Women, self defense, and rape.

[I work for workers]

The other thread about rape reminded me of a discussion I would often have in college; I think most women have an extremely skewed perspective when it come to rape defense and unrealistic ideas about how to overcome a rapist. For whatever reason, most women don't seem to like the idea of really trying to learn how to defend themselves. Every women I know wants to feel safe against against the threat of rape. I know ONE who is willing to do what it takes to learn how to defend herself; several hours of strenuous (but enjoyable) practice a week, usually via high intensity wrestling with a larger male partner. It's no coincidence she was the victim of rape.

I'm posting this because of some escape tactics I read on the other rape thread, ranging from the oft heard "punch him in the dick" to things like "force yourself to puke" or "pee your pants". I'm going to say it directly; those are far from your best options and if that is the height of your self defense plan, you may be quite literally fucked.

Back in college I ran a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu club. The club had (and still does have) a good membership; 8 regular members and another 20 or so people who would periodically train. All of our members were men. As far as I know this is still the case today. This bothers me, because I believe Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (and grappling in general) is the single most valuable martial art for rape defense.

For those who aren't familiar with it, BJJ is a martial art similar to wrestling but with a heavy focus on defense and offense while on the ground. If you have ever seen a UFC fight, chances are you have seen someone using BJJ. There are close parallels between grappling positions and sex positions. A women being raped is probably going to find herself in either missionary position (the BJJ guard position) or in some kind of rear entry position (a wrestling side mount or back mount). A good base in BJJ will maximize her chance to defeat her attacker and may save her life.

I tried to sell girls on this aspect of training, but had very little success. I talked to at least 30 enthusiastic girls (full conversations, not just one or two sentences), yet only three ever tried it and all left within a month. I understand that the environment was not entirely satisfactory (grappling a bunch of sweaty guys is not that appealing to most women), but getting raped is far worse.

The demand for self defense is definitely there. The accredited self defense class the college ran was always filled with women. Unfortunately too much of what was taught there was unrealistic and good technique was not forced on the students at all. I think this further hurt my chances of reaching out to women, as every girl who tries our club has taken Self Defense and comes not liking the idea of having to work hard or spar with a male partner. What they never seemed to consider is this; if they are raped they will have to work hard to defeat a male attacker.

[I work for workers]

1. I don't mean to offend anyone with this thread.

I just want to make that clear right off the bat. I have great sympathy for anyone who has ever been victimized, and most of what I posted could apply to men just as easily.

The unfortunate truth is that it is women, much more so then men, who are hurt this way. If I get one women to decide to really prepare herself, then it's worth posting.

[Pastiche423]

13. Whether you did not mean to offend or not - you did

Have you ever been raped? Have you ever been adducted by three men w/knives? Have you ever been had someone demand you commit a sickening act w/a gun pointed at your head? Have you ever been beaten w/i an inch of your life and left for dead?

There is no way to defend yourself from rape when the rapists have weapons and use them.

[I work for workers]

16. I apologize if I offended you. Like I said, I didn't mean to.

Someone in a situation like that is pretty screwed. Luckily (I preemptively apologize for a horrible choice of words there, I just can't think of another way to say it) that kind of rape is the minority. Most are one on one attacks, and most of those are acquaintance rapes, in which the attacker is familiar to the victim.

My point it basically that it doesn't hurt to learn to defend yourself in a rape like circumstance, and that anyone truly serious about self defense should be willing to put a lot of effort into it.

Agian, I really didn't mean to offend. I've never been raped, but I have a friend who has been. It's a terrible, life changing experience that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Not even GW.

[Pastiche423]

17. What you are trying to sell is false hope

Until you are in that type of situtation and can fully understand it, then stop acting like you know what the fuck you are talking about.

Btw, were you w/your friend when she was raped?

[I work for workers]

19. With all due respect, what's the alternative to trying to b prepared? nt

[Pastiche423]

20. Please re-read my 1st comment in this thread

[EFerrari]

53. You're not prepared if you first respond AFTER you have been overwhelmed.

You are full of it.

[Sugar Smack]

25. Hey, Pastiche. This whole issue got me thinking about women in the Congo

and of fistulas. I visit a website now & then called endfistulanow. It offers meals and hospital care to women who are victims of gang rape within the the war there. These women have absolutely NO means of protection. This is a war against women.

The results are too heartbreaking for some friends of mine to even listen to. I've been trying to tell people about this, to no avail. :(

[Pastiche423]

40. You don't have to live in the Congo to be gang raped

[Sugar Smack]

41. I never said that. I was adding another dimension to the discussion.

One that exists to this day.

[RamboLiberal]

33. Why does someone have to be raped to discuss this?

I've known women who have escaped rapists. In fact one of my friends cold-cocked an attacker with a backfist to the temple. She was a black belt.

And I've certainly read and heard many other stories of women who have fought back either unarmed or with a weapon and escaped.

One personal decision I've made is never to get in a vehicle with an attacker. Kill me now. I'd rather die there than have to endure the fear and degradation, and probable certain death that awaits even if there would be a slim chance of escape.

[Pastiche423]

42. I fought back

And now I am paralyzed for life AND have to endure the fear and degradation.

[RamboLiberal]

46. I'm sorry that happened to you

But that doesn't mean the rest of us have to resort to not fighting back. Perhaps fighting will save us. And not fighting will mean death or serious injury.

One has to judge and take their chances at the time. There is not one best solution for every situation. I think you are wrong to say that even a discussion of fighting back is to give false hope.

[Pastiche423]

48. If I am wrong about false hope

then so were every officer and detective in the Sexual Crime Unit during the investigation of my case.

[RamboLiberal]

57. But were they talking about every case of rape

or just yours? And from a lot of research I've done on this subject a lot of male police officers don't encourage women to fight back. I don't think they are always right either.

[Pastiche423]

58. They certainly were right in my case

[Riktor]

73. Statistically...

... if you are going to be violently raped, chances are the attacker will be more than capable of overcoming whatever resistance you may have to offer. Since rape is about dominance and control, not sex, those victims who do put up a fight are often brutalized further for their lack of submission. Ultimately, you have to weigh out your options. Do you want to fight back, hoping to win out against nigh unbeatable odds, or do you want to suffer the indignity of it all and greatly increase your chances of merely surviving?

Obviously, there are varying methods of rape, and violent rape is by far the least common. With that in mind, it couldn't hurt to learn self-defense against date rape and other forms of nonviolent rape, where the offenders aren't quite as willing to use physical force to get what they want.

[Whisp]

74. other forms of nonviolent rape?

jeebus cripes.

[Riktor]

78. Oh, for fuck's sake...

... there's a huge brutality differential between a frisky fratboy and a hooded serial rapist with a silk-ripper and a Saturday night special. You can play semantics all you want, but I'm not falling for flame bait. "Nonviolent" was clearly in reference to direct physical harm, not the psychological harm inflicted by all forms of rape, so you can take your condescension and your nitpicking elsewhere.

[Whisp]

79. a frisky fratboy....

vs. a hooded regular bona fide rapist.

okay, gotcha.

piss right off. k?

[readmoreoften]

50. I'm really so sorry. Horrific.

There's no words...

It's not your fault. Sometimes there's nothing that can be done. Be well, friend. Your story is important.

[Pastiche423]

51. Thank you

[krispos42]

80. There was a rape case recently...

I think within the last year.

