronic checks, the bank takes the funds out of my account when the check is mailed. The payee might not cash it for a month but the bank makes sure that THEY benefit from the delay. Did they take any risk? No, but they sure did get the reward.

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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. No. It's always been obvious to me that rights granted to corporations
under the faux premise of 'personhood' take rights away from the American people.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I agree that the landmark decision was the seminal event
that led to today's situation, but deregulation is the reason why it gets worse every day.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Truth is, there was no landmard decision. It's all an illusion and a fraud.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Santa Clara V. Southern Pacific (1886)
Opponents of "Corporate Personhood" believe that large corporations as juristic persons have enjoyed certain constitutional rights intended for natural humans as the result of a misinterpretation of an 1886 Supreme Court Case, Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad. Opponents claim that certain rights of natural persons, such as the right to political and other non-commercial free speech, are now exercised by corporations to the detriment of the American democratic process as provided under the Constitution. Some opponents point to the recent discovery of correspondence <1> between then Supreme Court Chief Justice Morrison R. Waite, and court reporter J.C. Bancroft Davis as proof of a conspiracy among the railroad corporations to intentionally create a misrepresentation of that decision for the benefit of the railroads.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. Nope. Never happened.
<snip>
Far more remarkable, however, is that the doctrine of corporate personhood, which subsequently became a cornerstone of corporate law, was introduced into this 1886 decision without argument. According to the official case record, Supreme Court Justice Morrison Remick Waite simply pronounced before the beginning of arguement in the case of Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad Company that

The court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws, applies to these corporations. We are all of opinion that it does.
The court reporter duly entered into the summary record of the Court's findings that
The defendant Corporations are persons within the intent of the clause in section 1 of the Fourteen Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Thus it was that a two-sentence assertion by a single judge elevated corporations to the status of persons under the law, prepared the way for the rise of global corporate rule, and thereby changed the course of history.
The doctrine of corporate personhood creates an interesting legal contradiction. The corporation is owned by its shareholders and is therefore their property. If it is also a legal person, then it is a person owned by others and thus exists in a condition of slavery -- a status explicitly forbidden by the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution. So is a corporation a person illegally held in servitude by its shareholders? Or is it a person who enjoys the rights of personhood that take precedence over the presumed ownership rights of its shareholders? So far as I have been able to determine, this contradiction has not been directly addressed by the courts.
This file is mirrored from: http://laws.findlaw.com/us/118/394.html

http://www.ratical.org/corporations/SCvSPR1886.html


<snip>

Editor's notes: There has been much misunderstanding about this Court decision. Despite the issue being raised in arguments, the Justices offered no written opinion on the question of whether corporations should be considered "persons" and enjoy the protections of the 14th Amendment. The Court reporter's notes, however, quoted Chief Justice Waite declaring that, "We all are of the opinion" that the 14th Amendement applies to corporations.
Many people (rightfully) are outraged that a Court reporter could turn the Bill of Rights and 14th Amendment on their heads, which effectively is what occured once Santa Clara was cited as precedent in subsequent cases. However, the fact that the Justices never issued an opinion on "corporate personhood" lost its legal significance once they cited the case.
Court reporter's notes:
The defendant Corporations are persons within the intent of the clause in Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Under the constitution and laws of California, relating to taxation, fences created upon the line between the roadway of a railroad and the land of coterminous proprietors are not part of "the roadway," to be included by the State Board in its valuation of the property of the corporation, but are "improvements" assessable by the local authorities of the proper county.

An assessment of a tax is invalid, and will not support an action for the recovery of the tax, if, being laid upon different kinds of property as a unit, it includes property not legally assessable, and if the part of the tax assessed upon the latter property cannot be separated from the other part of it.

The State Board of Equalization of California were required by law, to assess the franchise, roadway, &c., of all railroads operated in more than one county and apportion the same to the different counties in proportion to the number of miles of railway in each. They made such assessment of the Southern Pacific Railroad, improperly including therein the fences between the roadway and the coterminous proprietor, and apportioned it and returned it as required to the different counties. In a suit by one of the counties to recover its proportion of the tax levied in accordance with such apportionment and return, the court below, at the trial, found that "said fences were valued at $800 per mile," which was the only finding on the subject; and it did not appear that the county, plaintiff, offered to take judgment for a sum excluding the rate on the value of the fences within the county at that valuation.

Held, (1) That the finding was too vague and indefinite to serve as a basis for estimating the aggregate valuation of the fences included in the assessment, or the amount thereof apportioned to the respective counties; (9) That, under the circumstances, the court could not assume that the State Board included the fences in their assessment at the rate of $800 per mile for every mile of the railroad within the State, counting one or both sides of the roadway; and could no"., after eliminating that amount from the assessment, give judgment for the balance of the tax, if any.

These actions, which were argued together, were brought to recover unpaid' taxes assessed against the several railroad corporations, defendants, under the laws of the State of California. The main - almost the only - questions discussed by counsel in the elaborate arguments related to the constitutionality of the taxes. This court, in its opinion passed by these questions, and decided the cases upon the questions whether under the constitution and laws of California, the fences on the line of the railroads should have been valued and assessed, if at all, by the local officers, or by the State Board of Equalization; whether, on the record, the assessments and. taxation upon the fences are separable from the rest of the assessment and taxation; and what was the effect of the record upon the rights of the State and the county.

