How similar are the two parties? Generally speaking, of course.

[redqueen]

Some here feel the parties are like night and day. Some think they're barely distinguishable from one another.

Of course there are exceptions... but generally speaking, for the sake of discussion, how do you think they are too similar, or too different if that's what you think?

For example... IMO the parties are WAY too similar with respect to fiscal policy. They're much more different in social policy, but I'd personally still like more difference (equal rights for GLBTs). They're also very different in environmental policy... but again, I want more. I want raised CAFE standards, not Ethanol (pork). I want electric cars NOW (GM killed them, remember?), not fuel-cell vehicles someday.

What do you think?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

1. Rather than simply looking

at the politicians it is more useful to look at the systems that are in place. Institutions and organizations which remain even when politicians come and go.

When people just argue for some figurehead they're ignoring the lobbyists, careerists, fund-raisers, etc. who are really the bulwark of both parties.

[redqueen]

2. But don't some politicians want to end the lobbyists and fundraisers?

I know there aren't many politicians who openly speak of removing the money from DC (federal funding of elections and all that)... but they are out there.

[Orwellian_Ghost]

6. Oh definitely

Kucinich and Waters would be two examples. There are a few others of course but these people aren't allowed anywhere near the center of power. They could be thought of as ornaments that entice us into thinking the meaningful change we wish to see must be channeled into the conventional mechanisms. It's the perfect steam valve.

[redqueen]

9. So that means you don't think those changes can be implemented?

[Orwellian_Ghost]

22. What changes do you speak of?

I have to go now but I'll check back later. Perhaps an example would be useful.

In any case the phrase is something like, "The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results."

[redqueen]

27. Well how about just closing the revolving door

between the WH and K-Street?

How about just make lobbying illegal? Or at least restrict it to a very heavily regulated and thoroughly transparent process?

[Wapsie B]

3. I think if we could do away with corporate financing of elections

we'd see these policy differences come to the forefront. That going after the same corporate $$ is what makes many see the two parties as just the same song, different verse.



Nominated.

[redqueen]

5. I agree that's the biggest problem... legalized bribery. (nt)

[ProSense]

26. Here is the ultimate

campaign finance reform bill, a decade old and desperately needed.

[LoZoccolo]

4. It's an objective question that can be verified with the raw data of voting records.

Something that proponents of the Big Green Lie overlook.

[redqueen]

7. Voting records include so much BS they become meaningless.

What is the "Big Green Lie" and who brought it up?

[LoZoccolo]

14. "Facts are stupid things." - Ronald Reagan

The Big Green Lie is the idea that there is little or no difference between the two parties.

[redqueen]

17. Instead of ranting about your pet peeve... how about telling me

what you think the big differences are?

I'm trying to help all sides reach some common ground with this thread, and don't appreicate your attempt to turn it into a pissing contest.

[LoZoccolo]

20. I don't think that reproductive choice is a small issue, for instance.

I wouldn't dismiss it as "gonadal politics" the way that Nader did.

[redqueen]

25. I recognize your obsession with Nader is powerful.

But I am asking you nicely to discuss the two major parties, and not veer off into Nader-hate. OK?

Reproductive choice is obviously a huge issue... this is an area where you see lots of difference and I agree with you.

Thank you.

[unpossibles]

11. what is "the big green lie"

<confused>

[LoZoccolo]

16. See #14. n/t

[hfojvt]

18. "not a dime's worth of difference" n/t

[redqueen]

19. It's a distraction. Clearly there are big differences in many areas.

I don't appreciate this disruption.

[unpossibles]

8. they are alike enough to keep me motivated to try to change things

and different enough for me to vote Democratic.

The differences - separation of church and state, privatization, unequal rights- are strong enough to make me never want to vote Republican. yes, the Democrats are sometimes not a LOT better on those issues, but they are better. They may not fight to create equal rights, but they also do not fight to actively create unequal rights either.

And frankly, I have a hard time with fiscal conservatives - they are willing to sell people's rights down the river if it means lower taxes for themselves. That is shameful, imo. Taxes are like going to the dentist - I don't like paying them, per se, but I see their value and necessity for a functional society.

[redqueen]

15. There's no chance I'd ever vote for a conservative...

for the very reasons you cite.

[Perry Logan]

10. I think there's a stark disagreement between the parties on the uses of government.

I hasten to say that I, like most of you, would like the difference between the parties to be much bigger. And I agree that election reform is essential for democracy.

[redqueen]

23. Thank you!

I appreciate your recognizing that I'm not a Big Green Meanie here to disparage Our Very Good and Honorable Dems.

*sigh*

[mac2]

29. Difference between parties

Today there is little difference because all too many aren't of a party but of big frat club to steal for themselves. They aren't public servants or even care about the Constitution.

Seems to me that all too many of the Republicans want to be royals and steal from the people. You're on your own citizens they keep saying. Where's my benefits and pension for life the Congress ask. There is no large group of citizens more on the "public dole" than those in DC. Shouldn't they pay their own health care, start saving for retirement, and stop using private jets for travel? Take pay cuts to pay off our debt while we are at "war to save civilization"?

It is not a political agenda they seek but office for themselves. They don't even care about the mandate by the majority of the voters. They ignore it and seem to want to destroy everything this country has built for democracy over the last 200 years.

They certainly aren't of the "right stuff" to represent us in DC. Jail should be for many of them.

[hfojvt]

12. I think the parties became way too similar on fiscal policy

due to Bill Clinton and the rest of the DLC. Plus the popularity of the Reagan tax cuts has had Democrats running scared and Republicans pounding on that issue ever since.

Dean, or Michael Moore, sorta started the theme "take our country back" but before that happens we have to take our party back. Between the defeat of Dean and the coronation of Hillary I feel like it is not my party any more, and the differences are being blurred deliberately by our standard bearer.

[redqueen]

28. I'm betting that most of us can agree that fiscal policy is way out of line

with what most in the Dem electorate would like to see.

[mike_c]

13. not nearly different enough....

That's especially true WRT foreign policy, where along with environmental policy America's footprint on the planet matters the most. Or America's boot heel on the neck of the planet, as the case may be. They both represent greedy imperialism.

I think this question turns on the distinction between philosophical differences and political/leadership differences. Philosophically, the democratic party is quite different from the republican party-- it's able to attract liberal Americans SOLELY because of that philosophical distinction. But in practical terms, the political leadership of both parties serves other masters than the people, for the most part the same masters. Corporatism, the corruption of power, and personal greed are the order of the day for both parties' leadership.

Sure, I'd rather see dems in office than republicans, but I won't delude myself. Today's dem leadership is just another flavor of the same old same old.

[redqueen]

30. What an excellent point you make with respect to philosophy / practicality.

I for one appreciate your not deluding yourself. :)

[leftofthedial]

21. barely different at all

they both serve the same corporate-oligarchical system

the differences are important, but small

[redqueen]

31. It seems many on both sides are waking up to the danger of corporate rule.

We shouldn't have such a hard time convincing our elected Dems to get serious about putting a stop to it.

[Swede]

24. Gore would have taken the party to the left.

And he won the election,so I don't know why the party is so afraid of leaning that way.

[redqueen]

33. Do you really think it's fear?

I tend to think it's more often a matter of complicity. Money is a very powerful motivator.

[Swede]

35. Money does talk.

But so should getting elected.

[Traveling_Home]

32. THEY ARE ALL LAWYERS - THEY HAVE MORE IN COMMON WITH EACH OTHER THAN WITH US!!! nt

[mac2]

36. Lawyers in Congress are those..

Who don't remember the Constitution. They fail to honor their contract with us citizens (as implied by the Constitution). What law school allows them to become lawyers when they ignore it and are lawless.

Maybe the lawyer organizations should start removing their licenses and not allow them to trash our Constitution and rule of law.

[redqueen]

52. Excellent idea...

Dodd's commentary on how 1st year law students know what Telecoms did was illegal... we could extrapolate that to all the lawyer lawmakers in DC...

[TwilightZone]

34. I'm not sure how anyone can honestly say that there isn't much difference

Examples where the average Dem would likely differ significantly from the average Rep:

Abortion rights
Affirmative action
Education and Head Start
School vouchers
Environmental regs
Health care
Judicial appointments and oversight
Stem cell funding
Future of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid
Taxing the middle class vs. the rich

[redqueen]

37. Well I did say there's much difference in social policy.

So that covers most of what you mention here.

However, regarding Medicare, for example... I'm pretty fed up with the excuses about why they won't move forward with the Medicare for All bill. They won't even try. I don't know if it's true for every bill... but for it seems they ask around and if they aren't guaranteed it will pass, they let it die in committee. I'm fed up with this being the case. Getting that bill on the floor for debate will get the idea more publicity, which IMO would garner more support, which would (hopefully) sway some votes... hopefully enough. I think it's an important enough issue to at least TRY. I understand that many disagree and are happy with the presumed failure and refusal to try.

As for taxes... I would love to agree... but the hedge fund loophole was protected by Dems. So... it could be said that it's only a few bad apples... but those bad apples seem awfully effective.