IIRC, it went something like this: jury finds accused rapist guilty. Judge overturns jury verdict on the grounds that, because the woman didn't fight back (she went limp and just 'took it' to avoid bodily harm), it was consensual sex. Rapist goes free.

I remember this because I cursed pretty loudly at the result. Disgusting, disgusting, disgusting. No justice for anybody. In your case, did the rapists get caught?

[Pastiche423]

82. No, they did not

And that hasn't helped w/the PTSD, which a sliver of it is needling at me tonight.

When someone that hasn't been violently raped creates a post asking, would you fight or not, it is trigger for me and others that have been.

All of those questions that kept occupying my brain in the aftermath, suddenly can come back full force i.e. Was I right to fight back? Should I have been more submissive? Would I still be able to walk if I had not fought?

Thinking that a defensive course is going to help someone not get raped, IMHO, is naive. It would most likely help in a mugging or an assault by attacker w/o a weapon, though.

Saying a course would help prevent getting raped is not only foolish, but insulting to those here that have experienced the opposite.

[October]

91. You are right to speak out here!

Your posts are very powerful and moving. I'm so sorry to hear your story and think of what's happened to you. Your opinion is anything but humble (re: IMHO).

[RamboLiberal]

99. But there are women who whether armed or having self-defense

knowledge who have fought back and not been raped. In fact we had a couple of posters in this thread who fought back and survived. I'm sorry again for what happened to you but your case is one case. I can sympathize that this thread triggers your PTSD. But this thread should not be insulting to you.

Everyone who ever trains in the Martial Arts or in self-defense must understand they could be beaten but they also know they at least have a good chance if they fight back. You were not wrong in fighting back, none of us can know what happened to you and judge your actions. Anyone who has something terrible happen to them will always question their own actions at that time.

Each woman has to make that decision on her own whether to train or not. Whether to carry a gun or some other weapon or not. And at the time if she does face an attack whether to fight back or not.

I'm not going to let your unfortunate outcome deter me from doing all I can personally to have an option if I'm attacked.

I think your telling the rest of us that self-defense training is a false hope is insulting. Sorry, but that's how I feel!

[Pastiche423]

103. I can not believe

how fucking offensive and condescending you are!

It must be nice living in lalaland, but I prefer reality.

[RamboLiberal]

106. Sorry for your situation but it is you who are offensive and

condescending to many of us including the OP and any woman who fought back and won! I live in my reality as well - which is to try to do all I can to never end up in your situation. Quit telling us what fools we are because we choose to train in MA or carry a gun.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RamboLiberal]

108. Clue me in what the hell is ES&D?

I guess you put me on ignore though I have not been impolite to you. Again I'm sorry what happened to you but I'm tired of tiptoeing around you.

On edit I googled ES&D - sent an alert. I don't appreciate it and I'm considering putting you on my ignore list which is usually non-existent or very short on DU.

[supernova]

2. I happen to agree with your basic premise

that a lot of what is aimed at women in the self defense arena, really isn't. It's designed to make you feel more comfortable, but doesn't give you anything practical you'd think of using in the moment.

Is there something about it that is more difficult, perhaps than other martial arts?

[I work for workers]

3. Compared to most martial arts, it is trained at a higher level of intensity.

It's a form of grappling, not striking. People aren't getting hit (although that can be worked in very easily) and you win by submitting your opponent with a joint lock or choke. Because of this, you can train at virtually full force without much risk of serious injury. You can't really do this as easily when getting hit. Wikipedia or youtube has some pretty good info.

Talking up BJJ is only half my point. It is great rape defense (I can choke someone unconscious or break their arm from the missionary position, even if they have a big strength advantage on me), but it's only worth what you put into it. If you work hard and often, you learn quick and it will stick with you. If you don't, it's a waste of time.

Whatever a person wants to learn to defend them self, they have to be willing to put effort into it. Hour long rape defense seminars will be forgotten on the ride home. Even if what was taught was very good, if you don't practice, you lose it.

[BadgerLaw2010]

5. No effective martial art is "easy." Anything trained right is difficult.

Women may be uncomfortable with having to BJJ grapple with a male partner as it's pretty damn close contact, but considering that, if they're taking it for self-defense purposes, the entire point is knowing how to use it against what's almost certainly a bigger, stronger male opponent who's grabbing you...that comes with the territory.

Self-defense isn't necessarily by sex and weight class.

Other self-defense, such as Muay Thai and full-contact karate, isn't any more gentile to learn. While you might not be wrestling with an opposite sex partner, *those* arts are about trying to absolutely level someone with a very nasty strike. That can, and does, make people uncomfortable in another way.

Muay Thai is known as "self defense for those with good lawyers" because many of the strikes can kill or maim outright. Either you want to learn that or you don't.

[I work for workers]

21. Muay Thai is brutal. I woud not want to take a Thai kick to the head.

I don't meant to start a "my 1337 m@rtial art p0wn5 yours" thread, there are a lot of good training options out there. I mostly bring up grappling in this case because it translated into sex positions so well.

[supernova]

93. Except that I didn't say that

any martial art is easy.

I was asking of people in that field consider BJJ more difficult than other martial arts.

Thanks for the info though.

[JuniperLea]

4. This is one of many, but not the only one that would work

There are many self defense organizations who give great advice on this subject. The one common element is the way a woman carries herself. The confidence a course like this brings, the awareness of her surroundings, the firm and steady walking... these alone can and have caused an attacker to move along.

My only issue with your most informative OP, is that you tend to uphold your method as the only one viable, and condemn all others as being useless. I can't swallow that. But I thank you for giving women at DU another option!

[coffee_strong]

6. Those things

talked about in the thread has worked(urinating,vomiting), for how many I don't know for sure. i'm pretty sure it wouldn't work the majority of the time, but hey even if it works once it's worth it. Best thing is to try to avoid them getting you on the ground, chances of getting free are pretty slim then. Most MMA's will tell you that.

[JuniperLea]

7. Yep...

This has been a subject near and dear to my heart for nearly 30 years now. You never know... your attacker could know all about the martial arts himself! Women need to arm themselves with knowledge of what has worked in the past. A kick to the crotch, a swipe of the keys across a face, grabbing his head and putting your thumbs into his eye sockets, screaming obscenities... the list is long. Not everything will work in all cases, and in some cases, nothing will work. But women need to empower themselves to try. Sometimes all you need is a brief moment of confusion or pain to make an escape.

[I work for workers]

11. Personally I think being smart and staying alert will protect most people from ebing attacked.

This is more of an observation about what happens if everything else fails and someone is attempting to rape you.

Quite honestly, guys are good at protecting our junk. We learn to do so at a young age and it sticks with us. Things like clawing eyes and punching dicks, while effective, are the first thing most people expect a women to try and do to defend herself.

I've been hit pretty hard in the crotch. If I have enough adrenaline going, I can shake it off. It sucks, but I can still keep on doing what I'm doing.

[I work for workers]

12. I completely agree with that point! Being smart if 99% of self defense.

I posted this more in regards to situations when being smart wasn't enough and someone is actually getting attacked.

[RamboLiberal]

36. Yep - check out that back seat for one

Read a story just this week in my area where a woman went in to a convenience store late at night. Didn't notice the guy hiding in her backseat. Sexually assaulted though thankfully she lived to report it to the police.

