I'll tell you when Chavez is officially a dictator

[mudesi]

When an independent and impartial body, such as the UN or something similar, declares that the election process in Venezuela is rigged, unfair, or otherwise fraudulent, that is when Hugo Chavez is a dictator.

Until then, he is the democratically elected president of Venezuela.

Frankly, I wonder how anyone can throw stones in this gigantic glass house that is the United States of America. A corporately owned media, a one party system of corporatists in both the Democratic and Republican parties, rigged electronic voting machines, gerrymandering of districts, and suppression and disenfranchisement of minority votes.

What would the UN say about that?

[LakeSamish706]

1. And as I understand it he allowed many outside agencies into the country...

to observe the elections to make certain that things were being done in a fair way.

[stillcool]

26. here's some stuff...

Observers from 39 Countries to Guarantee Clean Referendum Vote
November 30th 2007, by ABN

Caracas, 29 Nov. ABN.- The National Electoral Council (CNE) announced that observers from 39 countries will guarantee a clean voting process during the referendum for constitutional reform to be held this Sunday, December 2nd.
http://venezuelanalysis.com/newsbrief/2927

54% of Venezuelan ballot boxes will be opened to backup electronic results
December 2nd 2007, by Prensa Web RNV

More than half of the ballot boxes containing the physical votes of the Referendum Sunday December 2nd will be opened to verify the electoral process, announced Supplemental Rector of the National Electoral Council (CNE), Humberto Castillo, during a special broadcast on Venezolana de Televisión (VTV).

According to Castillo "what used to be a black box is now a transparent box since 54% of the ballot boxes will be open." He stated that the results will reflect the will of the people.

Nearly 100,000 witnesses of both tendencies will participate in the referendum observing the process, reported the Bolivarian News Agency (ABN).
Castillo indicated that the mechanisms of guarantee applied to this election are above international standards, and he expressed that the horseshoe shape of the polling station will facilitate voting: "We have increased the number of centers and the process will be rapid, efficient and will move along quickly.”

He warned that any accusation of fraud "will clash with reality and will go nowhere. It is political rhetoric and will have no support in the majority of the country."

3,000 national and international journalists accredited
A total of 3,000 national and international journalists were accredited by the National Electoral Council (CNE) to cover the constitutional reform referendum taking place Sunday, December 2nd according to CNE Rector Germán Yépez, who also mentioned the participation of national and international observers
http://venezuelanalysis.com/newsbrief/2948

[provis99]

2. commie lover.

:sarcasm: :D

[Junkdrawer]

3. s/b "COMUNIST LOVER"...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2387574&mesg_id=2389830

[SyntaxError]

65. Why must it be sarcastic?

Is it a crime to love a pinko? ;)

[marmar]

4. "I wonder how anyone can throw stones in this gigantic glass house that is the United States"

You've got me screaming in the "Amen" corner. ..... I think people need to be worried about the "As long as I'm the dictator" in their own backyard.

[BlueJazz]

7. I'll amen to that also!

:)

[Bicoastal]

13. So sick of this argument--OF COURSE WE CAN THROW STONES!

What, are you saying that only people who live under perfect, spotless, exemplary governments are allowed to criticize those of others? And which country's government would this be, anyway?

Now if you're talking about Bush's own criticism, that would be one thing--but don't tell me I can't criticize Chavez all because of a corrupt President/Veep I certainly didn't vote for.

[ooglymoogly]

18. It is laughable to call another countries elections "fraud" to accomplish an agenda

when your own elections are a laughing stock. Catch my drift?

[Bicoastal]

21. No, because I'm not in charge of running the elections of either country.

A faulty democracy doesn't blind me to the faults of others'.

But again, are you talking about us (DU posters who don't care for Chavez) or US (our country and the elected officials therein)?

[JerseygirlCT]

49. How about Putin's supposed "win" in Russia?

Shall we just say, "oh well" to that as well?

Rigged elections are rigged elections. Unfortunately, we've now become a bit more educated to them.

From what I've read, however, the Venuzuelan election was fair...

