Regarding the need to own a gun

[Cyrano]

Let me preface this by saying that this does not refer to all gun owners. But it refers to far too many that I’ve come across.

After leaving the army, I owned a gun for a while. I used it at two different ranges – one indoor and one outdoor. After moving to a different state, I again went to two different ranges.

But here’s the disturbing part. In conversations in which I participated or overheard at each and every range, I reached the conclusion that far too many people would actually welcome the opportunity to legally use their guns to shoot someone.

Statements like, “If anyone ever breaks into my house, it will be their last break in,” or “If someone had had a gun at (some school or mall tragedy) that guy could have been stopped on the spot,” or, “Anyone tries to carjack me is going to be one sorry corpse,” were the types of comments I heard on a regular basis.

I know that many gun owners will disagree about welcoming the opportunity to use their gun, but take a moment and engage in a bit of self-examination. Would you really like to be in a situation where you could use your gun to legally shoot someone? It might not be something you’d say out loud, but be honest with yourself about your innermost thoughts on this.

I no longer own a gun and if lack of one causes my death or injury at some critical moment, so be it. I personally think I have a better chance of winning the lotto or being struck by lightening than of being in a situation (outside of the military) where I’d need a gun.

This has not been posted as flame bait, so I’d like to hear some honest, thoughtful replies.

[Vincardog]

1. I own several guns. I use them with some regularity to shoot varmints and

occasionally to put down a old dog. I never expect to off some perp.

[catnhatnh]

54. Sorry, But the "Varmint" in this piece...

is the Bastard who would shoot a dog in the head because he is too fucking cheap to pay for euthenasia...

[Vincardog]

61. I have done it both ways. IMO it is kinder to have them gone in a snap.

If you would rather have your animal terrified by a needle jab and then die of suffocation,
I promise will not to judge YOU.

[Uben]

2. I own 19 guns

Most were inherited from my dad when he died. The only use I really have is to shoot copperheads and rabid skunks. We have both here in Texas. I also use them to shoot cormorants on our lake. We have a permit from the Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept, and I act as an agent for them for harvesting the birds. These protected water-fowl can decimate a fishery in as little as a month or two under cetain conditions. I must qualify that staement by letting you know that only two lakes in Texas have these permits.
These birds can eat two pounds of fish a day, and they come in flocks of hundreds! To be honest, we mainly just scare the birds off, because they are so difficult to shoot. They can fly 60 mph!


edit: all guns are under lock and key, and none are loaded (though all guns should be considered loaded)

[slackmaster]

27. OT - Are cormorants edible?

I assume they'd be kind of tough.

[monktonman]

33. Very boney and not very tastey.

I suppose if you had to eat them but otherwise
I'd rather eat a paper bag.

[Brother_1969]

3. You may not have posted this as flame bait

but you can expect the NRA lifers here to blast you.

You are, of course, right in your premise that there is never a reason to own a gun and all private ownership of guns should be disallowed. The 2nd ammendment should be repealed. Once we have a Democrat president and control both houses of congress, we can hopefully make some progress on this issue.

[bluestateguy]

5. Trolling 101

You'll have to be a little more subtle than that.

It's hard work, but you'll figure it out with practice.

[Crunchy Frog]

22. Yes! As soon as we control all branches of government

we shall repeal the 2nd ammendment. Mwahahahaha.

[monktonman]

8. Are we reading the same post?

Where in the OP does it say

"there is never a reason to own a gun and all private ownership of guns should be disallowed. The 2nd ammendment should be repealed. Once we have a Democrat president and control both houses of congress, we can hopefully make some progress on this issue."?

Please show me.

[rockymountaindem]

14. Go back to Freeperville

and work on your trolling skills. Maybe when you've learned not to try and blend in by using the term "Democrat president" you'll have more success.

[piedmont]

20. Either a troll or a MASSIVE authoritarian.

Either way, you won'e find much support here.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2429943#2430010
"6. They are an illegal and rouge agency.
They work for the benefit of corporations and should be disbanded.

The control of corporations over government agencies is one of many reasons why corporations, too, should be outlawed.

Friends, there is much work to do. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2422062#2422076
"1. We need to tax the rich MUCH more
Good post.

Personally, I would like to see a maximum income ceiling in this country. The limit could be whatever but I would like to see something like $200,000 per household. Above that limit, there should be a 100% income tax and that money could be used to pay for the needs of the less fortunate: health care, food, housing, clothing, transportation, etc.

The rich and greedy would oppose this but caring people would not. "

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3807316#3807447
"10. Anybody that does not vote for HIillary
is an idiot.

This is obvious. "

[immoderate]

36. Thanks for digging. I thought it was just a jerk.

Now I think it's Karl Rove.

--IMM

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

47. ... a "rouge" agency ... ?

I'd turn red if I spelled it like that.

:blush:

:rofl:

[Mojorabbit]

4. I use mine for target practice

and while the crime rate around me is skyrocketing I seriously doubt I 'd ever have to use one for that purpose. I don't need to have guns. I want to have them and I have the right under the constitution to have them. I firmly believe it does help keep the govt in check even if they have greater fire power.

[Warpy]

6. I live out west where guns are just another tool

out in the boonies. Not only do bears have to be scared away from the trash cans and rattlesnakes dispatched from the places the kids play and cougars encouraged to find alternate places to mark their territory, that elk or deer once a year in the freezer provides a very much needed portion of a family's protein. This is a poor state.

I've noticed the gunloonery you have, but it's mostly in the suburbs, not in the city or out in the country. City people are already well aware of what guns do to other people and most don't want any part of it. Country people don't want to waste the ammo on anything they can't eat. Those are gross generalizations, of course, since loons can live anywhere--with any raw statistic, there are always those who exist outside the norms.

I think it has something to do with the philosophy that has people move to th burbs to escape crime, only to find they brought it with them. They fantasize about ending crime permanently by killing all the criminals.

Yeah, like that's going to work.

[jclientelle]

44. Guns are tools

I do believe that in the country guns are usually tools. I myself have welcomed deer meat when money was short. Guns can also be used in domestic violence or alcohol fueled disputes among friends.

In the city, they are usually associated with drugs and crime. In the suburbs, I have no idea what the purpose is. I think they give a false feeling of power or security. I have read that the chances of using a gun to defend self or family are much smaller than the chances of using a gun to kill or harm self or family.

So no matter where guns are, they should be used soberly. Gun safety education is important. I see no need for assault weapons in the hands of civilians. I see no need for large stashes of guns in the hands of civilians. I think that guns should be tracked like any other controlled substance. I worked in a hospital and know that can be done. I would like to see us have a reasonable moderate approach to gun ownership.

I hate to see the gun issue divide city and country and divert us from concerns we have in common, like saving our kids from war, having jobs, paying mortgages, health care, helping the small farmer to stay in business etc. etc.

[Tejas]

46. priorities

As you say, drug control works fine in a hospital but given the situation outside the lobby doors it's a completely different world. Drug control in society, the War on Drugs, hasn't worked anywhere near as predicted/expected and has put priorities such as the ones mentioned in your last paragraph on the back burner.

Don't get me wrong, drugs are out of hand, but in the same breath I have to say guns aren't. That said, a "War on Guns" would have about the same effect. It's entirely possible that even more important things would go on the back burner.

[derby378]

65. But can you tell me what an "assault weapon" is?

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[Flatulo]

7. How do you get the guns out of the hands of criminals?

[Cyrano]

10. My OP didn't mention getting guns out the hands of anyone.

[Flatulo]

42. It was sort or a rhetorical question...

It seems kind of lopsided if only people with bad intentions (robbery, car-jacking, rape or murder) would have guns. By definition, criminals would not give up the tools of their trade.

If you rely on the police to save you, you're screwed. They won't be there whrn someone is trying to kill you.

[Angela Shelley]

9. My honest, thoughtful reply

People in this country have been "backed into corners" for the longest time.

"Religious institutions" preach that everyone is sinning all of the time. Either you do what we tell you to do, or you will burn in hell; by the way, don´t ask any questions, the leader has all of the answers.

"Government officials" keeps reminding people that they don´t have a voice. Either you do what we tell you to do, or you will rot in jail or never get a job again. Don´t worry, the leader will protect you from the enemies.

Americans are constantly "judging each other", telling each other what´s right, what´s wrong, what´s legal, what´s not ... there´s just so little "live and let live" in our society.

and the list goes on ...

So people turn into spineless, scaredy-cat, little chickens who soon forget how wonderful life on this planet can be, which leads to apathy.

People who say "I would use my gun in a second" are just trying to remind themselves that in an emergency, they would definitely be "strong", going so far as to kill another human being, they are reminding themselves that in an emergency, they would have the strength to pull the trigger.

My cousin told me "I have a gun in my house to protect myself from the government", and I was floored. In front of his 4 children, he stated "I will use all means to protect my family". He doesn´t have the courage to voice his opinion in an internet forum, but he has a gun and ammunition in his house, just in case this country turns into a police state.

It´s FEAR which makes people want to own a gun.

edit: except for those who use the gun as a "tool" to protect their houses from wild animals, relieve sick animals from pain, to hunt for food, etc.

[Cyrano]

12. Nice post, Angela. You may be right about fear, but I believe it's

also a false sense of power.

[Angela Shelley]

16. Verified in post 15

[Flatulo]

43. Hhu?

> he stated "I will use all means to protect my family".

You seem to state this with irony or surprise. Exactly what means would you avail people of to protect their family?

I stand with your brother. I would use whatever force necessary to stop anyone who threatened bodily harm to myself or my loved one, or under the right circumstances, even a total stranger.

You can feel free to volunteer to die, but please don't interfere with my right to to continue to exist.

[mitchum]

11. I am very honest with myself...

if someone were breaking into my house or attempting to carjack me, I would dispatch them...and sleep like a baby. Choices have consequences. Do I long for the opportunity? No.
Do I agree with “If someone had had a gun at (some school or mall tragedy) that guy could have been stopped on the spot”? Not at all.

That being said, I don't understand the fetishization of guns. That is something which SOME members of BOTH sides of the debate do . A gun is essentially a tool. It would be odd to fetishize a screwdriver or a coffee maker. It is equally odd to fetishize guns.

[Madrone]

13. Although I own a small aresenal myself, I definitely do not see it as a NEED.

I like to go target shooting once in awhile. Don't do it as often as I'd like. I have a concealed carry permit, but I've never carried, concealed or otherwise, other than loading a couple in the car to head out to target practice. And that doesn't count as concealed carry.

As for home protection - that's laughable. By the time I dug out a firearm, located the ammunition, and got it loaded - the statute of limitations for prosecution of a burgler would have long passed. :rofl: Dude could have been living in Maui for years by the time I got everything together.

IF I was locked and loaded, at the ready, when a crime against me was committed I'm not sure I COULD shoot someone. If it came down to me or them in a true crisis situation and I could keep my composure enough I'd try for a kneecap before I tried to take the life of another individual.

Now, if I was carrying and out on a hike with my dog and encountered a mountain lion or a bear and either my life or my dog's were in danger ... I'd do what I could to save us both. I've yet to carry on any hike I've ever been on though .... the idea of walking around packing heat just feels.....weird.

[madville]

15. I carry a firearm everywhere I go

I personally think I have a better chance of winning the lotto or being struck by lightening than of being in a situation (outside of the military) where I’d need a gun.



I've had my concealed carry license for years, I'm in the habit of having a handgun on me nowadays. I hope I never have to use it but it makes me feel better to have it, I like knowing I have some options, also always have a knife of some type on my person as well, especially when jogging or walking and I don't carry a firearm.

I think the odds of being a victim of violent crime are pretty good compared to the things mentioned above:

Struck by lightning in the next year - 1:6,300,000

Odds of hitting the Florida lottery - 1:23,000,000

Odds of being the victim of violent crime in the next year - 1:50


It's great that we still have the limited freedom/option in most parts of the country to carry a weapon for self defense, just like it is great that you have the option not to. If I get killed, raped or assaulted I at least want every advantage I can get to defend myself but like I said before I hope it never happens to me, anybody I know, or a complete stranger because I really hate violence but wouldn't hesitate to defend myself, family or friends.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm
http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

[Angela Shelley]

17. Imagine leaving your house one day, without your handgun

Would you make it through the day?

[madville]

23. Sure I would make it through the day

I can't carry a firearm on my person or in my vehicle when I have to visit some of the nearby military installations or schools as part of my job. Thats about the only time I have to remember to leave it at home.

[monktonman]

21. Why do you have to hide your gun? n/t

[madville]

26. No open carry in Florida

Has to be concealed. Open carry is only allowed when hunting, fishing, in your place of business, or on private property.

[monktonman]

32. Oh, ok, florida. that makes sense.

Just like everything else down there.

[monktonman]

18. Mine is bigger than yours and I can pee farther with it.

Whenever my guy friends are sitting around having a pissing contest about who is tougher with a gun I always blast them for being macho idiots and tell them that if the big bad wolf came to blow their house down they'd cower in the bedroom like a little girl. puh-leeze. Thats just some dumb-ass, penis envy shit talk. Little boys making excuses for their love of everything explosive.

I own a few guns but I dont go for that "protecting my home" garbage. When people ask me why I choose to keep a firearm in my home I tell them the truth.... GUNS ARE FUN!
Why bullshit? guns are alot of fun to play with. I like going to the range to squeeze off a few rounds. There is a farm down the road from me where the guy has a skeet set up and a few areas off to the side where you can go to just blow holes in shit. What a blast! While my friends are sitting at home all pasty white and bloated playing video games, I'm out getting my jollies shooting clays or punching holes in targets. I dont need excuses. I'm a grown man and if I want to own a gun to use as a toy I sure as heck will.

I went to visit my folks in north eastern Ohio for thanksgiving. I saw this ad on television about how Ohio now has a concealed carry law and how people were signing up for it in record numbers or whatever. Got me thinking about how hiding a gun on your person is so much bullshit. Supporters say it will make would be criminals think twice before committing a crime. Yeah, ok.
I look at that in the context of to scenarios...

1) robber walks into corner store, looks around, shoots someone to make a point about how desperate he is, and you whip out your carefully hidden penis er...I mean hand gun and lay the robber out dead.
result...one robber dead, one innocent bystander murdered.

2) robber walks into corner store, takes a look around, see's you standing there with your pistol proudly displayed in your hip strapped holster and decides maybe today's not the day to rob this store. Result....innocent by-stander lives, robber lives, store is not robbed. everyones happy.

After I thought about that for awhile I started thinking about some of the questions you bring up in the OP. Do I really want to kill someone? Would I really like to be in a position where I could legally kill someone? No not really. The way I've always looked at it is that if someone is desperate enough to rob you, he probably needs it a whole lot more than you do. Maybe his need is bullshit, but thats a different story that requires an honest look at where we are as a society. I'd also never want to be in a position of having to shoot someone to protect my family. In that scenario, someone I love could get killed. Why would I want that?
I cant help but think, when you hear all this talk about "that will be his last break-in" or "one sorry corpse" theres an element of "them" in there. You know...."them". To me, these are essentially racist statements thinly disguised as concern for law and order. If a guy said he wanted to shoot "niggers" he'd be labeled a racist but if he says he wants to shoot a robber (in his mind only black people are criminals) than thats OK. Think I'm full of it?....ok let me conclude by asking this...When the last time you heard of a black man attending an NRA meeting?
Also, isnt there some connection between the outlawing of the KKK and the birth of the NRA? I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure one of the first things the NRA did was lobby congress to make it illegal for a black man to own a gun. Or maybe I'm mis-informed?

[Brian Fearn]

25. People want "concealed carry" because they think "open carry" would make them a target for criminals

[monktonman]

31. yeah ok, I'm gonna go after the guy I know is carrying a gun?

Sorry, that doesnt pass the laugh test.
Just like the criminals go after the cops instead of running away?

[Tejas]

45. Not as a general rule but

it does in fact happen to LEO's.

(Youtube is only a click away)

[Irreverend IX]

56. Here's a more likely scenario...

Say that concealed carry is illegal but open carry is not. A crook enters a store intending to rob it, walks around, cases the place, and notes one guy with a gun on his side. The crook pulls his own illegally concealed gun, shoots the open-carrying guy in the back, and has his way with the rest of the people in the store, secure in the knowledge that they have no means to resist him.

Also, the NRA was founded in 1871 in New York by former Union generals. Somehow, I don't think they had much sympathy for the KKK. The NRA founders wanted an organization to teach marksmanship to citizens, having observed that the Union soldiers from big cities were woefully unfamiliar with guns.

And finally, can't you come up with putdowns more original than DURR HURR HURR GUN OWNERS HAVE SMALL PENIS!!!11!!

[monktonman]

70. I guess I have a small penis as well?

re-read the post.
dur frikin hur

[ovidsen]

19. I basically agree with you.

I've never owned a gun and only used an old .22 caliber rifle my grandfather had to go "plinking" (shooting at cans and bottles) when I was a teenager. But while I see no reason for me to get a firearm, I'm against sweeping restrictions against gun ownership.

If you feel safer with a handgun, fine. But I've read where handgun users are more likely to shoot themselves or accidentally shoot a relative or friend than use it on an assailant.

I've lived in cities (Chicago, NYC, DC and currently Atlanta) where gun crimes are considered a serious problem. But I can't help but wonder how real the problem is, or if it's being hyped by some politicians and the "if it bleeds, it leads" mass media mentality. It's true that firearm crimes are more prevalent in American cities than they are in places like London, Paris or Toronto. But does that mean you're playing Russian roulette every time you walk out of your home? I think not.

To put this in perspective, I used to work for years on the overnight and early morning shifts for broadcast media outlets in New York. I rode the subway literally thousands of times at midnight, 2am, or 4am. Not only was I never a crime victim, but I never saw a crime or a weapon (except those carried by Transit police) during all that time. I'm not saying that NYC subways are crime free; I am suggesting that the fear of crime on the trains trumps reality. It also helps to use common sense. Ride in the car with the conductor, and if your gut tells you to move to another car, do it. Why go looking for trouble?

The only time I was ever mugged was in SF. The guy had a baseball bat; I never saw it coming; and I doubt if carrying a firearm would have helped the situation. Anyway, the perp was caught and convicted. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.

I have friends who hunt. They never poach, always get hunting licenses, eat what they shoot and are very very serious about gun safety. I have no problem with that.

If you're a generally law abiding citizen who's done nothing more serious than carelessly running a stop sign or smoking (but not inhaling) a joint, and you think a gun will help protect you, I support your right to have one. Just be aware of the possibility of very unfortunate consequences. And don't think I'm a wimp just because I choose not to have one.

Like your OP, this post is not meant to be flame bait.

[slackmaster]

24. Anyone who would say they welcome an opportunity to shoot someone legally hasn't thought it through

And certainly has not been properly trained in self-defense.

As with any decent martial arts training, a class in defense using guns, or knives, or anything else spends a good deal of time dealing with legal and moral issues.

Even a perfectly justifiable use of force that results in serious injury or death, even of a very bad person, often results in criminal prosecution, lawsuits, social ostracism, loss of money, jobs, relationships, etc.

Would you really like to be in a situation where you could use your gun to legally shoot someone? It might not be something you’d say out loud, but be honest with yourself about your innermost thoughts on this.

My overt statements and innermost thoughts agree: FUCK NO!

[Tejas]

29. I think the basic idea

that the people the OP spoke were trying to get across was not that they looked forward to some field-day, but rather what they would do if faced with having to make a life-preserving choice.
Granted, people (on both sides of the argument) will talk smack, but when reality rears it's face in the form of someone that possibly intends to punch your ticket, then all bets are off.

And with all due respect, if ever presented with the dilemma of someone trying to do me serious bodily harm, much less kill me, the last thing on my mind at that moment of truth would be "what will the neighbors think".

Fair enough?

[sandnsea]

58. And yet that's always the bluster

Isn't it. That's why I always say the entire 2nd Amendment gun debate is nothing but an NRA mirage, smoke and mirrors bullshit for the gun industry. Nobody is going to fight the government. And if there were less guns and a different attitude, nobody would have any need for guns to cover up their cowardice.

[slackmaster]

62. The bluster gets augmented by the perception of anonymity on forums like this

People say all kinds of things they might not while looking you in the eye.

[Tejas]

28. Not very disturbing to hear

from people that they care if they live or die. At least they're positive about their existence.

It's the negatives that confuse me:
"I no longer own a gun and if lack of one causes my death or injury at some critical moment, so be it."

Keep in mind that the estimated 2,500,000 yearly defensive uses of firearms by law-abiding citizens in this country is a good thing. The alternative of 2,500,000 dead law-abiding citizens is not, the ones you spoke to were simply trying to (albeit rather vocally) convey to you that they don't intend to be one of the latter.

[EstimatedProphet]

30. There may be a bias here

First of all, you are having these conversations at a range. This means that the gun owners are on the active end of the spectrum. Second, are you starting the conversations about criminals, or are they? If they are, then these may be people that dwell on the Big Hero fantasy.

In other words, I don't doubt one bit that these people exist. I'm saying that it isn't necessarily a majority of gun owners. It could be a small minority and still look like a majority, just like Freepers look like a majority of Americans when you look at online polling.

For myself, I know I would never want to be in a position where I had to shoot someone. I also don't think about it a whole lot.

[NickB79]

34. Having to use a gun for self-defense was the most traumatic experience of my life

I didn't like being in that situation, but in retrospect I did the right thing. I know that, if a similar situation arose in the future, I would do the same thing if I had no other option.

[ThomWV]

35. I carry

I have a concealed carry permit and I often carry a pistol. In fact it would be true to say that I am armed most of the time when I am in public. I have no desire to shoot anyone.

I know what you mean by the sort of false bravado you hear around gun shops and ranges. I've heard the same thing many times. Alarming as it may seem that was exactly the same sort of nonsense the instructor was spewing when I was going through the mandatory training to get my permit.

As a guy who buys an occasional lottery ticket I can tell you I have no great expectation of every having a reason to take that pistol I carry out of its holster. But, like buying that ticket that I never expect to win, you never know. In the event it might be the tool to save my life or the life of someone else threatened with death.

This might surprise you too. I had no idea how many people have licenses to carry concealed firearms until a little over a year ago. They are a lot more common than you might imagine and with the reciprocity agreements between the states you can legally carry in more places than you might imagine.

[monktonman]

38. why do you have to hide your gun? n/t

[ThomWV]

39. So as not to alarm people

I do not carry a gun to scare people. In this state you do not need a license to carry a pistol in the open and in fact it is well known that it is legal to do so. Still, you never see it. There is something not only alarming but also threatening about seeing someone armed in public. I personally don't even like seeing police officers weapons. So mine is tucked away in my wasteband most of the time other than that I keep it in the center console or on the passenger seat if I'm driving, but that is just a matter of comfort.

[monktonman]

40. So as not to alarm the criminals?

I live in Vermont. We have no concealed carry law. people openly carry their guns all the time.
While I understand your reason for carrying a gun, it seems to me that openly carrying your side arm is a much more powerful deterant for robbers. Why get shot first?
I'm not trying to get down on you, I just dont understand the gun hiding logic.
Some call it "concealing", I call it hiding.

[ThomWV]

48. Interesting

Actually I was just reading about your state a couple of weeks ago. Our state entered into additional reciprocity agreements with several states but yours was listed in a different category. There was an explanation that because in your state there was no restriction at all on carrying that no agreement could be signed. You see here we have to have our license on us whenever we carry but you don't need a physical license. Small problem.

Actually I do not carry my pistol to deter anyone from doing anything. I carry it for my own protection and possibly the protection of those around me in some rare cases. I guess if open carry was common here then no one here would be very much concerned if I wore my pistol openly. As it turns out it would run counter to the norm here abouts and so I don't do it. Like I said, I'm not here to rock the ship, I'm just trying to pass through.

By the way, and this may surprise you. I did not own a pistol and had no intention of carrying one until just over a year ago. We were at a friends home, four or five couple, a couple of singles, and after dinner we were all sitting around chatting. The subject of carrying a concealed weapon came up and it was I who was the babe in the woods. A couple of the people there had permits and a couple of the others planned on getting one. Everyone but me knew something about it. I was awestruck. My own wife said she planned to get a pistol and carry it, and that was the first I had heard of it. Really, I was the last to know. So I thought, 'well, if she feels she should carry a gun for self protection I should get her one'. So I did, I bought my wife a pistol and paid for her to take the required firearms class. So then she said aren't you going to do it too? So I went out and bought a second pistol for myself and enrolled in the class as well. So we both got permits and we both had pistols.

I didn't carry mine hardly ever. What for? I kept it in the truck most of the time. Then this past year I started riding a motorcycle again. I put a lot of miles on my bike this past year and I ride to places you can not find on most maps and I stop and talk to people. That is when I started to carry the pistol pretty much all the time, when I began riding the bike a lot.

[AZ Criminal JD]

50. It is what the state law requires

Some states require concealed carry and some allow open carry. If you are going to have a gun on you, you have to comply with whatever your state law is, no matter what you think of the law. You have spread of bunch of misinformation in your posts, especially your smear of the NRA. Your are apparently unaware of the civil rights struggles in the South where NRA rifle clubs organized by blacks faced down KKK groups. A famous incident occurred in 1957 in Monroe, North Carolina when a group of NRA members repulsed a group of KKK members who were intent on burning down the house of Robert Williams who was a civil rights activist. Find another group to throw mud on.

[monktonman]

71. Thats why I asked.

Did you see it was a question??
I could give a shit about the NRA

[benEzra]

51. Actually, Vermont law authorizes concealed carry WITHOUT a license.

The only other state like that is Alaska; all other states except two require a license, and two (Illinois and Wisconsin) don't allow carry at all.

[ThomWV]

52. Strangely enough that was why we don't have reciprocity with you all

As I recall having read it on our Attorney General's site a couple of weeks ago it worked like this. Our state requires that if you are carrying a concealed weapon you have to have a permit on your person. Your state doesn't require a permit and doesn't issue one. Our Attorney General is willing to recognize your state's law except he can not give you an exception for our requirement to have on your person a document that your state doesn't issue. At any rate just the recognition of the problem at that level and the spirit in which the information is provided leaves little doubt that discussions between the states has taken place and that persons from West Virginia who are licensed will be accorded the same rights as residents in Vermont and that Vermont residents who carry in West Virginia won't require any special license (but I'd bet they'd want to see a driver's license or some other proof you were from Vermont).

Anyway that's about all I know about it. Like I said, I'm not a gun hound, I just carry one legally and after having completed a training program as well as almost a month of range time, an extensive (2 month) background check, and paying a considerable sum of money for the license(s).

[immoderate]

37. I don't expect to ever use my gun for anything other than plinking.

I wouldn't want to shoot anything that moves besides a skeet.

--IMM

[blues90]

41. So far I've made it 59 years without a gun

I don't have one now , if I happen to get shot dead then so be it but to me having a gun is no insurance I will live another day . I would imagine the attacker would have the gun in hand , what am I going to do pull one out under my shirt or jacket and win the draw , that's insane .

[ThomWV]

49. Well then, between us we have an average of 30 years of gun ownership each.

Just kidding, couldn't help myself. We are about the same age and I've had guns since childhood. To be honest about it I'm not much of a gun hound though. Most of my life I've lived in the country and there simply have always been guns around. It would not surprise me to find a shotgun leaning in any corner of this house or in the any corner of any of my neighbors homes either.

That's really probably the greatest difference between those of us who feel strongly about the right to bear arms and those who think it antiquated; the rural, urban (or suburban) difference. I certainly understand why any city dweller would want total disarmament but at the same time you have to understand how it is to walk out of the house and find wild dogs on a sheep or a groundhog destroying the vegetable garden. Just my guess.

[blues90]

53. Even in the city here

We have raccoons and other creatures driven out of their homes from the building going on and they do their damage but even with that I would not shoot them .

I lived from 1959 to 76 in a farmland turned into a neighborhood and there were plenty of creatures there but I don't recall anyone owning a gun or hearing a gunshot .

I am just not used to the idea and have found no need to own a gun .

I have nothing against people who own guns within reason but automatics and clips in hand guns is a bit out of control .

I feel if one has the practice a revolver with 6 bullets would be enough or a rifle for hunting without the scope .

But then what do i know other than my own perspective .

[catnhatnh]

55. I had them in the service....

but got rid of them pretty quick in civilian life.Grandpa had his until he died and Dad had a few for quite a while....many people should not have them and I decided I was one of them.I would be happier if ownership were tougher...

[Paladin]

59. Your Experience Mirrors Those Of A Lot Of Veterrans.....

...I've encountered over the years, both in my family and otherwise: Once their service was up, they walked away from guns and never had anything to do with them again. Can't say as I blame them....

[krispos42]

57. I'm absolutely terrified that I might be in that situation

I don't want to be looking down a gun barrel at an attacker who I know has a mother and father, grandparents and cousins, aunts and uncles, children and a spouse, brothers and sisters, and know that I might ruin a unique person and their family and friends lives.

I have this fear that the situation will be intimate and lengthy, and that the person will move from "anonymous human predator" to "fellow human being" in my mind, and maybe I won't shoot when it is required of me. "Stockholm Syndrome", I think it's called. That maybe I'll find out I don't have the steel in me to do it.

I hope I never have to. I'd rather not know if I can live with it or not. I don't want to decide that his life is worth less than mine and act in a potentally irreversable way.


But by the same token I don't want to be looking at an attacker without a gun. Because I have a mother and father and grandparents and cousins and aunts and uncles and a brother and a very precious 3-year-old, all of whom love me and need me.

The odds of actually committing a justifiable homicide are very low. There are less than 250 a year in this country, out of well over a million defensive gun uses a year. Nearly all attackers scramble away from an armed victim, so it is highly probably that if you are in a situation where you are confronting an attacker or intruder with your gun, it will not end in gunfire.


I think the macho attitude is a way of trying to prepare ourselves mentally to be able to make the right decision if, God forbid, it ever has to be made.

You mentioned you were in the army, where they naturally trained you to kill people with your rifle. Or, rather, "hit your target". And you trained, and practiced. You kept your M16 nice and clean. You kept your magazines full and free from grit. You practiced at the range regularly, shooting targets at 100, 200, 300, 400, maybe even 500 meters downrange, adjusting your peep sights for windage and range. Elbow up! And squeeze that trigger, private! Don't yank it, squeeze it, dammit!!!

You didn't want to be in combat, to find out if all those screaming drill sergeants and twenty-klick hikes and hours on the rifle range enabled you to actually kill someone, did you? But you trained and hiked and shot anyway.

I think it's a similar mentality. That was one thing I always tried to impress upon my former brother-in-law. He's 13 years younger than I am and we would talk about it a lot. Guns, I mean. Mostly hunting, but in terms of self-defense as well. Discussing the various merits of the 9mm vs. .45, for example. But I always make sure to say something like "I hope I never have to do it, but if I have to, I hope it is really a clear-cut case of me having to do it."



For what it's worth, I posted this before reading any of the replies to your OP.

[blonndee]

60. I'm a single woman who lives alone and who has a fairly public profile.

Although I have not yet done so, I plan to purchase a firearm (shotgun) soon and yes, I will use it if necessary. I certainly do not welcome the opportunity to do so and I would imagine it would be awful and difficult to have to use it, but I absolutely would use it to defend myself. I've been threatened before and terrified in my own home, because I was defenseless. I do not ever want to be in that position again.

[Flatulo]

63. Please make sure you understand the laws in your state

regarding lawful use of deadly force. As someone posted upthread, shooting someone is a huge deal almost always resulting in charges and an expensive legal defense.

I would reccomend Massad Ayoub's book series 'In the Gravest Extreme'

[Cyrano]

64. Thanks for jump-starting my memory, Flatulo.

Ayoub was (still is?) one of the foremost authorities on guns and gun ownership.

I believe that the opinions I stated in the OP may have been due to having read much of his writings many moons ago. And it's possible that, because of his insights and knowledge, I started to recognize the difference between responsible, rational people who own guns, and whack jobs who shouldn't allowed near a water pistol.

Ayoub should be required reading for everyone who owns, or is even thinking about owning a gun.

[Flatulo]

68. I've read most of Ayoub's books. It really should be required

reading before being issued a handgun permit.

[Vincardog]

66. shooting someone is a huge deal almost always resulting in charges and an expensive legal defense?

Not in TEXAS. If someone is on your property and you feel threatened, you can shoot them.
If you kill them their is only one story as to what happened.

[Flatulo]

67. Obviously, your mileage may vary... in Mass some years

ago, a pharmacy druggist was accosted by four gun-wielding thieves. He was fired upon and hit four times before returning fire and killing one of the attackers.

He was charged by the local district attourney, who was notoriously anti-self defense. He was acquitted of all charges.

[Vincardog]

69. This week end outside Huston a guy saw two people robbing his neighbor. HE called the

police and then went outside and said to the two men "You are dead" then shot and killed them both.
No charges have been filed. He claimed they charged him.