[Sugar Smack]

18. What about Aikido? Is that the martial art where the attacker has his/her own

force used against themselves? What's the gist of that? Do you know?

[RamboLiberal]

35. Aikido could be effective - the masters are beauty in motion

but I think it's one of those arts you have to train 4-5 years to be really effective. I think you spend quite a while just learning how to fall and be thrown. Watch some of the Steven Seagal movies - he was trained in Aikido - of course he upped the violence for the screen.

[sakabatou]

8. As a martial-arts instructor

I also know several techniques.

[gollygee]

9. There's something wrong with our society

where we recognize there's a problem with rape, and the solution is for 50% of the population to undergo: "several hours of strenuous (but enjoyable) practice a week, usually via high intensity wrestling with a larger male partner". And the work is to be done by the potential victims.

[Reader Rabbit]

86. I used to teach self-defense to girls, and I agree.

I am/was a second degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and I taught self-defense to middle school aged girls at a "Girls Night Out" function. It retrospect, it was appalling that we blithely acknowledged that there were men out there who wanted to harm them, and that we were preparing them to deal with it at the ages of 11, 12, and 13.

Around that same time, I read an interview of someone—can't remember who or where—in which the interviewee stated something to the effect of, "Why do we teach our girls how to avoid and escape rape? Why don't we teach our boys NOT to become rapists?"

It really opened my eyes to how backwards our thinking is about rape and sexual assault.

[Sugar Smack]

10. Welcome to DU!! I wanted to ask you about pressure points.

Are there certain ones that can paralyze another person or cause debilitating pain when jabbed?

[I work for workers]

14. From what I've experienced, no.

I'm FAR from an expert on martial arts. I do one, and I'm at a relatively low level. But I have been gouged, poked, jabbed, and nipple twisted many times, and I have never found one thing that would stop me dead in my tracks (I guess a solid blow to the jaw, but that's not so much a pressure point...). Even if there is, it's surprisingly hard to poke a small area on someone struggling.

[Sugar Smack]

15. Thanks for your reply. All the same, I'm going to look into it because

I've heard of people effectively using them (and not just in movies *lol*) but actually causing someone to be paralyzed for a few seconds.

[I work for workers]

23. If your interested, here is a good BJJ video.

It illustrates some of the things I've been talking about a lot more clearly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjK0g-cDJI4

[Sugar Smack]

26. I can't get youtube, cause I'm on dial-up.

Thanks anyway!

[mtnester]

113. There are points on the hand near the wrist, and yes, the spock touch works

when applied perfectly, as do the pressure points.

However, in an extreme stress situation, it is unlikely that you would be able to apply these perfectly without years of training (even then it may be unlikely).

What I was taught by my father, who is STILL a police officer

1. DO NOT let the attacker force you into a car..you have to make your stand right there...even if the attacker is armed. You have a better likelihood of surviving than if you get in the car, when your odds of murder in addition to the rape exponentially skyrocket.

2. The ear - it only takes 7 pounds of committed jerk to rip an ear off if you get your nails in behind it and hold tight (commitment is the key here). You must also then hold it up, show it to your attacker, then thrown it away from you. The attacker will almost always take steps toward the ear, or release you enough for a brief time TO ESCAPE (the point it ALWAYS to escape). You can watch a video of this technique at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL96BpzEzNs&feature=related In fact, I recommend most of the related videos as well. You are IN A STREET FIGHT, and pretty martial arts moves are probably not likely.

3. The finger rip - think about how quickly someone will let go if you can manage to get a finger of theirs in each hand and rip apart...maybe enough time for you TO ESCAPE

4. Cheap eye gouges, throat hits, head butts - these may work....going for the balls is the first thing your attacker will defend for so probably not the moe to make...HOWEVER...if you have an opportunity to make a direct ball shot or stomp, do so as it will incapacitate your attacker...IF you have a clean shot.

5. If you are going to go defensive, you MUST make the loudest noises at all times. The attacker will try to keep you from doing so, and can be a distracting issue which can give you the opportunity TO ESCAPE.

6. Distracting tactics - I watched a self defense instructor who has seen it all get stopped in his tracks by a simply finger flick to the forehead by a savvy student. Student was able to simply step away (ESCAPE) because the instructor (attacker) did not expect that. Yelling at a fictitious person behind the attacker can also work to get you free for a second TO ESCAPE

All of that said, there are times when you cannot defend or are unable to defend or make the decision to not defend for whatever reason (in my case, unable to due to something in my drink and my inability to react to what I knew was happening to me) I was lucky to survive due to the remote location of my attack, and my inability to defend due to the drugs. I think I only did as it was a date rape. Had this been a stranger, I am pretty sure I would still be lying in the woods at the corner of Palmer and Taylor...twenty seven years later.


Women do need to understand their statistical risks. 1 in 4....if you are a female, 1 in 4 chance of being the victim of a violent crime in your lifetime.......we all know our risk of breast cancer which is dang near the same odds...it is sad many of us do not know our odds on violent crime.

[RamboLiberal]

24. Pressure points are not the easiest things to learn

For instance one night when I was a red belt I was taught a pressure point by the elbow. I could apply if effectively in probably 90%+ cases in the training hall, but I found the majority of students just never could quite learn to find that one spot and apply it. And there were some people it just did not work on.

Also I was realistic about it. It was a nice demo on a big guy in the training hall, but I figured it would not be the easiest thing to apply on the street. BTW, there is one famous American master who claims he can knock someone out just by the chi force from his hand w/o even touching. He's been debunked from what I've seen. Most of the masters I know laughed at his antics.

I'd go with an art that taught grappling and effective strikes - and if that strike is to an effective pressure point, better yet.

[Sugar Smack]

27. Good to know.

I feel like I *might* be good at pressure points because I'm so familiar with my own body, but I'll look more into the grappling.

*cheers*

[wiggs]

22. I'm a BJJ student...take some MMA classes as well, and there are

many ladies in there who like the sport and have the side benefit of increased self defense capability. We often talk of the difference, though, between real BBJ and self defense in which head butts and strikes are fair game. I think to take BBJ classes and MMA both would be helpful and interesting.

I go to 4-6 classes per week....fun and interesting.

[Fierce]

28. Maybe men should just stop raping.

Then we wouldn't have to blame women for not fighting hard enough.

[Pastiche423]

29. Nah, it's easier to blame women for not fighting hard enough

[I work for workers]

31. Maybe George Bush should apologize and turn himself into the authorities.

I won't hold my breath for that either. The sad fact is that there will always be bad people who will do terrible things.

There is a huge difference between encouraging women to prepare for something, and trying to put blame on them. In no way am I intending to do the latter.

[coffee_strong]

34. You will get more accusatory posts like that

one thing about(some) victim/survivors, is that they make a conscious decision never to become victims again. That can be in form of the *victim mentality* as well. Examples, oh they are blaming me again,oh they are saying it's my fault(even tho they just asked a simple uestion) If i'm constantly being defensive or acting like the victim, I will never learn. I choose to learn....

[Pastiche423]

39. One thing about (some) people,

is that they add on more hurt on top of injury by saying the person that was raped can form a *victim mentality*.

Which is the same thing as blaming women.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malakai2]

76. To assume rape will cease is asinine

Whether or not humans can make it through life without committing violent acts on other humans has been answered a few billion times over in practice. Whether or not humans do make it through life without committing violent acts on other humans has also been answered a few billion times over in practice. Guess how that turned out.

