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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 11:31 AM
Original message
Ohio Secretary of State confirms 2004 election could have been stolen = x-post
Ohio Secretary of State confirms 2004 election could have been stolen
kpete Dec-15-07 04:29 AM (damn!!) - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x487572

Ohio Secretary of State confirms 2004 election could have been stolen
by Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman Page 1 of 2 page(s)
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_bob_fitr_071214_ohio_secretary_of_st.htm

Ohio's Secretary of State announced this morning that a $1.9 million official study shows that "critical security failures" are embedded throughout the voting systems in the state that decided the 2004 election. Those failures, she says, "could impact the integrity of elections in the Buckeye State." They have rendered Ohio's vote counts "vulnerable" to manipulation and theft by "fairly simple techniques."

................

================================
This article stems from the following news:

Ohio Elections Official Calls Machines Flawed
By BOB DRIEHAUS - Dec 15, 2007 - http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/us/15ohio.html?_r=2&ref=us&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

CINCINNATI — All five voting systems used in Ohio, a state whose electoral votes narrowly swung two elections toward President Bush, have critical flaws that could undermine the integrity of the 2008 general election, a report commissioned by the state’s top elections official has found.

“It was worse than I anticipated,” the official, Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner, said of the report. “I had hoped that perhaps one system would test superior to the others.”

At polling stations, teams working on the study were able to pick locks to access memory cards and use hand-held devices to plug false vote counts into machines. At boards of election, they were able to introduce malignant software into servers.

Ms. Brunner proposed replacing all of the state’s voting machines, including the touch-screen ones used in more than 50 of Ohio’s 88 counties. She wants all counties to use optical scan machines that read and electronically record paper ballots that are filled in manually by voters.

She called for legislation and financing to be in place by April ................

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LakeSamish706 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. Watch the attached video for proof!
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. This is just the beginning, the forward focus on current machines.
In discussions with the Brunner Secretary of State's office, while cooperating with investigating the 2004 voting irregularities, I was informed that a primary focus was forward looking, on taking office immediately focusing on fixing the situation to ensure integrity of future elections.

This article reflects that aspect of the investigations, reporting on machines in use. In 2004 only 15.6% of votes were cast on e-vote machines, only 12% were cast on op-scan machines. Seven of 88 counties e-voted, 13 counties had op-scan voting, and 68 counties used punch card ballots with centralized county tabulation. As such, this report does not reflect the problems with three-quarters of the voting. That is the backward-looking aspect of the investigations, analysis of the voting using machines no longer in use.

The voting irregularities on punch card voting are equally alarming, if not moreso. Moreso because they were going on for a decade without detection, because they represent three-quarters of the Ohio vote, and because of the various simple means by which votes were switched. This study:

The 2004 Ohio Presidential Election: Cuyahoga County Analysis
How Kerry Votes Were Switched to Bush Votes
http://jqjacobs.net/politics/ohio.html



was ignored by Blackwell, and continues to be ignored by the United Stated Department of Justice, in particular the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the United States Attorney for the Northern District of Ohio. However, Ohio's Secretary of State Office under Brunner took an immediate interest in the results and in the methods developed by the study.

The study developed a new methodology to analyze vote-switching that would otherwise not be noticeable. That method is applicable to other Ohio punch card counties, races, and elections including in previous years. Anyone can use it to analyze any county or year for that matter. The Ohio Secretary of State makes official election results available online. The 2004 results are found at http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/ElectionsVoter/Results2004.aspx.

Using the new descriptive statistical methodology (a no margin of error method), the Cuyahoga County Analysis found in a subset of 166,953 votes, one of every 34 Ohio voters, the Kerry-Bush margin shifts 6.15% when the population is sorted by outcomes of wrong-precinct voting. From the study:

Further Study

Another potentially useful aspect of the election for determining numbers of cross-votes, particularly those not evident using results for one race, might be statistical comparison with down-ticket races using cross-voting probability sorts such as those herein. Precinct level pairing of cross-voting in diverse races could be analyzed. Comparison with 2006 results may reveal patterns of change correlating to vote-switch probability patterns in 2004.