[99th_Monkey]

17. Amen brotha! Bush is no doubt GREEN with envy. He'd love to remove his term limits.

but that's kind of a challenge when nearly 80% of your voting public think Bush sucks.
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

[JerseygirlCT]

48. Of course we do - but I think

it's our current sensitivity to that process that has some of us worried when we watch some of Chavez's machinations.

In what appears to have been a fair and open election, they put a few brakes on. I think that's hopeful.

[PVnRT]

68. BZZZZZT Fail on logic

Argumentum ad hominem. Does this mean we can't criticize North Korea? Turkmenistan? Saudi Arabia? Sudan?

Plus, I dare you to find people here who helped rig elections in the U.S. or fervently support Bush.

[flyarm]

5. too bad there are so many in our own country that could care less about our own constitution

and make excuses when ours has been shit upon and destroyed and they defend people in both parties destroying our constitution!

I have more to worry about in my own country..the USA! starting with a citizenship that is idle in the wave of our own destruction.

fly

[cali]

6. Of course he's not a dictator, but you've presented a logical fallacy supreme

Whether or not a fairly elected leader is a dictator has to do with the actions they take, not whether they're legitimately elected. I thought everyone knew that. A legitimately elected leader could round up citizens and throw them in detention camps for dissent. He could shut down all independent media. He could do all kinds of heinous things and still be legitimately elected.

Sad you didn't know this.

[mudesi]

8. Is that happening?

None of those things are happening. And no, that kind of person you describe cannot be legitimately elected.

When they actually do happen, I'll call him a dictator.

[cali]

16. I'm not tallking about Chavez, I'm talking about your poor construct.

As I said, Chavez is not a dictator. Your post is ridiculous on its face. And you can't even admit that you're flat out wrong with your definition of what constitutes a dictator.

[mudesi]

19. I'm afraid you're wrong

You can't have a dictator and a fair and accurate election system. If that were the case then the people would vote said dictator out, which doesn't make him much of a dictator, now does it?

[cali]

22. Of course you can.

all it takes is a legitimate election, and then the leader can manipulate what he wants.

And once again, I am in no way suggesting Chavez is doing that. It's your faulty logic I'm pointing out.

[mudesi]

24. I'm talking about every election

Once a dictator has grabbed power after the first legitimate election, then I'll say he is a dictator. But if there exist legitimate elections while the "dictator" is in power, then by definition he is not a dictator.

[cali]

28. Another logical fallacy

It can be the first of fourth election. Whether someone is a dictator is dependent on the actions they take. That's the standard definition. Not whether they were elected legitimately once or 5 times.

[mudesi]

32. It's impossible for you to be right on this one

If the people have the power to vote him out, he cannot be a dictator, period.

[Name removed]

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[Cha]

64. Sow

chaos, huh? And, it just gets eaten up..rinse, cycle, repeat..

[Lerkfish]

69. I concur

by definition, he cannot be a dictator if he can be voted out.

1. a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.

ipso facto, if he can be voted out of office, he does not retain absolute, unrestricted control.

to imply otherwise would be incorrect.

[Marr]

27. A dictator is an absolute ruler.

Absolute rulers relinquish power only when they want to, not when a fair election orders them to. The OP's point is sound. Sad you didn't know this.

[cali]

30. lol

no. A dictator is defined by what actions they take, not by whether or not they're legitimately elected. It's very basic. Pathetic that you don't know something that basic.

[mudesi]

33. You're inventing that definition (nm)

[Marr]

34. Buy a dictionary.

A dictator holds absolute power. If Bush came out tomorrow and said we would have no more elections and he would be president for life with all powers housed in his office, he would be a dictator as of that moment. Whether he exercised those powers maliciously or not, he would be a dictator.

This isn't complex.

[Name removed]

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[Lerkfish]

70. definition of dictator

1. a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession.

I don't think the other person is being pathetic by correctly defining what a dictator is.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Bongo Prophet]

40. Hi, Flyarm. I read your post as dissing Bush, as was your intent. Crazy in here, huh?

But this post really made my day.
It seems emblematic of what I have seen much of lately.
Your old school humor aimed at Bush doesn't fit the freeforall dem gangwars of today.
Today we don't diss Bush, just each other! What a concept!
Not long ago we could add to a poster's idea and joke harmlessly - trouble is, right now there is no presuming innocence, and people think you are attacking when you clearly weren't.
Maybe we will get our board back after the primaries. :think:

Good to see you, FELLOW FIGHTING DEM AND ALLY!
I promise NEVER to call you Cupcake, LOL.

Try to forgive Cali, She has a very high energy level lately.
And she jumps into a group and, unlike most, will take on ANYBODY.
It's like an episode of Xena.

I confess, I can get like that when my blood sugar is gettting low...:)

Carry on!

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[malaise]

36. Most parliamentary governments including Britain

Australia, the Anglophone Caribbean have no term limits for Prime Ministers. What's the problem with that? Please explain. As long as you are elected and elections are fair, you cannot be a dictator. You can't redefine concepts to suit your own agenda.

What's going on today is a democratic exercise.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[cali]

25. Sorry you see my disagreeing with DU conventional wisdom

as condescenion. It's true I have no fondness for certain things: hyperbole, hypocrisy and logical fallacies, are high on that list.

And I don't much care for group think.

[here_is_to_hope]

42. And that makes it hard for you to

...be in a group.
We were discussing Chavez and in your post, semantics and snarked ruled the day.
We love you but...:hi:

[Name removed]

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[Marr]

55. Oh, you seem very fond of group think, from where I'm sitting.

Just not this particular group-- if you know what I mean.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[Odin2005]

15. Exactly, a country can be technically a democracy without being a liberal democracy.

But such "illiberal" democracies usually end up as dictatorships or one-party states.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

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[CGowen]

11. It's the OSCE and they said the 2004 election in the USA was mostly fair

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/americas/2004/vote_usa_2004/3987655.stm

The US elections "mostly met" standards for freedom and fairness, international observers have said.

Observers from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said the presidential and congressional elections reflected a "long democratic tradition".

They praised the "professionalism and dedication" of state and local officials.

The observers had received widespread allegations of fraud and voter suppression ahead of the elections but they were unable to substantiate the claims.





-------------------------

but Venezuela is not a member

[Fly by night]

29. Having a "mostly fair" election is like having a girlfriend who's a "little bit pregnant".

Either way, there's a good possibility that you are fucked.

In a tight race, you can have a "mostly fair" election and still have the wrong candidate declared the winner.

Just because millions of your sperm didn't impregnate your sweetie's egg doesn't mean that you're not a daddy-to-be.

[CGowen]

35. According to Greg Palast, Ohio and New Mexico were the holes in the condom

Congratulations, it's a Bush.

...
Any guesses as to whom those African-Americans chose for president on those junked ballots? Check Ohio's racial demographics, do the numbers, and there it is: Kerry won Ohio. And that, too, is a fact. A fact that could not get reported in the USA.

But the shoplifting of those votes in Ohio was just the tip of the theft-berg. November 2, 2004 was a national ballot-box bonfire. In total, over three million votes (3,600,380 to be exact) were cast -- marked, punched, pulled -- YET NEVER COUNTED. I'm not talking about the Ukraine or Uganda. I'm talking about the United States of America "with liberty and justice for all."

Well, not "all." The nine-to-one Black-to-White ballot spoilage rate is a national statistic -- not just an Ohio trick. Last year, I flew to New Mexico to investigate the 33,981 cast but not counted ballots of that state in the 2004 race. George Bush "won" New Mexico by 5,988 votes. Or did he? I calculated that, of all the ballots rejected and "spoiled," 89% were cast by voters of color. Who won New Mexico? Kerry won -- or he would have, if they had counted the ballots.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/06/06/con06219.html

[Fly by night]

45. I would add Nevada and Iowa to the list of "illegitimates" that Bush poled.

And there were at least a dozen other states where signficant electronic vote-flipping occurred to create a false mandate.

The only mandate that I'll ever believe Bush had was with Jeff Gannon.

[EFerrari]

46. Someone explain to me again why Richardson nixed a recount. n/t

[99th_Monkey]

31. Gee, I wonder why Venezuela is not a member. From the lips of John Paul ...

"Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) monitors to all aspects of the parliamentary elections, but that organization has time and time again, from Slovakia to Russia and elsewhere, shown itself to be unreliable and politically biased. Yet the United States continues to fund and participate in OSCE activities."
http://www.counterpunch.org/paulukraine.html

While I'm not a big fan of Ron Paul, I do think he's sincere about wanting fair elections here, in Ukraine, Venequela, etc. and I don't take his
criticism of OSCE lightly. If HE thinks OSCE is corrupted by US interests, then I'm not surprised that Chavez is no big fan of OSCE.

[CGowen]

38. I don't know much about them, but they are also geographically bound

The OSCE has 55 member states. These are drawn mainly from Europe, the Caucasus and Central Asia. The United States and Canada are members of the OSCE.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/3183718.stm

[Odin2005]

12. Can a tyranny of the majority led by a demagogue be called a true democracy?

AFAIC a legitimate liberal democracy protects the rights of individuals from possible tyrannies of the majority and keeps a charismatic demagogue from dominating the government.

[99th_Monkey]

23. Oh, you are right. Chavez should just roll over for CIA & US corporate interests.

and let the poor be raped and brutalized by a US puppet government. what was I thinking?

:sarcasm:

[Odin2005]

41. Since when did I oppose Chavez's economic policies?

I totally support his economic policies, what I do not support is authoritarian heavy-handednes.

[99th_Monkey]

43. All one has to do is take a long hard look at what Chavez is up against

to understand why he his doing what he's doing. You are correct that in a perfect world -- where his opposition also supported democratic rule and
restrained themselves from dirty tricks and collaborating with foreign enemies of the fragile Venezuelan democracy -- his heavy handedness would be
reprehensible. However, such is not the case.

[TahitiNut]

37. Oh, my! That's EXACTLY the rhetoric used by the GOP to attack FDR. Exactly.

:shrug:

[killbotfactory]

56. That's funny, they tried to overthrow FDR as well

They love democracy sooooo much that they are willing to destroy it in order to save it.

[LittleClarkie]

44. So we should watch you then

as opposed to thinking for ourselves as to when we think he becomes a dictator?

I think what many are railing against is the potential.

[JerseygirlCT]

47. I don't understand

the idea that because our administration is f-ed up, we shouldn't ever complain about anyone else.

He's not a dictator, though this last attempt to become one was pretty transparent, I think. Fortunately, the Venuzuelans seemed to pretty strongly agree that they want to keep him in check. Smart for them.

He is the elected president, and will be that until his term ends. No reason that he should be allowed to change that, either, or aggregate more power to himself in the meantime.

[BuyingThyme]

52. He attempted to become a dictator?

[JerseygirlCT]

57. "President for life"????

That doesn't set off your warning bells?

[BuyingThyme]

58. Yes, the fact that you're quoting the CIA and attributing it to Chavez

sets off warning bells.

[JerseygirlCT]

60. Dupe nt

[JerseygirlCT]

61. From

SFgate.com

Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez appears to down but not yet out; in a major blow to his "Bolivarian" socialist revolution, his countrymen voted yesterday, in a nationwide referendum, to reject a long list of the controversial, populist leader's proposed changes in the law that would have allowed him to get rid of term limits on his rule (in effect, to be re-elected indefinitely), "given him control over foreign currency reserves and boosted his powers to expropriate private property."

From CBS:

Humbled by his first electoral defeat, President Hugo Chavez said Monday he may have been too ambitious in asking voters to let him stand indefinitely for re-election and endorse a huge leap to a socialist state.
...
Foes of the reform effort - including Roman Catholic leaders, press freedom groups, human rights groups and prominent business leaders - said it would have granted Chavez unchecked power and imperiled basic rights.

[EFerrari]

67. "President for life" was the official US government meme

that distorts the actual proposal of lift term limit (which would still have required re-election).

[mdmc]

59. Trolls call him a dictator

:kick: R

[mogster]

66. My comment: