What is it going to take to get it through their thick skulls...

[Joe Fields]

Military success does not equal success in Iraq.

Even if I believed we were making progress militarily, which I don't, I'm wise enough to know that you can win every battle, every conflict, quell every uprising, and still lose the war.

This isn't nearly so much about the military, as it is finding an equitable political solution. And as long as we stay there, we are part of the problem. I don't give a damn if John Murtha comes back from Iraq and tells everyone that he sees military progress there.

[Breeze54]

1. But 'only' 34 of our soldiers were killed this month!!!!

That's 'progress', :grr: according to them!!!

:nuke:

[Joe Fields]

3. And politicians like Murtha and McCain go to Iraq and get shuttled

around by convoys of soldiers, a ring of protection, taken to where the Army brass wants them to go, then they're fed a line of bullshit and go back to the states, trumpeting success. They see ONLY what the brass wants them to see.

[Breeze54]

8. Are you sure they're 'soldiers' and not Blackwater?

I know they get escorted but what else can we expect? It's not like Murtha is going to be walking around in Baghdad foot loose and fancy free! I mean, neither would I! Would you? Murtha is a Marine and even though he's old, I'll bet he still thinks he's tough but he's not carrying a weapon there either. We'll never get the whole truth! Not ever! Not from any of the civilians visiting a war zone, it's just not going to happen and I think it's foolish to expect it! I prefer to read the soldiers accounts. The guys doing the actual fighting and defending. They know the real score.

[Joe Fields]

11. I wasn't trying to imply that Murtha, or any other civilian take off in the

desert, like the rat patrol, to discover things on their own. I was only suggesting that these politicians are extremely well protected and shuttled only to safe spots. Maybe in their mind they think they are getting a clear picture of the situation. And here I sit at my keyboard and I haven't a clue, except for reports from real soldiers who have served there and can give first hand accounts, and not some account that a sgt tells his men to spew when a senator or congressman pops a question or two.

[Breeze54]

12. I didn't think you were implying anything..just giving you my take on it.

At least they do go there and try to find out what's 'really' going on... *sigh*

None of us will know all that happened for years, of that I'm sure. :(

[frogcycle]

7. yeah, tell that to these people

and their families

Nathan J. Schuldheiss, 27, of Newport R.I.
Balad (near Balad Air Base) - Salah ad Din 11/01/07
Hostile - hostile fire
The Department of Defense announced today the death of two airmen and a Department of the Air Force civilian who were deployed in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. They died Nov. 1 near Balad Air Base, Iraq, of wounds suffered from an improvised explosive device. All were assigned as special agents to the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Schuldheiss was assigned to Detachment 204, Offutt Air Force Base, Neb.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11454">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Staff Sgt. David A. Wieger, 28, of North Huntingdon, Pa.
Balad (near Balad Air Base) - Salah ad Din 11/01/07
Hostile - hostile fire
The Department of Defense announced today the death of two airmen and a Department of the Air Force civilian who were deployed in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. They died Nov. 1 near Balad Air Base, Iraq, of wounds suffered from an improvised explosive device. All were assigned as special agents to the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Wieger was assigned to Detachment 303, Travis Air Force Base, Calif.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/01/david--a-wieger/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Master Sgt. Thomas A. Crowell, 36, of Neosho, Mo.
Balad (near Balad Air Base) - Salah ad Din 11/01/07
Hostile - hostile fire
The Department of Defense announced today the death of two airmen and a Department of the Air Force civilian who were deployed in support of Operation Iraqi Freedom. They died Nov. 1 near Balad Air Base, Iraq, of wounds suffered from an improvised explosive device. All were assigned as special agents to the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. Crowell was assigned to Detachment 301, Scott Air Force Base, Ill.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/01/thomas--a-crowell/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


2nd Lt. Tracy Alger, 30, of New Auburn, Wi
11/01/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
A U.S.-led coalition soldier and an Afghan soldier were killed Friday in clashes with insurgents in southern Afghanistan, a coalition statement said.

Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Sgt.1st Class Johnny C. Walls, 41, of Bremerton, Wash.
Uruzgan province 11/02/07
Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire
Died of wounds suffered when insurgents attacked his unit using small arms fire during combat operations. He was assigned to the 1st Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, Fort Riley, Kan.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/02/johnny-c-walls/">Local News Link
Local News Link


Pfc. Dwane A. Covert Jr., 20, of Tonawanda, N.Y.
Salah ad Din Province 11/03/07
Non-hostile - explosion
Died from injuries suffered in a non-combat related incident. He was assigned to the 104th Transportation Company, 13th Corps Support Sustainment Battalion, 3rd Infantry Division, Fort Benning, Ga.

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15025&Itemid=21">Local News Link
Local News Link


Pfc. Adam J. Muller, 21, of Underhill, Vt.
Tal Al-Dahab - At-Ta'mim 11/05/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack


http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/05/adam-j-muller/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Sgt. Derek T. Stenroos, 24, of North Pole, Alaska
Tal Al-Dahab - At-Ta'mim 11/05/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack


http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/05/derek--t-stenroos/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Staff Sgt. John D. Linde, 30, of New York, N.Y.
Tal Al-Dahab - At-Ta'mim 11/05/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack


http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/05/john--d-linde/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Staff Sgt. Carletta S. Davis, 34, of Anchorage, Alaska.
Tal Al-Dahab - At-Ta'mim 11/05/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack


Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Petty Officer 2nd Class Kevin R. Bewley, 27, of Hector, Ark.
Salah Ad Din Province 11/05/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds suffered when an improvised explosive device detonated while he was conducting operations in Salah ad Din province, Iraq. Bewley was permanently assigned to Explosive Ordnance Disposal Mobile Unit 11, Oak Harbor, Wash.
http://dhimg.sv.publicus.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/05/kevin--r-bewley/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Sgt. Daniel J. Shaw, 23, of West Seneca, N.Y.
Taji - Baghdad 11/05/07
Non-hostile
Shaw was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 9th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, Fort Carson, Colo. For more information related to this release the media can contact the Fort Carson public affairs office at [phone].

http://icasualties.org/oif/prdDetails.aspx?hndRef=11-2007">Local News Link
Local News Link


Spc. Christine M. Ndururi, 21, of Dracut, Mass.
Camp Arifjan 11/06/07
Non-hostile
Died in Camp Arifjan, Kuwait, from a non-combat related illness. Her death is under investigation.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/06/christine--m-ndururi/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Sgt. Lui Tumanuvao, 29, of Fagaalu, American Samoa
Arab Jabour 11/07/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds suffered when he was struck by an improvised explosive device during combat operations. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 30th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, Fort Stewart, Ga.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/07/lui-tumanuvao/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Capt. Benjamin D. Tiffner, 31, of West Virginia
Baghdad 11/07/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds suffered when he was struck by an improvised explosive device. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 5th Special Forces Group (Airborne), Fort Campbell, Ky.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/07/benjamin--d-tiffner/">Local News Link
Local News Link


Capt. Matthew C. Ferrara, 24, of Torrance, Calif.,
Aranus 11/09/07
Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack
Died of wounds sustained when their patrol was attacked by direct fire from enemy forces in Aranus, Afghanistan, on Nov 9. They were assigned to 2nd Battalion, 503rd Airborne Infantry Regiment, 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team, Vicenza, Italy.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/09/matthew--c-ferrara/">Local News Link


Spc. Jermaine D. Franklin, 22, of Arlington, Texas
Jisr Naft, Diyala Province 11/09/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED, grenades
Died of wounds sustained from an improvised explosive device. He was assigned to the 1st Squadron, 32nd Cavalry Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), Fort Campbell, Ky.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/09/jermaine--d-franklin/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Sgt. Jeffery S. Mersman, 23, of Parker, Kan.,
Aranus 11/09/07
Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack
Died of wounds sustained when their patrol was attacked by direct fire from enemy forces in Aranus, Afghanistan, on Nov 9. They were assigned to 2nd Battalion, 503rd Airborne Infantry Regiment, 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team, Vicenza, Italy.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/10/jeffery--s-mersman/">Local News Link
Local News Link


