FL teachers seek to hold Gov. Crist to his promise to raise their salaries to "over $100,000"

[Doondoo]

Good news, teachers!

Charlie Crist wants to give you a raise -- a whopper of one, in fact.

Listen to his exact words:

"Over $100,000. And I know that it sounds a bit extreme to some people, but I think it's important to set the bar high."

Even better, we're not talking sometime way down the road. Crist said he wants these six-figure salaries in place by 2010.

Crist knew his goal sounded audacious. He said: "I can tell you when I was a kid we had a president who once said by the end of the decade we're going to put a man on the moon and I'm sure people kind of scoffed at that."

Did you miss this announcement? Well, that might be because Crist didn't make it last week. He made it in 2001. That was back when he was education commissioner -- and when he probably didn't expect he'd be governor on the year of his deadline and in a position to make good on his lofty goal.

One person who expects him to do just that, though, is Rebecca Klouse.

Rebecca is a first-grade teacher at Lovell Elementary in Apopka. And she is the one who clipped out the article that ran in the Orlando Sentinel six years ago, buried on page D5 of the Local & State section with the headline "State education chief: Pay teachers $100,000 by 2010."

She kept it all these years and mailed it to the newspaper last week, saying: "I am the type that, if someone says something, I want them to remember it."


http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.orlandosentinel.com%2Fnews%2Fcolumnists%2Forl-maxwell1807feb18%2C0%2C3172393.column

[BlooInBloo]

1. Good - now there'll be genuine competition for teaching jobs...

... instead of schools being forced to accept the bottom of the intellectual barrel.

[cali]

3. I know many fantastic teachers, and

your comment is a slap across the face to them. Many people go into teaching because they're dedicated to it.

As for 100,000 dollar teacher salaries, maybe after many years, but certainly not as an average salary. These are folks who get an enormous amount of time off.

[BlooInBloo]

5. (shrug) I want smarter teachers. Pay of this sort is one good step towards that.

[greenbriar]

8. you need to stop your trashing of teachers right now

how dare you claim to know everything about teachers?

do you help in your children's classroom? Do you run for school board? do you help write standards? Do you know what a pacing guide is? What is a DCA? What are the stats on the Mat7? What kind of intervention would you put in place?

those are just a small example of what we are working with...

[AngryAmish]

25. Well, there is a point in there

At most universities the teaching program has among lowest test scores, etc. It is the raw material that makes up the profession.

[MadHound]

31. Sorry, but you are full of it.

Education majors actually have some of the higher GPAs on campus, and in addition are required to take more hours than most degrees. Not to mention that most education programs require a GPA of 2.75 or more to get in, along with the completion of tests before and after you're admitted. In addition, once they have their undergrad degree, most states require them to at least start a masters within four years. Unlike other professions, if a teacher wants to get to the top of their profession, they have get that PhD too.

Meanwhile business majors, arts, journalism, and many others can find employment and move up the ranks without the benefit of a grad degree, nor do most of the degrees require the kinds of tests and coursework load required of teachers.

[BlooInBloo]

36. Nope - it's perfectly true. Education majors are about as dim as bulbs get....

I fully support anything that tends to change that - let the $100,000 salaries roll in!

EDIT: Some numbers, for any interested in the truth http://sherifffruitfly.googlepages.com/educationdoesn%26%2339%3Btmixwiththegre

[GaYellowDawg]

73. Oh, I think not.

I'm getting a PhD in science education. I scored 670, 670, and 690 on verbal, quantitative, and analytical, respectively, without any study for the test. Please note that I took the GRE in 2001, thus the older format for the analytical score.

I've seen a very broad spectrum of college undergraduates, as I've taught general biology labs for science majors, general biology labs for non-science majors, supervised 20+ student teachers, and taught two elementary science education courses. While I would like to see more content requirements in the education majors, I've seen no real difference in the "raw material." Speaking from experience that you don't have, I am well able to say that you're full of shit.

[BlooInBloo]

74. (shrug) Then you're something like 3stdevs outta the norm. The ETS' numbers have been posted here.

[GaYellowDawg]

75. Irrelevant.

While the people at ETS would like for you to believe that their tests are the sole measuring stick for intellect and/or ability, high test scores are not in and of themselves a predictor for academic and/or career success. Your reliance on the test scores as your sole measure of "quality" tells me that you have an agenda without experience. You might as well be a fundamentalist talking about how science works.

[BlooInBloo]

78. If it's irrelevant, then why were you so hot to reference your middlin' scores?

[GaYellowDawg]

79. LOL... well, that one's easy

Citing my relatively high scores enables me to question ETS's relevance without being accused of sour grapes. Duh. :eyes:

Edited to add:

And what were your scores?

[BlooInBloo]

81. lol! I suppose in an Education major context, those WOULD be counted...

... as high scores - my apologies on that.

Bottom line, which apparently we differ on, is that I want smarter, better-educated, more knowledgeable teachers. I typically support policies which further that goal. Hence, I support dramatically increased teachers' wages.

[GaYellowDawg]

83. LOL...

The scores were good enough to get me admitted to both a Genetics and a Science Ed PhD program. They also got me a considerable amount of mail from institutions around the country, and were quite an asset when interviewing to get into PhD programs. They're still not a predictor of success, either academically or professionally.

Everyone wants smarter, better-educated, more knowledgeable teachers. The bottom line on which we differ is that education majors are intrinsically inferior to other college students. I can only conclude from your lack of reading comprehension that either you're a "dim bulb," or you're an asshole who's vainly trying to set up a straw man.

[BlooInBloo]

92. I didn't say anything about *intrinsically* - that's you making shit up.

[GaYellowDawg]

116. Yes you did, and here are your own words.

"Education majors are about as dim as bulbs get...."
"schools being forced to accept the bottom of the intellectual barrel."
"the teaching program has among lowest test scores, etc. It is the raw material that makes up the profession."

Raw material. That's about as synonymous with intrinsic as it gets. Then all the slights about intelligence - what's more intrinsic than that? You've spent all this time trashing a group of people and now you're too much of a coward to admit it. Pathetic.

[dsc]

106. I teach math and got a 680, 800, and 800 under the old system

are those scores good enough for you.

[BlooInBloo]

109. They're just *lovely* scores. Why you all think that individual anecdotes...

... are so much as relevant to a discussion about an *aggregate* is beyond me.

Actually, I'm being disingenuous - it isn't beyond me. Turning a discussion about an aggregate into a discussion about individuals is a perfectly standard rhetorical ploy by those who aren't confident speaking on the aggregate level.

The aggregate numbers have been made available. If one wishes to talk about numbers, and ALSO be topical, I suggest one talk about *those* numbers.

(Stage left enter: "But if we have to talk about aggregate numbers, then we're just gonna say that numbers aren't relevant! We education-folk only want to talk about numbers that make us look good!")

It's funny as hell though, to hear math teachers attempting to refute talk about averages via talk of a single observation - it nicely illustrates my point.

[dsc]

110. I was refuting your asshole type treatment of the previous poster

I think that high school teachers are on average scoring better on those tests than elementary teachers. In my experience most high school teachers are pretty sharp, especially in their content.

[BlooInBloo]

111. (a) Why guess? The numbers are available. (b) What a low bar to set....

(c) Way to throw the elementary teachers under the bus! :rofl:

[dsc]

112. They should score lower

They get a little of all content areas. I haven't a clue how to teach a person to read. I also don't have a clue how to teach spelling. Conversly, I know a great deal of mathematical and social studies knowledge that an elementary teacher doesn't need to know. I have been in a very large number of teachers lounges and can definately say that elementary teachers tend not to be as bright as their high school counterparts. I would definately match the math ability of the math teachers I have met with the math knowledge of the typical college grad.

[MadHound]

88. OK tough guy, what was/is your undergrad GPA? What's your IQ

Mine's 3.96 and 160 respectively, can you match the numbers? If not, sit down and shut the fuck up. Oh, and pal, if you think that teaching is so easy and for those who are less educated, why don't you jump in since you think that it's so easy. I'm so sure that they'll let you in an education program somewhere:eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

93. Apparently reading wasn't part of your curriculum (else grade inflation)....

(a) I have acknowledged (several times, iirc) that teaching is incredibly difficult - that's partly the basic of my line of thought - why should such ill-educated folk be doing such a difficult (and important) job?

(b) I have mentioned several times that I have significant teaching experience.

As for my "numbers" - I've never taken an IQ test, so I don't have an entry in your large-appendage contest. My undergrad gpa was quite low - so much so that I'm certain it was by FAR the lowest of anyone ever recruited by the world's top 2-or-3 philosophy grad programs. (Thankfully my in-major gpa was approx as good as possible, as were GRE, essay, and recommendations - lol!)

But my stats, and yours, aren't the issue - I'm talking about a class of folks as an *aggregate* - no statement has been made (on my part) about this-or-that individual. It's amusing how education people exhibit such a thorough inability to discern the difference.

You know anti-intellectualism has carried the day when the education people themselves fight so hard against smarter teachers. Out of all of the problems with our educational system, that may be the only one that is completely within their power to address - sucks that they don't.

[Solo_in_MD]

54. Its not the GPA, its the difficulty of the classes.

And your are right that most degrees don't require what is required of the Ed majors, they require much more. Technical degrees pay more because they are much more difficult to get. Ed degrees are much easier by comparison. I've watched what it takes to get both up close and personal.

At the high school where I taught we had EdD (educational doctorates) who insisted what they had was the equivalent to a PhD. I would always reply "then why don't the Universities see it that way when it comes to credentialing a program?". They never seemed to have an answer.

As for the requirement for a masters, its meaningless. Every profession requires members one way or another to keep current with the field, except education. There is no requirement to use anything from the in service days, training seminars, and other classes in the classroom. Since teachers are basically insulated from performance based accountability, we should expect no different until they do.

[BlooInBloo]

62. But... but... They REQUIRE a C+ gpa!!! ROFLMAO!!!!

[Solo_in_MD]

Which it trivial to get

[MadHound]

87. As opposed to business programs, nursing programs, etc.

That require only a C or less to get in. Yeah, that's some standards there:eyes:

Tell you what genius boy, you think that you can teach, then put your money where your mouth is and go out and fucking teach. I dropped a career in a lab to go teach, and am currently getting my teaching degree. I've seen both sides of the fence on this one, and let me tell you, you're full of shit and have absolutely no fucking clue as to what you're talking about.

Oh, and for your information, I'm pulling a 3.96 GPA, and the rest of my education cohorts, well, none of them is getting below a 3.45.

[AbbyR]

63. I don't know about your state, but

teachers here are required to have at least 60 hours of inservice per year, and they are observed and evaluated at least four times a year, more for new teachers. There are college class requirements, too.

As for performance, I will support performance-based evaluation (based on student test scores) when one of two things happens:
1. All classes are equal - students equally motivated and supported at home, equal ability, same number of students with learning disabilities in each class and so on, or
2. Teachers are evaluated based on the progress of their students - one year's progress for one year's work - rather than all students being required to reach grade level, no matter where they started at the beginning of the year.

[Solo_in_MD]

69. Those are pretty weak for a professional situation

teachers here are required to have at least 60 hours of inservice per year
Its called in house training in industry. Nothing novel or unique there

and they are observed and evaluated at least four times a year, more for new teachers.
Thats a minimum in a professional company.

There are college class requirements, too.
There is de facto or de jure continuing education requirements in every profession. Its also subsidized in most districts

As for performance, I will support performance-based evaluation (based on student test scores) when one of two things happens:
1. All classes are equal - students equally motivated and supported at home, equal ability, same number of students with learning disabilities in each class and so on, or
2. Teachers are evaluated based on the progress of their students - one year's progress for one year's work - rather than all students being required to reach grade level, no matter where they started at the beginning of the year.

Your proposals are apples and oranges, but thats typical. Until education dumps the industrial model with its trappings, and adopts meaningful measurement including teacher performance, it will continue to fail both students and attract mostly those with lesser talents and vision.

[MadHound]

85. Yeah, as opposed to business careers, wherein many can get by with a BA all of their life

Oh, and for your information, teachers are required to start working on their masters within four years of certification. In addition to other outside training, seminars, professional conferences, etc. etc.

And an EdD is the equivalent of a PhD, as is an MD, JUD, etc. That is the reality of the matter. And the universities that I've know do see it that way.

And there is an increasing amount of accountability required of a teacher. To their students, parents, administrators, school board, state board, and now with NCLB, to the federal level, with the extra added bonus of getting funding cut. Oh, and the public in general gets to decide the teachers' salaries and the quality of facilities that teachers have to work in. Gee, what other profession gets that kind of accounting? How would you fare if the public got to control your salary?

And friend, if you think that teaching degrees are easy to get through, I would suggest that you actually go out and try to get through one. Until then, you really don't know what you're talking about, OK. I've seen both sides of that fence, and technical degrees are easier than teaching.

[BlooInBloo]

96. Agreed - education isn't the ONLY idiots-major in existence...

... though it's likely the most important.

Your wording in your last sentence was a bit unclear - is it your opinion that teaching degrees are more difficult to obtain that hard-sciences degrees?

[greenbriar]

6. thank you. I really held back my emotions when I posted

I had to truly think before I responded because I was scathing in my first post.

[BlooInBloo]

7. (shrug) Don't hold back on my account. I don't.

[greenbriar]

9. okay then go cheney yourself

teacher hat OFF

[BlooInBloo]

12. Wow. You must be a teacher, for that to be the best you can do.

[greenbriar]

13. no, thats all the time I am going to WASTE on you

carry on

I have lesson plans to make
seating charts to write
supporting material to create
powerpoints and smart board materials to put together

[AbbyR]

20. And I'm betting you will have to go to the bank

so you can buy classroom materials for your kids that the district doesn't provide, and books for your classroom library, snacks for the kids who come to school without breakfast.

People have no idea what teachers do and the hours they dedicate to their students.

[greenbriar]

22. yes. Often my husband asks if I am working to support my classroom

or our family

[GaYellowDawg]

76. You know what's the funniest thing?

People who "retire" to teach because they think it's an easy job. You can always tell who they are by how quickly they lose control of their classrooms and drop out.

[BlooInBloo]

80. Teaching is incredibly draining and difficult - glad we agree on that...

... We seem to disagree on one conclusion of that: I want better and smarter teachers to perform this invaluable and difficult job. Towards that end, I'm ALL in favor of 3x, 4x, or more of the current market rate for the profession.

It's hilarious though, watching CURRENT (C+, lower quartile) teachers fanatically nailing themselves in their own coffins on this issue. What do they think will happen upon teacher salaries increasing in this manner? That people of THEIR intellect level would get hired? NOT. The only reason teachers of the current intellect level are ABLE to work in the profession is that intelligent, well-educated people DON'T WANT those jobs - the reward/headache ratio isn't in the right place. If that changes, teachers of current levels are going to find themselves SOL.

Teachers caught on to this eventuality with things like teacher-testing and what-not, and are staunchly, self-interestedly against such things. It's hilarious that they don't recognize substantial increases in pay as engendering the same effect.

(shrug) It's better for the kids, and hence America though, so rock on.

[GaYellowDawg]

86. There are a number of things wrong with this post.

Your assumption that raw intelligence is the sole predictor for success as a teacher is flawed. Everyone who's on this board has been subjected to teachers who obviously knew the material, and were very smart, but couldn't get the material across to their students.

Excellent teaching requires empathetic, organizational, and social skills in addition to the intellectual. If you're missing any of these, you'll be less than excellent. Someone who has strong social and organizational skills will be more successful in the classroom than someone with astounding intellect who can't get organized or relate the information to students.

As for the money, the worst teachers I've known were the ones who got through it just for the paycheck. It doesn't mean I'm against substantial raises for teachers. It means that the best teachers are in it because they love teaching.

[BlooInBloo]

94. Good thing I nowhere made a single one of the assumptions you attribute to me.

[GaYellowDawg]

117. It's laced through virtually every one of your posts.

You don't speak of any attribute except intelligence. You have never stated that the influx of more motivated, or more empathetic, or more organized teachers would lead to better teaching. You have focused solely on intelligence. As above, you don't have the courage to assume responsibility for your own words.

You have nothing of value to offer. From this point on, you're ignored.

[senseandsensibility]

45. greenbriar

Life is too short. I'm a teacher, and I have stopped engaging with teacher bashers. They don't get it because they don't want to. Fortunately, they are in a tiny, tiny minority. Your are one hundred perecent correct and have the moral authority behind you. Everyone who reads this thread will see that. But you do not need to keep bashing your head against a brick wall.:hug:

[BlooInBloo]

51. Aaahh... The blind leading the blind...

It's hilarious - teachers actively WANT to be as stupid as possible - any suggestion of IMPROVING the intellectual abilities of their profession is shutdown. :rofl:

http://sherifffruitfly.googlepages.com/educationdoesn%26%2339%3Btmixwiththegre

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. Agreed

Sometimes DUers are like misbehaving students. They're just looking for attention.

[BlooInBloo]

64. Moi? You'll not find a stronger supporter of high teacher salaries than me.

[AbbyR]

18. Time off???

Most teachers I know get to work at least an hour before the students arrive and leave an hour or more after students leave. They spend several hours every night and every weekend doing extensive planning, making learning materials and grading papers, and providing for individualized instruction. On those long vacations, they are planning and attending (required) classes and inservice.

It's no wonder teachers aren't paid more - no one knows how much real work they do.

[greenbriar]

19. no kidding. Today we have off for presidents day but I have 175 papers to grade

lesson plans to write

materials to make for my classes such as quiz cards and powerpoints and smart board interactive lessons


somewhere in there, I have to take my daughter for a physical and work on my thesis paper.

inbetween all that, I am doing laundry and making dinner

some day off

[cali]

32. Yes, time off.

I'm not saying teachers don't work hard, but no other profession offers so much time off. Maybe all the teachers you know work all summer long, but the ones I know, don't.

[AbbyR]

33. Then they must be up on their required classes

and have someone else supporting them. The ones I know are taking classes, working a summer job so they can make ends meet, and so on. Teachers only get paid for ten months. They may choose to have their ten month salary paid over twelve months, but they are only paid for the ten months. Before you tell me I'm nuts, call your local school district and find out.

[cali]

38. It all depends where you live

I'm in northern Vermont and a teacher's salary here, compared to what others earn, is nothing to be sneered at. And yes, the teachers I know all get by on their teaching salaries.

[ProfessorGAC]

41. My Wife NEVER Did

Not once in 29 years. So, while it's only anecdotal evidence, it compares with your experience.

The Professor

[Solo_in_MD]

37. In your estimations,does the average teacher work the same amount of hours as a typical professional

[BlooInBloo]

52. That depends almost entirely upon what one takes "typical" to refer.

[AbbyR]

53. I can only compare what I do

I am now a professional, and I work 9-10 hours a day and very few weekends. Once I return to the classroom (in the fall) I will be at work by 7:30 a.m. and will leave, if I have no meetings, at 4:30. I will take home papers to grade and will be working on lesson plans for another two or more hours in the evening. I will generally work 5-10 hours on the weekends, planning and preparing instructional materials.

My husband was a research and analytical chemist. When we were first married and I was still teaching, I always worked longer hours than he did, usually many more hours. The nine to five day does not exist for a teacher.

[Solo_in_MD]

58. My own obersvations are different

When I taught, most teachers were rarely on campus more than 6.5 hours. Most worked to rule, even when a job actions was not in progress. Good use of prep periods and student help meant rarely more than an additional hour of grading a day. When you factor in the school vacation days and summer break. Its a full time salary for a 70% job. Newer teachers worked more, the very experienced less (for higher wages)

Note that my wife is a career teacher, with an EdD and I have taught at the high school, undergraduate, and graduate levels.

[mcar]

47. The other poster's comment was a slap in the face

but your comments hurt as well.

"As for 100,000 dollar teacher salaries, maybe after many years, but certainly not as an average salary. These are folks who get an enormous amount of time off."

My husband is a high school math teacher. During the school year he works about 50 hours a week, coaches about 20 hours a week (for very little pay) and arranges and chaperones students on service trips overseas during some of that "enormous" time off (for no pay, it actually costs us for his travel and lodging, etc.). In addition, he works nights grading papers and preparing lesson plans, tutors students after school one day a week and serves on school-based committees. Oh, yes, he also takes graduate courses to earn a master's degree and other courses, which are required to keep up his certification. This comes out of our pocket as well.

He earns that time off; in fact, he and most of his colleagues need the time off so they can work a second job to make more money. He has earned the right to a reasonable salary. Teaching is the only profession that pays sub-level wages and requires the professionals to put their own money into their workplace.

If teachers got the salary, respect and support they deserved, this society would have a better educational system. I'm all in favor of year-round schooling, as is my husband. We just couldn't afford it on his current salary - we need that summer job income.

[greenbriar]

4. excuse me??? I am a teacher and I deeply resent that comment

and invite you to spend a day in my classroom.


see for yourself

[ulysses]

17. don't worry about it.

The poster in question has a well-documented bug up the ass problem with teachers.

[BlooInBloo]

21. Yup - namely that they're, um, less than intellectually gifted...

http://pages.google.com/edit/sherifffruitfly/educationdoesn%26%2339%3Btmixwiththegre?authtoken=18705d969079d6c97a1cb3894c83fa6edec9706a

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AbbyR]

26. How many teachers do you know?

The ones I know are bright, hard-working and dedicated, and you would not believe the amount of work they had to do and testing they had to survive to set foot in a classroom.

I am now a newspaper writer and editor, preparing to return to the classroom after a 20-year absence. I have a bachelor's degree in education and a master's degree in counseling. I have won any number of press association awards. To get back into the classroom, I had to take six hours of classes, take two standardized tests and send in proof that I have been volunteering in education for many years - and that's to get back into the classroom with nine years' experience under my belt. I also had to have state and FBI background checks, which I paid for myself.

You've been running into the wrong teachers.

[BlooInBloo]

27. I dunno - a hundred maybe? I'm sure lots of people know more.

[ulysses]

29. and yet we never see

your intellectually superior self heading off to the classroom. Why is that?

[BlooInBloo]

34. Because you're blind? I taught for 7 or so years.

[ulysses]

39. well hell!

And you left those kids in the care of the ignoramuses who, according to you, dominate the profession? How do you sleep?

[BlooInBloo]

42. Very well, thank for asking!

[GaYellowDawg]

77. LOL... aaah, a washout with an axe to grind.

Now I understand.

[BlooInBloo]

82. Washout? I suppose to education people, the completion of 2 graduate degrees counts as such.

What odd people education people be.

[GaYellowDawg]

84. You were a washout as a teacher.

Pretty obvious from all the bitterness. So you want to tell all of us dim bulbs which degrees you've got, and in which profession you're a wild success?

[BlooInBloo]

99. Your inferential abilities are about par for education folks....

Why you all are so interested in the details of the person speaking to you, rather than what the person is saying, is beyond me. I have graduate degrees in philosophy and mathematics, left philosophy quite some time ago (can't stand philosophers - lol!) - and am now a mathematical programmer, implementing prepayment projection models for a major financial institution. Wild success? (shrug) In the eye of the beholder, I suppose. I get by.

And I was, and remain, an excellent teacher. I've experienced few professional satisfactions to match getting the proverbial light bulb to go off in a kid's head.

[countingbluecars]

102. It's a wonder the kids don't pick up

on your mean spirit. It comes across loud and clear in your manner of debate here. I would think it would interfere with "the proverbial light bulb going off in a kid's head". Perhaps your manner is not as abrasive in front of a class as it is at the keyboard.

[BlooInBloo]

104. That's only a tough question (by your lights) because of your assumptions.

[countingbluecars]

108. Sad.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nonconformist]

119. Oh, I see! When you say teachers are the "bottom of the intellectual barrel", you mean yourself.

Makes PERFECT sense, and I don't disagree that you are intellectually inferior one bit.

[Solo_in_MD]

35. Won't help unless the seniority system is scrapped and pay for performance instituted

[stop the bleeding]

2. I would love to be in that meeting

when this article is brought up again and reminds Charlie of what he said, most interesting indeed.

[jody]

10. Will student test scores go up as teacher salaries rise? I doubt it because test scores have little

correlation with the amount of money spent per student.

I support raising teacher salaries but I don't expect an improvement in student performance.

[greenbriar]

11. what will help students is parents working with them at home

teaching them the basics first

respect
dedication
follow through
honesty
doing your best
caring about work

you know little things like that

[Maine-ah]

89. now, if I could nominate a single post, this would be it!

You nailed the problem right on the head.

My father was a language teacher for over 20 years. He'd go to work by 7 am, wasn't home until after 5 pm. Then, he'd stay up half the night grading & planning, as well on the weekends. He also took students on field trips out of the country every year. My Dad had to work a second job in the summers to support his family (4 kids & wife). He busted his ass, and was a very intelligent man.

I support our teachers, who have one of the most difficult jobs in this country, and should be paid as such.

[jody]

100. Sounds good to me. n/t

[Solo_in_MD]

46. So we increase costs with no ROE? How does that make sense?

[jody]

101. IMO every second of a school day is already used for something. If a state spends more money, then

someone should tell tax payers (a) what new topics will be taught and what topics will be dropped or (b) how teaching processes will be changed and how such changes are expected to improve student performance.

I believe those are the major things on which more education funds could be spent that might improve student performance.

I don't see how raising teacher salaries to over $100k by itself would improve student performance unless teachers are clearly incompetent and I don't believe they are.

I do support increasing teacher salaries so they are adequately paid.

[Bill McBlueState]

48. I'd like to see some proof of that assertion

"test scores have little correlation with the amount of money spent per student"

My understanding is that test scores in wealthy suburban districts are better than test scores in poor urban districts.

[AbbyR]

56. That probably has more to do with the economic situation of the kids

than the economic status of the school. Children from poor families are generally more worried about what's for dinner, or will they be mugged on the way home, than about their homework.

Test scores will improve when the situation outside the classroom improves, when parents get involved and support teachers and when (yes, money does help) class size decreases and staff is available to work with children who are significantly below grade level. Parents who have to work two or more jobs to feed their families, or who are on drugs, don't do too well at being supportive.

[Maine-ah]

90. perfect!

Test scores will improve when the situation outside the classroom improves, when parents get involved and support teachers and when (yes, money does help) class size decreases and staff is available to work with children who are significantly below grade level.

[Bill McBlueState]

95. that's all true

But the poster I was responding to claimed, "test scores have little correlation with the amount of money spent per student."

I'm pretty sure a correlation exists. Your post has some valuable insights into the *cause* of the correlation, but we shouldn't forget that in general, better-performing students come from better-funded schools.

It's an outrage that in a country where we have this "you can do anything if you work hard enough" ethos, the quality of the education you receive is tied so closely to the zip code you happen to have been born in. We need more equitable ways of funding schools.

[jody]

98. I've analyzed test scores and per-student spending and found spending could explain perhaps 3-5% of

variability in test scores between schools.

Ethnic groups also contribute little to explaining variability in test scores.

For available data the percent of free school lunches, a surrogate measure of poverty, explains 60-70% of variability in test scores between schools in a state.

[Bill McBlueState]

103. interesting

Is it not the case that schools with a lot of free-lunch participants also have lower per-student spending?

[jody]

107. Not always in the data I've analyzed but what you say might be true in some states. n/t

[WinkyDink]

14. Students are human beings, not products to tinker for "improved performance".

Having said that, and having taught h.s. English (primarily British lit) for decades, I became increasingly dismayed at what I perceived to be a lack of actual subject knowledge on the part of newbies coupled with their excessive enthusiasm for letting students teach each other, aka: the teacher's being "a guide on the side, not a sage on the stage".

So you can pay teachers $100,000, but maybe the students should get a tip.

[ProfessorGAC]

28. Interesting Point

Additionally, however, i would like to add that the education community needs to heed your advice. The overemphasis on pedagogical techniques over personality and knowledge has led to some significant issues in the field. (I never taught at the elementary or HS level, but my wife was a teacher for 30 years.)

In my experience, though, the best teachers were those who simply had a presence in the room and an indisputable knowledge of the subject matter. Kids respect someone who walks the walk as well as talks the talk.

The "methodologists" in the teaching field have done about as much harm as good by treating the classroom as a sociological experiment. Hence, i concur with your post title.
The Professor

[Solo_in_MD]

60. Until education can be reasonably measured including teacher performance metrics

as a key part of that measurement, the salaries argument is always going to be one of emotion vice facts.

[MadHound]

15. As much as I would like to see this happen, I wouldn't get your hopes up

For this will fall by the wayside as so many other promise always do.

Promising teachers hefty pay raises is all fine and dandy until it comes to actually doing so. With the teachers' salaries in the hands of the public, this isn't going to happen. Such a hike or hikes in taxes needed to generate the necessary revenue simply won't get by t he public. A sad situation all around, and frankly one that should be changed. First step, take teachers' salaries out of the hands of the voters, along with any such monetary decisions. In most cases it even takes a super majority to bring about such change, which is why pay hikes and infrastructure upgrades are never done. Thus, there are fewer good teachers, crumbling schools, less materials, less opportunities, etc. etc. And people wonder why our education system is going to hell. It is because their damn parents don't give enough of a damn to fund our schools properly, they are more concerned about their money than their kids. Damn, our priorities are fucked up.

[BreweryYardRat]

16. $20 says he'll never do that.

He was just spouting a lot of hot air. Even if he somehow meant it, state government here in Florida would never let the legislation through.

A lot of voters would probably love to see our education system get an overhaul, though, including teacher pay raises. Education here in Florida sucks balls.

[Double T]

24. Time for a REALITY CHECK!!!!!!

And WHO will pay for providing teachers with BOTH a SOLID PLATINUM SALARY AND RETIREMENT FUND COMBINED WITH GOLDEN GOOSE BENEFITS????

[goforit]

40. LOL!!!.... And now the GOP will start outsourcing teachers as well!!!

[Solo_in_MD]

44. We really do need to reform secondary education compensation

- Eliminate seniority as meaning anything
- Defined contribution, not defined benefit pensions
- Pay for performance. (If you are not doing something measurable, are you really doing anything)
- Delay/restrict/eliminate tenure (silly on the face of it for secoundary teachers)
- Encourage part time and outside instructors, at least in the upper division.

What this would do is open the profession to many more people and encourage the Gen X and Gen Y people to consider teaching for a period in their lives. It would also go a long way to breaking up the educrat monopoly that is really cripling invovation in the schools. We also need to bring back vocational education, but that is another thread.

[mcar]

50. Solid platinum??Golden goose benefits??

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

(wipes eyes) that was a good one.

$100,000 is not a platinum salary these days - a good salary, for sure, but what do other highly-educated professionals average salary-wise? Actually, what does the average 20-year government employee make these days. Their benefits are way, way better than a teachers, at least here in FL. Our health care premiums are ridiculously high and our retirement benefits will barely keep us above starvation level.

[Double T]

57. NOT TO OFFEND, BUT..............

come on out into the ugly, cold and cruel corporate world where EVERYTHING is being taken away; pensions, benefits, health care and wage increases; one paycheck at a time!!

[jsamuel]

61. so are you saying that government workers should suffer like corporate workers do

rather than fixing the corporate problems?

[Double T]

68. The corporate workers problem will become the government workers problem.........

as corporate incomes stagnate/decrease and government revenues decline. Governments at local, state and federal levels are ALL running deficits which are NOT sustainable. If corporations had the debt and deficits that governments continually maintain and escalate, the corporations would be bankrupt. 'WE' are THERE!

[Solo_in_MD]

70. Feds already do "suffer", but I am not sure its a bad thing

- Pay for performance plans are replacing the obsolete senority system
- Defined contribution (FERS) for all new employees since the mid 1980s
- Substantive contribution to health care costs
- New programs like long term care and vision care have to be self supporting
- Raises below the cost of living
- A76 based outsourcing

Its goal is to eliminate the golden handcuff problem and encourage people not to be lifetime government bureaucrats. A good thing IMO.

[mcar]

71. I've been there

for many years. My husband is the teacher; I was in the corporate world for many years before I started my own business (and don't even get me started about that).

Do you really think teachers' pensions and benefits are secure? I don't. Every year my husband gets a very small raise and every year his healthcare premium is raised even more, and our benefits decline. Wage increases - what are they? Teachers today make less than teachers did in the 1970s (adjusted for inflation and all that).

The corporate world is ugly and cruel - it's one of the reasons I left it. But I'd invite you to come into the cold, cruel world of teaching -- the job may be a bit more secure but you're treated like crap, have to deal with drugs, gangs, etc and consistently told by society that you are worth nothing and are no better than a babysitter. But, of course, you're 100% responsible for every child's academic success.

[Bill McBlueState]

97. want benefits?

Form a union.

White-collar corporate workers should understand that teachers have the benefits they have because they're unionized.

[Solo_in_MD]

66. You confuse highly educated with usefulness

There is no reason that a PhD in a useless subject should get paid more than an AA in a highly sought after one. Liberal arts majors (which most teachers are) make only 60% of what technical majors make for that reason. If someone choses a more academically challenging field, they would make more in the real world, and should in education as well. However, the industial model thinking are holding back both the teachers and the students. Schools need to:

- Have different pay scales for different degrees to attract teachers with technical degrees. English teachers are much easier to find than Math and Science teachers. Same with Special Ed.
- Dump seniority
- Defined contribution retirement plans vice defined benefit.

[Solo_in_MD]

72. They are too...

$100K is a rare salary for a liberal arts major unless they have gone into law or finance. The market won't support those kind of salaries given the amount of people with those degrees.

The average Federal civil service salary was $71K and change in 2006. The Federal workforce is top heavy in senior people, so that is a fairly good answer to your question about 20 year Govvies.

Federal benefits are clearly less than teachers. They are now under defined contribution vice defined benefit pensions. They just got vision care (self funded) and the dental insurance is almost worthless. By contrast we get excellent dental, health and vision insurance from my wife district. As a former teacher and former Fed, teacher benefits were and are much better.

[Maine-ah]

91. 100k per year?

depends on where you live. Median income where I live is 30k. 100k you're living like a king.

[donco6]

113. That's the point.

This is coming from a report called "Tough Choices, Tough Times." It calls for raising beginning salaries while scrapping pension plans. It also has a performance pay section (that's where the $100K comes in). As well as full year schools (not just year-round).

[ProdigalJunkMail]

30. we are missing part of the quote that is kind of important...

I would like to see teachers' salaries raised. They should be raised. Where do I think they should go? "Over $100,000. And I know that it sounds a bit extreme to some people, but I think it's important to set the bar high."

Is a hell of a lot different than :

When I am elected governor I will raise teachers' salaries! Where you ask... "Over $100,000. And I know that it sounds a bit extreme to some people, but I think it's important to set the bar high."

HUGH HUGE MORAN Level differences...

sP

[shadowknows69]

43. My mother was a teacher for 30 years

and I don't think she ever made more thank 40k a year tops. Luckliy for the children in my school system she has returned to teaching but they wouldn't hire her back with full salary. She's at permanent sub pay or some shit. I think its a travesty but she's happy. My mother is one of those teachers that people remember, that people cite as a major influence on their lives. One of the greats.

[ProfessorGAC]

59. My Wife Too

She never made jack-squat. She really barely made enough to live off of, as a special ed teacher, but since i made enough for both of us, her salary was extra money, extra savings, that sort of thing.

But, she didn't do it for the money. At the same time, she never worked in the summer, enjoyed her holiday time off, so there were some "plusses" with the "minuses". She was a natural born teacher and the pedagogical classes were mostly a waste of her time.

If they are going to raise salaries looking for the best and brightest, they need to start at the fundamental level and have the educational community figure out a better way to qualify new teachers and evaluate long-standing teachers. Pure pedagogy and little personal development and sociologic dymanic training does not make a good teacher.
The Professor

[shadowknows69]

65. Kudos to your wife Professor

due to my mother and my father, also a teacher, I have no greater respect for any other vocation. I wish I'd had the salt to pursue it myself at times.

[Solo_in_MD]

67. As is my wife

She has played the game, gotten the degrees and all of that, but fears for the future of the schools if fundemental reform is not made.

[jab105]

49. LOL!

I'm lucky to be getting 30:)

[malaise]

105. Rebecca

:yourock: :yourock:

[donco6]

114. Amazing how quickly RW planks come out in educ. topics.

"Get rid of tenure."

"Defined contribution rather than defined benefit pension plans."

"Let the market determine pay - higher pay for harder-to-find teachers."

"Introduce competition, then schools will improve."

Interesting how everyone is an expert on how to fix education.

[Solo_in_MD]

118. Something has to be done and those proposals are not all tied to the RW

Pensions issue in particular really do need to change both for controlling long term costs, but attracting new teachers as well. The current approach is a golden handcuff that at least the Feds have abandoned.

Higher pay for some specialities is already a fact and is proving to be successful in areas like special ed.

Tenure, as it was originally intended, has no place in a high school.





The above and others have their supporters inside the educational community. The big guns don't speak for all of us.

[donco6]

120. Thankfully I won't have to abandon mine.

I have a defined benefit program I wouldn't trade for anything. Far superior to any defined contribution program. Can't imagine why anyone would want to trade it.

[Solo_in_MD]

121. Not advocating trading it, though some low time Feds were forced to in the 80s.

The reality is that there is a finite tax base, esp in places with Prop 13 like tax controls. School districts are therefore inherently funding limited. As the defined benefit pensions rise, the available funds for education will by necessity shrink. It is a fixed sum game.

Another point to consider is that the norm for Gen X and Gen Y is to have multiple careers over their lifetime. The defined contribution is a portable pension that moves with you and is the right answer for a mobile workforce. The defined benefit approach is a left over of the industrial model where you went to work for one employer and stayed there forever. Teaching and government and state/local governments are about the only place that is true anymore. The Feds are actively discouraging long careers these days.

When (not if) we decide to bail from California, one of my primary criteria will be a locale where there is not the crippling debt from defined benefit pensions hanging over the taxpayers. Right now the nearest place would look to be Baja. Humor aside, it really could get that bad, which means major actions will be taken to pacify the taxpayers at the expense of what will be perceived (rightly or wrongly) as free loaders. This is part and parcel of what we as a society will have to face as the boomers start to retire in large numbers, and not just public employees with defined benefit pensions.

[RebelOne]

122. My daughter is a middle school teacher in South Florida.

Sure would be nice if a raise came through. Teaching is a tough job. I wouldn't do it.

[Marrah_G]

123. My father taught high school for almost 50 years

Anyone who thinks being a teacher is all about test scores has alot to learn. Teaching is a skill in itself. It is the ability to communicate ideas and provoke thought in the younger generation. To prepare them for adult life. Teachers work tirelessly.

Growing up my father was always at work. He taught Math and Computer Science in Massachusetts. He spent almost every waking moment teaching his classes, coaching basketball, mentoring clubs after school, etc. His weekends were spend grading and planning. Often times our kitchen table would be filled with kids getting extra help for SATs. I spent my summers at his school, when I was young I took classes (just for fun) when I was older I helped him teach summer school. He rarely took a sick day. He never became rich off teaching, but what he did made a difference in so many lives in a positive way.

As far as intelligence? He was brilliant, he has his Masters, but more importantly he was passionate about what he did and always strove to be the best he could be. He could have done anything, but he chose to teach.

This man brought computers into public school when they were huge wall units. He taught programming before the invention of the PC. He made a deal with Apple when they first came out and aquired computers for the school. He knew this would be the future and he wanted his kids to have the best shot in life.

My aunt on my fathers side and an uncle on my mothers side also taught in the same town. There was not a holiday that past or a birthday celebrationg that my Aunt did not have her bag in front of her, grading papers and planning future lessons.

Anytime I see people slamming public school teachers it just infuriates me. I spent my life surrounded by men and women who chose this for thier profession because they love it and because they want to make the world a better place.

I am proud to say my daughter is planning a career as a high school history teacher.