[Fierce]

89. Fortunately, I'm not "assuming" it will "cease".

What I'm working for is for people to examine and understand why it happens -- and why we let it happen. And then we can work together to stop it.

I don't like living in a world where some men are expected to rape. How about you?

[truth2power]

61. I am sorry that some of the responses to your OP have been so negative...

You have raised an important issue and have provided useful information. Thank you for that.

I am amazed that there would be an issue about the woman having to do all the work in a rape situation. I guess that is the case because the rapist certainly isn't going to help you out, so you better be willing to do the work that's necessary and that you're capable of in order to save yourself.

That men should stop raping goes without saying, but I don't think that's going to occur in my lifetime. So, we're on our own, more or less. And, there will always be times when someone is outgunned, so to speak, or the attacker has a knife and your options are pretty slim. That doesn't mean you shouldn't learn whatever techniques might help in the event you can seize an advantage.

Finally, the advice, in another post here, not to ever get into a car with an attacker, I think is good advice. Just my opinion. Make your stand right there. Even if they have a gun. I read somewhere, and it makes sense to me, that if you can get away, it is surprisingly difficult to hit a moving target, especiallly if the shooter is not a trained marksman, as is likely to be the case with most rapists.

In addition, even if you are wounded while running away, the probability is that the wound won't be lethal. Another thing in your favor.

Some years ago, right here in my community, a young woman was abducted from the parking lot of the local mall. Her attacker managed to get her into his car and took her to a remote area in the next county, raped and killed her, and her body was found weeks later. It turned out that he was a serial rapist. Maybe had killed others, I don't remember. He was caught and I don't remember if he got the death penalty. He should have, IMO. This case made the national news. I've always thought this was instructive of what can happen if someone gets you into their car.

Yes, I am female, and no, thankfully, I've never been raped. I wish I could find a place in my area that taught the techniques you're talking about.

[I work for workers]

64. If you are interested, try looking at this site:

http://www.mma.tv/

Hit the "Find a School" link on the left menu.

Even if it seems intimidating to start, I can tell you for a fact that the vast majority of martial arts instructors are eager to find female students, because it makes it much easier for them to find more female students. They will be more then happy to train you. Try to get a friend to go with you, it made it much more enjoyable for me when I started.

If you are interested in talking to some other women who train BJJ, you can check this site:

http://jiujitsutalk.com/index.php

There are a few women on there who post frequently, and would be happy to share their experience with you. Don't even bother reading the politics forum though, it's a lost cause to reach those people.

[truth2power]

65. Thank you. I'll check those out. n/t

[uppityperson]

67. Men should stop raping, people should stop blaming women, women should be able to learn some

techniques to repel people. Yes, there is no 1 right answer for ever assault. But also yes, sometimes knowing some physical stuff may help.

[TahitiNut]

70. Good idea. Let me know how that's working out, huh?

I don't know about you, but I'd like to know about what *I* can do ... instead of just hoping someone else does or doesn't do something. What *I* do *IS* under my control ... and all the rest IS NOT. It has nothing to do with blame - it has to do with self-determination.

That's part of what's wrong with our culture - we start doing it as kids and keep doing it. ("Why should *I* wash the dishes? Other people made them dirty, too!") Gosh! It'd be a wonderful world if EVERYONE only had to do what they, themselves were to "blame" for! Or not.

[uppityperson]

71. Yeah, the latest in stopping rapes. Shake your finger in his face and say

"men should just stop raping".

[TahitiNut]

72. Makes me wonder why nobody ever thought of that before.

Go figure. :eyes:

I know, as sure as I know my name, that I'd probably kill anyone I caught raping someone, or even trying - even though I wasn't to "blame" for what they were doing. There I'd go again - doing something that's "not my job." Dumb.

[Fierce]

88. Yeah, expecting men to act like human beings is a total waste of time.

And looking at what society does, subtly and overtly, to teach men it's OK to rape is absolutely pointless. Looking at the root cause of why men think they can rape is a lost cause.

[shireen]

97. what's your definition of "men"? Surely you're not generalizing ...

Most men believe rape is a sick disgusting crime. I don't think that our society, as a whole, teaches men that it's OK to rape. Quite the opposite.

Men who rape are psychopaths, unable to tell right from wrong, feel empathy, shame, or remorse. If they could, they would not be out there committing these acts. That's a small percentage of the male population, but a predatory one that constantly seeks opportunities to attack.

[eShirl]

115. DUers are so pragmatic

that's what I love about this place

[RamboLiberal]

30. I agree with you on the grappling

BTW I spent 27+ years in karate. There are some techniques that I learned there that I think would be useful if I ever needed them, for instance a good strike to the knee, elbow to the head, strike to the throat, eye gouge, etc but a lot of what was taught IMHO was crap when it came down to self-defense, especially for a smaller person or woman against a bigger, stronger opponent. I wish we had spent more time on ground fighting.

And a lot of classes for self-defense for women have crap techniques in them as well.

I wish instructors would expose their students to a bunch of techniques. My ideal martial arts school would have a different curriculum each night of the week and be geared to self-defense so students would be well-grounded.

I also believe women should learn to fight with weapons. Stick fighting from the Phillipines for instance. Turn that umbrella, or stick on the ground in to a weapon. Or a knife.

Another get down and dirty art I thought might have some good self-defense potential is Krav Maga. Wish we had a school in my area I could check out.

And I think there is some value to the courses where women are allowed to go full force against a fully padded male opponent.

And I'm an advocate of women if they have the mindset that they can take a life if need be to learn how to shoot a handgun and perhaps a shotgun in the home. There are a lot of good schools and instructors out there who can provide you with good tactical training in handguns. I spend a lot of fun weekends in defensive handgun competition which while I realize is not a self-defense exercise per se it still gives me valuable training in shooting from a variety of positions, close quarters from a retentiuon position to prevent a gun grab, shooting from cover, shooting in low light, shooting moving targets, from a vehicle, etc.

I realize that there could be a situation even the best trained couldn't fight their way out of - but there may be situations you can escape if you had the training.

One thing I always thought when I saw women sweating their buns off in an aerobic or aerobic kickboxing class - why not get that same exercise learning something that just may save your life.

Yeah it's a sorry world where we women are exposed to rape and degradation and fear. I'm just choosing to do what I can to prevent myself from being a victim. And I want to have some ability to fight back when I'm elderly. I see far to many stories where elderly people, male and female, are attacked by these perverts.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

32. thanks for posting this K&R n/t

[alarimer]

37. It's probably very different if the perp has a gun

I, for one, would submit to anything if someone had a gun aimed at me. Sorry, live to deal with the aftermath later. Self-defense doesn't do shit if someone has a weapon, particularly a gun. It's not worth fighting if you end up dead.

[RamboLiberal]

43. There's a couple of exceptions I would make where I would fight

in all probability. I decided I would never get in a vehicle and go with him. I'd rather be killed there than to undergo the horrendous fear, degradation and probable death that awaited. Or that situation where I've read too often of a group of employees being herded in to a back room or cooler and executed. I think I'd rather take my chances and try to fight or run.

[truth2power]

63. Please see my post, #63 above. n/t

[gollygee]

38. I think women should read The Gift of Fear

very good book about red flags in the behavior of potential rapists.