Cpl. Sean K. A. Langevin, 23, of Walnut Creek, Calif.,
Aranus 11/09/07
Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack
Died of wounds sustained when their patrol was attacked by direct fire from enemy forces in Aranus, Afghanistan, on Nov 9. They were assigned to 2nd Battalion, 503rd Airborne Infantry Regiment, 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team, Vicenza, Italy.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/09/sean--k-langevin/">Local News Link
Local News Link


Cpl. Lester G. Roque, 23, of Torrance, Calif.
Aranus 11/09/07
Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack
Died of wounds sustained when their patrol was attacked by direct fire from enemy forces in Aranus, Afghanistan, on Nov 9. They were assigned to 2nd Battalion, 503rd Airborne Infantry Regiment, 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team, Vicenza, Italy.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/10/lester--g-roque/">Local News Link


Spc. Joseph M. Lancour, 21, of Swartz Creek, Mich.
Aranus 11/09/07
Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack
Died of wounds sustained when their patrol was attacked by direct fire from enemy forces in Aranus, Afghanistan, on Nov 9. They were assigned to 2nd Battalion, 503rd Airborne Infantry Regiment, 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team, Vicenza, Italy.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/10/joseph-m-lancour/">Local News Link
Local News Link


Sgt. Phillip A. Bocks, 28, of Troy, Mich.
Aranus, Afghanistan 11/10/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died while conducting combat operations in Aranus, Afghanistan. He was assigned to Marine Corps Mountain Warfare Training Center, Bridgeport, Calif.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/09/phillip--a-bocks/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Staff Sgt Patrick F. Kutschbach, 25
Tagab (Died in Bagram) 11/10/07
Hostile - hostile fire - RPG attack
1st Battalion, 10th Special Forces Group

Local News Link


Spc. Adrian E. Hike, 26, of Callender, Iowa
Bermel, Afghanistan 11/12/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds suffered when the vehicle they were in was struck by an improvised explosive device. They were assigned to 1st Squadron, 91st Cavalry Regiment, 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team, Schweinfurt, Germany.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/12/adrian--e-hike/">Local News Link


Sgt. Joseph M. Vanek, 22, of Elmhurst, Ill.,
Baghdad 11/12/07
Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire
Died of wounds suffered when enemy forces attacked his unit using small arms fire. He was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne Division, Fort Bragg, N.C.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/12/joseph--m-vanek/">Local News Link


Spc. Ashley Sietsema, 20, of Melrose Park, Ill.
Kuwait City, Kuwait, 11/12/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of injuries suffered in a vehicle accident. She was assigned to the 708th Medical Company, 108th Medical Battalion, 108th Sustainment Brigade, Illinois National Guard, North Riverside, Ill.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/12/ashley-sietsema/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Capt. David A. Boris, 30, of Pennsylvania.
Bermel, Afghanistan 11/12/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds suffered when the vehicle they were in was struck by an improvised explosive device. They were assigned to 1st Squadron, 91st Cavalry Regiment, 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team, Schweinfurt, Germany.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/12/david--a-boris/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Cpl. Peter W. Schmidt, 30, of Eureka, Calif.
Diyala Province 11/13/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds suffered when an improvised explosive device detonated during dismounted combat operations. They were assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment, 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, Fort Lewis, Wash.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/13/peter-w-schmidt/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


2nd Lt. Stuart F. Liles, 26, of Hot Springs, Ark.
Bagram, Afghanistan 11/13/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of injuries suffered in a non-combat related incident. He was assigned to the 122nd Aviation Support Battalion, 82nd Combat Aviation Brigade, 82nd Airborne Division, Fort Bragg, N.C. The incident is under investigation.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/13/stuart-f-liles/">Local News Link
Local News Link


Sgt. Christopher R. Kruse, 23, of Emporia, Kan.
Diyala Province 11/13/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds suffered when an improvised explosive device detonated during dismounted combat operations. They were assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment, 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, Fort Lewis, Wash.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/13/christopher--r-kruse/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Pfc. Casey P. Mason, 22, of Lake, Mich.
Mosul (near) - Ninawa 11/13/07
Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire
Died of wounds suffered when enemy forces attacked his unit using small arms fire. He was assigned to the 728th Military Police Battalion, 8th Military Police Brigade, 8th Theater Sustainment Command, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/13/casey--p-mason/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Sgt. Steven C. Ganczewski, 22, of Niagara Falls, N.Y.
Balad 11/14/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds suffered from a combat-related incident. The incident is under investigation. He was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment, Fort Benning, Ga.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/16/steven--c-ganczewski/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


2nd Lt. Peter H. Burks, 26, of Dallas, Texas
Baghdad 11/14/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds suffered when his vehicle struck an improvised explosive device. He was assigned to the 4th Squadron, 2nd Stryker Cavalry Regiment, Vilseck, Germany.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11503">Local News Link
Local News Link


Sgt. Kenneth R. Booker, 25, of Vevay, Ind.
Mukhisa, Diyala Province 11/14/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds sustained when an improvised explosive device detonated near his vehicle. He was assigned to the 2nd Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment, 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, Fort Lewis, Wash

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/14/kenneth--r-booker/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Spc. Derek R. Banks, 24, of Newport News, Va.
San Antonio, Texas - Baghdad 11/14/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds suffered Oct. 25 in Baghdad, Iraq, when the vehicle he was in struck an improvised explosive device. He was assigned to the 237th Engineer Company, 276th Engineer Battalion, 91st Troop Command, Virginia National Guard, West Point, Va.

Local News Link


Sgt. Mason L. Lewis, 26, of Gloucester, Va.
Baghdad 11/16/07
Non-hostile - accident
Died as a result of a non-combat related training accident. He was assigned to the 26th Brigade Support Battalion, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division, Fort Stewart, Ga.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/16/mason--l-lewis/">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Cpl. Christopher J. Nelson, 22, of Rochester, Wash.
Ba'qubah - Diyala 11/18/07
Hostile - hostile fire - suicide bomber
Died when an improvised explosive device detonated during a mounted patrol in Baquabah, Iraq. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 38th Infantry Regiment, 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, Fort Lewis, Wash.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11504">Local News Link
Local News Link


Cpl. Jason T. Lee, 26, of Fruitport, Mich.
Ba'qubah - Diyala 11/18/07
Hostile - hostile fire - suicide bomber
Died when an improvised explosive device detonated during a mounted patrol in Baquabah, Iraq. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 38th Infantry Regiment, 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, Fort Lewis, Wash.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11504">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Pfc. Marius L. Ferrero, 23, of Miami, Fla.
Ba'qubah - Diyala 11/18/07
Hostile - hostile fire - suicide bomber
Died when an improvised explosive device detonated during a mounted patrol in Baquabah, Iraq. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 38th Infantry Regiment, 4th Stryker Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division, Fort Lewis, Wash.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11504">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Staff Sgt. Alejandro Ayala, 26, of Riverside, Calif.
Not reported yet 11/19/07
Non-hostile - accident
Died of injuries sustained as a result of a vehicle accident in Kuwait. He was assigned to the 90th Logistics Readiness Squadron, F.E. Warren Air Force Base, Wyo.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/nov/18/alejandro-ayala/">Local News Link
Local News Link


Sgt. Alfred G. Paredez Jr., 32, of Las Vegas, Nev.
Baghdad (eastern part) 11/20/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died of wounds suffered when his vehicle struck an improvised explosive device. He was assigned to the 1st Battalion, 8th Cavalry Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 1st Cavalry Division, Fort Hood, Texas.

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15387&Itemid=128">Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Spc. Melvin L. Henley Jr., 26, of Jackson, Miss.
Baghdad 11/21/07
Non-hostile
Died of injuries suffered from non-combat related incident. He was assigned to the 603rd Aviation Support Battalion, 3rd Combat Aviation Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division, Fort Stewart, Ga.

Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Staff Sgt. Jonathon L. Martin, 33, of Bellevue, Ohio
Regensburg, Germany/Jisr Naft, Iraq 11/22/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Died in Regensburg, Germany, of wounds suffered on Nov. 9 in Jisr Naft, Iraq, when his vehicle encountered an improvised explosive device. He was assigned to the 1st Squadron, 32nd Cavalry Regiment, 1st Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

Local News Link
Local News Link
Local News Link


Spc. Benjamin J. Garrison, 25, of Houston, Texas.
Salah ad Din Province 11/27/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Two Multi-National Division – North Soldiers were killed as a result of injuries sustained from an explosion near their vehicle while conducting operations in Salah ad Din province, Nov. 27.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11521">Local News Link


Pvt. Isaac T. Cortes, 26, of Bronx, N.Y.
Salah ad Din Province 11/27/07
Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
Two Multi-National Division – North Soldiers were killed as a result of injuries sustained from an explosion near their vehicle while conducting operations in Salah ad Din province, Nov. 27.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11521">Local News Link


Pending Notification
Baghdad (western part) 11/28/07 - 1
Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire


http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15526&Itemid=21">Local News Link


Cpl. Allen C. Roberts, 21, of Arcola, Ill.
Al Asad - Anbar 11/28/07
Non-hostile - vehicle accident
Died from a vehicle accident near Al Asad, Iraq. He was assigned to Marine Attack Squadron 214, Marine Aircraft Group 13, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing, I Marine Expeditionary Force, Marine Corps Air Station Yuma, Ariz.

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=11524">Local News Link

[Breeze54]

10. My son was stopped lossed to Iraq for 18 months!!!

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

Don't even try to take me to task!!! :grr:

You don't have to 'remind' me or try to call me out!

I LIVED the fucking nightmare!!! :grr:

Did you miss the outrage in my post? :shrug:

[frogcycle]

14. you seem to have misunderstood me

I was agreeing with your sarcastic "only" 34

just adding faces to the point you made

I take it your son came back in one piece - congratulations on that

[Breeze54]

15. All is cool...I did take it the wrong way...

I thought that you thought I was off my trump.

Sorry.

He's back.

On edit:

It's still a sore subject for me. I'm sorry for getting angry but I just do when it comes to our soldiers and
what they go though and what their family's go through and it's just still a real hot button issue for me.

I apologize.

[Selatius]

2. Many people still think of war in terms of World War 2 standards.

Back then, military victory did mean winning the war. The thinking was if you wanted to win, you had to kill everybody who could possibly resist. If there is no one left to fight, you win. This naturally meant appalling death tolls, and by the time the war in Europe ended, upward of 50,000,000 in Europe had died. Today, that type of warfare is basically outlawed, and many people in the industrialized world would not tolerate the kind of mass killing seen in the last world war. They'd vote out the government that did that or even topple it by force.

Using that standard, you probably could have "won" in Viêtnam. You simply had to kill millions more until there was no one left to resist, but is losing your soul in the process of achieving victory really a victory at all?

[underpants]

4. Nothing

It was never winnable

Not me mind you but there is some fantastic input on this old thread

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/underpants/82

[Joe Fields]

6. True. I remember that report.

In my mind this was all by design. If we were thorough, then we would have no plausable reason to stay. And now Bush signs an agreement (treaty, although they cleverly do not call it that) to set up for a long term stay. This was their plan all along, I believe.

[JeffR]

5. Damn good job distilling this to its essence

The quality and depth of American political dialog has fallen on hard times. It's hard to find any honest discussion of what you've noted, not in the mainstream media, not in the halls of Congress, certainly not in our occupied White House. I can only assume conversations about this among the troops in Iraq are painfully honest and eloquent, quite a way up the chain of command.

Bring them home now.

[TwilightGardener]

9. Murtha sees military progress there because it's what's happening.

If you put our soldiers on every street, run checkpoints and curfews, limit auto traffic, erect barriers and walls, and pay our "enemies" to stop setting roadside bombs and rat out those that do, there's going to be a downturn in violence. That's not surprising or suspiciously "Pollyanna". The only thing I fear is that the push to end this stupid-ass occupation will stall because it's quiet-- because this is the time to say, "we've done all that we can, the Iraqis are now responsible for themselves". Instead, we'll hear from GOPers that we can't leave now, it's Shangri La and the Iraqi people need us to stay just a little while longer (or a few decades).

[Joe Fields]

13. I'm still very skeptical that we are achieving military success there.

And mind you, Baghdad is only a small part of Iraq.

[Vincardog]

16. Military action can never win and 'Illegal Occupation". Stop the looting and let the law deal

with the3 thieves. That is a good start.