[TwilightZone]

40. That wasn't intended to be targeted at you personally

I was generally speaking of the "there's no difference" crowd that claims that there is so little difference between the parties that they are indistinguishable. I just can't see how anyone can believe that.

You were, of course, specific about where you see similarities and differences, and I largely agree with your assessment.

Re: taxes - in that instance, you may be correct, but I also think that it's extremely unlikely that a Democratic president and Congress would have shoved through giant tax cuts for the rich in the middle of a "war". The impact of those tax cuts will be felt for decades.

I just don't think any Democrat would have been irresponsible enough to do that. That's one area where I see a huge difference between the two.

[redqueen]

43. Yes, I agree that there is still substantial difference on tax policy.

As you said, those huge tax cuts which overwhelmingly benefit the top percentage would not have been an issue if not for pukes...

[TwilightZone]

48. And, yet, many on DU in '04 said that there was no difference between Kerry and Bush.

Skull and Bones and all that.

What generally seems to happen is that people latch onto an issue, and if there isn't a substantive difference between the parties on that particular issue, they extrapolate it to the entire party. The party doesn't meet my needs on my pet issue, so there must not be any difference on anything else, either.

Examples of that abound on DU. There may even be some in this very thread.

[redqueen]

50. Yup... irrationality abounds.

No shortage of that, ever.

However, to be fair... the "our Dems are doing a great job! shut up you debbie downers/bitter betty's!" cheerleaders are also being irrational, in their own way. :)

[TwilightZone]

54. I certainly agree with that.

Blinders seem to be readily available to people on each side of pretty much every argument. :)

[newportdadde]

38. Economically they are similar, social issues is where the difference lies.

Check out "Whats the Matter with Kansas?" for some insights into this. Basically both parties are viewed as 'the same' by voters economically, these voters then move on to social issues so they can at least win on some issue, a wedge issue.

What this country desperately needs is a POPULIST candidate who would come out against NAFTA, against the off-shoring/on-shoring of both blue collar and white collar jobs and against wreck-less fiscal policy which leads to speculation/bubbles like the current housing market and an inflation induced beat-down of people who live on a fixed income or are savers.

Instead we get more of the same pro-corporate nonsense while we see the middle class slowly loose ground and we chase our tails around over social issues which will more then likely never go anywhere because that is their purpose, to keep us all staring at the bright light.

[redqueen]

41. Well we do have a candidate like that...

but he's marginalized, ignored, mocked, considered naive & ineffective.

It seems there is little reason to hope for better, from where I'm seeing things.

[Robbien]

39. Oh come on, there were only TEN senators against giving spying immunity for telecoms

Ten out of a hundred.

There are only about twenty senators AGAINST giving media giants more rights in consolidation.

The so called Democratic party member Reid only honors GOPer holds on bills and ignores Democratic holds on bills.

Dems weakly and meekly go up and put forth a progressive bill and then proudly loudly proclaims to one and all that it is "caving" and giving Bush everything he asks.

In everything they do and say, the majority of the Democratic party is mainly a GOPer clone.

[redqueen]

44. Thank you.

This is why I am confused when some react with such disgust and hostility to anyone who points out this type of collusion.

[ProSense]

47. It's 10 out of 50 if you're talking Democrats. They voted against advancing the bill, more oppose

immunity. For example, Kennedy voted to advance the bill, but is opposed immunity.

[Robbien]

57. We are talking about one party rule here, so it is a hundred

A hundred out of which only ten are willing to oppose immunity. In my count of ten, Kennedy is one. He stood proudly supporting Dodd yesterday.

[IndianaJones]

42. they're different...and yet similar. nt.

[redqueen]

45. You got your chocolate in my peanut butter.

:hi:

[IndianaJones]

46. one way they're similar...too much vanilla. not enough chocolate or peanut butter.

know what I mean?

[redqueen]

53. You know what... I... I think I do!

This worries me. :scared:

[EFerrari]

49. There is the vehicle and then, there's the tenor.

The two parties are very similar in what you could call the vehicle. But the tenor is entirely different.

And sure, powerful people will try to manipulate both, and they will succeed to a degree.

But the Democratic Party is not founded on authoritarianism or on exclusion (bigotry). The Corporati have made inroads into the Party, but they haven't been able to kick out the founding principles. Mostly because of mouthy people like you. :hug:

[redqueen]

51. Thank you.

:hug:

[ulysses]

55. great differences in some areas - reproductive rights and others.

Somewhere between "less" and "insufficient" difference - in my book - in other areas, particularly in trade policy and the military.

[redqueen]

56. Thanks!

:hi:

:loveya: