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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:30 AM
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Here's what 3,137 looks like.
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 03:44 AM by Clarkie1
It's a worthwhile excercise to scroll through this very slowly to get the full effect.

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Senator Clinton stated today that those who think that here IWR vote was the most important issue should vote for someone else. I couldn't agree more. We need to hold everyone responsibe for this accountable. There is no greater issue. We honor the sacrifice of those who have died by holding our leaders accountable for so causually sending our men and women off to war.
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RL3AO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. So sad...
Just look at every one of those and think to your self that it represents a human life. Not only did...er, have 3137 people lost their lives, but 3137 people were taken away from husbands and wives and mothers and fathers and sons and daughters and friends.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Good point...we should think of all the families as well.
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 03:41 AM by Clarkie1
Very sad.

We need to let our leaders know that anyone who enabled this unnecessary war will not have our vote. It would be tragic for America to elect someone who enabled this as our next President.

I'm not just saying that for political reasons...I deeply believe it. We need to hold everyone who was involved with enabling this to happen accountable. Anything less would be dishonoring those who have given their lives.
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. self-delete
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 04:05 AM by Alamom
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NMMNG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
2. K & R
Profoundly disturbing.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. That is an awesome display!
Thank you for posting this.

:patriot:
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liberal renegade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
5. 6274
boots to the ass for whoever voted for the IWR. Vote for the peace candidate!
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. I couldn't agree more
The Peace candidate:
http://www.alternet.org/story/15628/

The First Peace Candidate of the 2008 Presidential Election – Dennis Kucinich
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=17998
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:00 AM
Response to Original message
6. I agree... I really wanted HRC to run in the past
Now I just can't forget the actions of her and others. This war is so tragic, not just because of all the lives lost... but there is no ideal way to get out of this mess. Every option will lead to chaos.
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chaz4jazz Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:06 AM
Response to Original message
8. This is worth reading (re: Sen. Clinton)
NY Times, February 15, 2007
Op-Ed Columnist


No Apology Needed
By David Brooks

Far be it from me to get in the middle of a liberal purge, but would anybody mind if I pointed out that the calls for Hillary Clinton to apologize for her support of the Iraq war are almost entirely bogus?

I mean, have the people calling for her apology actually read the speeches she delivered before the war? Have they read her remarks during the war resolution debate, when she specifically rejected a pre-emptive, unilateral attack on Saddam? Did they read the passages in which she called for a longer U.N. inspections regime and declared, "I believe international support and legitimacy are crucial"?

If they went back and read what Senator Clinton was saying before the war, they'd be surprised, as I was, by her approach. And they'd learn something, as I did, about what kind of president she would make.

The Iraq war debate began in earnest in September 2002. At that point Clinton was saying in public what Colin Powell was saying in private: emphasizing the need to work through the U.N. and build a broad coalition to enforce inspections.

She delivered her Senate resolution speech on Oct. 10. It was Clintonian in character. On the one hand, she rejected the Bush policy of pre-emptive war. On the other hand, she also rejected the view that the international community "should only resort to force if and when the United Nations Security Council approves it." Drawing on the lessons of Bosnia, she said sometimes the world had to act, even if the big powers couldn't agree.

She sought a third way: more U.N. resolutions, more inspections, more diplomacy, with the threat of force reserved as a last resort. She was triangulating, but the Senate resolution offered her a binary choice. She voted yes in order to give Powell bipartisan leverage at the U.N.

This is how she's always explained that vote, and I confess that until now, I've regarded her explanation as a transparent political dodge. Didn't everyone know this was a war resolution? But now, having investigated her public comments, I think diplomatic leverage really was on her mind. I also know, from a third person, that she was spending a lot of time with Powell and wanted to help.

On Nov. 8, 2002, the Security Council passed a unanimous resolution threatening Saddam with "serious consequences" if he didn't disarm.

The next crucial period came in March 2003, as the U.S. battled France over the second Security Council resolution. Clinton's argument at this point was that inspections were working and should be given more time. "It is preferable that we do this in a peaceful manner through coercive inspection," she said on March 3, but went on, "At some point we have to be willing to uphold the United Nations resolutions." Then she added, "This is a very delicate balancing act."

On March 17, Bush gave Saddam 48 hours to disarm or face attack. Clinton tried to be critical of the Bush policy while being deferential to the office of the presidency. She clearly had doubts about Bush's timing, but she kept emphasizing that from her time in the White House, she knew how unhelpful it was for senators to be popping off in public on foreign policy.

At one press event in New York, she nodded when Charles Rangel said Bush had failed at the U.N. But when reporters asked Clinton to repeat what Rangel had just said, she bit her tongue. On March 17, as U.S. troops mobilized, she issued her strongest statement in support of the effort.

Clinton's biggest breach with the liberal wing actually opened up later, in the fall of 2003. Most liberals went into full opposition, wanting to see Bush disgraced. Clinton ­ while an early critic of the troop levels, the postwar plans and all the rest ­ tried to stay constructive. She wanted to see America and Iraq succeed, even if Bush was not disgraced.

When you look back at Clinton's thinking, you don't see a classic war supporter. You see a person who was trying to seek balance between opposing arguments. You also see a person who deferred to the office of the presidency. You see a person who, as president, would be fox to Bush's hedgehog: who would see problems in their complexities rather than in their essentials; who would elevate procedural concerns over philosophical ones; who would postpone decision points for as long as possible; and who would make distinctions few heed.

Today, the liberal wing of the Democratic Party believes that the world, and Hillary Clinton in particular, owes it an apology. If she apologizes, she'll forfeit her integrity. She will be apologizing for being herself.
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Empty words.
Everyone...Byrd, Kennedy, Feingold, and so many others knew it was a vote for war and said so when they voted NO.

So did Senator Clinton when she voted YES.
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Kittycat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. Talk is cheap.
Votes are what count.
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. It is very sad and sobering, but it does look like you ARE using it.
I have seen these posted before, respectfully, but never USED to damn one candidate and promote another.

Last paragraphs of the Senators IWR Speech.

Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

>

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort.


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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Empty words.
She knew what she was doing as much as did Byrd, Kennedy, Feingold and many others who voted against the war.
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 05:03 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Like these.........
These quotes may be wrong. I have not researched Wes Clark at all. Since so much is being posted about "the Vote". I thought I would check out some of the other's opinions. Feel Free to correct any mistakes or BS. If these have been debunked, it was before I joined here and I apologize, profoundly.


Published on Friday, September 19, 2003 by the New York Times
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0919-01.htm



Clark Says He Would Have Voted for War
by Adam Nagourney

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla., Sept. 18 — Gen. Wesley K. Clark said today that he would have supported the Congressional resolution that authorized the United States to invade Iraq, even as he presented himself as one of the sharpest critics of the war effort in the Democratic presidential race.

General Clark also said in an interview that he would probably oppose President Bush's request for $87 billion to finance the recovery effort in Iraq, though he said he could see circumstances in which he might support sending even more money into the country.

>
General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.



>

On the question of Iraq's supposed weapons of mass destruction, Clark seemed remarkably confident of their existence. Clark told CNN's Miles O'Brien that Saddam Hussein "does have weapons of mass destruction." When O'Brien asked, "And you could say that categorically?" Clark was resolute: "Absolutely" (1/18/03). When CNN's Zahn (4/2/03) asked if he had any doubts about finding the weapons, Clark responded: "I think they will be found. There's so much intelligence on this."


Published on Thursday, April 10, 2003 by the Times/UK
Anti-War Candidate?
What Must Be Done to Complete a Great Victory
by General Wesley Clark



As for the political leaders themselves, President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt. And especially Mr Blair, who skillfully managed tough internal politics, an incredibly powerful and sometimes almost irrationally resolute ally, and concerns within Europe. Their opponents, those who questioned the necessity or wisdom of the operation, are temporarily silent, but probably unconvinced. And more tough questions remain to be answered.


These remarks plus many others can be found on numerous sites.


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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Thank you for your post.
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 06:01 PM by Clarkie1
Clark has on many occasions made clear that he would not have voted for a blank-check resolution because there was no imminent threat, and any resolution should require the President to come back to the Congress for authorization to go to war if and when the threat became imminent. Furthermore, it is clear from the remarks of Senator Kennedy (below) that Senators who took the time to look at the evidence and ask the tough questions knew that there was no imminent threat.

KENNEDY: No. The best vote I cast in the United States Senate was...

KING: The best?

KENNEDY: The best vote, best vote I cast in the United States Senate (INAUDIBLE).

KING: In your life?

KENNEDY: Absolutely.

KING: Was not to go to Iraq?

KENNEDY: Yes, not to go to Iraq.

KING: Why did you vote against?

KENNEDY: Well, I'm on the Armed Services Committee and I was inclined to support the administration when we started the hearings in the Armed Services Committee. And, it was enormously interesting to me that those that had been -- that were in the armed forces that had served in combat were universally opposed to going.

I mean we had Wes Clark testify in opposition to going to war at that time. You had General Zinni. You had General (INAUDIBLE). You had General Nash. You had the series of different military officials, a number of whom had been involved in the Gulf I War, others involved in Kosovo and had distinguished records in Vietnam, battle-hardened combat military figures. And, virtually all of them said no, this is not going to work and they virtually identified...

KING: And that's what moved you?

KENNEDY: And that really was -- influenced me to the greatest degree. And the second point that influenced me was in the time that we were having the briefings and these were classified. They've been declassified now. Secretary Rumsfeld came up and said "There are weapons of mass destruction north, south, east and west of Baghdad." This was his testimony in the Armed Services Committee.

And at that time Senator Levin, who is an enormously gifted, talented member of the Armed Services Committee said, "Well, we're now providing this information to the inspectors aren't we?" This is just before the war. "Oh, yes, we're providing that." "But are they finding anything?" "No."

Because the answer was because they're moving things, because when we tell the team they're all infiltrated by Saddam's people and they're leaking that so that's the reason we're not finding anything.

They started giving all the places where we said there were places and they still couldn't find any. And at the end of now, history will show we never gave any information to the inspection team at all.

But I kept saying, "Well, if they're not finding any of the weapons of mass destruction, where is the imminent threat to the United States security?" It didn't make sense.

There were probably eight Senators on the Friday before the Thursday we voted on it. It got up to 23. I think if that had gone on another -- we had waited another ten days, I think you may have had a different story.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/20/lkl.01.html

At Clark's testimony before the House armed services committee, he made clear that the Congress should not cede war powers to the President with a "blank check" type of resolution:

"The resolution need not at this point authorize the use of force, but simply agree on the intent to authorize the use of force, if other measures fail...Force should be used as the last resort; after all diplomatic means have been exhausted, unless information indicates that further delay would present an immediate risk to the assembled forces and organizations. This action should not be categorized as “preemptive.”

http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/HearingsPreparedstatements/hasc-clark-092602.htm
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. Clark did believe Saddam had WMD.
CNN April 2003:

CLARK: We have to get all the way into Baghdad. So it looks like the airpower's done a good job so far. The resistance on the ground seem to be less than what anyone has anticipated. So it's time to move ahead, keep formations in good order, find the centers of resistance, get to Saddam's headquarters, take them out, locate the bunkers.

But here's the thing, Paula, we have to understand, too, about this. This is a bigger problem than simply winning a military victory. It's not the defeat of Saddam's forces that are ultimately going to give us the win in Iraq; it's really three sets of things. First, restoring the integrity of the international institutions we went into Iraq to help protect, like the United Nations. Remember, Saddam violated the U.N. Security Council Resolution, and secondly, it's the idea of doing a decisive victory, getting rid of the weapons of mass destruction, not letting them fall into other people's hands. And finally, we're going to have to handle post-war Iraq in a way that doesn't let it become a recruiting ground for Al Qaeda or seething guerrilla war. So we've got big work ahead.

ZAHN: Let's go through each one by one, restoring integrity of the institutions. How long of a process are you talking about here? And how do you do that?

CLARK: We don't know. I think first it starts with the personal chemistry between the leaders. Lots of broken China so far in the diplomacy. Colin Powell's already over to Turkey. He's coming back to Brussels. He clearly sees the problem. He's working it. It's going to take the full effort of the United States government to do this.

And I think our allies, even countries like France, want to help repair this breach. But it takes work on both sides of the Atlantic.

ZAHN: Then you talked about the challenge of getting in there and destroying weapons of mass destruction.

CLARK: We haven't found any yet.

ZAHN: Do you think coalition forces will, or do you think Saddam Hussein will destroy some of these materials before the troops get there, or do you think they have potentially been destroyed over the past couple of weeks?

CLARK: Or hidden somewhere.

ZAHN: Yes.

CLARK: There's some been some reporting that they were in Syria, hidden in Syria. But the honest truth is, when we get inside, we've got to go through these palaces, we've got to find the files, we've got to look at this special security organization that Saddam had, and we've got track down the individuals who actually have the knowledge of where this stuff is. This is a bureaucratic state. There are records. We will find it.

ZAHN: You have no doubts then that weapons of mass destruction will ultimately be found, whether you find them hidden in Iraq, or find them in Syria?

CLARK: I think they will be found. There's so much intelligence on this.

ZAHN: General Wesley Clark, always appreciate your perspective. Thanks for dropping by in person for a change.

CLARK: Thank you, Paula.


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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Which of course is not the issue.
Edited on Mon Feb-19-07 06:58 PM by Clarkie1
The issue is giving the President a blank-check in the face of no imminent threat to launch a premptive war.

It's funny I was going to say that believing or not beieving Saddam had WMD was not the issue in my post, but I thought that would be obvious to the person I was responding to. WMD does not equal an imminent threat.

I will not respond to any further posts by you in this thread. I have a long history of responding to your distortions and constant changing of the subject.

And I'm done with it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. About that so-called
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. K & R Clarkie1
:patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

I usually put 4 of these here - guess why?
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Joey Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. Hillary sold out - I wont vote for her
I wish she wasn't running.
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Hosnon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
18. I think that's 3,139.
24 in a full row.

3137 / 24 = 130 full rows.

130 * 24 = 3120, leaving 17 left over.

The last row has 19.

Yes...I'm bored...
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northofdenali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-19-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I love you, your effort, your compassion, and your talent -
this one took my breath away. I am K&R'ing, bookmarking and emailing to everyone on my email list, including those whose political views are the exact opposite. Thank you.
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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-20-07 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
22. Makes me think of those hills of endless white identical stones at Arlington.
...stones set out in regimented rows, as far as the eye can see. :cry:
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