One of the points made and discussed at length in the brief of counsel for defendants in error was that "Corporations are persons within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States." Before argument

MR. CHIEF JUSTICE WAITE said: The court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which forbids a State to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws, applies to these corporations. We are all of opinion that it does.

http://reclaimdemocracy.org/personhood/santa_clara_vs_southern_pacific.html

<snip>

The provision of the laws of the Constitution and the laws of California…are in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in so far as they require the assessment of their property at its full money value, without making deduction as in the case of railroads that are operated in only one county, and of other corporations, and of natural persons, for the value of the mortgages…

The Court found for the railroad. The Supreme Court Reporter, J. C. Bancroft Davis, wrote in the headnotes the following:

The defendant Corporations are persons within the intent of the clause in section I of the Fourteenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States which forbids a state to deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law.the main – and almost only – questions discussed by counsel in the elaborate arguments related to the constitutionality of the taxes. This court, in its opinion passed by these questions, and decided the cases on the questions whether under the constitution and the laws of California, the fences on the line of the railroads should have been valued and assessed, if at all, by the local officers or by the State Board of Equalization…. One of the points made and discussed at length in the brief of counsel for defendants in error was that ‘Corporations are persons within the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.’

The actual decision delivered by Justice Harlan begins by stating explicitly that the Supreme Court is not, in this case, ruling on the Constitutional question of corporate personhood under the Fourteenth Amendment or any other amendment.

http://www.authorsden.com/visit/viewarticle.asp?id=29128

<snip>

That, however, wasn't the end of it. Corporations had a lot of money and a lot at stake, and they took case after case to court. In 1886, corporations gained a victory. Before the Supreme Court session to announce the decision in the case Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific Railroad, Chief Justice Waite said that the court wouldn't hear arguments on whether the Fourteenth Amendment clause on equal protection applied to corporations; they all believed that it did.

The case was decided on other grounds. But, the principle that corporations have Fourteenth Amendment rights was inserted by the Supreme Court reporter in a header in the published report of the case. A couple of years later, in the case Minneapolis & St. Louis Railroad v. Beckwith (1889), the Court cited the Santa Clara case as the precedent for corporations having due process and equal protection under the Fourteenth Amendment. With that, corporations became legal persons in the United States, and gained the ability to challenge in federal court regulatory actions at the state level.

http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2002/02oct-nov/oct-nov02interviewedwards.html



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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. corporatism is also a cop-out
"it's the nature of the beast: someone loses while others gain."

Yuh... therefore you don't have to feel guilty from benefiting from someone else's pain. How convenient!

Just look at the health insurance industry or war profiteering. They both claim the same shit... guilt-free-rationalization is at the root of it all.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. So you think the bank should let you write a $1000 check and leave the money in the account
for you to write more $1000 checks on it? I'm sure no criminal minded people would ever take advantage of that. They just being evil corporatists. :crazy:
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Does the short circuit in your brain ever cause problems in the real world for you?
Edited on Mon Dec-24-07 01:39 PM by burythehatchet
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. There isn't one.
Do you think there are not people who commit fraud?

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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. That's a perfect question...
Yes, there are people who commit fraud. The corporate response is always collective punishment. Have I committed fraud? No. How long have I had an account at this bank? >20 years. What's my balance? Fluctuates between 40 and 70K. How many checks have I bounced in my life? 0.

So explain to me the justification of taking money out of my account BEFORE the payee has cashed the check.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. To prevent fraud. I think you already know that but just want to smart off now

Or you can pretend that a bank can make specific policies for every individual customer.


And everyone who has bounced a check at one point hadn't bounced one.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. .
Edited on Mon Dec-24-07 01:38 PM by burythehatchet
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Thanks for the Corporatist Catechism: "All Customers Are Crooks"
Clearly, you believe that human beings are out to "sap the vital juices" of the perfect corporation, from which All Blessings Flow.

Ave!

:puke:
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. OK, I guess we could try pretending that bank fraud doesn't happen

maybe that will work.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I've seen bank fraud, stock fraud, and government contract fraud - FIRST HAND.
ALL of it wearing the cloak of corporatism. All of it. The reason corporatists see so much "evil" is mostly projection. As a former corporate auditor, I've seen enough.



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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. When the "ends justify the means" and the ends are profits ....
... there is no limit on the Bhopals - human suffering and death in the name of "cost consciousness."
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
15. mostly i agree with everything you say -- except i'm not a consumer.
oh i buy -- some things i'm forced to buy -- and some are pleasure.

but i never, ever think of myself as a consumer.

which is something that leaves me feeling very resentful when i have to ask my doctor about this or that medication -- r shop for insurance when my financial situation changes, etc.

any way -----
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Metta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-24-07 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. Corporatism is how Mussolini defined fascism.
fyi.
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