[RamboLiberal]

45. Agreed on that book - I have to dig out my copy and read it again

[EFerrari]

54. Right on. I had a great conversation with Gavin.

He absolutely knows what he's talking about.

[RamboLiberal]

77. Another one: Beauty Bites Beast: Awakening the Warrior Within Women and Girls

Gavin de Becker wrote the foreward to this one. Couldn't get link to post correctly but just Google "Beauty Bites Beast" and a google link to excerpts is at top.

[backscatter712]

44. There's something to be said for women protecting themselves with a licensed, concealed firearm.

Don't get me wrong - firearms need to be handled responsibly, but a person trained in their use, and licensed to carry one concealed on their person, has a tool for devastatingly effective self-defense.

[Whisp]

75. something more to be said about rapists who think

they can just take. the problem is not how to defend, the problem is why there are so many rapists.

[I work for workers]

84. I'd say those are both problems worth addressing.

I like your icon, by the way.

[readmoreoften]

47. Thank you and welcome. And that's from someone who's been sexually assaulted more than once.

It's been over a year since I posted on DU, but I'm going to start again with this post.

These "I'll tell ya what I would do..." comments are really nothing more than women trying to convince themselves that they are immune from assault because they are (take your pick) smarter, craftier, stronger, or more courageous than other women. These sorts of comments are similar to the "If I was in Gitmo, I'd show those guards a thing or two". They are fantasies of power, armchair quarterbacking, and have little basis in reality.

I've been sexually assaulted three times in my adult life. I managed to escape before the assault turned to rape in all three cases. I hold no illusions that my survival techniques would've worked in other situations or weren't, in part, sheer luck. I think the best and only possible defenses are jiu-jitsu. Not just one or two classes in jiu-jitsu, but a sustained commitment to learning the art of fighting in this respect. Weapons might also work in some cases.

Many women don't commit to martial arts training for a number of reasons--most of which stem directly from being raised as women. Martial arts courses cost money, and women make less. Martial arts courses involve wrestling with sweaty men, and that can be traumatic for those who have already been sexually assaulted or who fear it tremendously. Committing a significant portion of your free time to learning how to avoid rape can also feel oppressive in itself. Some women feel out-of-shape and fear the male instructors will just get off on showing them how weak they are. Some women (older/elderly ones) ARE physically incapable. Overcoming fears to train with men is certainly better than rape, but overcoming fear is easier said than done. An ad campaign might really do wonders. Jiu-jitsu training coupled with counseling might really be a bullet in the arsenal.

I escaped sexual assault three times. Each time, the situation was utterly specific and the escape was specific as well.

The first time I was a drunk teenager pulled into a nazi skinhead's car. The passenger door was inoperable and I couldn't jump out. He knew I was drunk and I pretended that I was going to throw up, so he opened his door and let me out and I was able to run away. Some people happened to walk by as well. This also gave him incentive to let me go.

The second time I was grabbed by three men at work and about ten or fifteen more were hovering around hoping to "get some" when they were done. Unless I was a martial arts expert, trying to fight off a large gang would've been absurd. I stayed very rational and polite (even as they were violating me) and tried to get them to see me as human. It didn't work well. As I was about to be full-on raped, I started making monkey noises. The three men began to laugh (I had noticed they were high) and it took them out of the 'rape mood' I suppose. The ringleader then escorted me through the crowd, walked me to my car, flirted with me. I gave him a fake number (this was before cell phones) and I let him give me his number. He let me go. Fighting would not have worked in this situation.

The third time I was at a 5 star hotel for a business conference--I was one of two females present. A guest of the conference, dragged me down the corridor to his room. I fought the entire way. He was very drunk or high (or whatever) and his intoxication made him more able to withstand my attacks. I burned him with a cigar and he liked it. I could not "make myself pee". I tried to 'collapse his throat' but it didn't work. And I could not poke out his eyes. That's something you tell yourself you'll do, but when it comes down to it, it is incredibly difficult. Natural human empathy kicks in. For those of you who look away during a gore movie when someone's eyes are gouged out, what makes you think that you'll be able to stick your own thumbs into an attackers warm, wet eyeballs? I ended up fighting with this guy for about, oh, fifteen minutes. I was crawling down the hallway and he was hanging onto my legs. When I finally made it to the atrium, he let me go because other people were present.

Not only is it difficult to know what you're capable of during an attack, you can't even know what the right course of action will be. It's highly dependent. And certain cases, there isn't much a woman can do at all. If you think that you won't be raped because you 'got a temper on ya' or 'cuz you'll go bat shit ballistic' you're kidding yourself.


Let's be clear: men who rape are responsible for rape. Period. Silly advice like 'ball-kicking', 'eye-poking', and 'windpipe collapsing' can do more harm than good if you really think they're your ticket to survival. And if you think that women who are attacked simply didn't bother to do these simple things, then you're trivializing the real and complex histories of many many survivors. Most women I know are trying to raise kids, work two jobs, go to school, caretake friends and family. The majority of women will not or simply cannot commit to serious martial arts training. However, if such training is within your reach, it's a worthwhile tool. I'm about to begin such training myself. However, I know that even martial arts training will not guarantee my survival if I am ever attacked again.

Welcome to DU.

[I work for workers]

55. Thanks for sharing that. The same goes for everyone here.

Thanks for the welcome too!:)

[EFerrari]

52. By the time your attacker mounts you, it's too late.

What you are suggesting is not useful in protecting women from rape.

Geezus.

Women need to be alert and active many more moves ahead of that.

[ourbluenation]

56. no no no - not true. there are some techniques where you can toss someone off you.

absolutely. sexual assault self defense classes are different than juitsu or whatever the op was talking about. i do believe however, that people should take refresher courses and practice with a partner. but yeah, if you know the moves you can get a big guy off you.

if weapons are present there are even a few things one could try in those situations as well. but you really have to practice this stuff enough so it becomes second nature.

[EFerrari]

59. I agree that weapons are a whole different situation. n/t

/oops

[I work for workers]

60. If you know what you are doing, with any luck that mounted attacker will end up with a broken arm.

It's surprisingly easy to seriously hurt someone who doesn't know how to grapple if you do.

I'm by no means advocating that women should try to replace awareness with wrestling. The first thing anyone should do is stay smart and avoid bad situations. If they get into them, they should try to get the hell away as soon as possible.

This thread is more about addressing the situations where someone wasn't smart, or are being victimized even if they were. If all else fails, and someone is actually being raped, I find far too many women don't seem to have much of an idea what to do outside of some sort of vague notion of magic kicks to the groin.

Consider this: the vast majority of rapes are acquaintance rapes. The victim might not even realize her attackers intentions until she is already held down. Even worse, she might not want to try to seriously maim someone who she likes, and just resign to take it. Someone who knows how to control herself on the ground (or bed, couch or car) will have a much easier time getting free or controlling their attacker then someone who doesn't.

[EFerrari]

62. I'm sorry. This is the wrong point at which to start teaching.

You teach proxemics and releases BEFORE a woman is flat.

[uppityperson]

68. Of course teach how to avoid the situation (my case, run away screaming)

But I see nothing wrong with teaching other stuff like this also. And of course there is no 1 right thing to do all the time. Each instance, situation, is different. Different people places times weapons inebriation etc etc etc.

[readmoreoften]

81. No one is ever raped because they "weren't smart"

this meme just serves to blame women for their own assaults. Women are assaulted in their own homes, at work, and by friends. One of my neighbors was abducted walking 100 feet to her car. On the other hand, I know women who are drunk every night of the week and hang out at bars and they've never been attacked. Street prostitutes, women with broken down cars on the highway, and so forth are not "stupid" or "reckless" they're often just plain old poor.

The biggest factor in rape is proximity to rapists. The second is whether the rapist thinks he can get away with it either because no one is looking or because you are judged to be a person with no social value.

[AX10]

66. Could Judo work as well too?

[I work for workers]

69. Yeah, Judo is actually a good substitute, and easier to find.

BJJ and Judo share a common origin, and are very similar. The former focuses on the ground more, and the latter more on take downs and throws. I'd recommend either if you are interested.

[Prophet 451]

83. I think you phrase this badly

I agree with some of what you say. I taught self-defence myself to college girls. Totally unofficial, started out with my flatmate, then a friend of hers and so on, being taught every dirty trick I know from a lifetime of street fights and martial arts training. Over the years, I must have taught dozens of women, some of whom took it further (one of whom is now an MMA instructor and I am proud to say, can kick my ass).

But I think the way you have phrased this can be read as blaming the victim. I know that was probably unintentional but there it is.


And everyone else: Yes, men should stop raping. No-one's arguing with that but reducing the number of rapists takes time and we would rather that women weren't vulnerable during that time. I'm categorically NOT saying women who get raped aren't smart. It has nothing to do with teh victim. Nor are most of us criticising any woman who can't or won't fight. All we are trying to do is give those who will fight the tools to do it effectively. Hopefully, none of my girls will ever need it but if they do, it'll be there.

[undeterred]

85. Not every rapist is willing to fight a woman to rape her.

Years ago someone walked up to me face to face with a ten inch hunting knife and told me what he planned to do to me. After backing up a couple of steps I stopped in my tracks and screamed. Then I averted my gaze and saw that two young men were running towards us. My potential rapist turned and saw them coming and he took off running. He never laid a hand on me. These male college students got a great description of him and his car and called the police so I could report it.

Months later he was caught and I was asked to testify against him. It turned out that there were a total of 5 women testifying in 2 assaults. Only 1 young woman was actually raped- she was only 16 and she basically cooperated with him because she was afraid he would kill her. She did not scream or fight. We all testified in the that trial and he was convicted.

The other trial was a college woman who did struggle with him and was cut by the knife but she escaped him. So he was sentenced for attempted rape and assault with a deadly weapon.

As rapists go, this guy was not particularly aggressive. Three of us got away just by screaming loudly as soon as we knew we were in trouble.

The sooner you react to a situation, the more likely you are to get out of it. Your voice is a great weapon.

[Riktor]

112. That's not always the case

I'd have to disagree with your advice almost entirely.

There's no model of predicting how a sadistic or serial rapist will react if faced with a resistant victim. Studies show most serial rapists are willing to use force, and that at least 25% of these rapists increase the level of violence used each time they commit a rape. With that said, resisting can almost certainly get you killed.

Furthermore, serial rapists are extremely diverse in their modus operandi. Some are "blitz rapists", who attack without giving their victims a chance to react, while some are sociopathic, using their charm to lure their victims into isolated, defenseless positions.

In my humble opinion, these are the best options you have in defending yourself against rape:

1. Know who your male friends are. While the hooded, knife-wielding rapist who jumps from the bushes as you go jogging at two in the morning is the prototypical rapist in the public mind, you are far more likely to be raped by somebody you know personally.

2. Don't get drunk at parties. Sorry to kill the buzz, but again, your chances of being raped while passed out drunk by a guy you know are far greater than your chances of being raped by a complete stranger while you have you wits about you.

3. Don't walk around alone at night. Serial rapists force themselves on women to feel empowered, and will almost always choose targets they feel to be weak; rape victims are almost always older than their victimizers. There's something to be said for strength in numbers.

4. Use common sense. Many of the lessons we were taught to avoid being kidnapped as children also apply to avoiding rape. Don't take rides, food, or drink from strangers. Never travel alone. So on, so forth. Remember, rapists are looking for vulnerability, so avoid sticking out like a sore thumb.

[riverdeep]

87. Very useful info, IMO.

Apparently, this topic is so heated that unless a response is crafted just so, you are sure to be on the side of rapists. Regardless of the risk, I'll thank you for pointing out something critical. As far as I can tell, you're merely saying that self-defense classes may actually be harmful in some cases, by giving out a false sense of security. Carrying a whistle, pepper spray, and learning how to stomp on someone's foot is sometimes taught as being all you need. NO actual
applications of these techniques are worked on with an actual spar session. Until that happens, you have little idea of how effective it can be, or how you will respond.

Of course the problem is that men rape, and yes it's tragic that women have to think about this. And yes, there are situations in which there is little that can be done. Pointing out things that might work is not a knock on those who didn't struggle, the blame lies completely with the rapist and no one is looking at you like you were stupid, or in any other kind of judgement. Only concern and healing thoughts are directed at them. Having said the obvious, the real world indicates that rape won't be ending anytime soon, and if some of these strategies increase the odds, then it's tragic NOT to put it out there.

A typical women encountering a potential rape situation is at several disadvantages. This needs to be dealt with head on, not glossed over in a whirlwind of 'girl power', nor resigned to a state of constant apprehension that you are at the mercy of any roving male. First, the physical-women are generally smaller and less strong than men. Their strikes, if they choose to strike, are going to be less powerful than his. If he gets on top of you, you might not have the strength to get him off of you. Next, experience-almost every boy as he passes through childhood will get into at least one fight, and usually several. Girls, on the other hand, may go through their entire childhood without harsh physical contact. Men tend to have a better idea of where their physical limits are because they work closer to them. Many women don't know anything about how hard they can strike, how fast they can run, how much they can move, etc. The worst time to learn this info is when you have to. In addition, the rapist is further ahead on the learning curve in that he's probably done this before, and knows what resistance to expect. Mentally-women are taught to 'be nice' and think of other people's feelings. Anger, in particular, is viewed as justifiable and surprisingly often favorably when the source is male, and almost universally unfavorably when it's female. To go from this training, to fighting for your life on a dime, is a difficult state to break out of, and usually results in the woman experiencing a 'frozen state'.

As I said, these are real factors that must be dealt with to maximize your odds. Maximize is the key word here. It's all you can do. Not even trained police officers can guarantee the outcome is going to come out favorably, so how could anyone else? Physical-work out with weights. You're not going to look like Arnold, you're going to increase the strength you have available to you, but more than that, you will have a more realistic idea of your limits. Stick with compound joint exercises like squats, deadlifts, and bench. Here's an excellent site for men or women, but geared especially to women.

http://www.stumptuous.com/cms/index.php

Run, or bike to increase aerobic function. Eat well, don't smoke. Maximize what you are physically, and you will get to know your body, instead of it being some mystery. Get a weapon-no better equalizer-and learn how to use it. Buy a knife, and keep it holstered in the small of your back or hip. Buy a gun and keep it loaded and available the same way, within easy reach. The hardest part for some, may be the willingness to use it should the time come. Experience-getting yourself involved in any physical activity will help, but even more directly related are good self defense arts. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, mentioned in the OP, is good. Krav Maga is also very good. It stresses practical and realistic self defense from day one. You won't take years to learn how to defend yourself. Most important, spar full contact with a resisting male. You can start off with a strong woman, to get yourself comfortable, but at some point you must spar with a strong male. Both the mental and physical challenges are needed to make realistic progress. There is no substitute. Krav Maga also teaches how to handle multiple opponents, although let's be honest, your odds go way down here. Mentally-hopefully, the first two items will change your perspective considerably, but getting comfortable with being savage, when needed, is the point. Every one has a right to defend themself, there is nothing you shouldn't do when your life is on the line. It's all fair game. Nature put aggression into all of us, men and women, for times like these. Also part of the mental aspect, is being aware of when situations may get out of hand, and who is less trustworthy. Very hard to impossible to do, sometimes. Some men give no signals, once they get you in a location they can control, that's when they turn. Here's when your other options may be useful. But most of the time, if you listen to your spidey-sense tingling, it's probably right.

Obviously, not all women are going to be able to make use of all these ideas. The more you can, the better. But even an elderly woman can hold a gun. Also to reiterate, this can only be part of the story. Discouraging misogyny, in spite of the uphill nature, training boys and young men to respect themselves, each other, and girls and women, and dealing harshly with those who choose to rape is the larger story. (Release non-violent drug offenders, occupying some 75% of prison space, and make room for those that should be there). But what do women, and the men and other women who care about them, do in the meantime?

[RamboLiberal]

101. Good post riverdeep - I agree with all you said n/t

[pitohui]

90. did you know that most women have real lives, real children to raise, and real jobs?

there is no "several hours a week" to throw away on learning to cripple and kill bad guys

one of my relatives was gang raped in a home invasion, no amount of martial arts will make any difference when young men -- decades younger -- break into your home carrying guns and the desire to hurt you

this stuff about women learning martial arts and kicking guys in the nuts is nothing to do with defending me from rape and everything to do with a man's S/M fantasy life -- frankly i'm disgusted that you are unaware in 2007 that most women have to WORK and don't have precious hours out of their lives to hand over to their fear of rape

i try to sell girls on this aspect of training says it all -- who profits from selling fear and junk martial arts that make no difference in the real world against real weapons? you do, for one

[I work for workers]

95. Please tell me that post was a bad joke.

My fantasy life is no concern of yours, but I'll tell you this: I am absolutely disgusted by "fantasies" that involve violence against women.

Let's be realistic. The vast majority of women will never be raped. The vast majority of those who will be will be attacked by a single, unarmed assailant whom she is familiar with. I'm not trying to downplay the tragedy of the unfortunate few who will be gang raped, or raped by a knife wielding attacker, I just want to make clear what the most likely scenario is; acquaintance rape.

In that situation, a women is best served by knowing how to protect herself. It's entirely possible that she willingly put herself into a compromised and vulnerable position, had a partner turn into an attacker, and now needs to defend herself. The best way to ensure she can: having trained herself regularly for such a situation.

Not everyone has the time, money or inclination to truly prepare themselves. That shouldn't effect the decision of the women who do.

I agree with you on one thing. There are PLENTY of junk martial arts and instructors looking to make a quick buck off of someones fear. I'm not one of them. I'm not trying to sell anything. I don't work in martial arts, I work in politics. I'm just trying to make a point, and one that seems lost on you: women who want to be prepared need to put the effort into making sure they actually are.

How can you tell? Personally, my advice would be this; if you are not sweating, not really learning to control a bigger man using all his strength against you, and are not getting into better shape, you are being taken for a ride.

[pitohui]

98. your fantasy life is obvious to all

if you wanted to keep it private don't post on the internet about how you are trying to sell bogus b.s. to young girls (those were your words, "selling" "girls")

if you think stranger rape is rare and the threat is acquaintance rape, then i'm not clear on how selling this product -- and that's YOUR word "selling" -- will do anything except get the woman put in jail or sued or both

i've seen studies suggesting that a high proportion of women jailed for violent crimes are, in fact, in jail for defending themselves -- and usually because it's against the husband, b/f, co-worker, boss, etc.

we have a structural problem, and your suggestion ruins the woman's life as effectively as not bothering to waste hours a week on "training" would, except that even if she isn't a victim, you've still taken her money and her time that she could have spent on something that really interested her

so your idea is a "lose lose"

you have something to sell and i understand that you're going to sell it but understand also that you're going to get called on the lies because what you're selling is fear

my relative being raped in a home invasion isn't a joke to me but clearly it's a joke to you and you should be ashamed, but you won't be -- there's a dollar bill to be made :eyes:

[RamboLiberal]

102. Your post is lose lose

There are plenty of martial arts instructors who have given courses to women for a very small investment or even free. And there have been martial artists who have gone to great expense to buy the equipment necessary to train women. You ever heard of model mugging? You think it cheap to buy the foam armor to outfit "the attacker" from head to foot so the students can go full force and not harm him? There are men and women instructors who volunteer their time unpaid to teach self-defense.

So what's the big difference between paying for an aerobics class or a gym membership and paying for a good self-defense course that may just save your life?

There are gun clubs who give course to women for a small charge. And I've known police officers who have either gun or self-defense courses for women for a small or no fee. In fact when I first started out with firearms there was a very expirienced U.S. Marshal and excellent firearms instructor who spent several hours on several weekends teaching a group of women on self-defense with a handgun.

"I Work for Workers" and "riverdeep" have made very valid points here. None of us are making jokes. And I don't think any of us are ripping off women for their hard-earned dollars.

[I work for workers]

110. Why do you seem so opposed to women doing something to protect and empower themselves?

Seriously, one would almost thing I was advocating equal suffrage 100 years ago. Women can't train because they have to work and care for the kids? Those were your words. What utter BS.

Now they can't train because fighting a rapist might get them in legal trouble? I guess if they can't get the lawyer on the phone, it's just better to submit to a sick bastard's desire and violence. Are you Mitt Romney's debate coach by any chance?

Women are just as capable as men at learning to defend themselves. That is a FACT.

[RamboLiberal]

100. Excuse me - When I go to the gym the place is full of women

As I mentioned in a previous post I see tons of women, single, married, with kids, etc. in those gyms sweating their buns off in aerobics, kickboxing classes, etc. Or working on the treadmills, stairsteppers, and other exercise machines, etc. Good for them.

But if they have the time/money for that - then get into a good MA for at least a year or two. They will find they get as high intensity workout as any of the above activties if not better and they can learn to defend themselves.

Again your relative was one case - I think any Martial artist knows their training will not cover every aspect but it will cover a lot of situations.

And there are some home invasions who have been averted when the home owner has a arsenal in the home and the knowledge to use it effectively. I can't judge your relatives case.

[davsand]

92. I think women benefit by deciding in advance how they would respond.

I honestly think that self defense classes (while they are not perfect) do serve a purpose because they help women decide in advance how they are able (or even willing) to respond to attack. I have seen women get freaked out about even making a fist, and that made me realize just how out of touch some of us are with our own bodies and what we can do.

I don't "blame" those women at all, I just think that as females we are not ever taught how to fight. Some women maybe (if they are lucky) go a lifetime without needing to know what we were never taught. Others are not so lucky. It isn't as much a matter of needing to be a master of martial arts as much as needing to realize we CAN fight and do so effectively.

