Could someone clarify something?

[taterguy]

Is it progressive to applaud rising gas prices because that will inspire folks to seek out alternatives to driving which is bad for the planet in so many ways?

Or, is it progressive to bemoan rising gas prices because that inflicts genuine hardship on folks who can least afford it?

Help me out here

:shrug:

[Occam Bandage]

1. Both your poll choices are correct.

Rising gas prices will bring about much-needed change. However, the impetus for that change will be human suffering. The question one asks is which outweighs which.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Depends on the reason.

If the reason is higher tax to increase public transportation, environmental efforts...

than yes, I'd call that progressive.

[rucky]

3. Safety nets are progressive.

Price-gouging isn't.

There are better ways to conserve and seek alternatives.

[mike_c]

4. we really must get away from a petroleum economy, no matter what the reason....

eom

[phantom power]

5. I suppose the "progressive" thing would be to reduce our dependence on gasoline.

[taterguy]

6. Obviously, but how do we go about doing that?

Some of my suggestions here have gone over like a lead balloon.

[wuushew]

8. Higher CAFE standards

The Congress apparently is making progress on a new energy bill.

[taterguy]

11. LOL

Oh wait, you may have been serious about expecting Congress to do something.

Sorry.

[wuushew]

14. New US energy bill meets green lobby approval

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2221774,00.html

[phantom power]

12. I'm not sure. We may very well be in checkmate.

I think that adoption of buses, rail transport, and maybe most especially bicycles, are some achievable ideas. However, the bigger picture is that we are in big, big trouble. The kind of trouble that doesn't always have a happy ending:

Peak Oil, Climate Chaos and the World Problematique

[MedleyMisty]

7. There should be a "both" option.

But even then, I don't like the "is it progressive" stuff. What does "progressive" mean to you and why do you care what other people think about it?

I would think of it in terms of suffering caused. Like yeah, high gas prices will cause suffering in the short term and we should care about that and try to help out people, but in the bigger picture it is a good thing and we do need to stop using gas. If we don't clean up our act, there will be suffering far beyond high gas prices.

[taterguy]

13. That would kind of defeat the purpose of the thread

I wanted to see how people felt, with a simple either / or option.

[sam sarrha]

17. that isn't how this world works, it is all shades of grey.. so your info is worth less

that is why the republicans always Fuch up EVERYTHING they do...

[taterguy]

26. Even with shades of grey sometimes you have to make a choice

And that's why I posted two choices for the poll.

One more thing: When accusing others of being inept it helps if you spell the word fuck correctly.

Just sayin' :)

[HeraldSquare212]

9. Regressive nature of price increases...and of climate change impact

I understand that higher prices hurt the less-well-off more, but weather events caused by climate changes will do so also, and with much greater impact.

[monmouth]

10. Or, take the bus...n/t

[taterguy]

16. You live in a place where busses are powered by something other than oil?

Where the hell is that?

And more importantly, how many places in the US has bus schedules that are truly convenient for the majority of potential users?

[NC_Nurse]

18. Chapel Hill!

We have FREE buses that are easy to take around....

Wouldn't it be great if more towns did this? :-)

[taterguy]

20. I meant cities where people actually work for a living

Chapel Hill is just a soft college town.

No one there has a real job.

:sarcasm: (Especially if you really are a nurse which is one of the most noble and demanding professions around)

Thoughts about transportation in Chapel Hill will be posted when I've had more coffee.

[NC_Nurse]

21. We have one of them LIBERAL govts too.

A rarity in this state. :)

Proves we couldn't be REAL hardworking citizens. :sarcasm:


;)

[taterguy]

25. Buses work in Chapel Hill because that city can afford to be inconvenient for motorists

Let's face it, a lot of it comes down to parking places, or lack thereof.

Most cities have abundant parking because employers demand convenient parking places for their employees and customers. They coerce local governments into building parking lots and parking decks. If they don't get what they want they threaten to relocate.

Chapel Hill is dominated by a University and it's not going anywhere.

So in a "normal" city there's not much incentive to use a bus. It's generally more convenient to just hop in your car and go to your destination.

Of course the fact that people in Chapel Hill manage just fine to get along without convenient parking makes me wonder why it can't be done elsewhere, or why people insist on driving everywhere, just because it saves them a little time and require less exertion.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

15. All the hybid cars in the woalrd aint gonna help

Stuff is shipped on semi's, trains, planes, and boats... Rising Gas is an inviable VAT..

[lvx35]

19. High gas prices mean profits for providers

Which, if normal market rules apply will go to them increasing output until prices decrease...Which would be fine, if it weren't for global warming.

Its a good question though, and I was thinking about it myself. Might investing in oil futures and driving prices up actually be a way to push the economy told alternative energy? If our oil providers were progressive enough to be "energy providers" it could be, but we're not there yet.

[zorahopkins]

22. Rising Gas Prices Will Make The Poor Poorer

All rising gas prices will do is make the poor people poorer.

And make the rich oil men richer.

[Cal Carpenter]

23. None of the above

First of all, "progressive" is one of those convenient words that can mean just about anything to anyone and therefore has no meaning at all, it certainly has no specific shared ideology.

But to move past that and answer your question, the problem with the rising gas prices is that the prices still do not reflect the real costs of getting gas to the consumer. They only reflect increasing and obscene corporate profits. There is nothing to "applaud" about that. The gov't is subsidizing these profits and the people (from the consumer to the owner-operator truck driver to the farmer to the orphaned Iraqi children) are getting screwed.

It would be fantastic if all it took to change our transportation infrastructure was individuals being inspired to make lifestyle changes and beginning to ride the bus or bike or carpool or buy a hybrid or whatever. But considering the amount of power that these oil companies have on a global scale that's not gonna happen. There aren't enough viable choices, and there aren't nearly enough people who can afford the flexibility to make these changes. And it isn't the little guys' fault for his choices either - this is a result of a systemic effort by corporations and governments to preserve the status quo. We can make choices in our own lives and lead by example but nothing significant will change until we strike at the root. And the root is the corporations and their unfettered access to governments.

[taterguy]

27. I think we'd see significant changes if the people that did have viable choices chose to use them

It's true that some people really need their cars. It's also true that a lot of times cars are used just because that's the norm and people are reluctant to do things differently.

I base that on what I see in the real world. I live in a neighborhood that pre-dates that dominance of automobile culture. There are neighborhoods like it all over the country. It's close to places to work and places to shop. People like it because it's convenient. They value their convenience so much that they'll take 10 minutes going to work in their car when it would only take them 15 minutes on a bike.

Suppose there was a concerted effort to discourage automobile usage? What could the all-powerful oil companies do about it? Obviously there won't be any media outlets promoting this since they rely on automobiles for ad revenue but it is something that we can talk about amongst ourselves, in forums like this.

Right?

[Lil Missy]

24. I'd have to say both, so I didn't vote.