BBC documentary "Uncover Mosque" is beyond jaw-dropping.

[Hoping4Change]

The BBC programme, Dispatches filmed most of "Undercover Mosque" with a hidden camera. The imans, including an African-American convert, are explicit in their revolutionary plans for Britain and the world. A Saudi woman who emphatically disagrees with Islamic fundamentalism, states the program's central thesis: Saudi Wahhabist teachings have been exported throughout the world, "from Kosovo to Jakarta and to the United States and Great Britain, supercharged with oil money … It's like a wave of teachings hitting the shores of Western countries."


One, Dr. Ijaz Mian, at the Regents Park Mosque in London, official seat of "moderate" Islam in Britain, talks openly about his desire to see Saudi-style religious police operating in the United Kingdom. He urges Muslims to wait until they are sufficiently numerous to make Britons surrender: "Hands Up!" Another predicts jihad will be waged against all nonbelievers and a British Islamic state established, with the flogging of drunkards, chopping off of thieves' hands, and jihad against non-Muslims all on the menu. "You have to live like a state within a state until you take over," he says. Women are "deficient," and should be marriageable before puberty because Muhammad himself married a nine-year-old. The animus against homosexuals and Jews is particularly virulent, meaning not merely condemnation, but explicit calls for their (eventual) murder.


These are huge mosques, not tiny ones hidden in laneways. This is is must see.


http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=2668560761490749816&q=uk+mosque

[msongs]

1. the James Dobsons of the muslim world sort of nt

[Hoping4Change]

2. Compared to these imans, Dobson is on the far left, I kid you not.

[mzteris]

6. Far left? I think they're remarkably similar.

"Religious fundamentalists" are all pretty much alike.

Arrogant. Controlling. Self-centered/self-serving. Hate women. Hate everyone else that's not "like them". The more "like them" you are (same sex, same race, same color, same religion, same warped pov's...) then the more they can "accept you".

They're all totally batf'ing crazy, imho.

[Hoping4Change]

16. I understand what you're saying but i'd love to know if you feel

the same way after watching it. These guys are demanding the dismantling of democracy, denouncing it as unIslamic, advocating establishing s state within a state. An thee views are being voiced at what are considered mainstream mosques. The first Muslim to be made a lord attends one of these mosques and praises it.

[mzteris]

28. considering

Dobson and his ilk would like nothing less than a theocracy for the US - I still think they're very much cut from the same cloth.

[Toucano]

80. It's the same as Dobson.

Fundamentalist Christians also have no interest in Democracy or respecting the rights of the minority. The militia movement is decidedly fundamentalist.

Until you see a secret camera filmed movie of their inner-workings, I wouldn't be so quick to conclude that the Islamo-Nuts are any different than the Christo-Nuts.

[tenshi816]

104. They're not different at all.

The extremists in each group are as crazy as the extremists in the other, and the scary thing is they all think they're right (and righteous).

I grew up around Christian fundamentalists in Georgia, including many in my own family, and I've encountered a lot of Muslim fundamentalists since I moved to the UK in 1986.

I've been told that one day I will be required to wear a burqa by one Muslim man, and by another that he won't look non-Muslim women in the eye because we're inferior and no better than animals. I've been told more than once (by Muslims) that it's OK for Muslims to kill non-Muslims who refuse to convert to Islam.

At various times in my life, I've been told by fundamentalist Christians that I'm going to hell because I don't go to church (or not often enough), or because I had sex while I was unmarried, or because I showed cleavage, or because I drink alcohol, or because I don't believe in the Rapture or for any one of a thousand other reasons.

The extremists in both groups are deluded, demented, and dangerous and they give both religions a bad name. I'd like to see all the fundementalists of whatever stripe rounded up and forced to live together in a Big Brother house for a while to see what would happen.

[depakid]

125. Try Jesus Camp

http://www.jesuscampthemovie.com/

It's equally as creepy.

[WinkyDink]

37. This threat is very real, it is extant, it is moving forward. The Dutch politician Van Gogh

was assassinated because of it; Christian missionaries in Indonesia are murdered because of it; civil disorder over Sharia law "courts" and the "right" of civil courts to determine the law for Muslims in secular Europe occurs because of it; etc.

Is it only Christianity and its followers that aren't "P.C." topics?

[DemExpat]

50. I concur that this threat is very real here in Europe.

Prominent Mosques and schools here in The Netherlands have been shown to harbor these goals IMO.

DemEx

[mzteris]

91. didn't read very carefully, didja?

That's not at what I said nor implied. Please re-read my posting carefully.

I think ALL religious fundamentalists are whack jobs and are a threat to all society. Whether they're Baptist, Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, or any other stripe of religion you can think of that has those that INSIST that their's is the ONLY way and anyone else's belief is mere hogwash. It's all hogwash IMHO.

We'd be better off without ANY religion than the drivel these so-called "holy *men*" spew.

[and-justice-for-all]

66. Your assesment is correct...they are identical...nt

[The Stranger]

39. His type is only far smarter about how they "minister" in a secular society.

Like Fundamentalist Christianity's close kin, White Supremacy, once you are behind closed doors, the euphemisms melt away and the real indoctrination takes place.

[ntesla]

3. Could be more propaganda

I read somewhere about right wingers taking over BBC,.. it looks like they succeeded.

[Applan]

9. This wasn't a BBC documentary

It was produced and aired on Channel 4, a UK channel completely independent of the BBC.

http://www.channel4.com/news/dispatches/article.jsp?id=1066

[SeveneightyWhoa]

10. Yeah, its propaganda.

All documentaries are.

The question is, does it represent reality; is it true. I think you'll have a hard time arguing with the video evidence here.

But hey, thank god Bush went into Iraq so that extremism like this is extinguished!

..er.. yeah. Move along, buddo.

[Hoping4Change]

11. Give me a break. The shitload of hate is coming directly from the mouths of imans.

[JohnLocke]

34. No (nt).

[Duppers]

177. you're saying they concocted this whole video?

NUTS!

[MnFats]

4. yeah, it ain't helping matters. trouble is....a lot of people will use this..

...as the basis to judge all muslims and arabs, the vast majority of whom are regular people and NOT crazy.


watch Dobson et all eat this up

[SecularMotion]

5. Huge Mosques?

Like Mega churches?

[Hoping4Change]

13. I'm no fan of Xhristian wackos and their mega churches but

what is stated by these imans take the cake.

[SecularMotion]

17. You may want to read this thread

See any similarities?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3151017

[Hoping4Change]

20. All I can say is watch the video. One big difference from Xhristian

wackos is that Wahibism is being financed by Saudi oil money.

[me b zola]

47. And our tax dollars are funding the radical christians

via faith based initiatives.

[and-justice-for-all]

65. Which we buy plenty of.....

...And if it was not us it would China.

Faith-Based inititives are funding extremist Xtian agendas...

Both which are working towards the same goal: eliminate the other, dominate the world.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. Progressive Muslims

have talked about the Wahhabist problem for a long time. As prejudice increases towards all Muslims, it only strengthens the Wahhabists, because they preach that the West hates Muslims, and so Muslims must fight for their survival as a faith, which, btw, is the only reason Muslims are to fight according to the Qur'an.

[Hoping4Change]

14. The documentary interviews a Sufis scholar and other other moderates who

are very concerned about Wahabis.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. Thanks for that information

being a Sufi initiate, I've been aware of this problem for quite a long time. I still recall at one regional gathering when, at the bookstore, a friend picked up a book of Hadiths (sayings of the Prophet) and read one where the Prophet predicted that the greatest threat to Islam would come from within Islam, and from the area where Wahhabism originated....it may also interest you to know that the original Wahhab was a Sufi who became angry with the senior teachers would not make him a shaykh. He cut himself off from them, and went to others who were happy to see their prejudices reinforced by this religious "teacher". Now Sufis are persecuted in Saudi Arabia and Iran, their shrines and meeting places destroyed.

[Hoping4Change]

26. I had once asked a coworker who was Muslim whether he was

Sunni or Shia and he got so angry and told me that all Muslims are the same but having been friends with Muslims who followed the Aga Khan I knew this wasn't at all the case. On one hand I understand the "offical" position that all Muslims being brothers are the same but in reality they ar not. Those who follow the Aga Khan do not subscribe to an extreme idealogy and I think Wahabis hate them even more than they Sufis. It seems to me that Muslims should start idenfying themselves by the particular strain of Islam they follow. It seems to me that extremists benefit when these differences are not openly acknowledged. (btw the coworker was from Saudia Arabia.)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

59. Well, the problem with that is

that one of my daily prayers says "Raise us above the distinctions and differences which divide us". :)

I don't see that the extremists benefit when the differences are not openly acknowledged, maybe because the actions of an individual shows if they are extremist or not. If one is tolerant, does it matter what color hat they wear, what form of zkr they do? If one is intolerant, won't they find something wrong even with those who appear to wear the same hat or perform the same zkr?

What I like about Islam is that I am accepted. In Islam, I can be a member of more than one Order. I am made welcome at a mosque, and no one asks for religious credentials. Even in disagreement, Muslims treat each other with a respect that I find refreshing, and something that I didn't find when I was a Christian.

[cool user name]

35. Can you supply me with some good links regarding the differences within Islam?

Regarding Sufi, Wahabi, Shi'a, Sunni?

I'm woefully confused, and worse, ignorant, though I am trying to educate myself.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

58. I'll try

and tell you a little now. Shia and Sunni are main branches. I really don't know of good links for them. Wahhabism is a fundamentalist form of Sunni Islam. Sufis can be Sunni, Shia, or universal--it is called the mystical sect of Islam. http://www.sufiorder.org will get you to the home page of my Order (Sufism is initiatory and one belongs to one or more Orders). If you go there, you can find out a bit about Sufis--I would suggest you listen to the webcast of our leader, Pir Zia Inayat Khan, as you will get a flavor of where Sufis come from--plus he speaks English.

[cool user name]

61. Thanks! ... I'll check it out.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

113. What fraction of Muslims would you categorise as "progressive"?

That according to the Qur'an the only reason Muslims are to fight is "for their survival as a faith" is an interpretationg I'm fairly sure is not shared by all Muslims, and I suspect held by only a minority, although I'm not well informed on the subject.

[rockymountaindem]

8. If Britain and Europe as a whole has such a problem with this issue

why do they still admit immigrants from Muslim countries? It seems hypocritical to worry about the increasing influence of Muslims, some of them radicals, and still let thousands and thousands into Europe year after year. It is not unlike the problem of illegal immigration in our country. Either we should make room for them in our society and take steps to legalize their presence and streamline them into our economy, or we should stop their coming and deport the ones who are here. All this running around saying "somebody oughta do something!" isn't getting us anywhere, nor is it helping the Europeans.

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. You can't just refuse someone on the grounds of religion

can you? I'm amazed you have even suggested it. Please read again and think what you wrote. You're either suggesting keeping someone out on the grounds of belonging to a huge, widespread religion; or because they come from the same country as lots of people who do. It's a medieval attitude.

[rockymountaindem]

32. It's not a medieval attitude

I'm not saying it's a position I adopt, either. I can't adopt a position on this matter really, because I'm not part of the situation and I won't be effected by its outcome. All I'm saying is that there seems to be no action in either direction, either to foster integration of immigrant groups and fight extremism, or to keep the extremists *out* one way or another. Instead people just worry about the problem indefinately. It's a paradox... if there's a problem, why do nothing? And if there's no problem, why worry about it?

[LeftishBrit]

45. There is a lot of action here to encourage integration and fight extremism

Often not the right actions, as you'd expect of the idiotic Blair government; but actions.

There are also policies to keep out extremists. Moslems do not equal extremists!

You seem to be implying that unless one comes up with an immediate simple solution, one is taking no action at all. While I wouldn't call that mediaeval, it does smack a bit of the instant-fix, tough-for-the-sake-of-it attitude that has led to the election and maintenance in office of the Bush, Thatcher and Blair governments.

[ohio2007]

64. ? the cleric was preaching segregation,keep children out of kuffar schools

unless you didn't listen to that part of the video. he was a pretty fascinating look but on the positive side, they didn't catch him on tape saying " death to the sons of pigs and monkies". He just said, beat your wife with an open hand and don't allow your children to mingle with non believers.
general BS. I would like to hear what is preached in the Saudi mosques during the friday sermons. That is what the CH 4 / BBC program failed to do.

[LeftishBrit]

89. Sorry - when I said 'here', I meant 'here in the UK', not here in the video

I was talking about actions on the part of the government, and by mainstream Moslem leaders.

Obviously, the sort of people portrayed in the video are religious nuts who think everyone else is a heretic, and don't believe in integration.

[Hoping4Change]

134. Its hard to regard them as religous nuts when they are preaching

in what are regarded as moderate mainstream mosques.

[LeftishBrit]

40. Should we also not allow Christians into the country? After all, until recently there was lots of

violence and terrorism in Northern Ireland, due to longstanding political-religious conflicts between Catholic and Protestant factions; and this sometimes spilt over into other parts of the UK. Though much improved, this problem hasn't ended and could always start up again. So should we admit Catholics and Protestants who might encourage it to start up again? Or who might be followers of the likes of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, who thought 9-11 might be God's punishment for America being too liberal?

People who advocate hatred, violence or terrorism in the cause of their religion can already be refused admission or deported. Why discriminate against an entire religion? Especially as a high proportion of Moslems in the UK were born here!

[rockymountaindem]

44. I'm not saying that at all

All I'm saying is either people need to stop being alarmist or actually do something about the problem. A lot of the Europeans I talk to at school (in Canada) complain about the Muslim populations in their home countries, but nobody actually wants to stop more people from coming over. So why complain? I'm just saying there's a double standard. For the record, if I were British, I'd let them in because I don't have a problem with immigration. It just seems to me that there's a lot of talk and no action when it comes to "preserving European heritage" or whatever it is I hear a lot of these Europeans say to me.

[LeftishBrit]

48. I don't complain about the number of Moslems in my country

I admit that many right-wingers and people influenced by the tabloids do so; but they *do* recommend keeping Moslems, and not only Moslems but all 'immigrants', out. Sadly, there is racism and xenophobia to be found here as in many places, and the tabloids whip it up.

I don't think the programme here was complaining about numbers of Moslems, but about the extremist attitudes of a minority. Just as we complained - and more than complained- about the extremist attitudes and actions of the IRA and of the Protestant paramilitary factions; but this didn't mean that we wanted to cut numbers of Catholics or Protestants in Britain.

[Hoping4Change]

136. As Tallyrand said show me a priest and I'll show you trouble

though me an iman. Religion is at the basis of the Irish troubles. The problem with Wahabism is that it reviles the separation of church and state and the problem with your statement is that you fail to mention that secular democracy in the West has placed stric limits on religion. Granted religious bigotry exists but religious fundementalism is not given a green light in Western style democracies as it is by Wahabis.

[many a good man]

180. Religion is the basis of Irish troubles???

Oh brother!

[Anarcho-Socialist]

181. Yes n/t

[DemExpat]

51. Many people who switch to rightwing parties here do so basically to stop this immigration

from Muslim countries.

DemEx

[LeftishBrit]

55. Actually, to stop immigration from any countries (especially by non-whites)

While anti-Moslem prejudice does feed into the attitude, the hostility to immigrants and asylum-seekers preceded the current concerns about Moslems by a long time. In Britain, and probably in Europe generally, racial prejudice and general prejudice against 'foreigners' are more important than religious prejudice - though all forms of prejudice exist and are a problem.

[DemExpat]

57. I should have clarified - in The Netherlands.

I have lived here for many years and never detected any major aversion to immigrants until the Muslim population became more visible, demanding and less willing to fit into progressive and secular Dutch culture and society.

The Dutch were famous for their openness and tolerance.

No more, I'm afraid, :-(

DemEx

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoping4Change]

22. A outspoken progressive Canadian Muslim named Tarek Fatah

maintains the same position as yours. He recently had to resign as the spokesperson for a progressive Muslim organization after serious death threats that are now being investigated.

[Bronyraurus]

29. Hear, hear!

Well said, my man!

[Bronyraurus]

30. Why in the heck

was that post deleted?

[progressivebydesign]

15. Sounds just like the Left Behind crowd.

All religious fanatics are the same.

[Hoping4Change]

18. I wonder if you'd think that if you saw the doc.

[ohio2007]

43. I wouldn't want to be part of that wahibi crowd

If your not muslim enough, they label you a kaffir/infidel what not worthy of sudden death.

[Duppers]

178. hardly

" All religious fanatics are the same."

NO, they aren't. Some are much more violent.

I've heard a member of said group vow to kill a member of another religious group before they die...and that's here in the U.S.!! I kid you not. It's scared the crap out of me.

[Taverner]

21. This is why I think we should get rid of all religion

Seriously

[BreweryYardRat]

188. Just most of organized religion.

Organized religion just gives some people an excuse to vent their hate. Perception of those who belong to a different sect as less than human.

Un-organized Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc...is fine. And by un-organized, I mean when it's just a man, a holy book, and God. No churches, no congregations, no "people" vomiting hate from a position of perceived power.

Not that I'm a saint. I've been tempted to kill fundamentalist street preachers for spouting hate and plain whacked out bullshit, but I just exercise self-control.

***

Apologies for any incoherence. I'm tired.

[fujiyama]

23. I think it's somewhat naive

to view them as the exact equivalent of the Christian Right. This is not to defend the Christian right, which is also dangerous and destructive, but much less a global phenomon...The Christian Right is mostly relegated to America, and that too largely regional in power (mostly the South). Even though they share some prominent posts in federal government, they have not really got nearly everything they wanted. Also, while they have had influence on foreign policy, I'd say their role is still limited (I think the oil and gas/corporate interests have had a much greater influence than the religious right on Iraq) . This isn't to say there aren't similarities. Both are intolerant and want to establish theocracies in the name of their extremist beliefs.

With Saudi Wahhabiism, you have something much larger. You have several countries in the Middle East and Asia being indoctrinated with this particularly virulent version of Islam. It is also destroying Moderate Muslims, who are in many cases unable to speak out against the fanatics.

Of course, it's interesting to note that the Shiite Islam of Iran is mostly isolated to Iran, Iraq, and Lebanon. Yet, of course the administration (and many Dem politicians as well unfortunate) and media make them to be our biggest threat.

[IronScorpio5]

25. Well said

great post

[xchrom]

33. the christian right is extremely prevalent in africa

and growing in south america.

[ohio2007]

52. MSM seems to prefer covering Africa's problems in the predominantly

muslim areas. But they do avoid spinning any connections to islam as being a root problem

[xchrom]

54. ''arabic'' islam has the same problems re: africa as the west does.

they see black africa as inferior -- and the north as theirs.

when it comes to africa -- everyone takes their turns kicking her, ignoring her, exploiting her, abusing her -- but rarely doing for iher, living with her, working with her -- as it is.

[ohio2007]

69. funny thing, I never hear about muslim relief organizations receiving billions of those oil profits

from the Arab rulers into feeding the masses living in African deserts. You think that would be the propaganda message they could preach? butter not bullets.

Just saying that I've never heard much about our pay at the pump $$$ in a "spread the wealth" or " A rising tide lifts all Dhow's " speech comming from the other side of the barrel.

[Duppers]

179. hear hear

Great post, fujiyama!

I feel this has been a much neglected subject here on DU.

[IronScorpio5]

27. "Saudi-style religious police operating in the United Kingdom"

thats kinda scary.

[ohio2007]

41. The only religion allowed in Saudi Arabia is

that controlled by the House of Saud. I've listened to this guy and his mumbo jumbo. I can't believe women are not more vocal against the practice of Islam.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. Then stop financing the Wahhabis by driving two blocks in your

gas guzzler to pick up a carton of milk.

You can't complain about Islamic radicals and then finance them by refusing to cut down on fuel consumption.

[xchrom]

36. it seems to me that du has been talking about extreme wahabism for a long time.

but like dangerous christian fundies here -- the solutions are very, very long term.

they economic primarily -- spreading what economic programs that can reach the poor as best as possible and raise their educations levels.

out and out war will only drain america and weaken our foreign policy.

i understand your hair is fire -- but short of increased restrictions on immigration i can't imagine what you propose to do -- other than set more peoples hair on fire.

you are doing the work of the imams{and dobson and falwell, etc} for them.

[dailykoff]

38. RW scare progaganda circa 2003.

Looks like it still sells in the sticks.

[JohnLocke]

42. Umm...it's not "propaganda," it's video footage.

The evidence speaks for itself.

[ohio2007]

46. The "grand mufti" of Saudi Arabia is beamed into the mosque where

he speaks his form of islam. I'd prefer passing through Amish country then being told to stay out of the "muslim only" lane on a Saudi highway.

Discrimination seems to be a rule of thumb in the more harsh sects of islam

[dailykoff]

53. Of what exactly, when exactly,

in response to what events exactly, and in what language? Are they speaking English for example or is the "BBC" (evidently an incorrect attribution) translating it?

p.s. you're right, this isn't propaganda, it's hate speech geared toward the very gullible.

[ohio2007]

56. Are they speaking English ? Are they speaking English ? click on the link

And decide what you are listening to.

[dailykoff]

63. Who is speaking? Under what circumstances, when, where etc.?

Bullshit shows like this were all the rage four years ago so sorry if I don't drop everything to worry about another one.

[ohio2007]

70. A show on womens rights,gay rights,childrens rights has no place in the world today.

You had your fill four years ago or is it only the X-tian angle that must be the never ending soap?

Hey, I'm not bashing you opinion but I do know they are into head chopping infidel kufars.ie, One Hollywood actors words just the other day during an award show would have been all the proof needed to issue a fatwa death sentenceon another actor in Saudi Arabia
true or false?

[Bronyraurus]

73. Since you're too busy

defending homophobia and religious bigotry...

The speakers are Muslim clerics, speaking in clear English, at a mosque in Birmingham. Talking about killing homosexuals, women who won't wear the veil, and non-Muslims. Now how do you like THEM apples?

[IronScorpio5]

88. Exactly.....

seeing the UK under sharia law would be geared to the very gullible.

[rman]

99. Of course propaganda can never take the form of video footage

Everyone knows that.

[sufrommich]

100. Is it an elaborate production

with hired actors??I'm amazed at how many so called progressives will twist logic to explain away non christian deadly whacko religious intolerance and violence.Comparing the bible belt fundies to them is ridiculous.That kind of speech broadcast by a christian preacher in America would be considered loony fringe by the vast majority of Americans,in the same league as the nuts that protest at soldiers funerals.It's medieval religious intolerance,pure and simple and it's number of followers has no rival in the modern world.

[rman]

102. Islam extremism has a lot in common with Christian extremism;

women are second class citizens, not the law of man but the law of god should rule the land, complete intolerance towards other religions.

First of all that what's being said by the extremists in this docu is obviously Wahabist propaganda.

Moderate Muslims don't go to these mosques, and they are as much seen as the enemy by these extremists as Christians, Jews and atheists are.

Also I think there is propaganda in that it is made out to be (not so much in the docu but by the mass media in general) as though Islamic extremism is not a loony fringe. In fact this docu features several commentators who are moderate Muslims.

When it comes to Christianity we can judge based on personal experience just how wide-spread Christian extremism is. When it comes to extremist Islam we can only go by what the media tell us.
We only hear about extremists in our main stream media that are owned by the same corporations that profit greatly from the 'war on terror'. When was the last time we could trust the MSM to be impartial?

In order to hear the other side of the story you have to turn to the alternative media:


Islam: A Home of Tolerance, not Fanaticism
http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/views01/0924-09.htm

Media speculation since the horrific terrorist attacks on America has pointed the finger at Muslims and the Arab world, and that has meant ordinary citizens of the US and other Western countries becoming easy prey for anti-faith hooligans. Shame. Sadly, the latest horror to hit the US looks to have been caused by people of Middle Eastern origin, bearing Muslim names. Again, shame. This fuels more hatred for a religion and a people who have nothing to do with these events. This is why I want to explain some basic facts about this noble way we call Islam, before, God forbid, another disaster occurs - next time probably aimed at Muslims.

I came to Islam in my late 20s, during my searching period as a wandering pop star. I found a religion that blended scientific reason with spiritual reality in a unifying faith far removed from the headlines of violence, destruction and terrorism. One of the first interesting things I learned in the Koran was that the name of the faith comes from the word salam - peace. Far from the kind of Turko-Arab-centric message I expected, the Koran presented a belief in the universal existence of God, one God for all. It does not discriminate against peoples; it says we may be different colors and from different tribes, but we are all human and "the best of people are the most God- conscious".

Today, as a Muslim, I have been shattered by the horror of recent events; the display of death and indiscriminate killing we've all witnessed has dented humanity's confidence in itself. Terror on this scale affects everybody on this small planet, and no one is free from the fallout. Yet we should remember that such violence is almost an everyday occurrence in some Muslim lands: it should not be exacerbated by revenge attacks on more innocent families and communities.

Along with most Muslims, I feel it a duty to make clear that such orchestrated acts of incomprehensible carnage have nothing to do with the beliefs of most Muslims. The Koran specifically declares: "If anyone murders an (innocent) person, it will be as if he has murdered the whole of humanity. And if anyone saves a person it will be as if he has saved the whole of humanity."

The Koran that our young people learn is full of stories and lessons from the history of humanity as a whole. The Gospels and the Torah are referred to; Jesus and Abraham are mentioned. In fact there is more mention in the Koran of the prophet Moses than of any other. It acknowledges the coexistence of other faiths, and in doing so acknowledges that other cultures can live together in peace.

more..

[sufrommich]

103. Whole countries exist that are ruled

by islamic extremists!It's hardly "fringe" at this point.I'm not denying that moderates exist but are losing the upper hand in huge chunks of the world.To deny that is naive and dangerous.

[rman]

105. Why does the US govt support (some of) those countries?

Wahabism is Saudi state religion.

[sufrommich]

107. Good question.

But what does it have to do with my post?I would be perfectly happy to see an administration base it's foreign policy on human rights or lack thereof.Although,cutting off relations with oil producing countries is not feasible as long as oil is our main source of energy.

[rman]

109. The relevancy is that it points towards things being more complicated

than just the threat of radical Islam.

This is just one of many indications that apparently anything is feasible as long as certain economic interests are at stake.

For a long time it used to be support of RW military dictators in the fight against communism, where this support included illegal arms- and narcotics trade. Now it's support for the same religious radicalism and its militant groups that breeds the terrorism against which we fight - in both cases causing much misery and death.

[Hoping4Change]

137. You are wrong. Moderate Muslims do attend these mosques.

These are some of the largest mosques in Britian, they have been praised by politians as being the the home of moderation but the line the imans are spouting for PR purposes are contradicted when they are addressing their following when no non-Muslim is present.

[SweetGrass]

124. "Comparing the bible belt fundies to them is ridiculous."

Somebody finally said it. Thank you.

I have seen parts of this documentary. This is a sick and dangerous movement. Why its participants enjoy such a blind and loyal defense from progressives is a mystery to me.

James Dobson doesn't want to cut your hands (or head) off, friends. Be honest with yourselves, please.

[Lilith Velkor]

128. Pat Robertson wants to nuke my hometown. He said so on television.

And speaking of being honest with yourself, the notion of progressives having blind loyalty to Wahabi imams is a baseless smear, which suggests to me that you need to overcome a state of complete ignorance about progressive beliefs.

That is why you are here, is it not?

[SweetGrass]

135. Oh, pardon me.

I missed that. Does Pat Robertson also want to saw your head off? Stone your daughter to death because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time?

I must be as naive about his beliefs as you charge that I am about progressive beliefs. :sarcasm:

Anyone who believes Pat Robertson and James Dobson are the somehow the equivalent of our enemies within Islam is intellectually dishonest, in my opinion.

And, for your information, I was responding to the absurd defense of this sick and destructive cult that I have witnessed on this thread. Ignore it if you like; that is your prerogative. Just don't try to tell me it's not there. (And never did I say ALL progressives, as long as we're discussing baseless smears.)

[sufrommich]

142. Good post.

and welcome to DU.

[SweetGrass]

143. Thank you!

I've been enjoying your posts on this thread. :hi:

[Lilith Velkor]

162. Yes, you are naive about his beliefs

Do you really think it makes a difference to me if Pat Robertson wants to saw my head off or stone me IN ADDITION to detonating a nuclear device near my home, since the radiation would have killed me by then anyway?

Goddamn, but people are dumb when they want to freak out about something. Saying a religious movement is no threat to a government is not the same thing as defending it, for fuck's fucking sake.

[Hoping4Change]

138. The problem is that progressive Muslim are not standing up in mosques and

demanding retractions.

[Lilith Velkor]

144. Maybe they have other things to do

I don't know what all the Muslims in Britain are doing at any given time, I just kida thought that most of them are OK and some are total scumbags, just like every other demographic. :shrug:

My point was that extremists of both the Muslim and Christian religions would gladly see me dead or enslaved, and they are equally worthy of contempt to me, but the latter are more dangerous because they are in a better position to take control of my government. I should think that's fairly obvious, wouldn't you?

[Hoping4Change]

148. Your point is not obvious, Xhristians may want total control

but secular democracies are set up to separate church and state and in doing provide prtection to people who aren't fundie wackos. Wahabis teach against that separation, they call democracy "kuffurocracy". And given their prominent role in separate schools this is the kind of garbage Muslim kids are learning.

[Lilith Velkor]

158. Britain is less than 2% Muslim

Wahabis have as much chance of imposing a theocracy on the UK as the Scientologists do. Anyone to whom this is not obvious is fucking mental.

Have you ever heard of a film called "Jesus Camp"?

[CJCRANE]

165. It's closer to home than you realise....

if you consider where the Bush family fortune comes from: business dealings with the Saudi Royals, bin Ladens and Dubai royalty.

