I just finished watching a documentary about the saga of Elian Gonzalez

[CatWoman]

and that Miami family had and has a lot of nerve.

A bunch of camera hogging, theatrical kidnappers. That's all they were.

Thank Goddess that child went back home to his REAL family.

[Pawel K]

1. I was young when all that happened so maybe there is something I am missing but...

I will have to disagree. You would have to be naive to believe that the child will have a better life in Cuba than he would have had here. Some of you take living in this country, or any other modern western country, for granted and that's a real shame.

[CatWoman]

4. um, excuse me

but since when is the United States the sole authority of who "should" live where?????? And furthermore, it is the US's place to snatch a child away from a RESPONSIBLE parent????

[Pawel K]

14. I never said anything about who has authority to do what

like I said, I was young at the time, I don't remember all the things that happened. I am simply telling you that life here is better than life in Cuba. From what I do recall nobody in the US government kidnapped him, his own mother brought him over here. That's how much they wanted to live here, she risked her life and her sons life to get here and ended up dying for it.

[treestar]

53. It has an asylum law

And children, via a guardian, can ask for asylum like any other litigant.

They may be denied. But they should be able to ask.

Regardless of whether or not you like their family members.

How do you know his Cuban family aren't bigger assholes?

This was about the law, not your emotional state.

[CatWoman]

60. well, the law prevailed, didn't it?

regardless of who was the "bigger" asshole.

[Crunchy Frog]

11. Yeah, I do think a kid is better off living with stable, caring, responsible parents,

even in a poor and undemocratic country, then with a bunch of raging psychos in a wealthy "free" country.

I suppose you also think that rich people in this country should be free to kidnap at will children from poor families. After all, they would surely be able to give them a "better life". :eyes:

[Pawel K]

16. How do you know his parent in Cuba is stable, caring, or responsible

the kids mom gave her life to bring herself and him here. You think she would have done that if her life was stable?

And as I said above, nobody kidnapped this kid. His mother was the one that brought him over here and ended up giving her life in the process.

[CatWoman]

18. oh please!!!

all his mother was doing was chasing dick.

give me a break!!!

[Roy]

86. Richard Who???????

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[CatWoman]

92. Roy, sweetie!!!

:hi:

[blondeatlast]

19. He wasn't fainting 3 times a day on TV, sleeping with the kid and letting him lick his

face, or hiding with him in a closet at 3 PM refusing to give Elian over to authorities.

The father HAD to be far more stable than that psychotic, drama-queen filled family.

[Crunchy Frog]

31. Since you were too young to know what was going on at the time, and I wasn't,

I can tell you that every aspect of his life in Cuba and his family there were minutely examined by the media. The father was the custodial parent at the time his mother kidnapped him (to chase dick as catwoman says). He was employed with a good job that gave him access to hard currency. The family lived in a nice home where Elian had his own bedroom with an air conditioner, which was more than he had with his psycho relatives in Miami. The father walked his son to school every day. The mother was a flake who sacrificed her own life and endagered he son's to chase tail.

Before you spout off about something, maybe you should do a little bit of research first.

[Pawel K]

34. First off, I did some minor research before I posted

I went streight to wikipedia and skimmed through it. I didn't see anywhere that said she did this to chase dick. When you say she was chasing dick why in the hell did she take her son with her? I am not disputing what you or catwoman said, I just have a hard time understand why she would do this.

[blondeatlast]

37. Well, Wikipedia--aren't you the savvy Googler?

Try to get the story from the non-Miami contingent. Big difference--and I happened to be an adult already when it happened.

But keep those precious memories handy--the neoCons will love you for it.

[Pawel K]

40. Did I trust wikipedia for all my info? No, I wanted to have a simple discussion here

I didn't attack anyone, the attacks seem to be coming my way. I asked you a simple question which you didn't answer. So please, I would still like to know this, do you know why the mother decided to take the son with her?

[blondeatlast]

45. See post 43--and non-Miami based media. nt

[uppityperson]

46. Actually, wiki says mom stole him, took on boyfriend's boat, most died.

Which is quick summary of how he got here and what chasing dick means. Oh yes, I was an adult when it happened, remember it well and teaching the other poster who wasn't is a bit fun.

