It Was NOT The Fact That He Was Tortured That Needed Covering Up-IT WAS WHAT HE SAID!

[kpete]

It's Not Torture They're Covering Up, It's the Results
by The Baculum King
Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 03:41:17 PM PST

The automatic assumption about the CIA's destruction of the interrogation tapes of Abu Zubaydah is that the tapes exposed methods everyone would agree amounted to torture, and they were destroyed to prevent that proof being exposed. It's quite likely that what was being covered up was the results of that torture.

Gerald Posner has a piece at HuffPo drawing from his 2003 book that is worth a read:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerald-posner/the-cias-destroyed-inter_b_75850.html

Instead, when confronted by his "Saudi" interrogators, Zubaydah showed no fear. Instead, according to the two U.S. intelligence sources that provided me the details, he seemed relieved. The man who had been reluctant to even confirm his identity to his U.S. captors, suddenly talked animatedly. He was happy to see them, he said, because he feared the Americans would kill him. He then asked his interrogators to call a senior member of the Saudi royal family. And Zubaydah provided a private home number and a cell phone number from memory. "He will tell you what to do," Zubaydah assured them

He named two other Saudi princes, and also the chief of Pakistan's air force, as his major contacts. Moreover, he stunned his interrogators, by charging that two of the men, the King's nephew, and the Pakistani Air Force chief, knew a major terror operation was planned for America on 9/11.

It would be nice to further investigate the men named by Zubaydah, but that is not possible. All four identified by Zubaydah are now dead. As for the three Saudi princes, the King's 43-year-old nephew, Prince Ahmed, died of either a heart attack or blood clot, depending on which report you believe, after having liposuction in Riyadh's top hospital; the second, 41-year-old Prince Sultan bin Faisal bin Turki al-Saud, died the following day in a one car accident, on his way to the funeral of Prince Ahmed; and one week later, the third Saudi prince named by Zubaydah, 25-year-old Prince Fahd bin Turki bin Saud al-Kabir, died, according to the Saudi Royal Court, "of thirst." The head of Pakistan's Air Force, Mushaf Ali Mir, was the last to go. He died, together with his wife and fifteen of his top aides, when his plane blew up -- suspected as sabotage -- in February 2003. Pakistan's investigation of the explosion -- if one was even done -- has never been made public.

It wasn't the fact that he was tortured that needed covering up, it was what he said.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/12/7/183319/766/707/419308

[lovuian]

1. there is such rot in the Saudi kingdom

and they rule here in the US

[Richard Steele]

2. K&R

[madokie]

3. this river runs deep

[DeanDem10]

144. Good reminder

Thanks for the reminder from history.

[ConsAreLiars]

4. Apart from the evidence of torture, the PNAC-Saudi alliance is another reason to burn

the evidence. There are some real vicious monsters in charge of this murderous system, and they don't want their cover blown.

[jwirr]

51. Yes, Bandar & *ss sat together in the WH while 911 happened.

Coincidence?

[Sugar Smack]

54. I said about that in another thread-

I remember hearing about the nice little dinner between Bush & Bandar September 12th. Bush & Bandar having a cigar on the balcony & watching smoke from the Pentagon.

Charming tableau, eh?

[BelgianMadCow]

115. and don't forget the Carlyle sit-in

poppy Bush and chums.

[zabet]

118. No...

...no coincidence.

[libnnc]

5. !!!

:kick:

[hootinholler]

6. When did Bandar pack up and go home?

:shrug:

I like the fresh angle. I bet the CIA has a multitudinous collection of interrorgation, so why these tapes in particular?

-Hoot

[piedmont]

7. So, assuming he did name them, and they died of foul play...

were they killed in revenge or in a cover-up? Both?

[dysfunctional press]

11. and assuming they really died.

:shrug:

fake deaths don't just happen in the movies...(cough, cough, ken lay, cough, cough)

[SpiralHawk]

28. "Smirk, Smirk, Smirk." - Kenny Boy

"Smirk, snark, smirk."

- Senor K. Lay,
Bush Family Intimate, now resting luxuriously in a deep Carribean hidey hole

[Octafish]

38. Tha's bee-yoo-tee-full.

Kenny Boy stole billions and got away with it.

The casket was closed at the funeral.

The "remains" then were cremated.

Not many people in Paraguay knows what he looks like.

Hope they find him, like the missing canoe man.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

89. My sources at the Aspen hospital, and in the Pitkin County Sheriff's Office...

...tell me it was Kenny boy who died that night.

My wife took report that morning from the nurses who worked on him...My friend, who hates Bu*h as much as we do, is the Sheriff of the county. I find this thread Very interesting and credible, but this Ken Lay still alive tangent...not so much.

[SpiralHawk]

106. Ken Lay still lives

I'd bet a sack of doughnuts on it,

[Leopolds Ghost]

111. Regular or creme-filled?

[yardwork]

127. Ken Lay is probably dead - the circumstances of his death are interesting, imo.

It might be coincidence that he died before his sentencing hearing, a hearing at which he would have been expected to submit evidence in hopes of lightening his sentence. Maybe some folks didn't want Lay to have that opportunity.

Or maybe he died of natural causes exactly the way it was reported. It doesn't make him any less of a crook, or the Bush White House any less involved in the Enron swindle.

[Gonnuts]

59. Cover-up

After Pres. Kennedy's killing some 40-odd witnesses died of other than natural causes within 2 years of the murder. The mathematical probabilities of this are staggering, in the trillions to one factor. The powers that be will never allow the truth of 9/11 to get out. They'd kill their own to keep that secret.

[HCE SuiGeneris]

8. Ding ding.

Yes, exactly. If the truth of the conspiracy of 9/11 were to get out, there WOULD be a revolution in the streets.

[Gonnuts]

57. I concur

Indeed, this is one more brick in the wall. 9/11 without any doubt was a "false flag" operation. If we ever find out those that are really behind the attacks we'd go a long way to eliminating much of the evil in this world.

[L. Coyote]

134. Ridiculous, of course, and totally illogical too.

Where would they find the brains?

It is very easy to explain 9/11 w/o ridiculous conspiracy ideation and paranoid rantings. The actions of the USA has created enemies. D'oh!!

[CANDO]

80. Doubtful, they'd be too busy shopping.

eom

[OnyxCollie]

101. They've got that covered.

No more habeas corpus.

No more posse comitatus.

H.R. 1955, The Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act.

Private, mercenary army.

Halliburton prisons.

See a pattern?

[whoneedstickets]

9. Outstanding find. This is gold..

..lets hope olberman picks up on it or something.