Also ask yourself why the RW tries to make everyone terrified of muslims but chose to attack a secular country (Iraq) whilst they make multi-billion dollar deals with all the other dictatorships and monarchies in the Middle East (except for Syria, which is another secular country and Iran, which is a rival to Saudi Arabia).

[JackRiddler]

187. the point perhaps...

is that the British video is not of broadcast statements, as you put it, but of non-public speech captured by an undercover camera (and later broadcast by the spies who caught these imams being themselves). So there is no comparison to the preachers of other religions on television, until you catch them unawares as well.

Do you really think there are none among the fundamentalist self-designated Christians or more garden varieties of racist who would not make identical statements about their objects of hatred in an unguarded moment? Well, I beg to differ.

In situations where they did not fear disapproval from their audience, I have heard some Christians advocate their version of sharia law for the US; more-than-some few Jews talking about the equivalent of extermination applied to the Arabs, especially those who happen to live between the Jordan and the Mediterranean; and a whole boatload of garden-variety white racists advocate the extermination of blacks or non-white immigrants - probably hundreds of the last. This being New York, I run into the secular racists and Jewish racists a lot more often than the Christian fanatics, who at any rate around these parts tend to be multiracia. But what exactly were these people I saw at Ground Zero holding up "God Hates Fags" signs? Who are these others who say 47 million babies were murdered in the US since 1973 and there must be justice against the perpetrators of this holocaust?

Please. I can't stand any of these people. The physical threat from aggressive Wahhabism may or may not be worse than other varieties of fundamentalist stupidity. Those who fear it should focus on clearing the Middle East of foreign invaders (that's you, fathead) and devoting the funds saved from a 50 percent cut in the warfare budget to developing an oil-free future.

[Odin2005]

68. Oh great, here come the PC police...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

111. From that well known RW propaganda organ the BBC...

And I'd be interested to know what definition of "The Sticks" you're using - the Beeb is based in London one of the largest cities in the world.

[muriel_volestrangler]

114. As established elsewhere, it's actually from Channel 4

though calling them 'right wing' is even funnier.

[agincourt]

49. Nasty shit,

It's like the "leaders" are enabling that stuff for more terrorism, so that democracy can be killed. Let in a vicious fanatical population, once they start killing people, than the sheeple cry for a "Big Daddy" like W was in the US. LIHOP radical islam into your country, that means democracy can be replaced by corporate fascism with cameras EVERYWHERE! One degenerate group helps the other.Works like a charm.

[Amused Musings]

77. This is the main reason radical islam must be stop

If these guys (I was genuinely horrified by what I saw) get more powerful, people are frequently happy to give up rights for more security. This has to be addressed before that point comes. They are fundamentally anti-liberal.

[and-justice-for-all]

60. Twisted sick fucks......

9years old?!! WTF! They believe that their jesus (muhammad) married a 9 year old, so its their excuse for themselves to practice child-molesting...thats some high moral they stand on isnt it?

I am a Gay Atheist who is "married" to a cop and we have some plenty of fire arms of our own and friends with guns too. So, when those wack-o fucks decided to start killing gays and non-muslims, we will be sending alot of them to paradise.

That video is a good enough example why religion is toxic posion and needs to be irradicated out of society.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

97. A couple of guys with guns?

Not much help against a rocket, an ambush, a bomb, a kamikaze. And, organizing your friends into a militia and sending folks to paradise might be interpreted as conspiracy and murder. Just sayin'.

Plus, if you have all this defensive weaponry, I'm guessing you don't live in England, where the general population has pretty much disarmed itself, voluntarily and by edict. There seems to be an aversion there to even carry a tiny pen-knife on your key-ring. So even if the general population needed to organize into defensive neighborhood militias, they couldn't be effective.

If "those wack-o fucks" decide to start killing gays and non-muslims (and muslims who are not right-thinking enough), they'll be well-armed, well-trained, well-motivated, and well-organized. It would not surprise me if some mosques in the U.S. already have armories in the basement (though I try to keep those ideas under my tin-foil hat).

[CJCRANE]

170. The CIA factbook

puts the muslim population of the UK at 2.7%.

It's much more likely that they will be oppressed by the majority population.

[kittykitty]

62. CNN now! Cristiane Amanpour reporting from London on radical Islam

The religious guy is saying Sharia law is coming to London, etc. Allah has given man authority over the woman, etc.

[donco6]

67. Yes, it's very interesting.

13% of British moslems believe the subway bombers were martyrs. That's a little scary.

[ohio2007]

72. You could say that polls results were not scientific

It depends on when they were asked and where they were asked. On the open street or behind the closed door mosque ?

I'm done with this thread

out

[ohio2007]

71. I mentioned just this point on another reply

What would the women of NOW say to Cristiane Amanpour if she interviewed them on just this point?

[IronScorpio5]

129. I saw that....

so the UK will soon have sharia law ??

wait till it comes to the US.....will be interesting.

[Swamp Rat]

74. I'm more worried about the Talibornagain.

[ohio2007]

75. two years and a wake up and he'll be gone

his nightmare tenure will fade unless people want to keep his memory alive as a crutch

[Civil war surgeon]

76. The Tallibornagain?

I lived in the south for 8 years, didn't go to church, drank, smoked, was single and I fornicated. I was not threatened with death, stoning, dismemberment, the girls I dated were not stoned to death, and get this, the women in the south are even allowed to drive.

I will take a hard core christian, born twice again over a mullah teaching shia law. Do tell how well the womens movement is progressing in Saudi Arabia? How about gay rights? Do you think the king has a progressive race integration program? If you love capitol punishment, that is the place to be though.

The muslims that believe those teachings want us all dead. After the jews that is but you either convert or die. I personally will be seeing how many virgins I can tie up comforting the newly martyred.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fooj]

82. Peace, my friend.

[Swamp Rat]

83. peace

:)

[fooj]

84. Oh Swampy...that graphic is BEAUTIFUL! It gives me hope.

Will ya post it on the Code Pink thread? It's perfect.

[EFerrari]

85. Funny, they didn't seem to want us all dead before we messed with their

emerging democracies.

If they do. Most of the time, I bet they wish we'd just go the fuck away.

But, that goes against the ruling orthodoxy and we can't have that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. Except these sermons aren't about 'wanting us all dead'

they're about wanting everyone in the world forcibly converted to Islam, with harsh Sharia law. And the preachers include a couple of American converts to Islam, a Jamaican, and an Australian. They're not reacting to Middle East politics - they think they're on "a mission from god".

[Civil war surgeon]

110. Yes

but if you do not convert, they want you dead. And if you are a jew, or homosexual, you will not be given the option of conversion. Comparing the religious right in this country to radical muslims is very sophmoric, and seems to be putting a political spin on this. Open your eyes, there is no peace with this faction of the muslim religion.

[Dorian Gray]

115. That's what bothers me...

they want to impose Sharia Law upon Britain and the rest of the world. It's frightening, and how do we fight against a creeping population intent on changing our laws and forcibly converting or killing us?

[mmonk]

93. Both are dangerous to a free society

[Warren DeMontague]

117. Uh, how about "neither"?

Is it possible, maybe, just maybe, that some of us heathen secular progressives might want to live in a country where people aren't beheaded for being gay AND women are able to get their birth control pills without some Jesus-drunk pharmacist holding their prescription hostage? That at the same time we're avoiding having our schools run by crazy mullahs teaching suicide bombing, we might also want to keep them from being run by school boards teaching bullshit about "Intelligent Design" and a 6,000 year old Earth?

Dig? They're not mutually exclusive. Theocracy is bad here and it's bad there. Calling bullshit on crazy fundamentalists abroad doesn't mean crazy fundamentalists at home get a free pass on shitting all over the rest of our rights.

And if you think Christian Extremists aren't capable of being "terrorists", you haven't been paying attention to who has been committing the vast majority of "terrorist" attacks in this country for the past couple decades.

Here are some names for you: Eric Rudolph. Timothy McVeigh. James Kopp. William Krar. Demetrius Van Crocker.

Any of them ring a bell?

And as for Saudi Arabia, if you have a problem with the way its run, I suggest you take it up with George W. Bush- he goes waaaaay back with the Family Saud.



Welcome to DU.

[haymark]

78. wow

All from the horse's mouth. I especially like marriage with the underage girls.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

81. That is terrifying.

If something isn't done, this will be a planetary thing. There are enough of them to take over the planet and put sharia law into place. It's scary as hell.
Duckie

[JCMach1]

86. You want freedom of religion, or not-- Imams are TIGHTLY controlled with what

they can say here in the Gulf. Their Friday messages are approved through the ministry... Consequently, they are mostly pablum... You would not see a message like that in the UAE... it doesn't happen...

Many South Asians in Britain were never allowed to integrate properly into society because of the racism and classism in British society. That bred resentment over time. Some have adopted a more radical stance as a reaction to that.

That doesn't make it right, but that is what happened.

[malaise]

90. This thread is fascinating

I suspect that to Muslims everywhere, watching bombs and depleted uranium on their fellow citizens is beyond jaw-dropping. I also suspect that watching your male children dragged off to Iraqi prisons or killed and left in the streets for no good reason except old testament slaughter is just as jaw-dropping. Watching the treatment of the Palestinians, Lebanese and Iraqis (with weapons and complicity from Israel and the West) would force me to educate my fellow citizens to retaliate.

Why do people in Western societies, that are a few centuries old, believe that civilizations that are 1000s of years old will sit back and watch the theft of their resources and the destruction of their societies by outsiders.

Clearly these people have read what the West plans for them and do not intent to be destroyed like the indigenous peoples of North America.
No matter how the West and its propagandists twist this, genocide and raw naked imperialism have been unleashed on the Muslims people of the planet because the West wants their resources. Do you seriously expect them to lie back and accept this plunder.

Just my objective take on the state of the planet.

[muriel_volestrangler]

92. The preachers in the video are mainly western converts

From the USA, Australia, and Jamaica; they're not talking about 'retaliation', they're talking about converting the whole world, by force if necessary, to fundamentalist Islam. There's a lot of talk about how Muslims are commanded to hate any non-Muslims. It's not a political argument they're using - it's a fundamentalist religious one. The moderate Islamic scholars interviewed in the programme are just as horrified by the preaching as anyone.

[malaise]

94. Pardon my cynicism but isn't this

precisely what the christians did to the rest of the world. Indeed didn't American bible thumpers head for Iraq before it became too dangerous. Bottom line - Christians, Jews et al use religion for economic gain so why shouldn't others. The difference with me and every one of these groups is that I know all religion is evil.

[muriel_volestrangler]

95. Yes, it can be compared to the Spanish going to America

to convert 'the heathens' - and look what a bloodbath that was. It was coming out of a Europe that had the Spanish Inquisition, burning of witches, and wars between rival Christian sects that killed over a million.

There's nothing here about "economic gain" - these people want religious police roaming the streets of the world, beating women who don't wear a veil.

[malaise]

96. Spanish?

British, all of them. By the way, it's always about economic gain - ask the pope.

[muriel_volestrangler]

101. Columbus, Cortez, Pizarro?

Spanish, or fighting for them. That's why I said 'America', not 'USA' (though, of course, a fair amount of what is now the USA was Spanish controlled at one point). The conquistadors were keen on 'converting the heathen'.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

182. erm...

What language do they predominantly speak in Latin America?

Clue: it's not English.

[LeftishBrit]

116. Exactly - these are religious extremists

There are some Moslems who hate the West for purely political reasons; but these are a different group of people, who have a mission to force everyone to convert to their particular brand of Islam. They do not represent Islam as a whole, but they are a scary group.

[Marie26]

133. And, interestingly,

it seems to be second-generation Muslims who are more drawn into this radical ideology. Why is that? Why would a kid who was born & raised in a Western country turn to Islamic fundamentalism?

[malaise]

152. I attended Catholic prep and High school

we were all discouraged from having non-catholic friends. It's all bullshit. All religion is evil.

[muriel_volestrangler]

155. Did they tell you it was your duty to hate all non-Catholics?

That would be the equivalent. I'd condemn any Catholic priest discouraging non-Catholic friends, but that's different from being told to hate.

[malaise]

156. Implicitly or explicitly?

And of course you should only marry catholics as well. Propaganda is propaganda and the promotion of hatred and self superiority is still the promotion of hatred and self superiority. They're all bullshit - sorry.

[muriel_volestrangler]

157. Explicitly. The Muslims preachers in the programme were explicit

several times that all non-Muslims should be hated.

Marrying inside a faith is common to many of them. Yes, I think most religions are divisive, but these preachers are saying "wait until we can take over the state - we'll have religious police patrolling the streets"; "democracy is evil"; and things like that.

On edit: it was often put as "hate the Jews and Christians", "the Jews and Christians are responsible for ...". Given there aren't really that many Jews either in Britain, or the world overall, the emphasis the preachers were laying on them as 'the enemy' looks rather anti-semitic.

[Dorian Gray]

163. You were?

When did you grow up? 1865?

Seriously, I've attended Catholic Schools all my life, and my husband teaches at one now. Among all the teachers and students, there are (he's at an all-girls school) Muslims, Wiccans, and many other non-Catholic Christians who attend the school. Growing up at Catholic Schools, I was NEVER told not to be friends with Catholics. My parents did not keep me away from non-Catholics, and I was lucky to have people from many faiths numbered as my friends.

You must have attended a very conservative/reactionary school. I've never ever ever heard of any Catholic school that was so exclusionary. And I even attended a Catholic University. (Boston College) It was a picture of a J Crew Catalog, but there were people of all faiths and backgrounds who wore their J Crew clothing. :)

[cool user name]

108. Well said, malaise ...

I have come to admire and respect your posts.

[malaise]

150. Thank you

As a descendant of victims I think long and hard before I judge.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

112. It's worth not letting the G word go unchallenged, I think.

I disagree with most of your post (the idea that the age of Islamic civilisations is relevant is an odd one, and your use of word "retaliate" in this context is telling), but the most obviously untrue thing you say is that "genocide... has been unleashed on the Muslims people (sic) of the planet".

That's simply not true. Go and get a dictionary and look up genocide.

It's worth noting that Muslim people suffer far more, and far worse, at the hands of Muslim governments than they do as a result of Western actions.

[malaise]

151. Just like the Irish

but then the poor Irish were the first experiment for the Brits weren't they. Divide and rule - it works for no one.
Question - who has murdered Christians more than Christians?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

153. How's that for a non-sequitur?

This may have something to do with what I said, but if so I confess myself unable to see how.

By the way, the Irish were not, in fact, the first people the British committed something that could arguably be termed genocide against (I'm not an expert on the Irish potato famine, but I've certainly heard it claimed that it was deliberately worsened by the British to try and wipe out the Irish; I suspect but don't know that this isn't true) - they were preceded by any number of native American tribes who were wiped out by the British settlers who went on to found the USA, in one of the relatively few genuine examples of succesful genocide - there are still Armenians, Jews, Marsh Arabs, Tutsis etc around, but most of the native American tribes are now dead to the last man.

I imagine there are other examples even earlier, if you know where to look.

[malaise]

154. You cannot be serious

You wrote that Muslims kill Muslims so I was just showing you that for economic reasons, people from different religions kill people looking just like themselves.
From the 1620s Cromwell and his merry band captured Irish citizens and sent them to Barbados as slaves - thousands of them. They grabbed those who would not give them their land or just kidnapped them off the streets. Do you have any idea how many Irish people died in this process in Barbados, Jamaica, Montserrat and St Kitts? After destroying the indigenous people and the Irish they headed for Africa to repeat the process for the British Planters had to get rich.

All these victims were called barbarians or other derogatory names - how different do you think that was to what is going on in Iraq today. You see all I see is evil, greedy men promoting their agenda and killing anyone in their path. I maintain that all religion is evil and religion is used by the most evil to achieve economic aims.

Sp.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

184. British advances into Ireland were always about religion and power-politics

What the English and its successor British state feared most was a hostile Catholic continent (typically Spain, and later France) using Ireland as a launching pad to overthrow the British Protestant state. It is from this that there came attempts to convert Ireland to protestantism and settle English and Scots settlers on favourable land. Ireland always remained an economic unproductive colony due to the cost of occupation and subjugating the host population.

However apart from this, Anglo-Norman settlements in the 1100s were economic in nature, but this population remained loyal to the old faith and became a part of mainstream Irish catholic culture.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

183. The Irish Potato Famine

wasn't proactively worsened by Britain. Although Britain was at fault due to inaction in the lack of poor-relief as the British government followed the philosophy of classical liberalism (in which poor-relief was seen as unacceptable interference in the market and led to degenerate dependency).

[Hoping4Change]

149. Your lumping all Muslims together and assuming they just victims of

non-Mulsims ignores historical fact. Wahabis have been massacring and executing other Muslims since this vile ideolgy took hold. The following is from WAHHABISM: UNDERSTANDING THE ROOTS AND ROLE MODELS OF ISLAMIC EXTREMISM by Zubair Qamar.


"it will surprise many to know that the orthodox Sunni Muslims were the first to be slaughtered in waves of Wahhabi massacres in Arabia hundreds of years ago. One only has to read the historical evolution of Saudi Arabia to know the gruesome details of the tragedy – a tragedy in which thousands of Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims perished at the hands of Wahhabi militants.

The extremist interpretations of Wahhabism, although previously confined to small pockets of people in Arabia, has survived to this day under the protection, finance, and tutelage of the Saudi state religious organs. This has transformed Wahhabism – and related Salafi groups that receive inspiration and support from them – from a regional to a global threat to be reckoned with by the world community. To a Wahhabi-Salafi, all those who differ with them, including Sunni Muslims, Shi’ite Muslims, Christians, and Jews, are infidels who are fair targets."

http://www.sunnah.org/articles/Wahhabiarticleedit.htm


Not only do Wahabis persecute kill Muslims who do not suscribe to their odious beliefs but they tearing down historic buildings and mosques because of their warped views on history.



http://www.sunnah.org/arabic/mawldhouse/Wahabi_desecrat...

[rman]

98. And never a peep about Wahhabism from Saudi friend the USA

In supporting the Saudi Government Bush et al are supporting the Saudi state religion: Wahhabism. Thus enabling enemies of the US/the West.
Question is, how far do they go in enabling enemies of the West?

[One_Life_To_Give]

131. And opposing them does what to the price of oil

Hypothetically suppose in Late January 2009 the new Dem Administration supported by overwhelming Dem majorities in both houses takes a hard line with the house of Saud. What will be the price of Gas leading up to the midterms?

They have had every administration over a barrel for the last 30 years. Nobody since Carter has crafted a plan to try and break free from their control. It will take many years for us to become relatively immune to their potential retaliations.

[aikoaiko]

106. Thanks for the post.

Too many people here dismiss islamist militants as a fiction, but that shits for real. Of course the solution is to work with moderate and reformist muslims.

[Warren DeMontague]

118. Time to put an end to the lie that "the left" supports those folks.

Whackjob religious fundamentalists are whackjob religious fundamentalists. The antidotes to religious fundamentalist theocracy are secular values. Free thought. Openness. Equal rights for women and gays. Science. Education. Sexual freedom. Readily accessible birth control.

Many of the same things the GOP is trying to stamp out here at home.

But invading countries is a piss-poor way to wrench them out of the grip of theocratic control freaks.

Frankly, I think we'd get much better results if we carpet bombed the middle east with porn, big screen tvs, and indica weed.

[oblivious]

119. DU readers in Panic, Taking Documentary as fact.

Many Flee Homes to Escape 'coming Jihad'--Phone Calls Swamp Homeland Security

Sorry, this reminded me of the Orson Welles and the Mercury Theatre on the Air.


http://members.aol.com/jeff1070/wotw.html

Some dumb sounding American convert trying to sell British Muslims on Saudi Wahhabist teachings!!

I only watched a part of it but it was only one or two people talking. The reporter definitely had an agenda. I have no doubt you can find speakers like these. I often wonder who they work for, if British intel and police allow them to continue like this.

[muriel_volestrangler]

120. So you do think they're doing something illegal, then

Because otherwise, why would you be surprised that British intelligence and police allow them to continue? And in that case, it seems quite reasonable to make a documentary about something that some people like yourself regard as illegal.

If you only watched a part of it, how do you know it was only one or two people talking? I would say it was about 6 different preachers, through the programme.

[oblivious]

121. How could I know if they are doing something illegal?

I said I only watched part of it.

I saw one or two people talking. Where did I say that was all? How could I know?

Where did I say making the documentary was unreasonable? I did imply that some of the responses here were a bit unreasonable. And I did imply that one or more of these speakers are employed by British intel.

Please don't put words in my mouth again.

[muriel_volestrangler]

122. I think your opinion of the documentary is irrelevant

since you only watched a tiny part of it. If I said "I only read the first page of War and Peace - there's only a couple of people talking", it would hardly be a decent comment on the whole book, would it? Why did you bother saying it was only one or two people talking? It's a misleading statement. There are many more people than that in the documentary, but your characterisation of it implies you have some knowledge of it, which you don't.

By comparing a documentary showing real people to Welles' War of the Worlds, and saying the maker had an agenda, you are implying the documentary was unreasonable. Your reasoning for your claim that one or both of the two speakers you saw are employed by British intelligence is that they're doing something that you'd expect to be closed down by the police - ie that it's illegal. Why, then, accuse the documentary of 'having an agenda'? Showing possible law-breaking is a neutral reason for making a documentary.

[LeftishBrit]

126. What is your evidence that the documentary is false?

There were certainly more than one or two people.

Sometimes I get the impression that people think there are only two possible viewpoints: all Moslems are extremists, or Moslem extremists don't exist. Can't we admit that there are some Moslem extremists, and there are a danger, and they don't represent Moslems as a whole? (Just as there were some Catholic IRA terrorists and some Protestant paramilitary terrorists, and they were a danger, and they didn't represent Christians as a whole.)

[Hoping4Change]

139. Well said. Perhaps the solution would be for people to

differentiate the various sects rather than to simply refer to Muslims.. Although Muslims ideally regard other Muslims as their bothers and sisters, in reality there is no one Islam just as there is no one Christianity.

[oblivious]

159. I'm not saying the documentary is false. I did say 'sorry' before the NYT page I posted.

I said 'sorry' because it was obviously unfair to compare the two, but I had this image of a few people running around in a panic after seeing this video and I thought of the reaction to the Orson Welles hoax and decided to have some fun with it. I didn't think it would get anyone so upset. I didn't mean that this video is a hoax. As I said, I have no doubt you can find people like this if you want. It's the reaction from some quarters I am laughing at.

I'm just a bit sceptical of this fear-mongering.

[CJCRANE]

166. I agree with you.

Reason being is that the fear-mongering is always used to take away our civil liberties or to stir up support to attack a country which is a rival to Saudi Arabia
(such as Iran, Iraq, Syria).

Bush & Blair never say a word against Saudi Arabia even though it's the source of Wahhabism.

It's a very blatant "false flag" use of propaganda but most people don't seem to notice.

[Hoping4Change]

145. You obviously are totally ignorant of the violent history of Wabahis

which goes back hundreds of year. The following is from WAHHABISM: UNDERSTANDING THE ROOTS AND ROLE MODELS OF ISLAMIC EXTREMISM
by Zubair Qamar*


"it will surprise many to know that the orthodox Sunni Muslims were the first to be slaughtered in waves of Wahhabi massacres in Arabia hundreds of years ago. One only has to read the historical evolution of Saudi Arabia to know the gruesome details of the tragedy – a tragedy in which thousands of Sunni and Shi’ite Muslims perished at the hands of Wahhabi militants.

The extremist interpretations of Wahhabism, although previously confined to small pockets of people in Arabia, has survived to this day under the protection, finance, and tutelage of the Saudi state religious organs. This has transformed Wahhabism – and related Salafi groups that receive inspiration and support from them – from a regional to a global threat to be reckoned with by the world community. To a Wahhabi-Salafi, all those who differ with them, including Sunni Muslims, Shi’ite Muslims, Christians, and Jews, are infidels who are fair targets."

http://www.sunnah.org/articles/Wahhabiarticleedit.htm


Not only do Wahabis persecute kill Muslims who do not suscribe to their odious beliefs but they tearing down historic buildings and mosques because of their warped views on history.



http://www.sunnah.org/arabic/mawldhouse/Wahabi_desecration_Sh_Rifai.htm

[rman]

161. You think there's no difference between Drama and Documentary?

Drama is supposed to be fiction, Documentary is supposed to be fact.

But i guess you already knew that.

Of course the reporter has an agenda. The problem with agendas is not so much in having them, but in having a *hidden* agenda. The agenda is not hidden if someone "clearly" has an agenda.

Any agenda that the reporter has does not change a thing about what the religious speakers in the mosque have to say. Maybe you should see more of that documentary before passing judgment on it.

I have no doubt that what's documented in this documentary is real.
But i'm not so sure this fundamentalist Islam is as much grass-roots as it is made out to be in the media, and i'm wondering who's funding it.

[oblivious]

175. I already explained that in post 159 before you posted..

[Marrah_G]

123. Extremists suck

People who immigrate to other countries and then expect those countries to be the ones to change and not them just flat out suck.

If you want Sharia Law.... if you think stoning women to death for being raped and women being silent and invisable to the world out of fear they might cause a man an erection then please feel free to move the hell out of europe...Tehran is waiting for you, The Saudi's will just love you. Me? Well personally I would rather die and take a few assholes with me then to be forced to live under their "laws".

Human beings never cease to amaze me. You would think we would be wiser by now, as well as more civilized.

[Marie26]

132. That's what I don't get

You want Sharia law & an Islamic state? There's a whole lot of countries you might like better than Britain. I've got no problem w/people who wish to follow a certain religion or moral code in their own lives, but I do have a problem when they seek to impose that code on others.

[Hoping4Change]

140. Their stated goal is to convert the world to Islam. Wahabis

do not see value in any demcratic value, they do not see any value in people doing their own thing.

[CJCRANE]

168. And ironically

the Republican Party is their best bet to do that.

Just consider that the Neo-Republican dream is an American theocracy, a kind of Christian version of Saudi Arabia. If that were ever to happen the two countries would have much more in common than they would have differences.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

127. My god.

It's the biggest threat since communism.

:eyes:

[skypilot]

130. kick

*

[ChickMagic]

141. My feelings mirror those of Jean Meslier

or Denis Diderot (whomever you choose to believe)

"I would like — and this would be the last and most ardent of my wishes — I would like the last of the kings to be strangled by the guts of the last priest".

Diderot did say,"From fanaticism to barbarism is only one step."

[slackmaster]

146. Any US mosque that engages in this kind of thing should lose tax-exempt status

Tax the churches NOW!

[IronScorpio5]

147. Good luck trying to prove it

eom

[hogwyld]

160. A little melodromatic aren't we???

A couple of nutjobs is not enough to take over a modern democracy. Don't fall prey to the scare tactics of our true enemy, corporate owned MSM. They have as much of a chance of instituting Sharia law as Xtians do of posting the 10 commandments outside the Saudi royal palace. The real trick si to let as many in as possible, and contaminate their pure souls with the wickedness that comes with freedom. As a poster noted earlier, bombard them with porn, weed, and big screen tv's.

[Hoping4Change]

164. .

.

[shance]

167. This strikes me as more scapegoating and demonization of Muslims in general.

By using propaganda to paint them as demons and promote more fear of those who are Arabic.

Remember wars can only continue while those promoting war maintain a manufactured enemy.

It strikes me that today the Muslims as a group are the manufactured enemy.

Don't continue to allow history to repeat itself.

[muriel_volestrangler]

172. Does that make the moderate Muslims in the programme 'self-hating', then?

Do you think their criticism of the extremists was aimed at painting themselves as demons?

[shance]

173. What do you think of Christian and Jewish extremists?

Why are they not held to the same scrutiny?

[muriel_volestrangler]

174. If any are preaching similar messages of hate, I'd want similar measures

exclude those who aren't British; withdraw charitable status from organisations who allow such political posturing, and stop any government co-operation with them. However, I'm unaware of such Christian, Hindu, Jewish or other preachers in Britain at the moment. I put the Muslim preachers seen in the programme on a par with the BNP - you might not be able to arrest them, but everyone needs to speak up against them..

Any thoughts on the Muslim moderates in the programme?

[Hoping4Change]

189. Where have you been living? There are many organizations

that keep watch on Xhristian extremists; to name just a few: Americans for the Separation of Church and State, Theocracy watch, Southern Poverty and Law Center. There are also countless documentaries that have exposed Xhristian extremism such as Jesus Camp which just came out.

[LeftishBrit]

190. Muriel, like me, lives in the UK

Extremist Christian organizations are far less of a feature of British life than they seem to be of American life - with of course the important exception of the IRA, Irish Protestant paramilitary groups and the likes of the Reverend Ian Paisley. But even these latter groups have tended to emphasize bitter political history, more than religious ideologies, at least in recent years. Even the names of the main organizations suggest this: the Irish Republican Army, Ulster Volunteer Force, etc, rather than Catholic/ Protestant Crusaders, etc.

In the UK, religious ideological hate-preachers are uncommon in any faith but probably are proportionally more common among Moslem than Christian preachers. (Race-hatred is another matter, is much commoner, and is most often preached and practiced by white native British people against all immigrants and asylum seekers, and their children and grandchildren, especially those who are not white.)

[Hoping4Change]

186. This isn't propaganda. And the Muslims shown are

demonizing themselves, no one is putting words in their mouths. Furthermore the imans spouting off all the hate are addressing what are said to be mainstream mosques.

[cwydro]

169. kick

[CJCRANE]

171. Muslim population of UK = 2.7%

And the number of those who are radical imams or active fundamentalists is pretty small.

[JNelson6563]

176. Actually more practical than the rapturists

Those anxious for the rapture look even more delusional now IMO. While the Fundy Islamists plan/hope to take over the world, American Christian Fundies are tools of those who are currently taking over the world and are live for the day they magically vanish.

Oy. Believers.

Julie

[Elidor]

185. Marking for later perusal