[blondeatlast]

50. Perhaps he's still too young to

be told what "chasing dick" means. But she sure was doing just that.

[CatWoman]

54. I've chased more than my share in my day

but I never took my kid with me :rofl:

[blondeatlast]

85. LOL! nt

[uppityperson]

57. But his name was Lazaro Munero, not "dick". I'm so confused.

yup.

[uppityperson]

43. Why did she take her son with her on such a dangerous trip?

Where most the other adults died? Aha! The boat was operated by the mother's boyfriend. That is what I see as the reason for risking her child's life in this manner.

[Pawel K]

51. I don't get it, but why take the kid?

I'm not understanding why she couldn't just have left with her boyfriend alone.

[uppityperson]

55. What do you think? And what are you basing that on?

Was she sooooo concerned that she stole her son and took him on a very hazardous trip? Or was she a selfish person who didn't care what laws she broke and what danger she put him in? Just to give a couple extremes. What do you think and why?

[Crunchy Frog]

52. Check out this link.

http://www.albionmonitor.com/0004a/elian.html

Crucial to finding an answer is knowing more about a Cuban man named Lazaro Munero. He was Elizabet's boyfriend -- not Elian's "stepfather," as he is identified by groups that want to keep the boy in the U.S. (MSNBC also mistakenly uses this ID).

Most of the available information on Munero comes from two sources only: a feature in the April 23 issue of NY Times Sunday Magazine, and an 11,000 word report in Granma, the official newspaper of Cuba's Communist Party. While the Cuban newspaper might be expected to stink of bias, the Times story also is suspect; much is made of the great-uncle's resistance to Castro in the 1960s, but no mention at all is made of their more recent legal woes, as described in the section below. But about Munero, both sources agree: He was a hustler with a reputation for brawling and violence.

Nicknamed "El Loco" apparently for his volatile temper, Elizabet met him at a nightclub four months after her breakup with Elian's father. Munero was 22, six years younger than her. A high school dropout, his work history included stints as an unlicensed taxi driver, a waiter, and sometimes selling beer and pop to tourists on the beach. He had already spent over a year in prison for robbing a tourist, and maybe additional time for chopping off someone's finger. "He was tough, maybe hardheaded (and) a hustler," one of his uncles told Miami New Times. "He was troubled."

It's not definitive, but it's at least a different perspective than the one you've been exposed to.

Tell me, what do you know about the "fisherman" that was hanging around all the time?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

89. At the time of the Elian incident, my church in Portland was sponsoring

a Cuban emigre, a genuine political dissident.

She was very disdainful about most of the Cuban boat people. "They don't care about freedom," she scoffed. "They just want to shop."

[CANDO]

96. You're telling me the living father has no right to raise his child wherever he chooses?

The mother died trying to get here with Elian. I feel bad for her. Did she do so against the wishes of her spouse? This may have been a kidnapping on her part. What if your spouse took off with your minor child and went to Europe, died in the process, and the Europeans refused to let your child come back to you? After all, they live better there than here. Your argument is very weak.

[blondeatlast]

17. You have to be naive to think that Cuba is the rat's nest you are led to believe--

and apparently buy.

I've traveled quite a bit. I love the US but it isn't heaven by any means.

But if you enjoy the Kool-Aid, drink up. I won't stop you.

[Pawel K]

27. Did I use the words rat's nest? I dont believe I did

You traveled a lot? Wow, thats great. Have you ever been in Cuba? Have you ever lived in Cuba? If you haven't lived in Cuba have you ever lived in a country where the average household income was below $150 a month? If you haven't then I don't think you have a right to be criticizing me about my world view.

[blondeatlast]

36. How much do you pay for your health care? College education?

I take it you get the Kool-aid for free, though.

Drink up. Here, have some more.