[dysfunctional press]

10. the american people NEED to know that saudi arabia is the #1 reason for an alternative to oil.

global warming being #2 in this case.

[alfredo]

12. Kick

[Truth2Tell]

13. This is starting to make more sense now...

Sen. Graham: Bush covered up Saudi involvement in 9/11

http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/09/08/graham/

The pieces are falling into place. History is unfolding before our eyes.

[The Backlash Cometh]

30. Loyalty to business partners is more important than loyalty to country.

[jwirr]

52. The basis for Poppy's new world order - globalization - was the

weakening of national boarders.

[FogerRox]

120. Correct, the trans mational corporation is more powerfull than the Nation State

It used to be the other way around....

[HowHasItComeToThis]

49. NEED TO SEE THE 27 PAGES

DO YOU FOLKS REMEMBER

[jwirr]

53. What?

[CJCRANE]

78. The "redacted" pages

of the 9/11 Commission Report.

[jwirr]

129. Thank you.

[FogerRox]

121. Connect the dots, YEAH BABY ///^\\\

[scarletwoman]

14. Oh, HELL yes! That's EXACTLY it!

The whole "we can't risk our agents being identified" excuse is SO fucking bogus -- like the CIA doesn't know how to blot out faces on a videotape? How stupid do they think we are? (rhetorical question)

Thanks, kpete -- this is an excellent point and it goes to the heart of the incredible corruption and mendactiy that underlies the entire "war on terror" enterprise.

Recommended, of course!
sw

[ClayZ]

15. KICK and R

[Mojorabbit]

16. This is amazing.

I don't know what to say...

[Occulus]

18. I'll ask one question:

Why am I unsurprised by this? Oh, yeah, I know already: it's because FIFTEEN OF THE NINETEEN HIJACKERS came from Saudi Arabia. Why more is not made of that one simple fact constantly mystifies me. I'm flummoxed even more that most people just. Don't. Care. At all. The ones that think Iraq "did it"... they're all headcases, every last one of them.

:wtf:

WHY wasn't this headline news then, and why isn't it headline news now? This is a seriously corrupt regime, which actually attacked us in an act of war. Is their oil more important that 3000+ lives? Oh, wait, I know the answer to that question, too. :grr:

[Sugar Smack]

42. DITTO

IT'S SICKENING.

[StrictlyRockers]

17. So kicked. And so recommended!

:kick:

Study this shit. I do.

[Disturbed]

20. The Busholini Regime is more corrupt than can be imagined.

I believe that is why the Dems have refused to Impeach any of the War Criminals. They realize that the American people would figure out that they have been complicit with the Regime.

[Kaleko]

21. Yes, that's my take too

[jwirr]

55. Or that they could die one right after the other?

[gateley]

19. K&R - Interesting!

[sss1977]

22. Excellent.

[orleans]

23. i totally remember hearing this story/reading it. i didn't realize this was

the guy that we had a video on, and one that was errased.


hummmm.....very interesting.

[Jeroen]

24. The Pakistan connection (The Guardian, 2004)

There is evidence of foreign intelligence backing for the 9/11 hijackers.
Why is the US government so keen to cover it up?

Michael Meacher
Thursday July 22, 2004
The Guardian

Omar Sheikh, a British-born Islamist militant, is waiting to be hanged in Pakistan for a murder he almost certainly didn't commit - of the Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002. Both the US government and Pearl's wife have since acknowledged that Sheikh was not responsible. Yet the Pakistani government is refusing to try other suspects newly implicated in Pearl's kidnap and murder for fear the evidence they produce in court might acquit Sheikh and reveal too much.

More:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1266317,00.html

[Disturbed]

25. CIA &/or Delta Force Assasinations?

It sure seems like it.

[AzDar]

26. K & R....

:wow:

[SpiralHawk]

27. "Don't blame me. I was on vacation. As usual." - Commander AWOL

"Makin sweet with ma' buds. Smirk." - Commander AWOL

[annabanana]

29. Remarkable... for what it's worth

(I fear the Congress itself is too compromised to get to the real bottom of this. . . . the best they will be able to do is discipline a few "enhanced" interrogators)

[flyarm]

34. absolutely..that is why they won't call Sibel Edmonds in for a hearing..they could you know

they just won't..too many even on our side of the isle are compromised.

fly

[davsand]

60. Does Sibel Edmonds' stuff support this?

I was wondering about that as I was reading the thread. I'm not familiar enough with her statements to know much more than just the broad strokes.

I remember she had stuff on Hastert (who has since resigned) and I remember she had some stuff about Bin Laden and his ties to the current administration. Did she aver say anything about the Saudi royals and the "mystery" deaths that were going on?

I remember saying when all these guys were dying off that I thought they probably knew too much and were paying a price for that. At the time, I even wondered if maybe the Saudis themselves were killing them off because they (the dead ones) had been involved in the 9/11 thing. (Imagine how "embarrassing" THAT would have been for the Saudi Royals, not to mention inconvenient.)

Now, I'm wondering if maybe the killers were in the employ of folks here in the US who didn't want anything leaking out about their involvement in the entire mess...

Isn't it a horrible sad commentary on the state of our nation that this kind of shit even sounds plausible?



Laura

[Junkdrawer]

31. "Creating Terror": The History of al Qaeda....

One of the most important aspects of the War on Terror(tm) is often missed by our (ahem) impartial corporate media. DU's very own Reprehensor has done a great job gathering together a good deal of the work of Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed.

Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed was born in London, England in November 1978. He is of Bangladeshi origin. He is a political analyst and human rights activist, specialising in Western foreign policy and its impact on human rights. He is Executive Director of the Institute for Policy Research & Development (IPRD), an independent, interdisciplinary, non-profit think tank based in Brighton, UK. The IPRD conducts research and analysis of local and global society for the promotion of human rights, justice and peace. IPRD briefings and reports are distributed to political representatives, NGOs, various media, research libraries and members of the general public in the United Kingdom, the United States, Europe and Canada.
http://nafeez.mediamonitors.net/background.html

Nafeez recently did an hour long presentation titled "Creating Terror" where he examined the history of 'al Qaeda'. Here's a link to the MP3 of that speech:

ftp://www.radio4all.net/pub/files/[e-mail]/2704-1-20070720-creating_terror_part1edited.mp3

I also recommend Reprehensor's great thread “Deconstructing ‘al Qaeda’":
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1415451

[freefall]

125. Junkdrawer, thank you! I listened and read and I am informed.

I thought I knew a lot before but was amazed at the depth of official depravity revealed in these links. Again, my great thanks. The knowledge is difficult to deal with but it is so much better to be informed.

Peace,
freefall

[Junkdrawer]

142. Your welcome. Another good read for those who want to understand Oil politics:

It's a lecture(circa 1999) on the History of OPEC and oil politics from a professor at UC Davis:


http://www-geology.ucdavis.edu/~cowen/~GEL115/115CH13oil.html

Very informative.

[Xipe Totec]

32. From George's own mouth:

"To date, we've arrested or otherwise dealt with many key commanders of al Qaeda. They include a man who directed logistics and funding for the September the 11th attacks; the chief of al Qaeda operations in the Persian Gulf, who planned the bombings of our embassies in East Africa and the USS Cole; an al Qaeda operations chief from Southeast Asia; a former director of al Qaeda's training camps in Afghanistan; a key al Qaeda operative in Europe; a major al Qaeda leader in Yemen. All told, more than 3,000 suspected terrorists have been arrested in many countries. Many others have met a different fate. Let's put it this way -- they are no longer a problem to the United States and our friends and allies. (Applause.)

- G.W. Bush State of the Union Address, January 28, 2003

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/01/20030128-19.html


Now we know what different fate George was alluding to when he said they were no longer a problem.

[flyarm]

33. Realize this,.much of this info the families of 9/11 have known or had a good info on..

there were many families that were directly suing Saudi Arabia..

and our media either ignored them..or vilified them..especially Faux

fly

[EFerrari]

41. That's right. They were smeared. Make to look nutty

or, of all things, ungrateful or "angry". They "wouldn't let go".

[AntiFascist]

92. The Truth Movement is particularly dangerous to the Administration...

they are painted to look like a collection of whacko conspiracy theorists, but in fact huge numbers were directly involved in 9-11 as either victims, family members, or eye witnesses.

[EFerrari]

119. Truth about anything is dangerous to these criminals. n/t

[L. Coyote]

135. Not really. They are a bunch of conspiracy theorists! More like mis-truth and

irrational. They act to obfuscate the truth. Take a closer look at who pays their bills, I'd say!!

[AntiFascist]

145. Who exactly is this "They" you refer to?

The Truth Movement I know of are simply people who want questions answered, and there are plenty of questions that need answering. Without questions being answered, all we are left with are theories. There are certainly those who try to take advantage of the movement, but I wouldn't say that they characterize the movement as a whole.

[kpete]

35. more info - for those who crave it

http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2007/12/6/192315/477
and some interesting comments at:
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2007/12/07/torture-tapes/#more-1138

[flyarm]

37. thanks Kpete..and a belated Happy Birthday..i was traveling and only saw it

after it was too late..

so Happy Birthday!!:party: :party: :toast:

fly

[Sugar Smack]

39. "You're not going to let me lose face on this, are you?"

"No sir, Mr. President."

because, after all, this is what it's all about.

Thank you for this, kpete.

[ShaneGR]

36. The head of the Pakistani Air Force plane blew up

If this is true, and Mushaf Ali Mir, the former head of the Pakistani air force, was a planner of 9/11, I find it to be rather poetic that he ended up dying/killed in a plane explosion, not unlike the people who died in those planes on 9/11.

[flyarm]

50. there are people in our congress that know..and they are complicit in hiding the truth

they know..but you will never know for sure..they have made sure of that..

we may get close to truth..but we will never get the full truth now..too much time has passed for the greatest coverup ever to have taken place..evidence has been destroyed..

the only real chance we had ..in my estimation was in 2004 with Kerry as pres..they made sure that didn't happen..they needed more time..now that have had that time.

my 2 cents..

and if you think there will be any further investigation under Hillary..i have a bridge in NY for you.

Edwards was privy to what Kerry knew and Knows..the Kerry camp was very close with the 9/11 families and many of us crew for the airlines involved.

Edwards to me is our only choice to get some..and i mean some ..truth..we will never get it all now..

fly

[go west young man]

69. Link to 911 Press For Truth video and Pakistani ISI involvement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqkRCpOMUvI&feature=related

Why the General was in D.C. has never been fully explained.

[tanyev]

40. Click.

Everything just fell into place. I had read that account before, but I had no idea those were the tapes that got destroyed.

[K Gardner]

43. Good lord... K&R n/t

[babylonsister]

44. Cripes. This rot is infecting us, too. Why doesn't anyone care? nt

[farmbo]

61. Look over there!! Brittany's driving her daughter without a seatbelt!!!!

Bread and circuses.

[bluesmail]

45. hearty K&R

for the truth

[AwakeAtLast]

46. And further down the rabbit hole we go...K & R

Where the bottom is? Oh, somebody knows, they just aren't telling.

[Snotcicles]

47. OMG. What is this administration involved in? nt

[flyarm]

48. 9/11...........eom

[helderheid]

56. !!!

:wow:

[Ezlivin]

58. What happened to that building with the CIA, DOD and US Secret Service offices?

Luckily it totally collapsed after suffering a bit of damage. Disregard the rapidity and symmetry of the collapse.

Tenants in the building:

Floor            Tenant
46-47            Mechanical floors
28-45            Salomon Smith Barney (SSB)
26-27            Standard Chartered Bank
25               Inland Revenue Service (IRS)
25               Department of Defense (DOD)
25               Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)
24               Inland Revenue Service (IRS)
23               Office of Emergency Management (OEM)
22               Federal Home Loan Bank of New York
21               First State Management Group
19-21            ITT Hartford Insurance Group
19               National Association of Insurance Commissioners (NAIC)
18               Equal Opportunity Commission (EEOC)
14-17            Vacant
13               Provident Financial Management
11-13            Securities and Exchange Commission
9-10             US Secret Service
7-8              American Express Bank International
7                OEM generators and day tank
6                Switchgear, storage
5                Switchgear, generators, transformers
4                Upper level of 3rd floor, switchgear
3                Lobby, SSB Conference Center, rentable space, manage
2                Open to first floor lobby, transformer vault upper level, upper level switchgear
1                Lobby, loading docks, existing Con Ed transformer vaults, fuel storage, lower level switchgear

[Venus Dog]

62. Convenient that offices 14-17 were all VACANT!

Right above stuff like "switchgears", "transformer vaults", "fuel storage".

Also check out offices 24 & 25. What the hell is "Inland Revenue Service (IRS)", not INTERNAL Revenue Service and there are two listed, one of was in the same office as DOD & CIA :wtf:

:tinfoilhat: :hide:

[eggplant]

71. In the UK, the equivalent organization is called "Inland"

It just means that whoever wrote the list was from across the pond and made a transcription error. They probably had a source list that only included the acronyms.

[AntiFascist]

93. Interesting, but PLEASE...don't get this thread moved you know where! n/t

[Leopolds Ghost]

113. Salomon Smith Barney is now owned by Citigroup -- possibly the world's most powerful bank

They arranged a deal to buy it out after 9-11 which crippled SSB's infrastructure.

Citibank (or, as it was called for the ONE YEAR before Clinton signed the Banking Deregulation Act allowing businesses advertised as "banks" to purchase investment agencies, "Citibanc", during which they engaged in illegal portfolio building in anticipation of the law's passage) has many ties to the BFEE... hmm...

[MasonJar]

63. This could be Bushista as well as Saudi. After all, didn't the two or three

airmen who witnessed to nuclear armed airplane which illegally flew with weapons over the US die suddenly? Very phony!!!!!! And then of course we had two dems running for the Senate, who were probable shoe-ins, dying in plane crashes.

[warren pease]

64. More on the Pakistani-9/11-Atta-funding connections...

From the Guardian, which of course isn't published in the US. If it were, we'd be reading about OJ, football and how well that "surge" is going.

Significantly, Sheikh is also the man who, on the instructions of General Mahmoud Ahmed, the then head of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), wired $100,000 before the 9/11 attacks to Mohammed Atta, the lead hijacker. It is extraordinary that neither Ahmed nor Sheikh have been charged and brought to trial on this count.

Ahmed, the paymaster for the hijackers, was actually in Washington on 9/11, and had a series of pre-9/11 top-level meetings in the White House, the Pentagon, the national security council, and with George Tenet, then head of the CIA, and Marc Grossman, the under-secretary of state for political affairs. When Ahmed was exposed by the Wall Street Journal as having sent the money to the hijackers, he was forced to "retire" by President Pervez Musharraf. Why hasn't the US demanded that he be questioned and tried in court?

Another person who must know a great deal about what led up to 9/11 is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, allegedly arrested in Rawalpindi on March 1 2003. A joint Senate-House intelligence select committee inquiry in July 2003 stated: "KSM appears to be one of Bin Laden's most trusted lieutenants and was active in recruiting people to travel outside Afghanistan, including to the US, on behalf of Bin Laden."

And then this dandy:

A fourth witness is Sibel Edmonds. She is a 33-year-old Turkish-American former FBI translator of intelligence, fluent in Farsi, the language spoken mainly in Iran and Afghanistan, who had top-secret security clearance. She tried to blow the whistle on the cover-up of intelligence that names some of the culprits who orchestrated the 9/11 attacks, but is now under two gagging orders that forbid her from testifying in court or mentioning the names of the people or the countries involved. She has been quoted as saying: "My translations of the 9/11 intercepts included money laundering, detailed and date-specific information ... if they were to do real investigations, we would see several significant high-level criminal prosecutions in this country ... and believe me, they will do everything to cover this up".

Much more in the Guardian article.


And from the 9/11 Commission report itself regarding funding for the alleged attacks comes this amazing bit of avoidance:

To date, the U.S. government has not been able to determine the origin of the money used for the 9/11 attacks. Ultimately the question is of little practical significance.

Seems to me it would be of huge significance if Atta's paymaster was a member of the Pakistani military or civilian authority. But, faced with a reasonable amount of evidence indicating that US pals in Pakistan actually funded the operation, the commission -- run by executive director Philip Zelikow, administration insider and Condi crony -- chose to simply blow it off.

So one more nail in the coffin of the BushCo-created, mass media-approved 9/11 myth. Where's boloboffin when you need somebody to defend the official conspiracy theory?


wp

[Richard D]

65. Isn't it time . . .

. . . to stop relegating "9/11 conspiracy theories" to the dungeon?

[stubtoe]

68. Hear, hear!

If anyone can sort this mess out it's the talent here at DU.

[BelgianMadCow]

117. Third that

it is mainstream now.

[FogerRox]

124. Interesting point, although there is a good story here

a lot of perfectly good facts, previously disparate points sometimes come together, dots are connected.

[L. Coyote]

136. NO.

[loudsue]

66. Good Gawd Almighty.

Makes me thankful we have the internet. But it still boggles the mind that NOBODY in the msm in the USA has bothered to go after this. The heads of our media are traitors to this country...even though Murdock is Australian, he has contributed to the downfall of our media.

Assholes.

K & R

[DirtyDawg]

67. It the truth(s) about bushco...

...were known to the American people, they would never again vote for a Republican candidate for anything...unless, of course the Democrats bungle the job. Now understand, that doesn't mean - the no-Repug thing - that the state of Georgia would go along. They'd just say, well if George and Dick thinks it's a good 'idy', then it damn-sure must be...yeeehaw!

[Gregorian]

70. Absolutely. That was the very first thing that came to my mind.

We already know they don't care about human life. So that couldn't have been it. It was their hides that they're covering. They're more than naked now.

And I"m looking forward to either testimony, or a duplicate of these tapes. It will happen.

[noise]

72. Why is Posner trustworthy?

Is Posner suggesting Saudi Arabia attacked the US on 9/11 and that US intelligence had no idea? Too many systemic problems? Too many turf battles? Too much red tape? Incompetence?

What did Tenet know? IMO, that is one of the key questions about 9/11. To date, he hasn't come close to being honest about al Qaeda, Bin Laden or 9/11.

[eridani]

75. Posner made his bones as a writer debunking Kennedy assassination theories

He wrote a really big book defending the Warren Report, so he isn't into non-standard "conspiracy" theories on principle or anything.

[drm604]

73. Very important information if true.

Who are his sources and how do we know that they're reliable?

[noise]

74. That is the problem

The redacted 28 pages and accounts like Posner's suggest that 9/11 was a Saudi operation and is being covered up to preserve the US/Saudi relationship...ie...oil and lobbying money being more important than accountability. Posner can imply such theories in large part because of the secrecy.

[CJCRANE]

79. My take

(and this is just my hunch) is that allies such as Saudi Arabia had nothing to gain from attacking America unless they were tricked into it or it was a favor to Bushco and they were assured that they were immune from any repercussions.

On edit: and bear in mind that only one or two individuals would have known the over-arching plot. It would be quite easy for Cheneyco to say "it's just an exercise" or "we're giving these al-Qaeda guys a free pass because we want to keep on tracking them".

[Leopolds Ghost]

122. Exactly. I saw this coming BEFORE 9-11, when I read the following:

1. A major magazine article focused on the question of why box-cutters were allowed on flights, and speculating on how terrorists could take advantage of these loopholes.

2. A newspaper article in which the results of Fitzgerald's investigation of the 1993 WTC Bombing was made public, and it was revealed that the Blind Sheik (then in jail) had declared that Al Qaeda was not only behind the attacks, but was planning an even bolder attack, targeting "the George Washington Bridge" and Lower Manhattan "using the enemy's planes as weapons". The article speculated that he meant small planes, but this was nowhere made clear.

3. Numerous articles about Lower Manhattan's climb to health in the wake of the WTC 1993 basement bombing, which came close to destroying the structure.

In these articles, it was INVARIABLY declared by Mayor Giuliani, the owner of the building, and security experts that there WOULD be another attack on the WTC -- they were sure of it, and sure of Al Qaeda's capabilities in that regard -- and best start making plans to build a new building on the site that would better able to withstand terrorism, not to mention fix the building's systemic vacancy and fire code problems (such as unrented floors, depressed rents in the surrounding area, and asbestos-filled drywall in the fire stairwells in place of concrete or block). Furthermore, these plans actually went on the drawing board in the late 90s, with no objection from urban planners (who regarded the WTC as an eyesore despite public fondness for the two icons of Manhattan.) These articles, and the yawning acceptance of reporters, chilled me.

4. A US News and World Report "news in brief" article, led off by the headline "Garrison Kiellor's New Book and other stories" in which Bin Laden claimed to posess nuclear weapons, followed by a security agencies
rebuttal.

5. The security agencies rebuttal in this and related articles declared that they were unconcerned about another attack on the WTC because the terrorists would be dumb to strike the same target twice. Moreover, the CIA claimed to have sources confirming that Al Qaeda was using the threat of another attack on US soil as cover for more embassy bombings. On this, I decided to write a letter to the editor reminding US News of Point #2, but then I remembered Point #3 and realized the CIA didn't care -- if they hadn't responded to the threat of planes used as bombs already, in secret, then they weren't going to do so in response to my letter. So I didn't send it.

[eridani]

76. Ahmad bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz was whisked out of the US by Bush on 9/15/01

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/sau.html

Right after 9/11, four private Saudi jets were given special dispensation to fly out of the US, beginning on September 15, 2001. The flight manifests showing passenger lists are now viewable on line at <a href=”http://www.houseofbush.com/files.php”> the website of Craig Unger, the author of House of Bush/ House of Saud</a>. As noted by <a href=”http://tomflocco.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=53! ”> Tom Flocco</a>, the first flight corroborates earlier stories of a fifth “phantom” flight from Tampa to Lexington on September 13, when all regular flights were still grounded.


All four flights carried members of the Saudi royal family. The first, from Lexington, Kentucky to London, 9/15/01, also carried a young man, Ahmad A.M. Alhazmi, with the same family name as Nawaf Alhazmi, one of the hijackers.


There is nothing to connect the two Alhazmis directly. But the hijacker Nawaf had already been connected in press stories to the Saudi royal family, as the recipient of funds coming indirectly from the wife of Prince Bandar, the Saudi Ambassador to the United States.


Scandal struck again in November 2002 and touched Princess Haifa al-Faisal,

wife of Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the longtime Saudi ambassador to

Washington (and nephew of Prince Nayef). It was learned that money had gone

from her purse to the pockets of two 9/11 hijackers, Khalid al-Midhar and

Nawaf Alhazmi, by way of two Saudi intermediaries, Omar al-Bayoumi and Osama Bassnan (Stephen Schwartz, Weekly Standard, 8/12/03)


On the flight was the noted horse breeder Prince Ahmad bin Salman bin Abdul Aziz, the owner of the Kentucky Derby winner War Emblem. After returning to Saudi Arabia, he died suddenly of a heart attack at the age of 43, His cousin, Prince Sultan bin Faisal bin Turki bin Abdullah, aged 41, was killed in a car accident the next day, on his way to Prince Ahmad’s funeral.<1>

[noise]

77. It sounds over the top

Too sloppy. Same with the alleged account of ISI Chief Mahmoud wiring money to Atta by way of an intermediary. The ISI Chief is truly this sloppy?

IMO, these accounts come across as intentionally incriminating. The kicker is that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are considered allies in the War on Terror.

[CJCRANE]

81. Maybe it indicates

that only a very few at the top were involved in the MIHOP and they knew they were immune (remember that Bushco shut down any investigations into terror funding that lead to their buddies).

[noise]

83. One problem

is that suspicious aspects of al Qaeda terrorism go back years. For example, Ali Mohamed (so called al Qaeda mole) was involved in training the '93 WTC bombing cell (add to that the bizarre account of Emad Salem's involvement in the '93 plot) and was involved in the '98 Afican embassy bombings.

Peter Dale Scott's take is chilling:

But I consider the scandal of Ali Mohamed’s tolerated terrorism to be a still more fundamental problem, an on-going problem for which we need a more serious remedy than just putting a Democrat in the White House. As has happened after past intelligence fiascoes, our intelligence agencies were strengthened as a result of the 9/11 Commission, and their budgets increased.

It’s time to confront the reality that these agencies themselves, and their own sponsorship and protection of terrorist activities, have aggravated the greatest threats to our national security.

LINK

[CJCRANE]

84. IMO there are three levels to al-Qaeda.

There are the goons/grunts/foot-soldiers (whatever you want to call them).

These are young impressionable men who are fundamentalist muslims (or just out for adventure) who are recruited for missions. Obviously they came in very useful in the campaign against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Some of them went to Kosovo, they also go to Chechnya, Kashmir (although at the moment it seems that most are attracted to Iraq).

Then there are the leaders. Some of these are genuine fundamentalists too, others might be double-agents who have infiltrated and manipulate the organisation from within (that maybe why OBL's videotapes are simply Bush-Cheney talking points in reverse).

Then there are the financiers. Many of these are BFEE allies who hire the goons to go on missions that are politically useful for the BFEE. The goons don't know who they're really working for, as far as they know they are fighting the Great Satan or whatever.

[AntiFascist]

97. Few have reported this...

but there is also a large number of disaffected Soviet military who became involved in the Afghan drug trade, and made it onto Osama's database. Notice that immediately prior to the bombing of Afghanistan that the Taliban had banned poppy cultivation, but since the American takeover heroin production has increased 1000s of percent by American backed drug lords. (CNN deserves the POS award for their reporting of this). Sibel Edmonds' testimony could provide key insight into what is going on here.

[leveymg]

131. Link? I agree. No one has more motive to use the intra-Saudi split against the US than the FSU.

[AntiFascist]

139. I don't know if I should post a link...

Look up Michel CHOSSUDOVSKY

WASHINGTON'S HIDDEN AGENDA : RESTORE THE DRUG TRADE THE SPOILS OF WAR: AFGHANISTAN'S MULTIBILLION DOLLAR HEROIN TRADE

from Global Research in Canada, copyright permission given to cross-post:

...

"Because the US wanted to supply the Mujahideen rebels in Afghanistan with stinger missiles and other military hardware it needed the full cooperation of Pakistan. By the mid-1980s, the CIA operation in Islamabad was one of the largest US intelligence stations in the World. `If BCCI is such an embarrassment to the US that forthright investigations are not being pursued it has a lot to do with the blind eye the US turned to the heroin trafficking in Pakistan', said a US intelligence officer. ("The Dirtiest Bank of All," Time, July 29, 1991, p. 22.)

Researcher Alfred McCoy's study confirms that within two years of the onslaught of the CIA's covert operation in Afghanistan in 1979,

"the Pakistan-Afghanistan borderlands became the world's top heroin producer, supplying 60 per cent of U.S. demand. In Pakistan, the heroin-addict population went from near zero in 1979 to 1.2 million by 1985, a much steeper rise than in any other nation."

"CIA assets again controlled this heroin trade. As the Mujahideen guerrillas seized territory inside Afghanistan, they ordered peasants to plant opium as a revolutionary tax. Across the border in Pakistan, Afghan leaders and local syndicates under the protection of Pakistan Intelligence operated hundreds of heroin laboratories. During this decade of wide-open drug-dealing, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency in Islamabad failed to instigate major seizures or arrests.

...

According to the UNODC, Afghanistan’s opium production has increased, more than 15-fold since 1979. In the wake of the Soviet-Afghan war, the growth of narcotics economy has continued unabated. The Taliban, which were supported by the US, were initially instrumental in the further growth of opiate production until the 2000 opium ban.

(See UNODC http://www.unodc.org/pdf/publications/afg_opium_economy_www.pdf

This recycling of drug money was used to finance the post-Cold War insurgencies in Central Asia and the Balkans including Al Qaeda. (For details, see Michel Chossudovsky, War and Globalization, The Truth behind September 11, Global Outlook, 2002, http://globalresearch.ca ... truth911.html)

...

The revenues generated from the CIA sponsored Afghan drug trade are sizeable. The Afghan trade in opiates constitutes a large share of the worldwide annual turnover of narcotics, which was estimated by the United Nations to be of the order of $400-500 billion. (Douglas Keh, Drug Money in a Changing World, Technical document No. 4, 1998, Vienna UNDCP, p. 4. See also United Nations Drug Control Program, Report of the International Narcotics Control Board for 1999, E/INCB/1999/1 United Nations, Vienna 1999, p. 49-51, and Richard Lapper, UN Fears Growth of Heroin Trade, Financial Times, 24 February 2000). At the time (1994), the global trade in drugs was of the same order of magnitude as the global trade in oil.

...

The heroin business is not "filling the coffers of the Taliban" as claimed by US government and the international community: quite the opposite! The proceeds of this illegal trade are the source of wealth formation, largely reaped by powerful business/criminal interests within the Western countries. These interests are sustained by US foreign policy.

Decision-making in the US State Department, the CIA and the Pentagon is instrumental in supporting this highly profitable multibillion dollar trade, third in commodity value after oil and the arms trade.

...

and there's also this from a British ambassador in Uzbekistan:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1992516&mesg_id=1999342

[Cleita]

82. More and more of this type of information leaks are pointing

to the Saudis being responsible for 9/11 with the help of bin Laden and Al Queda, and it seems the cover ups attempted by the Bush administration are pointing to the possiblity that they too were in cahoots about a planned attack on 9-11, either knowing about it before or actually even being part of it. I always felt that they knew it was going to happen. If anyone can uncover the smoking gun on this, it will not only bring down the Bush administration, but the neo-con infested Republican Party with it.

[fascisthunter]

86. Not Just the Saudis

but to Bush himself.

[fascisthunter]

85. Did This Information Link Bush or other's Linked to Bushco?

I'm now wearing a tin foil hat, but that is what I'm asking, because it is possible.

[kitty1]

87. Pakistan's chief spy Lt. General Ahmad "was in the US when the attacks occurred.

Pakistan's chief spy Lt. General Mahmoud Ahmad "was in the US when the attacks occurred." He arrived in the US on the 4th of September, a full week before the attacks. He had meetings at the State Department "after" the attacks on the WTC. But he also had "a regular visit of consultations" with his US counterparts at the CIA and the Pentagon during the week prior to September 11.

What was the nature of these routine "pre-September 11 consultations"? Were they in any way related to the subsequent "post-September 11 consultations" pertaining to Pakistan's decision to cooperate with Washington. Was the planning of war being discussed between Pakistani and US officials?

On the 9th of September while General Ahmad was in the US, the leader of the Northern Alliance Commander Ahmad Shah Masood was assassinated. The Northern Alliance had informed the Bush Administration that the ISI was allegedly implicated in the assassination.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO111A.html

Something doesn't smell right all around. There was that large sum of money transferred to Atta, one of the highjackers thru the instuctions of Pakistani General Mahumd. Who was soon after relieved from office.

[Kurovski]

88. K&R. (nt)

[AntiFascist]

90. What also needs covering up....

the fact that Bush Senior split off and privatized parts of the CIA to support the Saudis.

[uberblonde]

91. Yep!

Kicked and recommended...

:kick:

[Kurovski]

94. Kick. (nt)

[KharmaTrain]

95. Did These Shitsticks Believe They Could Get Away With It?

Besides the sadistic pleasures that I'm certain crashcart gets every time he reads an interogation, was this regime so full of itself that it thought that it could torture as long as they won some great "victory"? Or at least present the image of one? Looking back at the early invasion days, this regime was cocksure that they had won "hearts and minds" with their "shock and awe" and that the end justified the means. Torture in this "glorious" crusade was a key to "victory". As those keys and the hearts and minds turned into road bombs and snipers, the only key left was/is the torture.

I also think this regime thought they could avoid any oversight...losing the House in '06 and the ensuing investigations has made them work hard to cover-up and attempt to rewrite history. They want the immunity for the Telcos not to help those companies avoid lawsuits, but to immunize themselves as well once the level of their invasions are disclosed. These tapes were destroyed in the wake of Abu Grahb...something they tried but couldn't spin away and knew that those videos could become another embarassment...and now they see it as another criminal charge they have to avoid.

Goss was sent into the CIA to "get things in order"...he failed miserably. I wonder if those nights playing poker with Duke Cunningham and his hookers had something to do with it? His mission was to whip the agency into shape, cook the intel the way this regime wanted it and destroy any trail. He failed at two of the three...and now it looks like he's gonna have some 'splainin' to do about these tapes.

Get ready for another investigation stymied by "executive privilidge" and "national security"...more smokescreens and stonewalls as this regime plays out the clock and continues to cover up their crimes.

[0007]

98. These bastards are so cock sure that they can get away with anything

and laugh in our face they never consider the consequences. They just keep digging a deeper hole.

[KharmaTrain]

99. That's Our Redemption...That's Our Mission

Here's hoping there are dozens of law suits...and an investigation by the world court. This regime deserves nothing less. They now act like they are guilty of the crimes and are doing all they can to destroy what evidence they can...but my hope is that their crimes are so widespread and in their arrogance, they also were sloppy...history will be our vindication. Our mission is to never let up on demanding both the truth and justice...to push for the investigations, prosecutions and convictions of as many of these boooosh criminals as we can.

Cheers...

[frogcycle]

103. doesn't it seem like there should be

some "higher authority" that could override provilege - on behalf of national security?

The current illegal occupants of the executive branch are NOT "the nation." "The nation" should be able to say "not so fast, asshole." But of course "the nation" is We the People, and most of us are now saying that and our elected representatives...

oh, wait...


OK, so its the executive AND the legislative branches that are out of control. But the SCOTUS...
oh, wait...


We need to rally The People like Tom Paine et al did back in the 1770's - we need to use our news media...

oh, wait...

we are so screwn

We are like the remaining humans in the future world in the Terminator movies. Or in the Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Or that Steven King novel where practically everyone has become a zombie

[Kansas Wyatt]

96. I trust the U.S. Government no more than I would trust....

The most evil government on the planet or an enemy of mine. Needless to say, no further than I could piss.

Our CIA would make the former KGB look like a bunch of boy scouts, if the truth be known.

Patriotism is bullshit, and I am repulsed by those waving the flag all the time. America is what and how you live, not the parroted propaganda that it has become today.

[Kurovski]

100. Kick. (nt)

[GliderGuider]

102. Here's a little speculation on how Saudi Arabia is woven onto the web of events these days

I wrote this article a while ago: Peak Oil, Saudi Arabia, 9/11 and the Iraq war.

I suspect 9/11 was cooked up by the Americans and Saudis together, in order to give the USA the casus belli for the Iraq war. One possible reason was to give them an opportunity to disguise the onrushing peak of Saudi oil production. The Saudis may have planned and executed 9/11 on their own, but I'm convinced the Americans suggested the idea in the first place, and they probably participated in some aspects of it.

[frogcycle]

104. .

[frogcycle]

105. the real irony

is that if they wanted to steal oil, Saudi Arabia would have been much easier to beat.

Strategically, if they wanted to take over the entire mideast, which is what the PNAC wants, starting there would have made more sense. Oh, sure the top guys are cozy with bushco, but when you are planning world domination, planning to subjugate everyone anyway, why not start with the low-hanging fruit?

Saudi Arabia has roughly the same population as Iraq, but more than ten times the territory. All they had to do was call them out like they did the Taliban - "with us or against us" and then go in with "shock and awe." Hell, they could have cooked up "intelligence" that OBL was back in SA just as easily as cooking up WMD. Think of all the bases we could have built from which to knock off Yemen, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan...

Geez - these guys can't even do Evil Empire right!

[AntiFascist]

107. The Bush family is very tight with Saudi royalty...

starting with collaborative business interests of key Texan oil people during Bush Senior's time in government. Even the bin Ladin family had members of the Board of the Carlyle Group. This administration will not easily turn on its business partners, although neocons and the religious right would like this to lead up to a major confrontation with the Islamic world. Keep in mind also, Saudi Arabia contains the two holiest sites which are the center of Islam.

[BelgianMadCow]

116. House of Bush, House of Saud

[DeanDem10]

143. The New Unger Book

The new Craig Unger book (Fall of the House of Bush) is outstanding.

[frogcycle]

132. yes I know all that

that's why its ironic. Their world domination aims are hindered by their own corruption.

[FogerRox]

126. KSA ships Nat Gas west to Yanbu

Route of IPSA pipeline.

Much of Saudi Arabia's natural gas production seems to come from the eastern part of the country, the offshore fields in the Persian Gulf and the NG associated with the Ghawar oil field.



Oil fields are dark, natural gas fields are green & red.

The IPSA pipeline was intended to be a way for Iraq to export oil via the Red Sea port of Mu'ajiz, near Yanbu, during the Iraqi Iranian War. Yandu & is a major industrial city utilizing NG for energy.



I see no reason why the northern leg to Iraq couldn't be used to bring in some Basra Light.

[libodem]

108. Weren't we discussing this on DU

about two years ago? It's just now coming to light?

[Sugar Smack]

110. YES.

We were talking about it. My friends at home suggesting I was a nutcase didn't help.

[BelgianMadCow]

114. Have that happen to me too

and most of the time, forget to remind them...

[Sugar Smack]

123. We can subtly ease it into conversation, I think : )

Although "HEY, SUCKA, where were you when I was trying to help you get your head out of your ass" is so much more gratifying. :P

[Leopolds Ghost]

109. Bush to Sheik: "What America Needs is a New Pearl Harbor" Sheik: "Say no more."

"And we still haven't caught the people that bombed the World Trade Center. I'm sure it won't be attacked again, right? Sheik, do what you can to look into that, but remember, if it IS attacked again, we will be ready for Saud's enemies."

"Oh yeah, Tenet -- tell journalists to ignore the Blind Sheik's published allegations about hijacking planes and flying them into buildings -- we don't want to alarm people. There are no Al Qaeda agents on US soil capable of carrying out such an attack, got it?"

"Oh yeah, and tell our undercover ops trying to infiltrate Al Quaeda to let the Saudis do it. My dad's friends in the Saudi government have excellent contacts in the ISI and Binladin Group. They have promised to do the job of infiltrating Al Qaeda for us."

[me b zola]

112. k&r

[Baby Snooks]

128. And what sayeth Madame Speaker?

The reality is Congress will do nothing and Madame Speaker has made that perfectly clear. This will be handled the same way Iran-Contra was handled. Swept under the carpet and then the carpet will be removed.

We will all probably have an odd sense of deja vu - a Bush will pardon whomever has been or might be indicted and a Clinton will stop any further investigation of the matter. Or any matter connected to it.

We no longer live in a democracy. Despite the delusion of some that we do.

[petgoat]

130. What is this conspiracy crap doing on the Greatest Page?

Doesn't this belong in the 9/11 Dungeon?

[syberlion]

133. After reading all this...

I just want to say there are several things that seem rather interesting in all this. If we shrink this down to something smaller, say like a simple murder investigation by a city, county or even a state level entity. The malfeasance would have several local politicos behind bars or at the very least tarred and feathered.

The over-all impression i get here is best summed up with the quote, "Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." This is the current (illegal) administration's mantra. They say it first thing upon waking, all during the day and several times before falling asleep. They have an un-dying faith in this, their bedrock belief system. Even when confronted with the facts, as was recently demonstrated by the national intelligence report about Iran, The talking points didn't change (much). They still have faith they can carry the day with the big lie.

Another quote comes to mind,"It is always more difficult to fight against faith than against knowledge." Which we are discovering on a daily basis. With all the facts and rumors of facts coming out about 9/11, the Iraq war, Katrina, Blackwater, the politicizing of the Justice Dept., ad nauseum. All the evidence is piling up like so much rotting flesh (real and metaphorical), with so many ignoring the stench this current (illegal) administration is creating, the one question I ask is, "what are we not seeing?"

Many I've talked to have whispered about the threat of martial law and the completion of the U.S. dictatorship as reasons why the congressional branch hasn't dispensed it's constitutional duty. Others have stated it's better to just ignore a dying administration and move on with new leadership. Still, others have suggested there's not enough support among the people, or that the people aren't uncomfortable enough to protest the current situation.

As to manufactured reasons to rally enough support for war (9/11), there are historical examples. Just one example, in 1898 the Warship Maine was sunk in Cuban waters and the huge cry by the msm supposedly carried the US into the Spanish-American War. This is still debated to this day, which came first, the media or the desire for war. Point is, sensational media is not new. Powerful persons wanting to direct public sentiment is not new.

What IS new is the global reach of msm. Back then you had men like Hearst, today you have Rupert Murdoch. Hearst was national, Rupert Murdoch is international. Which brings me to another quote, "All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach."

It was easy to point the finger outside this country to a country already under "house arrest" with "no fly zones" (anyone remember that?). A country lead by an ego-maniac who, with the right kind of villainous music played in the background, made for a perfect patsy. Ignoring all the facts which came out in the first few days after 9/11, and all the data afterwards pointing to anyone other than Iraq, it was a masterful example of what can be accomplished with the complete collusion between the media, those in power and manipulating the data in your favor (or the truth as they see it).

The leaders in Congress were duped. They were taken into the back rooms and politically raped. Now, they hesitate because they were wined and dined before the rape. If congress moves forward with impeachment, there would be questions. Maybe there were promises given in these back room intelligence briefings. The whole thing stinks.

What does all this have to do with this thread? Simplicity. If you want to get the message to the people, you have to get it into a simple enough story that can be remembered and passed on to others. With all the levels of intrigue and mountains of story lines intertwined, getting all of this wrapped up into some simple story is the great challenge. Those in the current (illegal) administration understand this and practice this with surgical precision. Simple phrases like "Terrorist threat", "Mushroom cloud", and others which are repeated carry their message effectively.

Someone evoked the name of Thomas Paine earlier in this thread, I believe this is fitting. Getting the truth out there isn't enough. Getting the truth out there and having it spread like wild-fire, that is the goal. It's not enough to know what you know anymore. It's knowing what you know and forwarding that information to others. Only when there are enough people standing in front of the steps of congress, when there are enough people standing in front of the local offices of their congressional representatives, when there are too many people for those supposedly in power representing the people to ignore, then there can be change.

Until then knowing the truth is not enough anymore.

By the way, the quotes are from a fairly famous bad man... Hitler.

Things to make you go, "Hmmmm."

[Kurovski]

138. Welcome to DU, syberlion.

You're correct, it isn't enough to just know the truth.

[Sugar Smack]

140. WELCOME.

Thank you for being here. :hug:

[frogcycle]

141. well said

and welcome to DU

Your final point is the big challenge. The catchphrases like "mushroom cloud" and "terrorist threat" work because the evoke an immediate image of something horrific.

By contrast, look at how hard Joe McCarthy had to work to build the hysteria over the "Red Threat" with a "commie under every bed." Yes, it got a lot of mileage, but had the soviets not developed the bomb when they did, it would have gone nowhere. The concept of social programs like a national health program has been beaten back time and again as being "socialized medicine" which is equated to "socialism" which is equated to "communism" which is equated to "MAD" and the "mushroom cloud."

The threat we face of a complete fascist takeover of the US government is greater than any threat ever posed by the New Deal programs, but the conventional wisdom on the right is that there is no such threat. They accuse progressives of appeasing terrorists while they follow in Chamberlain's footsteps appeasing the real threats - bush, cheney, et al.

This is largely due to basic human nature - greed. Big business foresees an ever-more friendly atmosphere in which to increase profits and obscene payouts to the oligarchs. The religious right foresees expansion of government-mandated religion-based policies and laws and has no problem whatsoever with that.

Many who really don't have a dog in those hunts have a gut feeling that what is good for business is good for them - after all, they are employed by a business.

Getting people's attention that there is a real and present danger will take, unfortunately, very tangible, easy-to-comprehend evidence. Until someone finds the smoking guns - and I mean right then, right after a tragedy, with the bodies still warm, we won't get the groundswell that is needed. The available evidence - preponderance of evidence - of malfeasance by this administration is overwhelming, to those willing to see it. It is so much sound and fury, signifying nothing, to most. They are as willing to ignore it as I am the claims about Vince Foster's death or Kathleen Willey's cat.

I believe there is real, tangible evidence to be had. Someone knows exactly who ordered the stand-down of the air defenses on Sept 11. Someone knows who decided to let Bin Laden escape Tora Bora. That the events occurred is real. They continue to be dismissed as coincidence or slipups until someone traces them up the chain of command to the source. Too late for those events, but with today's atmosphere, maybe, just maybe, the next event will get the attention of congress, the press, someone, who will catch somebody red-handed.

[friendly_iconoclast]

137. This is getting play at National Review Online, FWIW

Note David Frum's blog of 7 December:

http://frum.nationalreview.com/

Not all on the right are happy with Bush, it seems. This mention on National Review's site speaks volumes to those paying attention.