I also think there is a social pressure on women not to be too physical (read as proficient in combat.) I used to go to TKD and Karate classes on a regular basis, and I will admit freely to being just a bit uneasy about telling a new man in my life that I was busy that night because I was off to dojo. Most of the time the response was, "Ummm, OK," but a few times it was something negative, and those men were out of my life at that point in time.

I hold no illusions about my ability to overcome someone with a gun, nor do I think I am able to withstand attack by a group. (Frankly, if I am in that situation, I will do what I have to at the time and I don't think anyone can predict how something like that would play out.) What I do think, however, is that prevention is a part of the mindset women need too, and that is also something that a good personal defense class can help with.

Yes, we need to teach our boys not to rape, and yes we need to remove the attitude that we somehow ask for this shit to happen. Attack isn't our fault, it isn't something we should be blamed for, but it is a fact of our lives and we owe it to ourselves to at least prepare for the possibility. We also owe it to our daughters to teach them HOW to fight just in case.


Only my two cents and probably worth less than that.


Laura

[RamboLiberal]

104. That women can now even decide to take Martial Arts is great

There was a time in the United States where no school would even allow a woman. The time of women's rights roughly parallel the time some brave women who wanted to train fought their way to be allowed to train in the schools with the men or in a couple of cases formed their own training groups. In the 70's and even in to the 80's there was hostility and derision from many of the men. You can still find patches of it today, especially among those who do not train. At least for the most part within MA gyms they are supported though I do worry if this may turn as we seem to be turning to the very good for self-defense but becoming very competition oriented Mixed Martial Arts.

For many of the women who trained in the early days it was a real fight to gain respect. These women worked very hard to become very good martial artists and fighters. I would've put many of them I saw fight or I fought up against a lot of guys and the women would've won. I saw them train against male counterparts with some very hard fighting and more than hold their own.

And we can now weight train though I think there is certainly a societal frowning on a woman who develops strong prominient muscles. Look at the movement to the anorexic look of actresses and models. Personally I love to see a woman have muscle definition.

Yeah I'd rather be the woman warrior and in a way I have been my entire life. I'm glad I have personally broken some barriers to women and that so many of my brave sisters have gone before and after me in breaking many more.

So you will never get me to agree that martial arts and gun and other weapon training is a crock, a lie or a false hope for women or that we just don't have the time for it.

[JustAnotherGen]

94. I responded

To the OP on the other thread. I had the 'fight' instinct and got myself out of a bad situation.

But I also had a father who gave me two gifts: The gift of fear, and the gift of self-defense. I had not taken a 'self-defense' class . . . but he was in the Army, Special Forces in the 60's and 70's. Around the time I was 15 or 16, he showed me some things . . . and not almost 20 years later, he'll ask on occasion, "What do you do when . . . "

Every woman - in my dream world - would know a blow to the bridge of the nose could potentially kill your attacker. This is the first stun. Do it again. Go for a good stun with one arm free and flailing - you can stun him and bring tears to his eyes. Now he's weakened and may let you go or loosen his grip. Do it again very quickly. Now you can shove your elbow in his solar plexus. If you can't - then go for the instep. If his hands are at his nose with all of your strength go for his solar plexus or groin. The go. And if he has a gun - run. He'll probably use it anyways so just go.

The point is yes - you can make him angry. But if you feel the 'fight' instinct immediately - a small series of 'stuns' could get you to a place where you can GO. The guy who had attacked me had been doing this crap for three years before it came down to his word versus my word of why I broke his nose. I won. Cathy College, everyone's favorite R.A., miss sweet and innocent won. He never counted on my fighting back. None of them do.

But no woman should ever feel bad about keeping her life or made to feel bad for the way she does it.

[shireen]

96. good post, thanks.

This has been a thought-provoking thread, and interesting to hear so many diverse comments. It's horrible that we have to think ahead about the possibility of such attacks. WHen I'm walking alone at night and don't see anyone around, I walk with energetic purposeful strides to look confident. One hand is in my pocket, clutching a small sharp pocket knife -- just a little surprise for anyone who tries to attack me.

[RamboLiberal]

105. Good for you and good for your father's lessons!

[RamboLiberal]

109. Some websites of interest to the discussion

National Women's Martial Arts Federation - this was founded by women who fought in the early days for their rights to train in the martial arts: http://www.nwmaf.org/mc/page.do

Aware: http://www.aware.org/

Many women's self-defense classes are now modeled on the original - Model Mugging: http://www.modelmugging.org/

Can't vouch for this one but sounds interesting and affordable. RAD Rape Aggression Defense - fight like a Girl http://www.rad-systems.com/

The woman who advocated women learn to defend oneself with a gun - Paxton Quigley: http://www.paxtonquigley.com/

Oh and in another post I mentioned there was a time women weren't welcome in Martial Arts studios here in the U.S. - well being from Pittsburgh I remember the story of this brave woman sensei.

Bobbi started her martial arts training in the 1960's when she was in her early thirties. As a single mother of three children, she felt the need for a physical outlet.

Bobbi Snyder wanted to train in karate in Pittsburgh, PA. She had heard of a school and planned to check out their classes. I must remind you that even locating a martial arts school in the 1960's was quite a feat. Schools didn't advertise in the yellow pages - it was unusual to have a martial arts school anywhere. Bobbi went up the stairs to the door of the school to find a sign on it that stated:

NO SMOKING

NO DRINKING

NO WOMEN

Bobbi knocked REALLY LOUD on that door!

Her tournament career is legendary for the time - tournaments didn't often even have "women divisions" or women be allowed to enter tournaments. Between 1969, when she received her 1st Degree Black Belt from Master Robert Trias, USKA, and 1990, Bobbi officiated at over 50 tournaments.



http://www.nwmaf.org/mc/page.do?sitePageId=59320


Bobbi Synder was one of the first women to enter the very closed-to-women-doors of martial arts school. Wether you ever met Bobbi or not, we all have entered that door on her tailcoat.

[dropkickpa]

111. I fought back

And was able to get away with little more than bruises. Thank goodness I grew up with 5 brothers and that our knock-down-drag-out fights were legendary. A lot of the stuff that worked on my brothers worked on my attacker. He was never caught because I never got a good look at him (dark alley). I head butted him several times (giving myself a bloody nose and 2 black eyes in the process) screamed, clawed, bit, kicked, kneed, punched, and was eventually able to get out from under him by rolling over on top of him and scrambling away like I used to do with my brothers (this guy was MUCH bigger than me, I am 5' tall and at the time weighed maybe 125, he was at LEAST 50lb heavier and much taller). He wasn't armed, not sure if any of that would have worked if he had been, but I would have reacted the same. Two broken bones in my hand, a sprained ankle, the aforementioned bloody nose/black eyes, and some bruises on my torso from him hitting me were what I got away with.

I've often thought about taking a grappling MA course, but have never gotten around to it. A good friend is a muay thai master, and that stuff is brutal, but he moved and I don't like the guy who took over his gym (but I like his wife and she tells me they have a LOT of girls doing muay thai or mma). But many of the things I did that helped me get away are in such courses. I don't ever think it's a bad thing for girls or women to learn to fight (not just defend themselves).

[Libby2]

114. Another great DU post.

Thank you all for sharing your stories, ideas and suggestions.