[Pawel K]

38. I got free health care living in communist Poland and right after communism fell

I would still rather live here with no healthcare than there during that time with healthcare. And my father and mother who both lived in that situation far longer than I had would be saying the same thing. So with all due respect, I don't think you have a right to be criticizing my world view as I already stated. Instead you should revise the way you see the world as you seem to be implying that because someone has free healthcare and free education they are instantly living a good life. Are they living a terrible life? Absolutely not. But I would love to see you live like that for a year and then come back here and preach the some bullshit about how good it was.

[blondeatlast]

44. So what's Castro done that was so evil since the fall of Communist Europe?

Please--expand your horizons. You looked it up on Wikipedia--a site widely discredited for having mom-objective information.

And get thisw: I was an ADULT who witnessed that; you admit you were a kid. That father's pain was my pain. You were a kid. What did you know about what was really happening?

Oh, right, I know--Wikipedia. :eyes:

[Pawel K]

47. You are changing the subject here

Did I say Castro has done anything evil? I told you that living under communism sucked and more than likely still sucks. You say you are older and you know more about what happened in 1999, cool, I believe you. That's why I posted questions to you above, I'll trust you on your information. But trust me when I tell you something about communism, because I lived under it and it's effects for around 10 years of my young life while my parents lived under it their entire lives.

[Djinn]

91. not a good comparison

Poland post Walesa (which I'd have thought made you close to my age but never mind) and Cuba circa 2000 don't make for apples and apples comparisons.

[Pawel K]

93. I lived there during Walesa, my family moved here in 1994

And I can't say for sure say that Cuba now compares to that situation in Poland back then but I have not seen any evidance to believe otherwise. And if its anything like it then the quality of life totally sucks there.

[MiniMe]

88. I think that the point that most people forget is that Elian and his father

became celebreties in Cuba, and Castro would want to show off how good Elian and his father have it.

[CatWoman]

100. Elian had it good even before this happened

he was in a very small minority that had their own room. Air Conditioned at that.

[KT2000]

24. Yes - you are misisng

a lot. You should watch the documentary.

I remember the father questioning the superiority of the US. He said that in Cuba, his son had healthcare but not in the US. Sounds like he is a responsible father.

[Pawel K]

29. I wouldn't mind watching the documentary

do you know which program the OP is talking about and possibly where it aired? Thanks.

[KT2000]

72. Yes

Catwoman posted this in post#48
Hope you still have time:

http://times.discovery.com/tv-schedules/special.html?paid=141.15116.52966.0.0

[Pawel K]

80. I have discovery times but its not on right now like its supposed to be according to that site.

Thanks for the link, I will set my DVR to look for it and when it comes on I will be sure to watch it.

[malaise]

58. That kind of thinking takes some level of arrogance

Please define a better life.

[Pawel K]

65. You want me to define a better life?

Sure.

- Living where you have the right to access the internet freely without censorship.
- Living on more than $150 a month
- Living in a country where the entire infrastructure isn't crippled
- Living in a country where the nightly news isn't controlled by the government.

I could go on and on and on and on but I have better things to be doing right now.

[uppityperson]

68. Yeah! like living somewhere you didn't have to worrry about

your noncustodial parent kidnapping you and endangering you.

How about
-living where you have the right to safe affordable health care
-living in a country where the nightly news isn't controlled by the government

are you saying Elian Gonzales's father lives on $150/month? And this is comparable to living on $150/month in the USA?

[proud2BlibKansan]

63. His father lives in Cuba

What right did anyone have to take him away from his own parent?

Besides, we know for sure he's getting better health care in Cuba. They also have a higher literacy rate than the US.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LanternWaste]

106. Much like a lot people take living with their own father for granted

"Some of you take living in this country or granted..."

Much like a lot people take living with their own father for granted... and that's a real shame, too.

[Hippo_Tron]

2. There would have been no Elian saga if we'd end the sanctions and normalize relations with Cuba

I think that many people hoped Clinton would take steps in the right direction. Instead he signed the Helms-Burton Act into law.

[Bobbieo]

5. Cat Woman - I watched that thing go down and you are correct.

Communist or not Elian is better off with his father in Cuba than with that greedy bunch of relatives in Miami.

[CatWoman]

8. i think they were in it for the money more than anything

and all the uncles were drunks and addicts.

[flyarm]

49. then you understand nothing of the cubans in Miami..many who risked their lives to get out of Cuba..

especially the older ones..

one family who happens to be friends of my hubby and i .. the woman was snuck out of cuba, the husband was already here playing a national sport before the country was closed ...she was raped 14 times the night she was allowed to escape..while she was pregnant..they have very long memories!..and not pleasant memories.

and they are very proud people.

and still love the land they had to leave..many still have family there now.

there is no amount of money that would satisfy what they have lost ..in their beloved nation..that is no longer theirs to live in.

fly

[CatWoman]

66. those are not the deranged people I saw on my television screen

who paraded that boy before the camera all times of the night, and who coerced the son to make that disgusting video tape.

[Crunchy Frog]

69. Too bad that so many loonies in Miami

have acted in such a way as to so discredits even legitimate stories of persecution like your friend's. Too bad also about the American politicians who indulge and encourage that sort of behavior.

[uppityperson]

70. You are talking "cubans", CaWoman is talking Elian Gonzales' people.

Some cubans are that way, yes. Some are not.

[mitchum]

101. Or so they say...just like all of the other horror stories from the "poor Cuban exiles"

If anyone understands the power of lies and propaganda, it's certainly the Miami Cubans. In fact, it's so powerful they have been able to hijack American foreign policy for decades. To hell with their Batista-loving asses.

[Crunchy Frog]

3. I remember when that happened. I just absolutely couldn't believe what I was seeing.

I was on my knees thanking God when that little guy was finally rescued out of that psychotic hellhole.

I remember that screetching harpie 2nd cousin of his. I also recall the Cubans in Miami burning American flags in the aftermath of Elian's rescue. The whole thing was the first indication to me that there was a very serious screw loose in this country.

What was the documentary and where did you see it?

[CatWoman]

6. yes, how could we forget that crazy fainting witch

of a harpie, Marislysis (sp?).

What a loser.

She actually thought the child was hers.

[Crunchy Frog]

13. She was absolutely nuts!

Wasn't she hospitalized for "nervous exhaustion" something like 8 times while she was in possession of the boy? And what about that creepy "fisherman" Donato Dalrymple? The one who used to share a bed with Elian and have him lick his face. :puke: The one who was hiding in a closet with the boy at 3:00 in the morning when they came to rescue him.

God this is bringing up some traumatic memories. :)

[CatWoman]

15. among other things, Donato was a lying loser to boot.

he fabricated the story of rescuing Elian -- it was his cousin who did the rescue.

[CatWoman]

12. oops - my bad

it was on Discovery Times: http://times.discovery.com/tv-schedules/special.html?paid=141.15116.52966.0.0

[blondeatlast]

7. But isn't his story just the perfect example of so-called "family values"

right-wingery?

Mom leaves Communist country, taking kid unable to give consent with her, she dies, he survives, his anti-Commie extended wacky right-wingery family puts up "valiant" fight to prevent kid from reuniting with what muat have been a terrified and dejected father--all in glorious living color, 24.7 on the cable...

And still--the American government forces were made to be the bad guys.

It's a perfect wet dream for the lower-functioning RWingers.

[CatWoman]

20. I'll never forget that hurtful, insulting video the Miami family made

in which the child publicly scolded his father, demanding to stay in Miami.

[blondeatlast]

25. For being psycho wackjobs, they certainly "knew" how to manipulate the media.

Pretty sure they had help. Without professional manipulation, they would have come off to the world the way you, I, and several others see them--as scary, manipulative goons.

[CatWoman]

26. four letters: CANF

[blondeatlast]

33. Yep, my thoughts exactly. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

90. But there was also a more candid video made during Elian's sixth birthday party

(where the Cuban exile community showered him with gifts, including, as I recall, two cell phones--just what every six-year-old needs, right?), when a plane flew overhead and he shouted something in Spanish. I could tell it was something about a plane. The news report said that he shouted about wanting the plane to take him back to Cuba. The relatives claimed he said no such thing.

[Crunchy Frog]

95. I remember seeing the actual clip at the time.

He said, in Spanish, "I want you to take me back to Cuba." It was very clear cut.

[WolverineDG]

98. That's what he said

I was in Australia at the time & they aired that clip on the radio. My friends back in the US never heard it. Go figure.

dg

[NashVegas]

9. That Reminds Me: Elian II

Did you read about the bizarre settlement? The father receives full custody, but has to remain in the US until 2010, and the foster family receives visitation.

Smells like a set-up to me.

[CatWoman]

21. Crisco - you've lost me. What settlement?

:shrug:

[NashVegas]

35. Sorry, Here

http://www.local10.com/news/14774418/detail.html

MIAMI -- A Cuban girl at the center of an international custody case will be given to her biological father, under a settlement approved by a judge Tuesday.

The settlement was reached last week. Under its terms, Rafael Izquierdo and his 5-year-old daughter are to remain in the United States until 2010, during which time her foster parents will have regular visits with her.

"It allows the father to have the custody of his child and yet it does not destroy the relationship that the child has had with her custodians during her time in the United States and, primarily, with her brother," said Jason Dimitris, an attorney representing the Florida Department of Children & Families.

The foster parents -- former sports agent Joe Cubas and his wife, Maria -- cared for the girl and her half brother after their mother tried to commit suicide when she emigrated from Cuba to the U.S. in 2005. The Coral Gables residents have since adopted the girl's brother and wanted to do the same with her.


Long story short: girl's mom wins the immigration lottery; some fiend talks her into marrying him and bringing him along; fiend deserts her at the airport; she tries to go to family, ends up desperate, tries to commit suicide; gives daughter up to foster care .. there's more, try a search on the dad's name. The US gov't tried to have the father declared unfit, and when that didn't work, they tried to deny him custody.

[CatWoman]

39. damn!

thanks for the info :hi:

[NC_Nurse]

10. I agree wholeheartedly.

There was no legal reason to take the child from his father. What a travesty that whole
thing was. He was a pawn of the family, sort of like Terri Schiavo.

[frogmarch]

22. The Miami family was trying to cash in

on the situation. They made me sick. So did the Americans who voiced their support for this band of hooligans and thought Elian should stay in America.

[CatWoman]

23. careful - there's one in this thread

:eyes:

[frogmarch]

28. tough! :-) nt

[sailor65]

30. You know what I find the most ironic?

The fact that when it happened, the SWAT team that went in to get him so he could be sent home was treated like scum by the RW'ers because they were carrying out the orders of the govt at the time. The POS's on the RW side villified those guys to no end, plastering the famous "Bared Teeth" photo at every turn, and the officers were doing what had to be done. The RW called them "Jackboot, Brownshirt, Thug, etc.."

Fast forward to now, and all over America there are men and women on those same uniforms, STILL doing what has to be done, but because the clown in Washington has (R) next to his name instead of (D), this site is full of POS's who villify police every chance they get, every time some issue comes up with ridiculously sketchy information, all over DU I see "Jackboot, Brownshirt, Thug, etc.."

Although refreshingly enough I see the occasional lucid "Voice" here supporting those who still protect and serve.

Just sayin'

[CatWoman]

32. With the king of jackboot thugs, Tom Delay, leading the pack

[sailor65]

61. And wasn't he the one

comparing Janet Reno to the Devil?

[Crunchy Frog]

42. I remember that the family went around and kicked their own doors in

and broke various household objects so they could claim that the "jackbooted thugs" had done it, but photographs taken at the time of the rescue showed the doors and objects to be intact at the time of the rescue. They would do absolutely anything to try and score a propaganda point.

[sailor65]

62. I remember all sorts of threats

about what they would do to anyone trying to take "Little Elian" from them. That's the environment the officers had to walk into, yet for all the restraint they showed they were made out to be monsters anyway.

edited for brand x spelling.

[A HERETIC I AM]

56. Actually, the SWAT team didnt go get him "so he could be sent home"

They went in to that house to take him into custody because the family had ignored a LAWFUL COURT ORDER directing them to hand the boy over to his father.

It might be a minor point, but i think it is important to remember that the family went through all sorts of legal maneuvering to avoid complying with the judge that ruled against them. The SWAT guys weren't sent there until it became obvious that the family was not going to do what they were told to do by the court. They lost every single case and motion they brought, if i am not mistaken.

[uppityperson]

59. Thank you. eom

[sailor65]

73. Yes, I think you're right

about that detail of the team's mission, I oversimplified it somewhat.

But I think my original point remains valid.

Remember the long editorials about the team leader with his "Finger poised on the trigger, putting the child at risk?" when his finger was clearly OUTSIDE the trigger guard? :mad:

[A HERETIC I AM]

74. Yes, of course. It WAS overblown because the officer in that famous picture...

This one:

Is obviously dressed in full riot gear and looks intimidating as hell. But again, he and his team members were there to execute an order that had been blatantly ignored by the family and they also perceived a threat from the family.

Nevertheless, i agree 100% with the way Reno handled the entire situation and it astounded me that the so-called "family values" crowd wanted so desperately to keep the kid from re-joining his father.

[sailor65]

78. Yeah, that one

boy, some of you folks do research FAST!

Yes, the family had repeatedly made threats against anyone who might come for the boy.

[uppityperson]

75. This picture?

[sailor65]

77. Yup, that's the one

and it went on ad nauseum.....about how he risked the kid's life and blah blah blah. Any ifiot could see the precautions he was taking.

[uppityperson]

79. seems riskier to have taken him on a small boat like his mom did.

but that's just me. Looks like I scared off the poster up above. oh well.

[sailor65]

84. Yeah, just a bit riskier!

which poster did you mean?

[AlCzervik]

41. Did you rent it and can you tell me the name of it?

i would definitely want to watch that, that case :nuke:

[CatWoman]

48. Discovery Times - Elian Gonzalez: Prisoner of Politics

http://times.discovery.com/tv-schedules/special.html?paid=141.15116.52966.0.0

[Crunchy Frog]

64. Hope somebody will put it up on youtube

since I don't currently have a TV.

[CatWoman]

67. what do you know?

it is on You Tube!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uv1_F7WSMw4

[Crunchy Frog]

71. Yeah!

:woohoo:

[AlCzervik]

76. Thanks!! I checked my cable and the doc isn;t on here.

[lumpy]

82. Thanks for the youtube post. I was one of so many that were

happy that Elian was reunited where he belonged, with his father. The child would have spent many years of confusion, bewilderment, and eventially distrust if he had been prevented from being with his father. The Miami Cubans that were involved in this fiasco exhibited how little respect for the laws and lack of allegience they have to this country.

[Catherine Vincent]

81. Those folks with the INS were heroes!

I will never forget how they rescued that poor boy from his Miami relatives. Janet Reno rocked as well. It was the first time flowers were sent to a politician spontaneity.

[lumpy]

83. I shudder to think what the outcome would have been if this

had happened under Dubya's right wing administration.

[Beetwasher]

94. Was The Name Jerry Wiener Mentioned? I Knew Him VERY Well

He was the pediatric psychiatrist assigned to Elian's case.

Brilliant man, who unfortunately died of brain cancer a few years ago.

[CatWoman]

102. so, you came in this thread to name-drop???

:hi:

:loveya:

[Beetwasher]

103. Yup, I'm A Big Shot

Didn't you know that? :evilgrin:

:loveya:

So???? I would hope they mentioned him, he did some outstanding and important work on that case and reported directly to Reno and the Big Dog. Just lookin' out!

[devilgrrl]

97. I remember these Tom Tomorrow cartoons?

[CatWoman]

104. I never saw those

I'm spitting iced tea all over the place!!!

:rofl:

[devilgrrl]

105. Aren't they a crack-up?

It was one of the few issues my rightwing brother and I agreed on.

[mainer]

99. Whatever happened to Marisleysis and the fisher guy?

A bigger bunch of loonies I never saw.

I followed the whole saga from day one till its end. That was one issue I thought Gore failed miserably at -- siding with those nutso Miami cousins. Janet Reno was right on.