This study has not considered the history of decisions that created the Cuyahoga County election. Given the irregularities noted, the decisions in that process, particularly organization of precincts, ballot orders, and locations, and why these factors combined as they did to Bush's advantage, should receive official review in the light of the post-election results evidencing cross-precinct voting. Because the situation resulted in election results different from the votes cast, an official inquiry into all aspects of the process should take place. In particular, the strong correlation between minority populations and both non-vote percentages and cross-voting also requires a civil rights investigation.

Given the number of switched-votes in Cuyahoga County, results in other Ohio counties and elections should also be analyzed for irregularities wherever more than one ballot order was employed at a punch card voting location. The same needs to be accomplished for past Ohio elections. Also, statistical analysis may reveal the patterns produced by switching ballots to precincts with different ballot orders to effect vote-switching.

I did not anticipate the complexities of Cuyahoga County's election organization, the resultant amount of work required to fully and accurately answer the questions I first posed, and the evidence of irregularities. The number of Ohio Kerry votes switched to Bush votes remains to be fully quantified. While a precise answer is unattainable, statistical analysis can provide a useful answer. Cross-vote outcome probability sorting allows quantification of the impact. The number is far more than I initially thought, and more than would be expected under random circumstances.

January 27, 2007. At this writing, analyses, study, and editing of this article continue. Nonetheless, this material needs to be available for the new semester. I will continue updating. The spreadsheets display various analyses not yet presented herein. Focus, in particular, on the highlighted cells for the most pertinent results. More charts are also found in the spreadsheets.


Conclusions

In 2004, the Ohio Presidential voting results do not accurately reflect voter intentions. In Cuyahoga County, the election was flawed and the design appears to have been manipulated. At locations with several ballot orders in use, many votes were cast by voters crossing precincts, hence counted other than as intended. At precincts with the highest Kerry support, the percentage of uncounted votes is inexplicably high. The obvious inference—intentional manipulation produced concentrated undercounting, cross-voting, and vote-switching in areas of highest Kerry support—cannot be ignored in the face of the evidence and statistics. The possibilty that ballots were switched to different precincts, post-voting to effect vote-switching, must also be considered.

Many individual ballots resulted in a vote-switch, a two-vote margin difference from the intended result. Switched-votes cast for Kerry and counted for Bush had twice the impact as their actual occurence, by each subtracting one from Kerry and adding one to Bush. Bush and Kerry votes also went uncounted as non-votes or were miscounted as minor candidate votes. A high percentage of all Cuyahoga County votes were cast at locations with multiple ballot orders. The manner in which precincts and ballot orders were combined increased the probability of a Kerry cross-vote being recorded as a Bush vote. Quantitative analyses of candidate votes and of non-vote percentages evidence the cross-voting and the patterns of cross-voting and vote-switching.

Sorting locations and precincts to their specific cross-voting probability subsets reveals intended voting patterns and the degree of cross-voting. The combinations of ballot orders and precincts at polling locations enables quantitative analysis of cross-voting and vote-switching. The complexity of the election's organization—the great number of combinations of ballot orders and locations—also makes the task of determining the number of cross-votes laborious and complex. While that process is not concluded herein, the procedures so far taken in this study define the process. This process may be more easily applied to other Ohio counties given less-complex ballot order combinations.

Any official inquiry into the 2004 irregularities needs to be independent of political interests, and monitored by political interests. The fact that the irregularities discussed herein are known and have been reported to multiple jurisdictions and law enforcement entities, and yet no official inquiry into the election has occurred, illustrates the broader failure of the current election process and judicial system to respond to election fraud and irregularties or to hold officials accountable for their actions. Polling places should never have been arranged such as in Ohio, with multiple ballot orders and separate casting and counting devices. Measures are required to prevent the possibility of similar future flawed election designs. To this end, control of elections should be removed from competing political interests and actors to politically-independent processes, with at the least, independent and political oversight of elections.

Many more conclusions remain to be made as study and analysis continues. The 2004 Ohio election ballots must be preserved to allow further investigations. If this study illustrates anything, hopefully it is the degree to which this problem has not yet been fully considered, and the complete failure of officials to respond. During an era of new voting system technologies and reforms, careful consideration of past errors may prove useful in avoiding their repetition and in preventing future abuses of process and power.

The 2004 Ohio Presidential election remains to be fully investigated. The blatant evidence of irregularities and unfairness of organization continues to be ignored by the authorities who have been informed of the evidence.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. OHIO SoS Report: EVEREST Voting System Review = sos.state.oh.us
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/info/everest.aspx

EVEREST Voting System Review

STUDY: VOTING SYSTEMS VULNERABLE

COLUMBUS, Ohio – Ohio’s electronic voting systems have “critical security failures” which could impact the integrity of elections in the Buckeye State, according to a review of the systems commissioned by Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner.

“The results underscore the need for a fundamental change in the structure of Ohio’s election system to ensure ballot and voting system security while still making voting convenient and accessible to all Ohio voters, “ Secretary Brunner said Friday in unveiling the report.

“In an era of computer-based voting systems, voters have a right to expect that their voting system is at least as secure as the systems they use for banking and communication,” she said.
THE REPORT

The Evaluation & Validation of Election-Related Equipment, Standards & Testing report, known as EVEREST, is a comprehensive review of voting systems revealing startling findings on voting machines and systems used in Ohio and throughout the country. The Ohio study tested the systems for:

- risks to vote security,
- system performance, including load capacity,
- configuration to currently certified systems specifications, and
- operations and internal controls that could mitigate risk.

.....................
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. recommend
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
4. Republics are screwed if she follows through with this
cheating is the only way they can win in Ohio. Fortunately, everyone hated Blackwell.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Send thank you's to Rep. Bob Ney (R-OH, Prisoner No. 28882-016, HAVA author)
Rep. Bob Ney (R-OH, Prisoner No. 28882-016, HAVA author) and HAVA author, gave America e-voting ....

Send correspondence to:
Rep. Bob Ney (R-OH, Prisoner No. 28882-016, HAVA author)
c/o Warden Jive F. Turkey, Sr. :rofl:
.....

ACVR's OHIO Report, Rep. Bob Ney (R-OH, Prisoner No. 28882-016), & Jive F. Turkey, Sr.
Jun-22-07 http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1159656&mesg_id=1163192

OHIO ELECTION ACTIVITIES AND OBSERVATIONS
Report to the United States House of Representatives
Committee on House Administration, Representative Robert W. Ney, Chairman
Submitted by The American Center for Voting Rights, March 21, 2005

.....................


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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. and what will we find out about the 2008 election in 2011????
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Good point. But, we can find out about a lot of elections past right now, if we work at it.
And that might be invaluable in 2008!

The investigations need to begin. One reason we have 50 Bush-gates, I suspect, is to keep investigators so clogged up they never get to the one that matters, how the junta was installed in the first place.
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. As John Conyers' committee already established, no shit.
Edited on Sat Dec-15-07 12:15 PM by BlueIris
People, if you haven't yet read "What Went Wrong In Ohio," hook yourself up with a damned copy and get informed.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Preserving Democracy: What Went Wrong in Ohio = From the Conyers Report
From the Conyers Report: http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/ohiostatusrept1505.pdf

"... we find that there were massive and unprecedented voter irregularities and anomalies in Ohio.
In many cases these irregularities were caused by intentional misconduct and illegal behavior...."

"... it is imperative that we examine any and all factors that may have led to
voting irregularities and any failure of votes to be properly counted."

Preserving Democracy: What Went Wrong in Ohio
Status Report of the House Judiciary Committee Democratic Staff, Jan. 2005.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. Duh!
I knew that in November 2004.

When history is corrected people will discover that George Bush and Dick Cheney never won an election -not fucking one.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-17-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
34. It is interesting to look back in DU to the post-election threads about Ohio.
Deja Vu - 2004 Cuyahoga DU Posts are now a unique retrospective
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x259620#263679

The investigative aspect of Ohio 2004 happened right here on DU and was
a collaborative online phenomena unlike anything ever before.
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 01:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. Funny comment on CNN the other day
It was where Blitzer talks to the other three reporters. They were talking about the steroid scandal in baseball, and one made the comment that it was the wrong message being sent to children, with regards to cheating.

Jack Cafferty then pipes in with a comment, how if you cheat, you could even become President.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Consensual reality evolves "if you cheat, you could even become President."
albeit slowly, but it does evolve. We all play a role in informing that consensus, even if only by little asides like that. We also inform journalists right here on DU. However, there is nothing like direct communications. I have 2,700 journalist contacts now, and I keep adding more.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
12. "critical security failures ...technical controls insufficient to guarantee a trustworthy election,
The academic team, made up of faculty members and students from Cleveland State University, Pennsylvania State, the University of California, Santa Barbara, and the University of Pennsylvania, said systemic change was needed. “All of the studied systems possess critical security failures that render their technical controls insufficient to guarantee a trustworthy election,” the team wrote.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/15/us/15ohio.html?_r=2&ref=us&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
14. Brunner: Ohio's vote vulnerable = The Plain Dealer
Brunner: Ohio's vote vulnerable
The Plain Dealer - cleveland.com, OH
Mark Rollenhagen December 14, 2007 08:49AM
http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2007/12/brunner_ohios_vote_vulnerable.html


Ohio's electronic voting systems could easily be compromised and touchscreen systems like Cuyahoga County's need to be quickly replaced by systems that use paper ballots that can be scanned and counted at central locations, Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner said Friday morning.

Brunner urged Cuyahoga County to begin replacing its touch-screen ballot system immediately, saying she would ask the state legislature to reimburse the county for the $2.5 million costs of making the switch in time for the March primary.

............

Brunner's major recommendations include:


• Eliminating statewide the use of touch-screen voting machines that record votes directly.
• Centralize vote counts of optically-scanned paper ballots rather than tallying them at precinct locations.
• Allow early voting at election day vote centers 15 days before an election.
• Require all August 2008 elections that involve only ballot issues -- and not candidates -- to be conducted by mail or in-person voting at county election boards.

===================
http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/0-1&fp=47643299c88a2403&ei=4VNkR7PzGoXc-wGkqe2XDw&url=http%3A//news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article%3FAID%3D/20071215/NEWS01/712150351&cid=1124857452
Report: Ohio Needs New Voting Machines The Associated Press http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/0-3&fp=47643299c88a2403&ei=4VNkR7PzGoXc-wGkqe2XDw&url=http%3A//ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h6y0nVXefzLWXOImRcDXQxW8LPxQD8THJNS00&cid=1124857452
all 134 news articles » http://news.google.com/news?q=brunner+ohio
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. Pee Dee now studiously burying the story
as is their usual MO.

They'll try to buy the GOP enough time to come up with a new strategy.

The latest local GOP talking point is that the "Dems insisted on electronic voting after Gore lost in Florida".
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Answer to R Talking Point is "Bennett is Guilty" of the Diebold debacle PLUS
HAVA belongs to Bob Ney and his Jive Turkey gang of felonious deceivers.

PD also put out a talking points memo against the Arnebeck call for forensic inquiry,
almost word-for-word with what appeared elsewhere, so obviously coming from DC.

I e-mailed all the PD reporters I have contact with and complained,
saying each knew the OP ED was patently false. Not one of them replied!
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
16. K and R
I am very glad to see Brunner getting rid of DREs. And I hope Marc Dann sues the Corporations for selling crappy equipment to the state of Ohio.

Just give us paper and pen to vote and take a week to count if needed.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I also hope there will be more forensic investigations from the Ohio AG.
There is a 5-year statute of limitations on federal crimes, I believe.

Anyone know what Ohio's is re 2004 conspiracy to fix an election?
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
18. COMMENT. Does this prove anything? Regarding 2004, that is?
Edited on Sat Dec-15-07 07:03 PM by L. Coyote
Realism is important in most activities, especially politics if you want to have any impact.

A good example of realism is checking for water before diving into the deep end of the pool.


Take a deep breath if yo think this is a huge revelation re: 2004. It is not.
First, it is important to remember that Ohio 2004 was 3/4 punch card voters. This is not about punch card voting.
Second, the fact that voting machines are insecure does not mean security was breached.

If anyone wants to focus on irregularities in Ohio 2004, I suggest starting with real evidence.
Handily, it is right under your nose, a few clicks away, in the official voting results.

The exit polls are interesting supportive, inferential evidence, but they are not proof.
Go after proofs if you want to make a difference, and analyze the votes. Exuberance is no substitute
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. I think Bush set a bad example about realism in politics
For years he has been doing this thing -- well, a bit like your relative by name, Wile E. Coyote. You know how Wile E. Coyote can run in midair for seconds at a time, until he looks down? Bush and his folks figured out that if they never looked down, they could persuade lots of other people to go along with him for years. Kewl. Somewhat overrated, but still kewl.

So some of his opponents want a piece of that. Ditch the inconvenient fact-checking, forget critical reasoning, just go with the flow. In some ways it's very efficient. But when one runs into people who have the habit of looking down, then things can get ugly.

Anyway -- right, it doesn't make much sense to treat this report as about 2004 (when most Ohioans voted on punch cards), and anyway, there is work to do.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. On Friday afternoon this last week, they looked down. What a howl.
They had to call the crash car. The new AG is obstructing justice already.

I'm calling it the "Friday Afternoon Judicial Holocaust"
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dogindia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-15-07 09:15 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R
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MsMagnificent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
21. So we crazy "DUmmies" were right...
...yet AGAIN! :applause: :toast:

Seems to me we've been right in our prognostications
--barring the conspiracy theorists (not to disparage them, but irrefutable proofs of claim for either side are probably impossible)--
most of the time.

Has anyone --a statistician, mathematician, etc.-- kept track of predictions here and their accuracy rate? ...would make a fascinating study.
As would a comparative failure rate for such sites as Freeperworld et. al.


I'd put money on predictions
rather, educated guesses
posted here on DU over any other bet. No question about it.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Has anyone --a statistician, mathematician, etc.-- kept track of predictions here
About 3,000 journalists monitor this domain, I suspect.
It is the place to get the instantaneous response to instantaneous news.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
22. I'd like to heave a big ol' F-U to everyone who said it would have to take
a massive conspiracy involving too many people, and I'd also like to toss in a gigantic "WE TOLD YOU SO" for good measure.

Will the naysayers and deniers actually bother to listen next time? Methinks not.....

"At polling stations, teams working on the study were able to pick locks to access memory cards and use hand-held devices to plug false vote counts into machines. At boards of election, they were able to introduce malignant software into servers."

Which was exactly what the deniers told us all couldn't possibly happen.

Who the hell were these people and why didn't/couldn't they see the writing on the wall at the time?
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Will this sink in? Move a ballot to the wrong pile, Kerry -1, Bush +1
Do that 60,000 times and you change the margin 120,000.

A switched vote is the only vote that counts TWICE!!!
Minus one and plus one!!!!!!!!
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. kerry didn't listen
he was a raw deal.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. How would re-whipping that tired old mule help anything today?
Edited on Sun Dec-16-07 01:32 PM by L. Coyote
Hasn't this debate been worked over a thousand times? It just incites divisiveness.
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. not really
he was never held accountable for lying to us about making sure every vote was counted. I imagine the next coproate candidate will do the same. :eyes:
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-17-07 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. He also is the one Senator that went after the Contra-cocaine issue.
Boy, did the criminal Rs fear Kerry. That was one reason they had to fix the election, to keep the cover up going.

George Bush Sr. May Face Charges: Conspiring to Kidnap and Murder Political Activists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2459135&mesg_id=2459135
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
28. Yep
Just like 2000.
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-16-07 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. That is the crucible. Dec. 12 is Junta Day, living in infamy sadly.
A problems with having professional covert operatives to fix elections
in other countries is that it can also undermine our own democracy.
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